PDA

View Full Version : low carb for gaining muscle?



sieb
10-19-2007, 03:40 AM
is this better for gaining muscle with someone who gains fat easily?

buffgrk
10-19-2007, 03:47 AM
you will still gain muscle aslong as you keep your protein intake high, but gains will be slower

struck
10-19-2007, 04:26 AM
Have 35% of your calories from carbs. You should be fine! No need to go low, or high. The average works best for me. I prefer a 35c 35p 30f usually :)

WannaBbig!
10-19-2007, 04:40 AM
Depends on how well your body tolerates carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are protein-sparing, having a large proportion of your diet made up of carbohydrates is excellent for retain/building lean muscle tissue.

However some individuals do not tolerate carbohydrates well (lethargy, water retention etc.) and benefit from a higher fat diet.

So long as you are in a calorie surplus (more calories in than out) you will gain weight. I suggest eating a high carbohydrate, moderate protein, low fat diet for now with a small calorie surplus (200-300 calories over maintenance) to see how well you tolerate the high carbohydrate intake.

LiL USMC BBer
10-19-2007, 04:42 AM
you will still gain muscle aslong as you keep your protein intake high, but gains will be slower

Correct.

Its been proven that carbs are
-Not a necessary macronutrient
-Not required for muscle growth
-Has no effect on protein synthesys PWO.


I would still consume some carbs from fruits/veggies. Doing this will allow the amino acids (protein) to do there thing!

If your a super-endomorph then carb cycling/low carbbin it will probably be your best bet to make the most lean gains as possible.

Make sure to make up for the calories by manipulating the macro's a bit (increase fat/protein!)

Ryan314
10-19-2007, 05:08 AM
If you gain fat easily from carbs, I would try carb cycling. It may work for you.

muruku
10-19-2007, 05:50 AM
check out the keto board!

johnnyhabitat
10-19-2007, 06:02 AM
Correct.

Its been proven that carbs are
-Not a necessary macronutrient
-Not required for muscle growth
-Has no effect on protein synthesys PWO.


I would still consume some carbs from fruits/veggies. Doing this will allow the amino acids (protein) to do there thing!

If your a super-endomorph then carb cycling/low carbbin it will probably be your best bet to make the most lean gains as possible.

Make sure to make up for the calories by manipulating the macro's a bit (increase fat/protein!)


Wtf?

Not nessesary for muscle growth? Maybe it isn't, but to gain muscle fast..it certainly is.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

rock_ten
10-19-2007, 06:05 AM
hmm.
Well, I've never seen or heard of anyone who has done well in strength/BBing on a constantly-low-carb diet. I'd be very interested and pleased to see such examples of it being useful, though.

Carb-cycling is pretty well established and I think is definately better than eating a steady stream of carbs all the time. Few people can get away with that, it seems. The way that works best for me is generally "no" carbs except p/w. Depending on how active I am outside of workouts I will eat more or less carbs outside of a p/w time - all from veg and some fruit.

Carbs at breakfast is a **** idea, I reckon. Eating them in the evening seems to be much better for me. I also believe it is beneficial to avoid high-fat/high-carb combos (or rather, periods of eating - could behalf a day or something), despite the concept being hated on quite a bit.

I used to think that p/w was by far the best time to do little carb-ups but now I'm not so sure. I ofton feel an urge for fatty, salty meaty tastes and so I go with that - butter, eggs, pork chops...
I used to crave carbs all the time but these days not very much.

I'll write more later, gtg.

Jippo
10-19-2007, 06:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReSpAwN DeMoN
Correct.

Its been proven that carbs are
-Not a necessary macronutrient
-Not required for muscle growth
-Has no effect on protein synthesys PWO.


I would still consume some carbs from fruits/veggies. Doing this will allow the amino acids (protein) to do there thing!

If your a super-endomorph then carb cycling/low carbbin it will probably be your best bet to make the most lean gains as possible.

Make sure to make up for the calories by manipulating the macro's a bit (increase fat/protein!)


Wtf?

Not nessesary for muscle growth? Maybe it isn't, but to gain muscle fast..it certainly is.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Personally i think you are absolutely wrong sure a zero carb diet over a long period of time probably isn't healthy but i have seen my best results over the past two years following a diet of 15% carbs which come only from green veg and quinoa 60% fat being 40% saturates 30% polys and 30% mono, and 25% protein.

I chose this kind of lifestyle because i am very sensitive to carbs just the thought of bread or pasta makes me feel queasy. I used to suffer from yeast infections, acne, sensitive irritated skin, an over abundance of mucous, constant headaches and feelings of nausea the list goes on.

By significantly lowering my carb intake i have never looked or felt so good since i was a kid, i'm not here to preach because people make their own choices but i strongly believe that high levels of carbs are the sole dietary cause of the majority of diseases that have popped up over the last 50-100 years in the west.
Like the guy said carbohydrates are not a necessary macronutrient to human life, our bodies and brains evolved on a diet of high fat and protein.

Just my .02 cents :)

muruku
10-19-2007, 06:36 AM
http://www.powerathletesmag.com/archives/Girevik/Second/interviewellis.htm

DJohnson
10-19-2007, 06:42 AM
Correct.

Its been proven that carbs are
-Not a necessary macronutrient
-Not required for muscle growth
-Has no effect on protein synthesys PWO.



What?

If you're gonna drop an atom bomb statement like that you gotta at least back it up!

young_squatter
10-19-2007, 06:47 AM
Correct.

Its been proven that carbs are
-Not a necessary macronutrient
-Not required for muscle growth
-Has no effect on protein synthesys PWO.


I would still consume some carbs from fruits/veggies. Doing this will allow the amino acids (protein) to do there thing!

If your a super-endomorph then carb cycling/low carbbin it will probably be your best bet to make the most lean gains as possible.

Make sure to make up for the calories by manipulating the macro's a bit (increase fat/protein!)

-Has no effect on protein synthesys PWO.

UMM Less time I checked protein combined with carbs PWO has a greater impact on protein synthesis then protein alone. Show me a study proving this not to be true.


To orgininl poster just time your carbs or cycle your carbs to keep fat gains down.

rob?
10-19-2007, 06:52 AM
Have 35% of your calories from carbs. You should be fine! No need to go low, or high. The average works best for me. I prefer a 35c 35p 30f usually :)

exactly! that's what my ratios usually are even though i dont really try to get them like that.. just happens.

Ellimist
10-19-2007, 07:16 AM
Carbs at breakfast is a **** idea, I reckon.

Why is that? I'm curious, because I'm on a low carb diet (going into week 5 starting Monday) and I've began and ended my day with a bowl of oatmeal.

BlueFenix13S
10-19-2007, 07:29 AM
Why is that? I'm curious, because I'm on a low carb diet (going into week 5 starting Monday) and I've began and ended my day with a bowl of oatmeal.

I was just going to ask the same thing. The 2 times I take big carb hits are breakfast and PWO.

rock_ten
10-19-2007, 09:21 AM
^ I'm going by personal experience, mainly. Although I know that Berardi atleast, and certainly others in forum conversations, suggest that "direct carbs" (like, not trace carbs from veg ****) be eaten only p/w.

http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do;jsessionid=942AD42116796A0DF6BC5CB512 2CC998.hydra?id=824347

Check that ^

I find carbs in the morning to be a great way to get fat quickly - others presumably don't, or I hope they'd try not having them at breakfast. It seems to put the brakes on fat burning for the whole day, while I'm active and could be burning fat. Whereas in the evening perhaps because all I'm going to do is sleep, which sees a high proportion of fats being used anyway because its so low-intensity, the carbs don't **** up fat burning so much?

Whatever - but I think anyone who finds carbs quite fattening should try just eating them p/w. Its not like you need carbs as "fuel" at breakfast or anything.

rock_ten
10-19-2007, 09:56 AM
Another issue that will come up eventually relates to low-carb diets being "natural" and in line with our evolutionary diets etc. Now, I'm a big fan of the idea of paleo eating and all that, and pretty much a hippy health-***, but we have to remember that gaining strength and muscle is not really a "natural" thing to be doing, and won't neccessarily require a "natural" diet to optimise it.

I can see it being quite likely that carbs in the diet are at least very useful in gaining muscle. I also believe carby diets to be a big problem in terms of other modern diseases and ****. Hopefully it is possible for a smart trainee to balance it right - realising that (if true) carbs are going to help them acheive their goals a whole lot faster than experimenting with very-unpopular fringe practices of no-carb eating, while still being very aware of the potential health gayness associated with a high-carb diet.

tinyman5000
10-19-2007, 10:13 AM
Correct.

Its been proven that carbs are
-Not a necessary macronutrient
-Not required for muscle growth
-Has no effect on protein synthesys PWO.


I would still consume some carbs from fruits/veggies. Doing this will allow the amino acids (protein) to do there thing!

If your a super-endomorph then carb cycling/low carbbin it will probably be your best bet to make the most lean gains as possible.

Make sure to make up for the calories by manipulating the macro's a bit (increase fat/protein!)


How is muscle glycogen maintained if you don't eat complex carbs from apples and stuff, i agree no one needs starches but i dont see how you can not be incredibly flat on this

gfundaro
10-19-2007, 11:34 AM
If you gain fat easily from carbs, I would try carb cycling. It may work for you.

Hai, how's yours going? I'm having my second hi day. My lifts have been fabulous!


What?

If you're gonna drop an atom bomb statement like that you gotta at least back it up!

Some amino acids elicit an insulogenic response to the same extent as white rice (I'd have to search for the article, but it was posted here a few weeks back, and the protein they used there was a type of fish). Plus the presence of amino acids may actually stimulate protein synthesis even without the presence of insulin. Whey is really insulogenic, and that's what most people take post WO anyway. I haven't bothered with dex postWO this week and I haven't noticed a difference at all. I can track down some articles if you want, I just saw one yesterday when I was doing some research for a class. :)

RU4A69
10-19-2007, 11:46 AM
is this better for gaining muscle with someone who gains fat easily?

Yes. Muscle is made of protein, not carbs.

RU4A69
10-19-2007, 11:48 AM
How is muscle glycogen maintained if you don't eat complex carbs from apples and stuff, i agree no one needs starches but i dont see how you can not be incredibly flat on this

The human body is not dependant on carbs for anything, not even glycogen replenishment.

The Solution
10-19-2007, 11:51 AM
people do keto diets for a reason.. but IMO carbs are essential around ur workouts and really give u good fuel to keep you going and helps in protein synthesis PWO

if u want to minimize carbs keep ur complex carbs around ur workouts Pre/Post and have the rest of ur carbs from fibrous veggies to minimize carbs.. make sure u utilize the rest of ur caloreis from fats and protein

RU4A69
10-19-2007, 11:54 AM
we have to remember that 9b]gaining strength and muscle is not really a "natural" thing to be doing[/b], and won't neccessarily require a "natural" diet to optimise it.


I don't know how the hell people can say this. The human body, even if you have **** genetics, can increase strength by 200-300% (or more, in many cases) with a halfway decent training program. Gaining 20-50lbs of muscle is a VERY common phenomenon when resistance training is added to the male human's lifestyle. The human body is a load-bearing machine. We are structurally designed to be strong, although we are NOT structurally designed to be FAST, especially for long periods of time. Please stop this "being strong and muscular is not natural" propaganda.

Ryan314
10-19-2007, 01:25 PM
Hai, how's yours going? I'm having my second hi day. My lifts have been fabulous!





Well, to be honest, I've lost alot of energy. I am feeling more sore than usual after my workouts and I am very tired. I don't know if this has to do with the cycle or that I have recently changed some supplements.

It's still early, I'll keep you posted :)

rock_ten
10-19-2007, 01:39 PM
I don't know how the hell people can say this. The human body, even if you have **** genetics, can increase strength by 200-300% (or more, in many cases) with a halfway decent training program. Gaining 20-50lbs of muscle is a VERY common phenomenon (1) when resistance training is added to the male human's lifestyle. The human body is a load-bearing machine. (2) We are structurally designed to be strong (3), although we are NOT structurally designed to be FAST, especially for long periods of time (4). Please stop this "being strong and muscular is not natural" propaganda.(5)

1) Yea it happens a lot. On a very-low-carb "natural" diet? I've never seen it happen. I'd love it to be possible, though.

2) Pretty meaningless

3,4) Fairly debatable. As far as I can see we're designed to be smart and that's about it. We suck ass at anything physical compared to other animals, including other primates.

5) Why on Earth would you call it propaganda?

----

We'll have to disagree on the issue of typical BB.com goals being "natural" human things to acheive or not. Its only a matter of terminology, anyway.

RU4A69 - you're clearly a strong low-carb proponent. Do you know any "success stories" from people who've eaten constantly-low-carb diets and gained good strength and muscle? We can reason about it all we like, and imo everything points towards it being a great idea - but theres a big problem in that afaik it just doesn't work.... PLEASE proove me wrong.

rock_ten
10-19-2007, 01:41 PM
Yes. Muscle is made of protein, not carbs.

Well muscle is more water than protein, so we just need to drink, right?

^ Doesn't make sense, dude. Muscle may be made largely of protein but that doesn't at all suggest that another macronutrient (carbs) isn't useful or even essential in its growth.

baarat
10-19-2007, 01:48 PM
Well muscle is more water than protein, so we just need to drink, right?

^ Doesn't make sense, dude. Muscle may be made largely of protein but that doesn't at all suggest that another macronutrient (carbs) isn't useful or even essential in its growth.Water is water, not muscle. ;)

rock_ten
10-19-2007, 01:50 PM
Water is water, not muscle. ;)

That doesn't take anything away from my point at all. Water is water, not muscle. Protein is protein, and not muscle. Its as stupid for me to say water is all you need to build muscle as it is for RU4A69 to suggest protein is all you need. Get it?

muruku
10-19-2007, 01:51 PM
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/9
very good read ^^

PopeGregorius
10-19-2007, 01:51 PM
That doesn't take anything away from my point at all. Water is water, not muscle. Protein is protein, and not muscle. Its as stupid for me to say water is all you need to build muscle as it is for RU4A69 to suggest protein is all you need.
Umm, muscle is protein. To be honest you sound like a 15yo.

rock_ten
10-19-2007, 01:55 PM
Umm, muscle is protein.

umm, muscle is all sorts of ****. Let's pretend it was just protein, though - how does that relate to the discussion about how to eat to promote its growth (specifically carbs' role)?

baarat
10-19-2007, 02:00 PM
That doesn't take anything away from my point at all. Water is water, not muscle. Protein is protein, and not muscle. Its as stupid for me to say water is all you need to build muscle as it is for RU4A69 to suggest protein is all you need. Get it?Oh, I got it. His point was that on a reduced carb diet he'll still build muscle. On a low protein diet, that of cource would lead to a much different outcome. The point being protein is essential, carbs are not.

gfundaro
10-19-2007, 02:00 PM
Well, to be honest, I've lost alot of energy. I am feeling more sore than usual after my workouts and I am very tired. I don't know if this has to do with the cycle or that I have recently changed some supplements.

It's still early, I'll keep you posted :)

Aw man, I'm sorry to hear that. I guess I was already adjusted to the no carb thing.




RU4A69 - you're clearly a strong low-carb proponent. Do you know any "success stories" from people who've eaten constantly-low-carb diets and gained good strength and muscle? We can reason about it all we like, and imo everything points towards it being a great idea - but theres a big problem in that afaik it just doesn't work.... PLEASE proove me wrong.

I did keto from March until August and lost 3.7% body fat and gained about 5 lbs LBM, and I was trying to cut. It's quite possible to gain muscle mass without carbohydrates.

If it's not PLEASE prove me wrong ;)

rock_ten
10-19-2007, 02:03 PM
I did keto from March until August and lost 3.7% body fat and gained about 5 lbs LBM, and I was trying to cut. It's quite possible to gain muscle mass without carbohydrates.

If it's not PLEASE prove me wrong ;)

Thanks for your report.

You may not believe it but when I said "please proove me wrong" I wasn't offering a challenge or suggesting that no one could - I was asking hopefully for some anecdotal evidence that its possible, because I like the idea and wish it could work.

Sibrek
10-19-2007, 02:04 PM
If only protein built muscle, then only fat would build fat, and we could eat 1000g protein per day.

That analogy has more than a few flaws in it, but you get my point.

gfundaro
10-19-2007, 03:07 PM
Thanks for your report.

You may not believe it but when I said "please proove me wrong" I wasn't offering a challenge or suggesting that no one could - I was asking hopefully for some anecdotal evidence that its possible, because I like the idea and wish it could work.

Ahhh...I guess real-life people aren't good enough...well I can send to to a website full of propaganda to support each view. I can send you an research article about the presence of amino acids stimulating protein synthesis.


Sibrek, that analogy can't be applied to the human body. Everything can be stored as fat, but not everything is used in muscle formation.

hobscrk777
10-19-2007, 03:27 PM
If only protein built muscle, then only fat would build fat, and we could eat 1000g protein per day.

That analogy has more than a few flaws in it, but you get my point.

Well, it has been shown that amino acids are used for synthesizing and maintaining muscle tissue, and that fat is the macronutrient most easily stored as adipose tissue.

Druluv75
10-19-2007, 03:36 PM
In theory, Building muscle could work from a hormonal point of view. First, a high fat / low carb diet stimulates Testosterone, and Growth Hormone, two big muscle building hormones. Muscles not only uses glycogen for energy, but has no problem using fatty acids to fuel workouts. When you Increase protein and fat with no carbs, this stimulates IGF-1 which mimics the effects of insulin, while not as potent as sugar stimulated insulin it gets the job done pretty well. All of the hormones I mentioned are fat liberating hormones that work best in a low carb or No Insulin environment. Some people can't not work out without carbs in their system, but for the lucky few who can, welcome to a powerful muscle building environment. Best of all, is that people who are very insulin resistant or very insulin sensitive (obese or fat around the waist body builders) can use a low carb approach. They will be able to build muscle while losing fat at the same time without over stimulating insulin production. They will also reap the health benefits of a low carb diet. :)

rock_ten
10-20-2007, 01:21 AM
Ahhh...I guess real-life people aren't good enough...well I can send to to a website full of propaganda to support each view. I can send you an research article about the presence of amino acids stimulating protein synthesis.

Despite me repeatedly saying that that's exactly what I WAS asking for, and thanking you for your contribution, you continue to misinterpret me!!!
I guess its because I argued against what RU4A69 said, and since he is in favour of low-carb **** it appears that I must be against it, right?

Maybe these quotes of myself will clarify things:


Well, I've never seen or heard of anyone who has done well in strength/BBing on a constantly-low-carb diet. I'd be very interested and pleased to see such examples of it being useful, though.


On a very-low-carb "natural" diet? I've never seen it happen. I'd love it to be possible, though.

...

RU4A69 - you're clearly a strong low-carb proponent. Do you know any "success stories" from people who've eaten constantly-low-carb diets and gained good strength and muscle? We can reason about it all we like, and imo everything points towards it being a great idea - but theres a big problem in that afaik it just doesn't work.... PLEASE proove me wrong.



Thanks for your report.

You may not believe it but when I said "please proove me wrong" I wasn't offering a challenge or suggesting that no one could - I was asking hopefully for some anecdotal evidence [LIKE YOU JUST GAVE] that its possible, because I like the idea and wish it could work.

rock_ten
10-20-2007, 01:22 AM
I can send to to a website full of propaganda to support each view.

Yea I'd like to see any links you have. But lets not keep calling it propaganda.

rock_ten
10-20-2007, 01:28 AM
In theory, Building muscle could work from a hormonal point of view. First, a high fat / low carb diet stimulates Testosterone, and Growth Hormone, two big muscle building hormones.

AFAIK fat in the diet only increases testosterone up to like it being 30% of calories or whatever it was. Not just "more fat = more test", anyway. So this benefit would only be apparent if the person was previously eating a rather low-fat diet.

Beansent
10-20-2007, 02:06 AM
They will be able to build muscle while losing fat at the same time without over stimulating insulin production. They will also reap the health benefits of a low carb diet. :)

I am an example of this. Check out my thread when I followed the Cut Diet for 2 months. After analysis, I found out that I had actually gained LBM and lost body fat, which was why the scale only showed a net loss of 3 lbs.

The Solution
10-20-2007, 05:18 AM
Aw man, I'm sorry to hear that. I guess I was already adjusted to the no carb thing.



I did keto from March until August and lost 3.7% body fat and gained about 5 lbs LBM, and I was trying to cut. It's quite possible to gain muscle mass without carbohydrates.

If it's not PLEASE prove me wrong ;)

at the end of my 100 lb cut.. i stayed on keto and raised back about 10 lbs and all of it was nearly LBM after about 6 months.. i still remained at 4-5% BF but just raised my fats and protein and kept complex's around my workout.. worked damn well

rock_ten
10-20-2007, 05:20 AM
at the end of my 100 lb cut.. i stayed on keto and raised back about 10 lbs and all of it was nearly LBM after about 6 months.. i still remained at 4-5% BF but just raised my fats and protein and kept complex's around my workout.. worked damn well

how much carbs were you eating ^?

niiick
10-20-2007, 05:30 AM
stop being afraid of carbs you pansies.

Jonny Sniper
10-20-2007, 05:38 AM
I can see it being quite likely that carbs in the diet are at least very useful in gaining muscle. I also believe carby diets to be a big problem in terms of other modern diseases and ****. Hopefully it is possible for a smart trainee to balance it right - realising that (if true) carbs are going to help them acheive their goals a whole lot faster than experimenting with very-unpopular fringe practices of no-carb eating, while still being very aware of the potential health gayness associated with a high-carb diet.

What the flying **** are you on about? Carbs giving you ****ing AIDS?

rock_ten
10-20-2007, 05:42 AM
What the flying **** are you on about? Carbs giving you ****ing AIDS?

No, not AIDS - I mean Western diseases, the diseases of modern lifestyles. **** like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and endless sub-clinical problems that everyone is miserable with.

Captain Sagara
10-20-2007, 05:53 AM
You gonna cut yourself short trying to gain a good amount of muscle on low carbs,only if you're juicing!!!

Jonny Sniper
10-20-2007, 06:05 AM
No, not AIDS - I mean Western diseases, the diseases of modern lifestyles. **** like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and endless sub-clinical problems that everyone is miserable with.

The only related disease there is diabetes. Cardiovascular diseases are caused by being generally unfit, smoking, and high intake of saturated fats. :)

hynox.rain
10-20-2007, 07:18 AM
people are going to argue about this till the cows come home. some do well on low carbs, yes? yes. some do poorly on low carbs, yes? yes.

for me, as they say, low carb = high ghey,
for others, as they say, low carb = all teh way!!

follow your body.

hynox.rain
10-20-2007, 07:21 AM
No, not AIDS - I mean Western diseases, the diseases of modern lifestyles. **** like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and endless sub-clinical problems that everyone is miserable with.

I don't know if we should be looking at any particular macro-nutrient as a sole contributor for these things. Instead, the increasing amount of processed food, and decreased activity levels. People say that humans weren't designed to eat carbs etc.. etc.. but the fact of the matter is that we've been doing it successfully for a long time.

we've been eating carbs for more than 50 - 100 years, which is the time when most of these problems have popped up. however our activity levels have dropped substantially, and our intake of processed foods (junk foods etc..) have sky rocketed too.

Don't go pointing the finger at my carbs now, they ain't done nothing wrong sir.

baarat
10-20-2007, 07:29 AM
The only related disease there is diabetes. Cardiovascular diseases are caused by being generally unfit, smoking, and high intake of saturated fats. :)Pardon? That's a little nieve.

The Solution
10-20-2007, 07:35 AM
I don't know if we should be looking at any particular macro-nutrient as a sole contributor for these things. Instead, the increasing amount of processed food, and decreased activity levels. People say that humans weren't designed to eat carbs etc.. etc.. but the fact of the matter is that we've been doing it successfully for a long time.

we've been eating carbs for more than 50 - 100 years, which is the time when most of these problems have popped up. however our activity levels have dropped substantially, and our intake of processed foods (junk foods etc..) have sky rocketed too.

Don't go pointing the finger at my carbs now, they ain't done nothing wrong sir.

Also put into consideration wherever u go mostly all the choices are loaded with sides of carbohydrates such as eating out.. and many people perfer carbohydrates becausee they are a lot less expensive comapred to meats and healthy fats in grocery stores and eating out..

poorer families are like yeah lets get a pizza.. lets go get some fast food which is typically invovling fries, white breads, buns.. etc etc

so you would have to say that price is a determinat on why people eat so many carbs.. cheaper

Jonny Sniper
10-20-2007, 07:49 AM
Pardon? That's a little nieve.

Pardon? I was listing some of the lifestyle choices that could lead to a CVD, of which carbs is not one.

rock_ten
10-20-2007, 07:50 AM
I don't know if we should be looking at any particular macro-nutrient as a sole contributor for these things.

I certainly didn't mean to do so.

rock_ten
10-20-2007, 07:55 AM
Pardon? I was listing some of the lifestyle choices that could lead to a CVD, of which carbs is not one.

But you think saturated fat is?

baarat
10-20-2007, 08:14 AM
Pardon? I was listing some of the lifestyle choices that could lead to a CVD, of which carbs is not one.Which is why I said what I said. Why would you think carbs don't contribute to CVD?

Here's something to read. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates.html

The Solution
10-20-2007, 08:20 AM
Which is why I said what I said. Why would you think carbs don't contribute to CVD?

Here's something to read. http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:vpb6DlOkFq4J:www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates.html+high+gi+carbs+and+heart+disease&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca

good read man.. im sitting here eating my PWO meal and that is a great article.. reps for you bro!!

gfundaro
10-20-2007, 08:27 AM
Despite me repeatedly saying that that's exactly what I WAS asking for, and thanking you for your contribution, you continue to misinterpret me!!!


It was just a misunderstanding :p Chill out.

Here's an anti-keto page:

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/cancer-nutritional-wisdom-dangers-of-the-atkins-diet.html

And here's a pro-keto page:

http://www.keto.org/summary.htm

Obviously both are biased. If you want some non-biased info on how ketosis--and basically all of your digestive functions--works, check out the sticky in my sig. :) It's purely science, biochem websites, and some studies. Once you understand how it works, you'll understand the real risks and who they apply to.

BlueFenix13S
10-20-2007, 08:34 AM
Umm, muscle is protein.

Actually, muscle is mostly water, protein is the building block of muscle.

For the OP, I think you would be fine on low carb, just make sure you have some re-feed days built in. What I'm going to be doing (starting Monday after my cheat today :) ), is a high fat, low carb diet with complex carbs only at breakfast and PWO, with a 1 day high carb, low fat re-feed during the weekend. It's a modified version of a Timed Carb diet, which has you eating carbs immediately pre- and post-WO. I just feel like junk if I don't have some carbs in the morning.

rock_ten
10-20-2007, 10:19 AM
What I'm going to be doing (starting Monday after my cheat today :) ), is a high fat, low carb diet with complex carbs only at breakfast and PWO, with a 1 day high carb, low fat re-feed during the weekend. It's a modified version of a Timed Carb diet, which has you eating carbs immediately pre- and post-WO. I just feel like junk if I don't have some carbs in the morning.

Its no way possible to categorise that as a low-carb diet. Carbs at breakfast and p/w? That's like, just a normal BBing diet. AND refeed days? What do you need to refeed for, anyway - you'll be eating carbs on every workout day.

A lot of not-very-low-carb diets are being discussed as low-carb, when they're really not at all. Or its "low carb except I eat carbs at breakfast and pre-workout, and post-workout, and then for one meal post-post-workout."

BlueFenix13S
10-20-2007, 02:37 PM
Its no way possible to categorise that as a low-carb diet. Carbs at breakfast and p/w? That's like, just a normal BBing diet. AND refeed days? What do you need to refeed for, anyway - you'll be eating carbs on every workout day.

A lot of not-very-low-carb diets are being discussed as low-carb, when they're really not at all. Or its "low carb except I eat carbs at breakfast and pre-workout, and post-workout, and then for one meal post-post-workout."

What I meant was with the exception of those times, I'll be following a low carb diet, protein+fat+veggies for 4 of my 6 meals. And the amount of carbs I will be getting will only be around 100-120g a day, so a weekend re-feed will put more glycogen into the muscles. That is why I said it's a modified timed carb diet, and mine is far from your last example.

rock_ten
10-21-2007, 12:47 AM
What I meant was with the exception of those times, I'll be following a low carb diet, protein+fat+veggies for 4 of my 6 meals. And the amount of carbs I will be getting will only be around 100-120g a day, so a weekend re-feed will put more glycogen into the muscles. That is why I said it's a modified timed carb diet, and mine is far from your last example.

Only eating carbs for two meals a day is nothing unusual. "Timed-carb dieting" is a strange concept imo because what on earth is the alternative - eating the same amount of carbs at every meal during the day? No one does that - everyone times their carbs to some extent.

120g of carbs per day.. that's not too high, I guess. If you're active in the day, anyway.

Yea my example was just an exageration (but a realistic one) of what people keep claiming as low-carb diets. Its like skipping breakfast and saying its IF.

Kung Bruno
10-21-2007, 02:58 AM
UMM Less time I checked protein combined with carbs PWO has a greater impact on protein synthesis then protein alone. Show me a study proving this not to be true.





The present study was designed to assess the impact of co-ingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined to an ample amount of protein intake on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis rates.

Ten healthy, fit men (20+/-0.3 y) were randomly assigned to 3 cross-over experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g.kg(-1).h(-1) protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g.kg(-1).h(-1) carbohydrate during a 6 h recovery period (PRO, PRO+LCHO, and PRO+HCHO, respectively).

Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-(13)C6]phenylalanine, L-[ring-(2)H2]tyrosine, and [6,6-(2)H2]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole-body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of post-exercise recovery.

Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO+HCHO compared to PRO+LCHO and PRO (18.4+/-2.9 vs. 3.7+/-0.5 and 1.5+/-0.2 U.6h.L(-1), respectively: P<0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (Ra) and disappearance (Rd) increased over time in PRO+HCHO and PRO+LCHO but not in PRO. Plasma glucose Ra and Rd were substantially greater in PRO+HCHO vs both PRO and PRO+LCHO (P<0.01).

Whole-body protein breakdown, synthesis and oxidation rates, as well as whole-body protein balance did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10+/-0.01, 0.10+/-0.01 and 0.11+/-0.01 %.h(-1) in the PRO, PRO+LCHO and PRO+HCHO experiments, respectively.

In conclusion, co-ingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate post-exercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.


Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Jul 3; Co-ingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.

rock_ten
10-21-2007, 03:02 AM
Kung Bruno - very interesting, thanks.

BlueFenix13S
10-21-2007, 06:44 AM
Only eating carbs for two meals a day is nothing unusual. "Timed-carb dieting" is a strange concept imo because what on earth is the alternative - eating the same amount of carbs at every meal during the day? No one does that - everyone times their carbs to some extent.


Not really. Most people eat carbs with every meal, and yes that is one alternative to TCD. The other is no carbs at any point.