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American Steak
04-25-2005, 11:16 PM
BBC | April 25, 2005

The US prison population has risen further, with one in 138 people now in jail, new official figures reveal. There are more than 2.1 million US citizens in jail - more than in any other country, the Bureau of Justice Statistics says.
RELATED:
Prison populations swell by nearly 900 inmates per week in 2004




The government says putting and keeping criminals in jail is working. Recent figures have shown violent crime and murder falling.

But critics say less severe ways of approaching crime are being ignored.

The figures show the prison population increased by an estimated 48,452 people - 2.3% - in the year to 30 June 2004.

It means the incarceration rate reached a record of 726 people per 100,000 residents.

The Justice Policy Institute, which advocates alternatives to prison, says it is the highest rate in the world - more than five times that in Britain, and 12 times that in Japan.

The prison population is swelling fastest in the state of Minnesota - up 13.2% over 12 months.

People from some social groups in the US are far more likely to end up in prison.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4481261.stm


It makes you wonder why the US in particular has the highest rate of Prisoners. It was an issue Michael Moore was looking into when he talked about how the US has the hands down highest rate of gun murders in the world.

powerman2000
04-25-2005, 11:26 PM
The US obviously believes in a prison system and it obviously works. What kind of dumd pc alternatives were being offered up? I'm and ex-cop and as far as I'm concerned our prison system will only take what the judges put into them and I feel they are way too lenient!

ILOVEBREASTS
04-25-2005, 11:32 PM
The US obviously believes in a prison system and it obviously works. What kind of dumd pc alternatives were being offered up? I'm and ex-cop and as far as I'm concerned our prison system will only take what the judges put into them and I feel they are way too lenient!

I agree I would like to see some more of these thugs locked up for longer. Maybe then we would have less gun murders and violent crime.

StoneJaw
04-25-2005, 11:33 PM
The reason we have so much prisoners is because other countries are smart enough to use execution as a means of justice...

Thus cutting down on prisoners

ILOVEBREASTS
04-25-2005, 11:35 PM
The reason we have so much prisoners is because other countries are smart enough to use execution as a means of justice...

Thus cutting down on prisoners

In many other countries punishment is far worse then jailtime. Harsh punishments will deter many criminals, not a slap on the wrist like so often the case here.

American Steak
04-26-2005, 01:19 AM
The US obviously believes in a prison system and it obviously works. What kind of dumd pc alternatives were being offered up? I'm and ex-cop and as far as I'm concerned our prison system will only take what the judges put into them and I feel they are way too lenient!


The issue is that there is something fundamentally wrong with society if our prison population keeps climbing beyond any other country. Why do we have the highest? There has to be something driving the cause of this.

Your average joe cop probably doesnt thing about this stuff. You just follow orders, and go around arresting kids for having a bag of pot.

powerman2000
04-26-2005, 01:29 AM
The issue is that there is something fundamentally wrong with society if our prison population keeps climbing beyond any other country. Why do we have the highest? There has to be something driving the cause of this.

Your average joe cop probably doesnt thing about this stuff. You just follow orders, and go around arresting kids for having a bag of pot.
I arrested anybody who was breaking the law.

Why does there need to be something wrong with our society just because we lock a lot of people up in prison. Maybe other countries just don't or can't afford to lock up all their criminals. If you are supposing that we do more crime in the US and therefore more time versus other nations then I think you are way off!

ILOVEBREASTS
04-26-2005, 01:41 AM
The issue is that there is something fundamentally wrong with society if our prison population keeps climbing beyond any other country. Why do we have the highest? There has to be something driving the cause of this.

Your average joe cop probably doesnt thing about this stuff. You just follow orders, and go around arresting kids for having a bag of pot.\

Somehow I doubt our jails are full of kids that had a bag of pot. Also is this stat an absolute total population or a per capita population, big difference.

*ShaGGs*
04-26-2005, 02:42 AM
I arrested anybody who was breaking the law.

Why does there need to be something wrong with our society just because we lock a lot of people up in prison. Maybe other countries just don't or can't afford to lock up all their criminals. If you are supposing that we do more crime in the US and therefore more time versus other nations then I think you are way off!

yeah alot of other countries just kill their criminals over small things like theft, if america did that i bet they'd have a less prision population. So pretty much the whole who has more inmates is geographical.

Diesel66
04-26-2005, 02:50 AM
It makes you wonder why the US in particular has the highest rate of Prisoners. It was an issue Michael Moore was looking into when he talked about how the US has the hands down highest rate of gun murders in the world.We do not have the highest rate of gun murders no matter how Moore wants to cook the books.

*ShaGGs*
04-26-2005, 02:59 AM
We do not have the highest rate of gun murders no matter how Moore wants to cook the books.

yeah im pretty sure north africa has america beat by a fair bit.

Diesel66
04-26-2005, 03:01 AM
yeah im pretty sure north africa has america beat by a fair bit.
Taiwan has a higher murder rate then the US.

Mexico, WHERE ALL FIREARMS ARE BANNED, has a much higher murder rate then the US.

American Steak
04-26-2005, 03:17 AM
I arrested anybody who was breaking the law.

Why does there need to be something wrong with our society just because we lock a lot of people up in prison. Maybe other countries just don't or can't afford to lock up all their criminals. If you are supposing that we do more crime in the US and therefore more time versus other nations then I think you are way off!



What about all those cops who break the law on a daily basis abusing steroids? :rolleyes:

I think what many people would want to know is the cause of this overwhelming increase in prisoner population.

American Steak
04-26-2005, 03:23 AM
Taiwan has a higher murder rate then the US.

Mexico, WHERE ALL FIREARMS ARE BANNED, has a much higher murder rate then the US.


Do you have any stats on that?

Person
04-26-2005, 03:30 AM
I definitely think there needs to be something done about victimless crimes, i.e. having pot and the like. Any violent crimes need much harsher punishments, along with theft in my opinion. I am just glad it is not like it is here in some European countries. Some you can get convicted for 1st degree murder and get less than a 20 year sentence! Here in Portugal, there are tons (probably hundreds each days) of robberies and violent muggings that are not reported. Honestly, every single guy I know here with the exception of the few who only take taxies or don't go out on the weekends have been robbed at least once, usually more. Even in NYC I never heard of this being close to the case.

powerman2000
04-26-2005, 03:50 AM
I definitely think there needs to be something done about victimless crimes, i.e. having pot and the like. Any violent crimes need much harsher punishments, along with theft in my opinion. I am just glad it is not like it is here in some European countries. Some you can get convicted for 1st degree murder and get less than a 20 year sentence! Here in Portugal, there are tons (probably hundreds each days) of robberies and violent muggings that are not reported. Honestly, every single guy I know here with the exception of the few who only take taxies or don't go out on the weekends have been robbed at least once, usually more. Even in NYC I never heard of this being close to the case.
No such thing as a victimless crime.

ol_ matey
04-26-2005, 03:55 AM
No such thing as a victimless crime.
Gambling? Prostitution? Recreational drug use? In moderation none of these has victims. No unwilling participants.

Diesel66
04-26-2005, 04:05 AM
Do you have any stats on that?
progun site
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/153988.stm
Some dangerous cities
Lisbon 9.7 per 100,000
Amsterdam 7.7


http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/reprint/27/2/214.pdf

I do not know how that 1st link got their numbers on Taiwan, but it appears to be false according to Taiwan's official site.

http://www.moi.gov.tw/stat/english/etopic/89criminal.htm
Taiwan murder rate 1.17





just throw this one in for the anti gunners
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95436&page=1





No such thing as a victimless crime.
The Blue laws (buying alcohol after a certain time on Sunday, working on Sunday, etc..) are victimless crimes. Gambling

powerman2000
04-26-2005, 04:09 AM
Gambling? Prostitution? Recreational drug use? In moderation none of these has victims. No unwilling participants.
So the spouse and children of a man who indulges in any or all of those vices to the point that they divorce and/or lose all their financial stability don't count as being victims?

Try thinking a little deeper about all the potential victims and not just in the traditional sense.

American Steak
04-26-2005, 04:15 AM
progun site
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/153988.stm
Some dangerous cities
Lisbon 9.7 per 100,000
Amsterdam 7.7


http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/reprint/27/2/214.pdf

I do not know how that 1st link got their numbers on Taiwan, but it appears to be false according to Taiwan's official site.

http://www.moi.gov.tw/stat/english/etopic/89criminal.htm
Taiwan murder rate 1.17





just throw this one in for the anti gunners
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95436&page=1





The Blue laws (buying alcohol after a certain time on Sunday, working on Sunday, etc..) are victimless crimes. Gambling



The first survey is from 99, with South Africa with the most. I think what the issue is, is that the US is highest amongst the 'civilized' world, not 3rd world countries.

powerman2000
04-26-2005, 04:16 AM
The Blue laws (buying alcohol after a certain time on Sunday, working on Sunday, etc..) are victimless crimes. Gambling
At the very least the state or local municipalities are then the victims, ie the tax payers. If someone gets arrested and causes taxpayer monies to be spent because of their offense then I, you, we are all victims. You mention gambling. What if a gambler ruins himself and has to go on welfare or starts to steal because of his habit. Those crimes can often lead to other crimes which all have victims in one way or another.

American Steak
04-26-2005, 04:18 AM
So the spouse and children of a man who indulges in any or all of those vices to the point that they divorce and/or lose all their financial stability don't count as being victims?

Try thinking a little deeper about all the potential victims and not just in the traditional sense.


One should question the real killers, when you consider that alcohol and cigarrettes are legal.

powerman2000
04-26-2005, 04:22 AM
One should question the real killers, when you consider that alcohol and cigarrettes are legal.
Believe me, that thought already crossed my mind.

Person
04-26-2005, 04:48 AM
The first survey is from 99, with South Africa with the most. I think what the issue is, is that the US is highest amongst the 'civilized' world, not 3rd world countries.

South Africa is third world?

Person
04-26-2005, 04:51 AM
At the very least the state or local municipalities are then the victims, ie the tax payers. If someone gets arrested and causes taxpayer monies to be spent because of their offense then I, you, we are all victims. You mention gambling. What if a gambler ruins himself and has to go on welfare or starts to steal because of his habit. Those crimes can often lead to other crimes which all have victims in one way or another.

He is not inherently violating anybody's rights. Taxpayers rights are being violated for having to pay for programs that are not really benefiting the society. They are victims by the tax system, not the gambler. What you are doing is mildly ridiculous as you are simply trying to broaden everything to mean victim. In reality, the people who view themselves as victims in this case are not at all.

The_Cleric
04-26-2005, 04:57 AM
So the spouse and children of a man who indulges in any or all of those vices to the point that they divorce and/or lose all their financial stability don't count as being victims?

Try thinking a little deeper about all the potential victims and not just in the traditional sense.

That is what family court is for.

Stinker
04-26-2005, 05:35 AM
The reason we have so much prisoners is because other countries are smart enough to use execution as a means of justice...

Thus cutting down on prisoners
The article mentions that Britain has a rate of incarceration 5 times less than what we have here. I'm pretty sure they do not have the death penalty there.


At the very least the state or local municipalities are then the victims, ie the tax payers. If someone gets arrested and causes taxpayer monies to be spent because of their offense then I, you, we are all victims.
In other words having blue laws creates a victim. If there were no blue laws then the tax payer wouldn't be paying a cent... Does that make the tax payer the victim of the the guy who buys alcohol on a sunday or does it make the tax payer the vitcim of unnecasary legislation?



There is no solution to crime, the prison system is just a band-aid. People here talk about incarceration like it solves something. Crimes will be commited as long as there are laws declaring things to be illegal. The prison system is not a solution, just a dumping ground for the problems that we don't know how to solve.

Hartski
04-26-2005, 06:08 AM
Mexico, WHERE ALL FIREARMS ARE BANNED, has a much higher murder rate then the US.


They stab and use razors alot, though.

Thudd
04-26-2005, 06:16 AM
I can take a pretty good guess at why it's increasing at such a rate.

I'm just guessing here but I'm pretty sure the stats will back me up in that the vast majority of prisoners are from poor socio-economic backgrounds. Or in simple terms, if you don't have to steal then you generally won't. You're getting more and more people who aren't learning respect and tolerence when they grow up (and antinormative behaviour is absolutely learned, the stats are unequivocable about this), are living in worse and worse financial straights, and getting less and less hope for the future. The gap between rich and poor IS widening, that again is not in dispute.

Now let's take a step aside for a moment. Why do we have prisons? We do NOT have prisons because we want to take revenge on prisoners, despite popular belief. Prison is not a vehicle for revenge. No, we decided to invent prisons because they represent what the average person fears the most - the removal of their liberty. In western societies, the most valuable punishment is deemed to be removal of liberty. Think about it and just put aside the stories of prison rape and brutality and terrible conditions. You've worked hard, saved and bought yourself a nice car, got yourself a nice girl, and you're about to leave on a nice holiday. What do you fear most in that situation? Not having the ability to enjoy what you were expecting to enjoy. *I* certainly do not want to lose my ability - and choice - to go for a walk in the park, a swim in the ocean, a night out with my friends, and so on. I think most of us would be the same. So for us, the fear of removal of liberty is a powerful deterrent.

Let's return to our low socio-economic brothers above. What have they got to lose? A ****ty house with a wife who screams at him for not being able to hold a job? A broken down old car being the only thing you can afford? The local hock shop being the closest you'll ever get to owning a decent TV? What fear does the removal of liberty have for you? Heck, for a lot of people it's probably an improvement; at least they'll have a roof over their heads and three square meals a day.

Put those things together and tell me you don't have at least part of the puzzle.

powerman2000
04-26-2005, 07:19 AM
There is no solution to crime, the prison system is just a band-aid. People here talk about incarceration like it solves something. Crimes will be commited as long as there are laws declaring things to be illegal. The prison system is not a solution, just a dumping ground for the problems that we don't know how to solve.It's more than a band aid when hardcore career criminals, murderes, rapists, and the like are locked up for life and thereby unable to hurt anyone else ever again! It also serves another little purpose called JUSTICE!

Hartski
04-26-2005, 07:30 AM
I think the whole socio-economic debate is a bunch of hooey. There are untold numbers of people that pulled themselves out of poverty to make great lives for themselves. The people who stay in poverty usually just don't want to work hard enough to get themselves out of it.

People blame all their problems on others, and don't take enough responsibility for themselves.
Everyone has access to free schooling through high school. If they don't study and get good grades, it's THEIR fault.
If they have a crappy job, they don't look for a better job, they sit there and complain.
Ect., Ect.

DanMc
04-26-2005, 10:36 AM
The reason we have so much prisoners is because other countries are smart enough to use execution as a means of justice...

Thus cutting down on prisoners

True but there is also conflicting info ..but those countries do not compare in size. When it come to places like Britain. Our system is pretty lame though a dead sentance basically means dead of old age.

Hartski
04-26-2005, 11:52 AM
Our system is pretty lame though a dead sentance basically means dead of old age.


Bullet to the brain stem would be so much more cost effective.

Woden
04-26-2005, 12:39 PM
It's more than a band aid when hardcore career criminals, murderes, rapists, and the like are locked up for life and thereby unable to hurt anyone else ever again! It also serves another little purpose called JUSTICE!

LOL, please. Justice is the last thing the Judicial System in this country is concerned with.

DanMc
04-26-2005, 01:28 PM
Bullet to the brain stem would be so much more cost effective.

At the bulk rate I by 45's it would be very cost effective... I'll have to check the going rate for a case.. LOL

Hartski
04-26-2005, 01:34 PM
At the bulk rate I by 45's it would be very cost effective... I'll have to check the going rate for a case.. LOL

I was thinking more along the lines of .22 hollowpoints. 500 rounds for like $10.

Plus, no mess.

sticklegs
04-26-2005, 01:37 PM
our jails are full of people on stupid drug charges, legalize drugs and you will lower crime rates and empty the jails.

M@chin@
04-26-2005, 01:41 PM
our jails are full of people on stupid drug charges, legalize drugs and you will lower crime rates and empty the jails.

The drug laws are a part of America's current "it's not my fault" mentality.

People shouldn't have to raise their children with the ability to make moral decisions that affect their health and life, nor should parents have to pay attention enough to tell that their child regularly gets high. We just need newer and stronger laws against everything we don't like and we'll be perfect.


Since the alternative is growing up and accepting that people have to make decision in their lives... I dont see those laws changing anytime soon.

In fact they grow every year.

WWE-TicK
04-26-2005, 01:57 PM
So the spouse and children of a man who indulges in any or all of those vices to the point that they divorce and/or lose all their financial stability don't count as being victims?


And the natural response to this is "what if he doesn't have a spouse/kids/family or friends who give a damn"?

M@chin@
04-26-2005, 02:19 PM
So the spouse and children of a man who indulges in any or all of those vices to the point that they divorce and/or lose all their financial stability don't count as being victims?

Try thinking a little deeper about all the potential victims and not just in the traditional sense.


Speaking of thinking of non traditional victims, our drug laws combined with our cultures obvious desire for drugs is victimizing poor and underdeveloped countries. We(as a society) have merely offshored the production of drugs and provide incredible amounts of funding to criminal oraganizations that terrorize and corrupt countrys that don't have the resources to push out these well armed thugs.

America has 5% of the worlds population but it buys about 75% of the worlds illicit drug production.

Would legalizing drugs cause problems in America? Yes, BUT they'd be OUR problems. Having them illegal just pushes our problems into jails and into other, more vunerable, countries.

Hartski
04-26-2005, 02:25 PM
Legalise drugs?? Hell NO! We'd have a nation of worthless idiots like this.

M@chin@
04-26-2005, 02:45 PM
Our legal system isn't designed to be able to enforce laws that don't have the active support of it's populace.

You may think saying "I hate drugs" is active support, but it's not. Active support is reporting and aiding prosecution of people who break the law.

People don't do that. (or they don't do that enough) Also, too many americans WANT these drugs.

Is it columbia's fault they're a poor nation that can't fight off criminal organizations that get billions from America? No it's not, but we've made it their problem. Our laws and our desires are out of sync and it's hurting others. That really bothers me. I like to think of myself and my country as a responsible entity.

Woden
04-26-2005, 02:51 PM
Legalise drugs?? Hell NO! We'd have a nation of worthless idiots like this.


Give me a break. We already have one of the most dangerous drugs legal, and you claim that legalizing other drugs is going to make us into a nation of hippies. Reaaaalll intelligent point. :rolleyes:

Mismeasure
04-26-2005, 08:05 PM
I think the whole socio-economic debate is a bunch of hooey. There are untold numbers of people that pulled themselves out of poverty to make great lives for themselves. The people who stay in poverty usually just don't want to work hard enough to get themselves out of it.

People blame all their problems on others, and don't take enough responsibility for themselves.
Everyone has access to free schooling through high school. If they don't study and get good grades, it's THEIR fault.
If they have a crappy job, they don't look for a better job, they sit there and complain.
Ect., Ect.
The reason you hear success stories is because these situations are not the norm. Saying that people stay people poor because they donít work had is ridiculous. Does it help you sleep at night believing that everyone has an equal shot in life? Because that is certainly not reality.
If you could spend some time with these people you would see that they have very few opportunities in life, some of the better opportunities involving crime.

Vegan
04-26-2005, 08:25 PM
Maybe we just need to start our own Australia...

Better yet, let's follow in the footsteps of Castro and simply send all of our criminals to a different country.

Mismeasure
04-26-2005, 08:26 PM
I agree I would like to see some more of these thugs locked up for longer. Maybe then we would have less gun murders and violent crime.
I donít see how harsher punishments will affect the crimes you speak of. Do you really think before a violent crime is committed the person will take a moment and contemplate the punishment they could receive. The people who commit these crimes could care less what happens to them.

powerman2000
04-26-2005, 10:24 PM
LOL, please. Justice is the last thing the Judicial System in this country is concerned with.
Then please tell me what they are concerned with since you seem to know so much about it?

powerman2000
04-26-2005, 10:27 PM
And the natural response to this is "what if he doesn't have a spouse/kids/family or friends who give a damn"?
Begging the question is never a very good rebuttal.

American Steak
04-26-2005, 10:52 PM
Then please tell me what they are concerned with since you seem to know so much about it?


Everyone doesnt think that the judiciary system is useless. Of course it is an essencial thing for a functioning society. Its the corruption and hypocracy that our system practices that have people questioning and disillusioned with it.

Hartski
04-27-2005, 05:24 AM
The reason you hear success stories is because these situations are not the norm. Saying that people stay people poor because they donít work had is ridiculous. Does it help you sleep at night believing that everyone has an equal shot in life? Because that is certainly not reality.
If you could spend some time with these people you would see that they have very few opportunities in life, some of the better opportunities involving crime.


Bull****. Everyone might not have the same opportunities, but everyone has some opportunities.

What makes you think I've never spent time with "these people" as you put it?
Who says I wasn't one of "those people"?

At one point in time, I was laid off from my construction job and was so far in debt, I didn't have power or water in my apartment for 2 months, and the only food I ate was what I could catch, trap, or kill.


Yet I managed to survive, and even start to dig myself out of that hole without turning to crime.

Woden
04-28-2005, 12:31 PM
Then please tell me what they are concerned with since you seem to know so much about it?

Reducing crime rates and looking snazzy.

Hartski
04-29-2005, 06:08 AM
Reducing crime rates and looking snazzy.

Looking snazzy is important these days. I can't stress this enough.