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farzamk
09-03-2007, 10:51 AM
It's finally here! Now I will present scientific proof against Islam and other logical proof against it.

As you all know Islam is a barbaric, fairytale, destructive religion. Allah who is the God of war who burns you for a mistake he made and Muhammad who was his messenger as the superman of sex who screwed a 9 year old pussy.

Killing innocent people because of their faiths and small bad decisions is what real islam is.

Muslims claim the Quran has modern science, but every verse has been proved wrong, but now they search to prove it right with twisting the meanings of verses.

Let the islamphobia begin!

supermonkey23
09-03-2007, 10:52 AM
...FAIL.

Sidenote: All religions are wrong.

farzamk
09-03-2007, 10:53 AM
Here's a post I made earlier:



Q. 72: 8
?And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
9.
And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him"


Q. 37: 6/10
?We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,
(For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,
(So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,
Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.



MOST IMPORTANT ONE:

Q. 67: 5
?And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.?




SK claims that jinn are able to travel at extremely fast speeds and that the lowest heaven is our universe. Now remember the Quran claims that jinn try to EAVESDROP on the angels and such which are in the higher layers of heavens... Now lets just say our universe is the lowest heaven, does this mean that jinn travel to the ENDS of our universe to climb a "ladder" onto the next layer? Noone knows where the end of our universe is, it may likely be in a place of nothing but darkness and no stars, so how are SHOOTING stars that WE see the end or "highest point" of our universe?

Plus stars are gigantic and material things, if jinn are invisible and they can't collide with us, how can the sun touch them? Plus if they are able to travel so fast, which should be at least 100-200 quadrillion times the speed of light if they want to reach the end of the universe, they should be able to easily dodge a shooting star. In fact when they travel that fast, time doesn't change for them, therefore it is impossible for a star to hit them in any way.




Here's another post:


Yes as weightaholic said, the stars are really spread out, remember it's the galaxies that are large groups of stars, if Jinn can live in a small place here on earth, they must be able to really control their speed and be able to deccelerate to dodge the stars.

Plus limits of the universe: 13.7 billion light years.

Jinn live one to few thousand years...

Do the math... Plus one must assume their life mission isn't to spy, so they must be travelling a lot faster, at that speed how can anything hit them? If God really wants to stop them,, why not manually say STOP, rather than to use stars?



And the final one:


. 67: 5
?And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.?


See the s? That's a plural. There isn't only one jinn trying to do this, in fact there are many, as based on both the Quran and hadiths, most jinns live a couple thousand years, some a little less, some a little more.


earth's age: 4.54 billion years old

Edge of the universe: 13.7 billion years old.

Universe is expanding by the speed of light every second, so the number above is getting bigger and bigger slowly.

13.7-4.54=9.16

Sun will explode in 3.5 billion years from now, therefore that is the end of time and according to the Quran, we will not live in another solar system or planet...

9.16+3.5= 12.66

Therefore even your little king of devils can't reach the end of the universe, and remember this is all assuming that jinn were made the moment the earth was made, but we all know that humans didn't exist until 4 BILLION YEARS after! So you can make that 12.66 more of a 8.5 billion years, and the universe getting bigger and bigger from the 13.7 billion light years. Plus this is only the "observational universe," there is likely million of times more space out there.

deeyala
09-03-2007, 10:54 AM
Finally!

farzamk
09-03-2007, 10:54 AM
All religions are wrong.

I know, just trying to stay on Islam for now...

farzamk
09-03-2007, 10:56 AM
Is the Quran Preserved?


The Quran makes this claim:

Verily, we have sent down the Reminder, and, verily, we will guard it. Q15:9

According to Muslim commentators like Ibn Kathir, this Reminder is the Quran since just a few verses before that we read in the same Surah:

But they say, ?O thou to whom the Reminder has been sent down! verily, thou art possessed.? Q15:6

Muslims say that, ?O thou to whom the reminder has been sent down,? refers to Muhammad and therefore the Reminder spoken about here must be the Quran. Muslims conclude that this is Allah?s promise that the Qur'an cannot be corrupted and is accurately preserved to this day.

Some Christian apologists make the argument that the Reminder refers to all of Allah?s messages including the one revealed in the Bible. Muslims usually reject this claim and say that Allah guards only the Quran. Taking into account everything that the Quran says about the Scriptures of the Jews and the Christians, one can make a solid argument that the Quran presupposes that the Jews and Christians possess indeed God?s authentic and uncorrupted revelation (see these articles). However, since Muslims often do not accept those arguments, the purpose of this paper is to show that their position leads to a set of logical problems. Thus, for argument?s sake I will go along with these Muslim claims, and explore where this interpretation will lead us when taken together with some other Muslim convictions.

In other places, the Quran makes the claim to be impeccable:

falsehood shall not come to it, from before it, nor from behind it - a revelation from the wise, the praiseworthy One. Q41:42

Do they not meditate on the Qur'ran? if it were from other than God they would find in it many a discrepancy. Q4:82

At the same time, Muslims believe that there are verses in the Quran which say that the previous Revelations have been corrupted:

O thou Apostle! let not those grieve thee who vie in misbelief; or those who say with their mouths 'We believe,' but their hearts do not believe; or of those who are Jews, listeners to a lie, - listeners to other people, but who come not to thee. They pervert the words from their places and say, ' If this is what ye are given, take it; but if ye are not given it, then beware!' but he whom God wishes to mislead, thou canst do nothing with God for him; these are those whose hearts God wishes not to purify, for them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the next is mighty woe, Q5:41; check also Q3:78, Q2:79, Q4:46 and Q5:13.

Still, the the Quran commands the Muslims to believe in the previous Revelations:

who believe in what is revealed to thee (Muhammad), and what was revealed before thee, and of the hereafter they are sure. Q2:4

The Apostle (Muhammad) believes in what is sent down to him from his Lord, and the believers (Muslims) all believe on God, and His angels, and His Books, and His apostles,- we make no difference between any of His apostles,- they say, 'We hear and obey, Thy pardon, O Lord! for to Thee our journey tends. Q2:285

Say (O Muslims), 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to thee, and what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord,- we will make no distinction between any of them,- and we are unto Him resigned. Q3:84

These previous Revelations include the following:

We did reveal the Torah (Tawrat), wherein is guidance and a light ... Q5:44

And already have we written in the Psalms (Zabur) after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.' Q21:105

Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel (Injil), containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. Q5:46

Let us summarize the claims that were presented so far:

The Quran is preserved.
God?s Revelations which preceded the Quran include the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel.
These Books make up a large portion of the Holy Bible.
The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are all the Word of Allah.
God's Word does not change.
The revelations that came before the Quran have become corrupted.
Although Muslims should believe that these previous Books are the genuine Revelations from God,
they have to trust only the Quran as the final revelation and the only one that is preserved.
We now have to deal with this logic:

The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel are all Allah?s Word.
The current Torah, Psalms and Gospel are corrupted.
The final word of Allah, the Quran is preserved.
1st Conclusion: Some of Allah?s Words are corrupted
2nd Conclusion: Some of Allah?s Words are preserved.

Based on the above generalizations we can construct these deductive arguments:

Major premise: Some of Allah?s Words are corrupted.
Minor premise: The Quran is Allah?s Word.
Conclusion: The Quran could be corrupted.

Or we could do it another way:

Major premise: Some of Allah?s Words are preserved.
Minor premise: The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are Allah?s Words.
Conclusion: The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel could be preserved.

The Main Problem

Since Allah allowed his previous Revelations to be corrupted by weak human people, this leads to one of the following assumptions about Allah:

Allah is a weak god; he could not protect his previous Revelations. He also gains more power and might throughout time, because he supposedly is now able to protect his last revelation, the Quran.
Allah does not care about people being misled by counterfeit revelations. And yet he will still punish individuals with hell fire because they follow a corrupted Message even though they may have not come to the realization that Allah had allowed it to be corrupted. That means Allah is unjust.
In light of the above, how can we trust that the Quran is preserved if these three Revelations are corrupted? How can a person trust that Allah did not fail to protect his so-called final revelation, the Quran, when he was too weak to prevent people from tampering with his previous Messages?

Maybe Allah needs to a send a fifth revelation? Perhaps he has already sent down this fifth book, and that is actually the revelation given to Baha?ullah the founder of the Baha?i faith?

More importantly, how do Muslims reconcile their position with Allah?s claim in the Quran that ?there is no changing the words of God??

Muslims, you have to make a decision and choose one of these alternatives:

The Quran is preserved and the earlier Revelations are corrupted. In that case, Allah is either weak or he is unjust. That is the only explanation for his preservation of the Quran and letting people corrupt his previous Revelations.
The Quran is corrupted like the other Revelations. Then you should either not read it since you do not read other corrupted Revelations, or maybe you should read these other corrupted Revelations just as you insist on reading the corrupted Quran.
The Quran is preserved, and the previous Revelations have also been preserved. That means then you should read these authentic Revelations (the Bible) for yourself.
The Quran is corrupted but the earlier Revelations are preserved. Obviously, you should then abandon the Quran and read the Bible.
Just a second, I?m not finished yet.

If you picked option number three, then you will be faced with another problem. The Quran contradicts these previous Revelations in many essential points. That means that the Quran is a false message which cannot be from God since God is not the author of confusion. He could not reveal a message that contradicts his previous Messages.

If you do not like these alternatives, then tell me:

What exactly do you think is wrong with my above observations and conclusions?

If you do not accept my premises and therefore reject my conclusions, then:

PROVE TO ME THAT THE QURAN IS PRESERVED.

farzamk
09-03-2007, 11:00 AM
Talking Ants in the Qur'?n?

A long time ago, I published a short article titled Qur'an difficulty: Ants cannot talk in the section discussing Contradictions in the Qur'an. Over the years there have been a couple of Muslim responses and these discussions are accessible from the original article.

Recently Shibli Zaman wrote a response that has apparently impressed many, both Muslims and non-Muslims, and the Bismikaallahuma team has decided to add to their site a slightly edited version of Zaman's article (Talking Ants in the Qur'?n?), and this article is presented as a rebuttal to the arguments outlined in my more than six years old article refered to above.

Since Zaman's response misrepresents my original arguments on various levels, my answer will address the presented claims in several categories:


Logical fallacies: straw man arguments, ad hominem attacks, the root fallacy etc.
Scientific facts and their relationship to the Qur'anic story
Exegetical issues, including the (mis)interpretation of the Qur'anic story as a miracle
Not everybody may be interested to know exactly why Zaman's article is not a valid rebuttal to my original article, or to investigate what exactly is known from scientific research about ant communication and about the relationship between ants and termites. In that case, feel free to skip the first two sections, and read only the third part. But nobody should miss out on the discussion about the meaning of the ant story found in Surah 27:18-19, and the implications of this story for the whole of the Qur'an.


Part 1: Logical Fallacies

It will shortly become obvious that Zaman's article does not address my original argument at all. At the end of this first part, everyone should be able to see that his reply does not qualify as a rebuttal. But what would the reader think of me if I were to go on claiming that Zaman has not even written a response, or worse, that Zaman is not able to write at all? I will come back to this odd "conclusion".

The article under consideration begins with these words:


Basically, the gist of the missionary claim is:

Why does the Qur'an say that ants talk (27:18-19)? Everyone knows that ants communicate by chemicals detected by scent and never sound! Is this not a scientific error in the Qur'an?
The above text explicitly links to my original article and claims that the quoted statement is the gist of (i.e. accurately represents) my argument. Shibli Zaman's original article does not explicitly identify the source of the claim he sets out to refute [it does not have the first line above, stating that "Basically, the gist of the missionary claim is:"]. However, Zaman talks specifically about "answer[ing] the missionaries' challenges" and placed this article in his section "Site Rebuttals: Answering Islam", and there is only one article on Answering Islam dedicated to the discussion of this issue. Thus it is, by implication, supposed to be a rebuttal to the above referenced article. Since the two versions of the article available at the sites NESSIA and Bismikaallahuma are basically identical, apart from this implicit vs. explicit identification of the opponent to be rebutted, the rest of this response holds for both versions.

Does the above "summary" accurately represent my argument? Not at all! The following are just a couple of sentences of what I had actually written:


... ants do communicate using smells, not modulation of sounds. ...
Even though basically all communication between ants is through chemical signals, there are, however, a few subspecies of ants which do use some sound communication. But of what kind and complexity is it?

Besides making these statements, I quoted from one of the standard reference books on ants, elaborating on the complexity of sounds found in the communication of ants, and I discussed why this is not sufficient to account for the kind of talk that the ant of the Qur'an supposedly uttered.

To anyone reading my argument carefully, it should have been clear that the main claim was not whether ants make any sounds at all, but whether the modulation of these sounds is sufficiently complex. I will explain this issue again in more detail in the next section regarding the scientific issues. The objective of this first section is only to point out how utterly inadequate the response was on the level of simple logic.


My claim: The sound of ants is too monotone and does therefore not convey sufficient meaning.
Zaman's straw man: Ants never communicate via sound.
Then comes the heavy punch, successfully knocking down his home-made straw man:
Here is some research proving there is at least one particular kind of ants that actually produce some sound!
Therefore, the argument of the missionary is proven wrong.

Clearly, my carefully formulated and more complex argument was butchered and misrepresented, and replaced by a very cheap straw man.

The editor of Bismikaallahuma is at least as guilty of this straw man argument as the original author of the article, since he requested permission to publish this article also on their site, and then added the explicit link to my article.

Let us assume, for argument's sake, that I had indeed said that the Qur'an is wrong because ants never make any sounds. After bringing to my attention the recent research by Robert Hickling and Richard Brown (published nearly four years after I had written my article), Shibli Zaman then gracefully accepts that we are all human and make mistakes, and even more, I am excused since I obviously could not have known the results of research conducted after the publication of my article, but he would suggest to me that I should correct what I have written, now that I know better. After all, the dialogue and discussion between Christians and Muslims has the goal to bring us both closer to the truth, and as we present all the pro and contra arguments, we will all grow in knowledge and understanding.

Is that what we see? Not at all. Based on this victory against these despicable Christian polemicists achieved by his superior scientific argument, the author has now all the justification to mock the missionary, labeling him ignorant, his argument sophomoric, and even calling into question his sincerity, i.e. the moral stature of his character:


This style of argument is quite sophomoric in that it is entirely based on someone who does not even have a rudimentary level understanding of zoology or entomology (I believe this is covered in 9th grade Biology in the USA). Its sadly typical of this genre of anti-Islamic quasi-polemicists. You seriously couldn't go to the library or even do a web search for information on acoustic communication by ants?? What does this say about your credibility as a genre collectively?
Is such a reaction appropriate? Even if Zaman could have shown a particular argument to be objectively wrong, is that a basis to dismiss or even insult all Christians who think for themselves and speak critically about the claims of Islam? The implied message of the last sentence is that nobody who is in the genre of people who critically evaluate Islam has any credibility. Thus, besides the straw man argument, we also are presented with an ad hominem attack. Was the taste of straw as the only ingredient too dull, so that the whole thing needed to be spiced up with insults?

Question: What does Zaman actually want to say with the expression "quasi-polemicist"? Usually "quasi-..." is one who wants to be perceived as ... but doesn't really qualify, i.e. a kind of "pretender-...". The prefix "quasi-" turns a positive term into a negative one. Since "polemicist" is usually a negative term, does that mean Zaman wanted to make a veiled compliment? Or was he just so excited that his terminology got messed up?

Note: Before I wrote this article, I actually invested a considerable number of hours in searching the internet (although the knowledge available via the World Wide Web was a lot smaller in 1996 than it is today), and I also consulted several biology and entomology text books at the university library. I did my homework before writing.

Questions: Given Zaman's exhortation to do careful research before publishing, is it really too much to expect that he at least reads the article he intends to rebut and makes a serious attempt to comprehend the argument presented there? Does Zaman think he can beat those ignorant Evangelical missionaries any time, even when blindfolded and with his hands tied behind his back, and, therefore, he doesn't need to take them or their arguments seriously? Certainly, there is no need for him to read their arguments before responding to them!? What does that tell us about Zaman's genre - whatever genre he wants his audience to believe him to belong to?

Note: The error that Zaman made is of considerable magnitude. It is quite appropriate to compare his blunder to the following fictitious argument already alluded to in the beginning:

farzamk
09-03-2007, 11:02 AM
Based on the above quotations from my original article, it is obvious that Zaman's reply did not address my argument, and as such it had little meaning and no relevance as a rebuttal to my article. I therefore claim he has not even written a response. There never was an article by Zaman, in fact, Zaman is not even able to write.
I would never argue that way, but the shift from my argument that "the sound of ants is too simple to account for the complex speech reported in the Qur'an" to Zaman's substitute claim that "ants never make any sound" is about on the same level as a shift from my conclusion that "the argument of Zaman's article is too simplistic to qualify as a response to the argument presented in my original article" (i.e. Zaman's article is not meaningful) to the ridiculous claim that "Mr. Zaman never communicates by writing".

If somebody who supposedly only made a wrong statement of scientific fact (whether ants make sounds or not) receives such an barrage of insults, imagine what response I would have received if I had published anything as off-base as Mr. Zaman did in his alleged rebuttal!

Zaman's ad hominem is immediately followed up with the next fallacy:


The critic fallaciously relied upon an English translation of the Qur'?n which no Muslim relies upon. Unlike the Christians' New Testament which has no Syriac or Aramaic original, nor even a Greek codex from the 1st century CE, the Qur'?n has always been in Arabic as it is today and this is the standard throughout the world. Critics and supporters alike agree that the Qur'?n was always Arabic (ignoring any neophytes who baselessly claim it was Syriac). Even orientalists with half a brain quote from the Arabic text.
This paragraph is nothing but ridicule and irrelevant diversion. Whether there exist original manuscripts of the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with the understanding and credibility of a passage in the Qur'an. Even if all of Christianity were a fraud, it would not add anything to this discussion, nor save the Qur'an from its errors. This paragraph is only an emotional argument designed to make Muslims "feel good".

Actually, this ridicule exhibits several further logical fallacies. First, it assumes that Jesus spoke (only) Aramaic or Syriac and therefore a Greek New Testament will not have the same authority as an Aramaic manuscript or could not even be divinely inspired. This is wrong for several reasons: Jesus spoke also Greek. However, Jesus did certainly not speak Arabic. If "words of Jesus" found in the Qur'an in Arabic can be divinely inspired according to Islamic understanding, even though they could at most be a translation or summary of what he actually said, then there exists no reason at all, why the words of Jesus in the Greek New Testament cannot be inspired or accurate.

Second, it is true that we do not have a complete Greek codex of the New Testament dating in the first century AD, but neither does there exist a complete Arabic codex of the Qur'an dating in the first century AH. No original manuscripts exist of New Testament or Qur'an, and for both of these scriptures we depend on copies. In the discipline of textual criticism the Qur'an has no advantage over the New Testament. The section on The Text of the Qur'an discusses these issues in great detail.

The only potentially relevant claim in the above paragraph, the first half of the first sentence, was not substantiated. Zaman claims that "The critic fallaciously relied upon an English translation of the Qur'?n", but he does not give any reason for this claim. My article was written in English and therefore quoted an English translation of the Qur'an. However, none of my arguments depended on peculiarities of the English translation, and Zaman has not presented any evidence that even one aspect of my arguments is contradicted by the Arabic original.

Zaman introduces further aspects (that these naml are female, winged, etc.) which he deduces from the Arabic original, but I never claimed that they were male or that they were without wings, since all these properties are irrelevant to the question whether ants are able to talk.

He also tries to appeal to the Arabic for the purpose of introducing termites into the discussion, which immediately leads him to commit yet another logical fallacy which is found in this statement:


First of all we have the word "naml" in Arabic which is a word for ants as well as termites in the Arabic language. Ants [sic!] are usually called in Arabic "an-Naml al-Abyad" meaning "the white ant".
[ Note: Zaman certainly meant to write: Termites are usually called ... "the white ant". ]

However, scientifically speaking, a "white ant" (termite) is as much an ant as a "seahorse" is a horse. In short, Zaman is committing a common linguistic mistake, the "root fallacy". One does not determine the meaning of a word by looking at its component parts. Although most termites are white, they are definitely not ants. Guinea pigs are not pigs, an adult "bush baby" is neither a bush nor a baby, but a kind of monkey living in Africa, and possessing certain characteristics that remind of kangaroos. The very unusual Aardvark (lit. earth pig), more commonly called the "ant bear", is neither a pig nor a bear, but an order of species all by itself. Quite similar to the "white ant" under discussion is the "red spider" which is not a spider but a small web-spinning mite (Tetranychus telarius) of pale red color. Many more such examples could be added, not only from the realm of animals, but also for inanimate objects or even abstract concepts. The already introduced "straw man", for example, is neither a man nor is it made of straw.

Although etymology is a subject Zaman loves to misapply, it is not the topic of this article. It would be inappropriate to devote too much space to this issue here. I have written another article on Shibli Zaman's Abuse of Etymology, providing a detailed discussion of a number of etymological blunders found in his publications.

The scientific relationship between ants and termites, and the question whether termites qualify as candidates for Surah 27:18-19 will be discussed at the end of the next section.

Related to Zaman's irrelevant diversion of introducing polemics about Bible manuscripts are the next two references to the Bible:


"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake." [Daniel 7:11]
A talking horn? The notion of an inanimate HORN talking is even more absurd than an ant talking! ...

If you want to take the offensive, be prepared for the defense. Nonetheless, I have tackled the subject of animals arguing with men verbally in the Bible here: ...

In the Chapter 22 of the Biblical Book of Numbers we have an event in which the Prophet Balaam argues verbally with his donkey. Thus, we would like to compare the Solomon perceiving the ants warning each other in S?rat an-Naml 27:18-19 with the story of Balaam's ass in the Biblical Book of Numbers.

Hopefully, this will be embarrassment enough for the Evangelical Missionaries to look into themselves and rectify the abysmal darkness in their hearts. Their intentions are sorely mired by hate, paranoia and xenophobia. They must ask themselves why they would find fault in the Qur'?n because it relates that Solomon perceived the communication of ants, whereas, their very own Bible has a Prophet arguing at length with a senseless ass. (Sources: [1], [2])

Apart from the emotional and inappropriate attack on the supposedly evil motivation of the missionaries which reveals more about the state of Zaman's heart than it does about ours, these statements are coming close to the "tu quoque" fallacy, trying to minimize one's own problem by pointing to the problems of the opponent that are claimed to be similar or even worse.

The Qur'an will have to stand on its own merits, or it will fall. An argument like this will obviously not impress an atheist, but only confirm to him that the Muslim has really nothing to say, if he has to appeal to the Bible as a crutch to hold up his book. An argument in defense of the Qur'an can only be valid if it is equally true for all people.

The below section on exegetical issues will show why both of Zaman's examples taken from the Bible are comparisons of the "apples and oranges" type and therefore not helping the case for the Qur'an even in the discussion with Christians.

A further logical fallacy found in Zaman's paper is that of hasty generalization. He writes:


So the question is: Do ants communicate acoustically?
... Not only do ants communicate by sound, but termites are specifically known to communicate by sound. Regarding ants, their acoustic communication has been thoroughly researched and documented in a study ...

Not only did they document ant sounds ... they recorded the sounds you can hear on the web ... Here are the actual .wav files you can listen to:

Stridulation Sounds of Black Fire Ants (Solenopsis richteri) in Different Situations

Although Zaman constantly talks about ants in general, he documents only sounds of one specific kind of ants. Generalizing in this way is not logically valid. This fallacy is, however, not detrimental to his argument in this case since Zaman would only need to find one species of ants that is able to talk the way it is reported in the Qur'an in order to make the story possible. There remains one problem: he chose the wrong species of ants as we will observe later.

We come to the last example in this first section on the logical problems in Zaman's polemic. After being informed about Sam Shamoun's article rebutting his exegetical abuse of the passage in Daniel, Zaman added these paragraphs to the article on his own web site:

supermonkey23
09-03-2007, 11:02 AM
I know, just trying to stay on Islam for now...

Oh...ok, gotcha. Continue, by all means. :)

farzamk
09-03-2007, 11:03 AM
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/horn.htm

Now, guys, how about tackling the subject which is "ants"? Remember? If you want to take the offensive, be prepared for the defense.

The patient will be rewarded (cf. Surah 2:153,249; 3:146; 8:46,66; 11:115, Ecclesiastes 7:8). The communication of ants and its implications for the Qur'an will be the topic of the second and third part in this article.

The above quoted ?follow-up? section, however, is yet another straw man argument. Zaman claims that Sam Shamoun's article was supposed to be a rebuttal to his article, and then scoffs at it for failing to deliver because it missed the topic, only discussing a passing remark but not interacting with any of his arguments on the acoustic communication of ants. Therefore, it is not a valid rebuttal.

Contrary to this claim, the first paragraph of that article states explicitly:


The team at Bismikaallahuma has written a "rebuttal" seeking to defend the Quranic account of Solomon speaking with ants. We will address their claims about the Quran in a future article, Lord Jesus willing. Here, we would like to expose Shibli Zaman?s dishonest use of the Holy Bible.
As before, let me make the straw man structure explicit by listing both claims:


Shamoun's claim: This article responds only to the abuse of the Biblical text in the book of Daniel. Zaman's discussion of the meaning of the ant story in the Qur'an and the scientific claims regarding the acoustic communication of ants will be responded to in a separate article to be published later.
Zaman's straw man: Answering Islam attempted to write a rebuttal to my article.
"Knock-out": They utterly failed, because the article does not address the acoustic communication of ants.

This article never pretended to be a rebuttal to Zaman's arguments regarding the Qur'an, neither his scientific nor his exegetical claims. Ridiculing the whole team of "Answering Islam" in general, or the author Sam Shamoun in particular for failing in what this article never set out to achieve, is a rather obvious straw man. Or did Zaman completely miss the point of that article because he did not pay any attention? Did he not carefully read this article just as he seemingly did not bother to read my original argument about the communication of ants? Then it would still be an effectual straw man, even though maybe not an intentional one. However, the misinterpretation of a passage in the Bible for polemical purposes is at least as worthy a topic for discussion as a supposedly wrong claim regarding a passage in the Qur'an.

Sam Shamoun's article on the "Horn of Daniel" did therefore not show our "inability to address the subject" but Zaman's inability to properly and fairly handle the Biblical text he selected, and our article achieved exactly what it set out to do.

One final comment: Observing the amazing number of logical fallacies which Zaman managed to include into his short article, it is somewhat ironic that Zaman twice applies the term "fallacious" to my argument, but fails to actually show where the fallacy is:


The critic fallaciously relied upon an English translation of the Qur'?n ...
The antagonist(s) typically make the fallacious assumption that ants do not communicate by sound.

The first statement was already discussed above. The second is, strictly speaking, a wrong use of the word "fallacious". Apart from the fact that we never made this claim, the sentence "ants do not communicate by sound" is a simple statement, and as such it could be true or false but not fallacious. Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary gives this definition of fallacious: "embodying or pertaining to a fallacy; illogical; fitted to deceive; misleading; delusive; as, fallacious arguments or reasoning." Since this statement does not contain any kind of logical step from premises to a conclusion, it cannot contain a logical fallacy or be fallacious.

I understand that charging somebody with using a "fallacious assumption" has a higher polemical value than the expression "wrong assumption", since it suggests that something is wrong with this person's thinking, not only with his information, so that this choice of words fits in well with the style of the rest of the article.

Note that I inserted the words "strictly speaking" in the above to avoid falling prey to the etymological fallacy myself. Given that "use determines meaning", and many people nowadays use the expression "fallacious assumption" as being synonymous with "false assumption", this expression can only be considered imprecise language.

farzamk
09-03-2007, 11:04 AM
Part 2: The Scientific Issues

The Quranic passage to be evaluated in this discussion states:


Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant said: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving. And (Solomon) smiled, laughing at her speech, and said: My Lord, ... (Surah 27:18-19a)
An obvious first question is whether this is a miracle, an entirely supernatural event, and therefore not subject to scientific evaluation. Zaman expresses this conviction twice in his article:


Firstly, have you ever heard of something called a "miracle" associated with something called a "prophet"? If Moses can part the Red Sea, Solomon hearing the communication of ants is nothing. ...
The fact is that these are miracles and you aren't supposed to try and "scientifically explain" them anyways.

I agree that it would be inappropriate to subject the supernatural to scientific scrutiny. There may be some supernatural elements in the narrative. Nevertheless, not ALL parts of the story can be exempted from scientific evaluation on that basis.

The third and most important section on exegetical issues will be dedicated to determine the correct interpretation of the passage. For this purpose, it will be essential to answer the question of the "genre" of this story, i.e. whether it must be considered a fable, an allegory, or a report of a historical event, whether we understand it as a natural or supernatural one.

However, a correct scientific understanding about ant communication will be relevant for the proper interpretation of the ant story in the Qur'an.

Two things need to be carefully distinguished when discussing communication of any species, the "how" and the "what", i.e.:


(a) the mode (how messages are sent and received)
(b) the complexity (what is communicated, the information content, the capability for thinking and expressing thoughts)
My main argument centers on the second topic, the possible complexity of ant communication, while the Muslim objector has exclusively focussed on the mode. Let us discuss these two aspects in turn.

A. The mode of ant communication

Many scientific insights about the mode of ant communication have already been reported and discussed in my first article, and nothing really new has been added to our knowledge since. I had summarized from a standard reference book, The Ants by Bert H?lldobler and Edward O. Wilson:


Chapter 7, pages 227-297 speak about communication. Page 228 gives a table of different signals in communication between ants. Of the 17 "messages" listed 14 are chemical, 2 are tactile, 1 is "chemical or tactile". In all the intensive studies of ants, "speech" (modulated sound of complex meaning) has never been observed.
Regarding those species of ants that use also acoustic signals, I had written and quoted:


Even though basically all communication between ants is through chemical signals, there are, however, a few subspecies of ants which do use some sound communication. But of what kind and complexity is it?

The use of vibrational signals is weakly developed in ants in comparison with communication by pheromones. ... Two forms of sound production have been identified., body rapping against the substratum and stridulation, the latter employing files and scrapers clearly evolved for a communicative purpose. ... [p. 255]
It has long been known, thanks to the experiments of ... that ants are nearly deaf to airborne vibrations but extremely sensitive to vibrations carried through the substratum ... [p. 257]

No evidence exists to rank the chirps of stidulation as anything more than simple unitary signals. In other words, ants do not "talk" by modulating sound through time. ... sounds ... do not appear to vary within species or within the repertory of one worker ant through time. ... stridulation in ants produces a monotonous series of chirps with limited meaning. [p. 257]

The signaling pattern is independent of the triggering stimulus. That is, the ants do not modify the drumming to identify the category of danger to the nest. [p. 256]

Though Zaman is working under the mistaken assumption that I denied ants any sound at all, what are those scientific facts that he presents to us?


Not only did they document ant sounds, here's the devestating blow to this missionary nonsense, they recorded the sounds YOU can hear on the web at the following URL:
http://home.olemiss.edu/~hickling/

Here are the actual wav files you can listen to:

Stridulation Sounds of Black Fire Ants (Solenopsis richteri) in Different Situations

Alarm signal generated by black fire ants when a microphone probe is inserted into their mound.
Normal movement sounds of a group of ants with occasional bursts of stridulation sound from a single ant.
Sounds of ants attacking a caterpillar with stridulation sound from a single ant.
Distress signals emitted by a single major worker with a caught antenna.

Now that absolutely ends the argument right there.

Wonderful! Zaman confirmed what we already knew: There are indeed a couple of unitary sounds produced by some ants, in this case, Black Fire Ants. The only new element is this: Using some sophisticated technical equipment, Hickling was able to record these sounds, and then placed them on the internet so that now everyone can listen to them.

Zaman was, however, not able to point to ant communcation that is any more complex than this. Whether there exist two or four or twenty such unitary stridulation signals, H?lldobler and Wilson's judgment still stands: "No evidence exists to rank the chirps of stidulation as anything more than simple unitary signals. In other words, ants do not ?talk? by modulating sound through time." Zaman's discovery that ants make noise can hardly be considered a death blow to my argument (cf. the discussion of complexity below).

I reject the ant story in the Qur'an as a historical event, and consider it merely a fable for several reasons. The scientific reason is the lack of complexity in ant communication, not the observations regarding the mode of their communication.

There is only one reason for me to talk also about the mode, and to contrast ant communication via sound versus ant communication by scent. Many Muslims make the Scientific Miracle of the Qur'an the proof for the divine origin of their scripture. The alleged detail and exactness of the Qur'an in scientific issues at a time when these things could not have been known yet, is supposedly the divine authentication that the Qur'an is indeed revelation from God. This has become one of the major Muslim arguments to call people to convert to Islam. Zaman himself also plays to that tune in many of his articles, and makes it the climax of this article as well.

Because of these ubiquitous claims, and knowing today that the main mode of communication between ants is by pheromones not sound, the hypothesis of the scientific exactness of the Qur'an is tested for the statements it makes about ants. Evaluating Surah 27:18 regarding its scientific content, we observe that there is nothing that goes beyond what is found in fables, certainly no indication of knowledge about the main mode of ant communication, even though the importance of scent for ants is already found in the Talmud, derived from merely human observation:


R. Simeon b. Halaftha (46b), dealt with many things including the hen[259] that lost its down, to disprove R. Judah. He made experiments to check the words of [King] Solomon concerning the ant who has no commander[260], and he found that the ant hates robbery. A grain fell off an ant, all other ants came and smelled it and did not take it, until its owner came to take the grain, and he was permitted to do so.
Footnotes: [259] Hullin 57 b. [260] Prov 6:6-7.
(Source, cf. the same story with additional context as found in Deuteronomy Rabbah 5,2)
A number of Muslims have argued that the quranic statement "one of the ants said" does not necessarily have to indicate communication by sound. I agree that the word qal in Arabic or say / speak in English is a very common one and may mean different things in different contexts: A father may speak to his son, last week the newspaper said that the crime rate has increased again, a behavior may even speak volumes, and florists attempt to persuade customers to buy their products with the slogan: Let flowers speak. Does this mean that because the same word is used, therefore flowers speak in exactly the same way as humans do? Certainly not. It is the context that determines the exact meaning of a word. What then is the Qur'anic understanding of the statement "one of the ants said, ..."? This will be discussed in the third part on exegetical issues.

I consider this very unlikely, but if the issue were only the mode of communication, then one could interpret Surah 27:18 with a lot of good will as "one of the ants communicated (in some unspecified way): O ye ants ..." But if we accept that the word is so very unspecific, then it also means that the Qur'an has certainly no miraculous scientific detail regarding the mode of ant communication.

farzamk
09-03-2007, 11:05 AM
B. The complexity of ant communication

What constitutes language? Babies can make noise (cry) from the minute they are born. Most mothers learn fast to distinguish different kinds of baby noises and can often discern whether a baby is hungry, or uncomfortable, or in pain. But as long as their baby only issues various kinds of "unitary cry signals" parents are not going to inform friends and relatives that the baby has begun to talk. Something more is needed.

The main issue in the pericope concerning Solomon and the ants is not that ants make noises but that they speak in sentences and that Solomon understands them. The noises that ants have been discovered to make are not a language - no entomologist is claiming that. Most animals make noises: cows go 'moo', cats purr, etc. Ants make noises too. However, what Zaman needs to show is that the semiotic (signaling) system used by ants has the ability to encode the phrase "O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving" (Surah 27:18). This would require the ants to have a language system with a structure capable of sentence construction. Hence Zaman's task is not to show that ants make noises - because from a semiotics point of view, if they had communicated using smell, it would still have been a communication event - but that ants have a language system that contains nouns and verbs, the ability to use anaphora, to encode imperatives, personal names, concepts etc. Recording a few ants making noises is an amusing diversion, but one that misses the whole point. From a linguistics point of view, Surah 27 does not hold water.

Let's be very specific regarding the amazing detail of information that is actually found in this one sentence uttered by the Qur'anic ant:


ya ayyuha'n namlu odkhuloo masakinakum la yahtimannakum sulaymanu wajunooduhu wahum la yash'uroon
O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving.

One can make at least these observations about sentence structure and information:


The verb odkhuloo (enter) is the imperative form of the verb dakhala.
The verb la yahtimannakum (crush) is in the indicative form and in the present/future tense.
The phrase wahum la yash'uroon (Pickthall: unperceiving) is a complete subordinate clause, literally translated: while they are not sensing (or: not paying attention), i.e. unintentionally.
Masakinakum (dwellings) is a noun that is used as object.
The nouns "Solomon" (singular) and "armies" (plural) are used as a combined subject to the verb "crush".
"his", a possessive pronoun, looks innocent enough, but see the below discussion and links regarding anaphora.
"you" is a personal pronoun used as an object.
"lest" - the ant can form conditional sentences, i.e. she can reason logically from certain conditions to certain conclusions.
The ant knows that a multitude of human beings is approaching, not just a large number of something, i.e. she is able to discern between a multitude of members of the human race as distinguished from a herd of elephants or buffaloes.
The ant knows that one person among the many is special, and even knows his name, Solomon, and can express this to the others. The ant knows that Solomon is not just special, but he is even the owner / commander of these armies since she uses the possessive pronoun "his". [As a side remark, but associated with this observation, we may have to ask how the ant got this particular information, as well as all the other details. Given that Solomon and his followers spoke, we presume, Hebrew, how did the ant know who the approaching king was and what his name was? Is there a class of ants whose job it was to learn Hebrew and translate the names of the local rulers into ant-speech? Quite a task for the secret service of the community of ants, given that ants are not only deaf to human sound but also blind.]
Junood (armies, or rather soldiers): The ant can discern and express that Solomon is on his way with armies, i.e. trained military units with weapons, not just any multitude of people.
unperceiving: The ant knows the difference between intentional and unintentional behavior, and knows that in the case of Solomon and his armies it would be an unintentional act to crush the ants on their path.
Let's have a closer look at the use of anaphora, a complex linguistic concept demanding the focussed attention of entire conferences for researchers in the field of computer linguistics and language processing. In our example, "his armies" would be anaphoric. In order to find who "his" is, we need to read the context. Personal pronouns are quite a sophisticated linguistic device. Are scraping stridulation sounds a language system this sophisticated? The issue is whether ants have a language capable of encoding complex, context-dependent meaning.

These observations should make it quite obvious that to utter a statement like "O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving," presupposes not only a developed language system to express this message, but first of all a high level of consciousness, the ability to distinguish, to define, to reflect and to reason. Speaking like this is only possible when a species has considerable thinking power. Basically, it needs something comparable to human intelligence. Does Zaman want to argue that this is found in ants?

That the ant speaks not only Arabic, but "Qur'anic", a language whose eloquence is beyond the capability of humans and jinn to imitate (see the section on The Miracle of the Qur'an) could be sufficiently explained by the observation that the author of the Qur'an translated the statement of the ant into his own language. It is not unusual that a translation is more eloquent than the original. The information content of this statement, however, constitutes an element of "irreducible complexity" in the speech of the ant. This is what we are concerned about.

I consider it possible that ants have some simple, chemical or acoustic, signal(s) communicating "danger" which prompts other ants to retreat into their dwellings. [Though Zaman has not even shown that, since his link only presents us with an "Alarm signal generated by black fire ants when a microphone probe is inserted into their mound", but tells us nothing about what these ants would do if they heard this signal while being outside of their mound.]

On the other hand, however, it does not need much research into entomology to come to the conclusion that the subordinate clause stating "lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving" is utterly impossible and removes this story from history and science. This belongs firmly into the realm of fables.

[Note: Whether this event should be considered a miracle, thus allowing it to be historical despite defying science, will be discussed below.]

To illustrate how complex the ant's message truly is, imagine you are given two drums, a small and a big one to be able to make two kinds of sounds. The ability to produce a higher and a lower sound, plus hitting the drums in a faster or a slower succession gives some variation which somewhat approximates what ants may be able to produce with stridulation.

Now think about how you would communicate to your human brothers or sisters who have no clue beforehand what you are about to say but should afterwards understand the complete information found in this sentence:


O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving.
You are only allowed to drum. Think about it before you read on.

This is not an easy task even though you and your listeners are endowed with human intelligence and both of you have an already existing human language. Obviously, investing some extra effort in preparation, you could first learn the Morse alphabet together and then use that. But this would only be a translation of the same human language with its complexity into a different mode. That is not the point. (And: Solomon and his armies would have crushed you all before you have learned even only two letters of the alphabet).

Therefore, to make this exercise a bit more realistic, we are going to amputate 99.9% of the brain of the drummer, shrinking it down to about the size of an ant. Now, try again.

farzamk
09-03-2007, 11:07 AM
Odds and Ends ...

It should be clear by now, that no species of insects has the necessary intelligence to produce a sentence like the one ascribed to the ant in the Qur'an. The scientific part of the argument could end here.

Nevertheless, it will be instructive to take a closer look at those two particular species proposed by Zaman as possible candidates to qualify as the "talking ants" encountered by king Solomon and his army.

1. Black Fire Ants

I assume that Zaman would agree that Solomon was the king of Israel and probably never marched with his army to South America to be able to cross the way of a colony of Black Fire Ants! The species Solenopsis richteri is indigenous to South America and has been imported to North America only in recent times where they have quickly become a major pest (cf. this article). [That is the reason intensive research is done on them now with the purpose to control them, including Dr. Hickling's research on acoustic communication among Black Fire Ants.] The sound bites so proudly presented in Zaman's article are all "Stridulation Sounds of Black Fire Ants (Solenopsis richteri) in Different Situations".

The Qur'an, however, does not make an abstract statement that "somewhere on this globe there exist some ants making noise", but narrates a very specific setting for the story under consideration. Zaman should at least have searched for a species of ants with acoustic communication that are indigenous to the Middle East to give Solomon a slight chance to actually meet these ants.

The blunders don't stop here. Just as Zaman hasn't cared to read and think much about my arguments, he seems not to have bothered to carefully read and think about the report of the research results of Hickling and Brown before quickly linking to the recorded ant noises and announce to the world his victory over the missionaries. There are a couple of interesting statements in their report which don't fit in well with the story of the Qur'an.

Communication always consists of sending and receiving. Zaman only saw that Black Fire Ants are sending some kind of sound, which was seemingly enough for him.

The following quotations are from the short paper on "Nearfield acoustic communication by ants" presented by Robert Hickling at the 1999 Imported Fire Ant Conference:


... Since ants are deaf to airborne sound on a human scale, it has been inferred that they communicate using vibrations through the soil substrate. However, from the structure of an ant's body and other evidence, the substrate transmission theory appears unlikely. A more likely explanation is that ants employ nearfield airborne sound. ...
... The nearfield is an acoustic transition zone surrounding a small source, the size of an ant, in which the characteristics of the sound change abruptly before it can propagate fully in the farfield. Usually an ant is a few millimeters in size and the surrounding nearfield is roughly 200 mm in diameter, which is large enough to contain a number of ants. ... This explains how ants can detect sound from other ants while, at the same time, being unaware of sound on a human scale. ... Since ants appear to be almost blind, the ability to locate a source purely by means of sound would obviously be useful.

If the above statements are true, and ants are (a) virtually blind and (b) deaf to sound that originates from a source more than 20 centimeters away, Muslims have not only the problem that ants do not have the necessary intelligence to think a thought as complex as the one found in Surah 27:18, nor do they have a communcation system complex enough to express such messages, but they would not even be able to detect Solomon and his armies in the first place.


How then did the ant find out it was a human army approaching her, and that it was Solomon heading the army? Even if she understood Hebrew, she would not have been able to hear them talk, so she could not have gained this knowledge through her hearing or her vision.

When making any argument, it is very important to make sure one understands all the details and implications of the argument, and the details and implications of the sources used to back the argument. Zaman has argued very carelessly.

Recommendation: To gain a deeper understanding of their research, it may be worth reading the following articles reporting about the discoveries of Hickling and Brown: "Close encounters" by Philip Ball (nature science update), and "When Ants Squeak" by Susan Milius (Science News Online).


2. Termites

Several observations are in order regarding Zaman's statement:


First of all we have the word "naml" in Arabic which is a word for ants as well as termites in the Arabic language. Ants are usually called in Arabic "an-Naml al-Abyad" meaning "the white ant".
First, the statement is wrong. It is the termites that are called "white ants". However, I assume that this was merely a typo.

Second, there is actually no need to make an appeal to the Arabic language for this claim. The same folkloristic terminology exists in English. In fact, searching for "white ants" on Google in May 2003 resulted in nearly 6,000 web pages containing this expression.

Third, when asking the "science questions", we find that ants and termites are rather different and classified as different categories of insects:


Termites ... are often called ?white ants? because the majority of them are white and small and live in large colonies much like ants. They are not actually closely related to the ants at all but are closely related to the Cockroaches. (Source: Gordon's Isoptera page)
Termites, popularly called "white ants," are neither ants nor even closely related to ants. In addition to a large number of structural differences between ants and termites, there is the important difference in life-history that ants hatch from the eggs as worm-like creatures and go through a pupal stage before becoming adults, while termites on hatching from the eggs look much like small adults (except that no newly hatched insect ever has wings), and they have no definite, apparently lifeless pupal stage in their life-history. In other words, ants have "complete metamorphosis" and termites have "incomplete metamorphosis." I suppose that there is no real objection to calling them "white ants," provided we remember that they are not ants and that winged ones are not white. (Source)

Termites are known also as white ants, a misnomer based on superficial similarities in the appearance and habits of these two insect groups. True ants belong to a more advanced insect order, the Hymenoptera, which includes also the bees and the wasps. Termites are relatively primitive; they have thick waists and soft bodies and undergo incomplete metamorphosis. ... In socially advanced species, three principal castes exist: the reproductives, the soldiers, and the workers. Both the reproductives and the soldiers occur in two or three distinguishable forms, each specialized for a role in the division of labor in the colony. All forms comprise individuals of both sexes, but only in the reproductives do the sexual organs undergo complete development. Among the reproductives are dark-colored males and females with fully developed wings and compound eyes. At maturity, they leave the parental nest in swarms. After the flight, they shed their wings and mate. A new colony is then established by a male and female who become primary reproductives, that is, the king and queen, whose sole occupation is the production of eggs. ... Most termite colonies have only one royal pair. Apart from the reproductives, all castes are sterile and wingless and have whitish bodies. (Source)

All ants belong to one group, know as a family, in this case the family Formicidae. Their nearest relatives are the various families of wasps, hornets and bees, and all these families together are classified in the Order Hymenoptera (membrane wings). There are sixty or seventy families in Order Hymenoptera in the world. Ants are often confused with termites (or "white ants"). Termites not only form a different family but belong to a completely different order (the Isoptera) and are therefore not related to ants. (Source)

In Afrikaans, termites are rysmeere (literally, rice ants); sometimes the insects are called white ants. Termites are not ants, however: their ancestors are social cockroaches, not the wasps from which ants descend. (Source)

The systematic approach to naming organisms, called taxonomy, was developed by Carl Linneaus, who lived in the 1700s. He developed the system whereby every known living creature is assigned to a kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, and species. (Source)
Insects are one class within the Animal kingdom; the class Insecta is further divided into orders (31 orders are currently known). As our discussion is about ants and termites, let us give the taxonomy of one species of termites, e.g. Macrotermes bellicosus, and one species of ants, the Black Fire Ant specifically refered to in Zaman's article.


Classification Black Fire Ant Macrotermes bellicosus
Kingdom Animalia Animalia
Phylum Arthropoda Arthropoda
Class Insecta Insecta
Subclass Pterygota Pterygota
Order Hymenoptera Isoptera
Suborder Apocrita Fontanella
Subdivision Aculeata Longiprocta
Superfamily Formicoidea Termitoidea
Family Formicidae Termitidae
Subfamily Myrmicinae Macrotermitinae
Genus Solenopis Macrotermes
Species richteri bellicosus

Most webpages about insects do not give a full taxonomy tree, so the above information was pieced together from various webpages (e.g. *, *, *). No guarantee is given for completeness. There may even be found classifications with further subdivisions. Sometimes different names are employed as well.

farzamk
09-03-2007, 11:09 AM
Ants Cannot Talk



At length, when they came to a valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which Thou has bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by They Grace to the ranks of Thy Righteous Servants."
-- Sura An-Naml [The Ant] (27):18-19

But then there are these Amazing Facts About Ants that in contradiction to the Qur'an, ants do communicate using smells, not modulation of sounds. Solomon could not have heard any talk since ants do not produce any.

Additionally, to imagine that ants communicate such sophisticated information as the Qur'an claims seems rather to belong into the land of fairy tales than science (e.g. an ant being able to distinguish between Solomon and a soldier).

Even though basically all communication between ants is through chemical signals, there are, however, a few subspecies of ants which do use some sound communication. But of what kind and complexity is it?

The use of vibrational signals is weakly developed in ants in comparison with communication by pheromones. ... Two forms of sound production have been identified., body rapping against the substratum and stridulation, the latter employing files and scrapers clearly evolved for a communicative purpose. ... [p. 255]
It has long been known, thanks to the experiments of ... that ants are nearly deaf to airborne vibrations but extremely sensitive to vibrations carried through the substratum ... [p. 257]

No evidence exists to rank the chirps of stidulation as anything more than simple unitary signals. In other words, ants do not "talk" by modulating sound through time. ... sounds ... do not appear to vary within species or within the repertory of one worker ant through time. ... stridulation in ants produces a monotonous series of chirps with limited meaning. [p. 257]

The signaling pattern is independent of the triggering stimulus. That is, the ants do not modify the drumming to identify the category of danger to the nest. [p. 256]

All the above is taken from:

Bert H?lldobler and Edward O. Wilson
The Ants
Cambridge, Mass., Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1990. xii, 732 p.,
ISBN 0674040759, Library Call Number: QL568 .F7 H57 1990

Chapter 7, pages 227-297 speak about communication. Page 228 gives a table of different signals in communication between ants. Of the 17 "messages" listed 14 are chemical, 2 are tactile, 1 is "chemical or tactile". In all the intensive studies of ants, "speech" (modulated sound of complex meaning) has never been observed.

When a live ant is marked with the chemical [one that develops in dead ants], i.e. sending the message that this ant is dead, the struggling ant is nevertheless taken by the others and carried out to the rubbish dump. Chemicals take the precedence over anything else. Surely no intelligent speech communication as claimed in this Qur'an passage. Action is blind reaction to the chemical message [pheromones]. (See From Gaia to selfish genes : selected writings in the life sciences, edited by Connie Barlow, Cambridge, Mass., MIT Press, 1991, 273 p, the chapter "From ants to anthropology" by E. O. Wilson, page 153-154.)

A recommendation I got: The great Harvard biologist Edward O. Wilson has spent his life studying the captivating ants. See your local bookstore for his several works available on his studies of ants. If you live near a Barnes and Noble bookstore, they stock his books.

supermonkey23
09-03-2007, 11:24 AM
Anyone watch Zeitgeist? Part 1 basically disproves religion.

jackal337
09-03-2007, 11:51 AM
Anyone watch Zeitgeist? Part 1 basically disproves religion.

rofl, no it doesn't.

JAGERBOY
09-03-2007, 11:58 AM
Oh hai guyss! In before the ban/lock!

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 11:59 AM
We get it...you hate Islam, you don't believe in it. You're obviously not changing our minds about it so go away.

JAGERBOY
09-03-2007, 12:08 PM
We get it...you hate Islam, you don't believe in it. You're obviously not changing our minds about it so go away.

Do you wear that mask while you work out?

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 12:10 PM
Do you wear that mask while you work out?

I was joking around in that picture. I usually just wear the headscarf. I wear it when I'm working out at the gym. At home it's a workout in shorts and a t-shirt.

JAGERBOY
09-03-2007, 12:11 PM
I was joking around in that picture. I usually just wear the headscarf. I wear it when I'm working out at the gym. At home it's a workout in shorts and a t-shirt.

Juicy shorts?

wontquitever
09-03-2007, 12:12 PM
how does the OP have so many reps? who been repping this kid.

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 12:15 PM
Juicy shorts?
Whatever shorts I grab. No one sees it but God.

how does the OP have so many reps? who been repping this kid.

Probably other athiests and anti-Islam people.

JAGERBOY
09-03-2007, 12:17 PM
Whatever shorts I grab. No one sees it but God.
Interesting, wanna go out sometime?

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 12:18 PM
Interesting, wanna go out sometime?

Sorry, I'm engaged(almost).

JAGERBOY
09-03-2007, 12:18 PM
Sorry, I'm engaged(almost).

How can you be "almost" engaged? Is he a Muslim?

okasha
09-03-2007, 12:19 PM
wow fazamk you ***got.

no one is gonna answer all that spam

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 12:20 PM
How can you be "almost" engaged? Is he a Muslim?

Yes, and we are speaking about marraige, but are not officially engaged yet.

JAGERBOY
09-03-2007, 12:23 PM
Yes, and we are speaking about marraige, but are not officially engaged yet.

Well good luck.

_AdaM_
09-03-2007, 12:28 PM
In

deeyala
09-03-2007, 01:20 PM
Yes, and we are speaking about marraige, but are not officially engaged yet.

:D awesome news!
May God bless both of you and grant you happiness in this life and the next, inshallah.

*Big e-sisterly hug

Now I need you to fill me in on the whole thing :D (yes, gossip)

ll ReNeGaDe ll
09-03-2007, 01:44 PM
Lol @ Jagerboy flirting with the girl in the Hijab.

Rambo26
09-03-2007, 02:02 PM
in for the anti-islam

Leper Messiah
09-03-2007, 02:05 PM
in b4 SK

Uninspired123
09-03-2007, 02:29 PM
what's up with all the Jizzlam threads?

SteR-
09-03-2007, 02:52 PM
in b4 SK

SK won't waste his time here, he's already disproved all the OP's claims in the Islam thread

on a side note, has anyone seen the simpsons movie? I'm debating whether to go watch it

/yawn

okasha
09-03-2007, 02:58 PM
SK won't waste his time here, he's already disproved all the OP's claims in the Islam thread

on a side note, has anyone seen the simpsons movie? I'm debating whether to go watch it

/yawn

I've seen it, kind of sucked IMO.

SteR-
09-03-2007, 03:10 PM
i hear it's like 2-3 episodes stuck together.. sounds like a bit of a let down :(

okasha
09-03-2007, 03:14 PM
i hear it's like 2-3 episodes stuck together.. sounds like a bit of a let down :(

I do'nt this it's 2-3 episodes stuck together, I remember it was a whole movie about some weird glass prison taking over springfield.......

KINGJAMES23
09-03-2007, 03:31 PM
you need to add like a #74 to the threadtitle. I'm beginning to think you were molested by some homo Sheik when you were younger cause you really seem to have an issue with Islam

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 03:47 PM
:D awesome news!
May God bless both of you and grant you happiness in this life and the next, inshallah.

*Big e-sisterly hug

Now I need you to fill me in on the whole thing :D (yes, gossip)
I'll pm you later ;)

SK won't waste his time here, he's already disproved all the OP's claims in the Islam thread

on a side note, has anyone seen the simpsons movie? I'm debating whether to go watch it

/yawn
I saw it, there were some funny parts and some drug out parts, some of the usual jokes

you need to add like a #74 to the threadtitle. I'm beginning to think you were molested by some homo Sheik when you were younger cause you really seem to have an issue with Islam
LMAO

TricepsNGirls
09-03-2007, 03:49 PM
Religious fanaticism has reduced the middle east from its former, Mesopotamian glory into a huge ****hole. If anything, Islam the most detrimental of the abrahamic religions.

Fixing corruption is one thing. Fixing corruption laced into religion is another. One can only hope something miraculous will happen for the peoples of the middle east once their oil reserves run out. Conflicts will only worsen with their inevitable economic downturn. They need exposure to the world's multiculturalism and scientific literacy, not religious fundamentalism.

EOY
09-03-2007, 04:55 PM
[copy/paste]http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm[/copy/paste]

kthnxbye


Oh, and what's the point of copy/pasting an entire website's material? Wouldn't posting the link and asking everyone to read through the website be the more efficient thing to do? And are you aware of the bb.com tradition that is called the "Collin"?

EOY
09-03-2007, 04:58 PM
Interesting, wanna go out sometime?

*Cocks shotgun*


Sorry, I'm engaged(almost).

Congratulations! May God make it easy for you both and sustain your marriage :).

user67987300011654
09-03-2007, 05:00 PM
does this dude seriously think someone will read the stupid posts he makes that are about 12 pages long

dude you are a failure big time

FAIL FAIL FAIL

timbo81
09-03-2007, 05:00 PM
I would support a fatwa against this guy, his threads are that annoying and repititious.

potatoe
09-03-2007, 05:04 PM
In after teh failz.

JAGERBOY
09-03-2007, 05:46 PM
*Cocks shotgun*:confused:

Uninspired123
09-03-2007, 05:56 PM
:confused:

he's gonna jihad your ass man, in Jizzlam's name

deeyala
09-03-2007, 07:11 PM
on a side note, has anyone seen the simpsons movie? I'm debating whether to go watch it

/yawn

I absolutely love the little yellow fellows, but I am afraid the movie was a bit of a disappointment. The funny parts were hilarious, but there were very little funny parts to start with. :o


:confused:
Now you didn't expect to get away with it, did you? :D


I saw it, there were some funny parts and some drug out parts, some of the usual jokes
There was also this other thread where he tried teaching Arabs Arabic and another where he was trying to prove that second-hand smoking causes no "physcial" harm.


I see an epic thread -potential in here :cool:

_AdaM_
09-03-2007, 07:44 PM
on a side note, has anyone seen the simpsons movie? I'm debating whether to go watch it



It was a cool movie. I've seen it but I think its a DVD worthy, dont waste your money on that movie, watch something else and wait for the dvd version. On the other hand, you can DAOLNWOD* it :D

*Must be read backwards

There's a funny line in it by that Arnie type of guy. "I was elected to lead, not to read" :D

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 09:25 PM
*Cocks shotgun*



Congratulations! May God make it easy for you both and sustain your marriage :).
Thanks :o

:confused:


he's gonna jihad your ass man, in Jizzlam's name

He's just protecting the sisters...

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 09:41 PM
I absolutely love the little yellow fellows, but I am afraid the movie was a bit of a disappointment. The funny parts were hilarious, but there were very little funny parts to start with. :o


Now you didn't expect to get away with it, did you? :D


There was also this other thread where he tried teaching Arabs Arabic and another where he was trying to prove that second-hand smoking causes no "physcial" harm.


I see an epic thread -potential in here :cool:

LOL, it's funny that he thinks he knows Arabic more than the Arabs.
I love how we've turned this around, it's becoming the official Muslim chat :cool:

EOY
09-03-2007, 09:48 PM
Finally, an anti-Islam thread!

What's up Islam peeps?

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 09:50 PM
Finally, an anti-Islam thread!

What's up Islam peeps?

Salam,
Went to the masjid for 2 prayers today and I'm staying up for a little bit :cool:

EOY
09-03-2007, 09:53 PM
Salam,
Went to the masjid for 2 prayers today and I'm staying up for a little bit :cool:

Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh,

Jazake Allahu khairan. I stayed home for the entire day. About to do some homework..eventually (yes chronic procrastinator).

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 09:55 PM
Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh,

Jazake Allahu khairan. I stayed home for the entire day. About to do some homework..eventually (yes chronic procrastinator).

Aren't we all chronic procrastinators? I finished mine about an hour ago, still have stuff to do for the online course I'm doing...should be easy enough(assignment: Discuss the pillars of Islam)

potatoe
09-03-2007, 09:56 PM
1st Page!!!

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 09:57 PM
1st Page!!!

fail

potatoe
09-03-2007, 09:58 PM
fail

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 10:00 PM
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

eotatop yadot uoy era woh

TricepsNGirls
09-03-2007, 10:01 PM
Religious fanaticism has reduced the middle east from its former, Mesopotamian glory into a huge ****hole. If anything, Islam the most detrimental of the abrahamic religions.

Fixing corruption is one thing. Fixing corruption laced into religion is another. One can only hope something miraculous will happen for the peoples of the middle east once their oil reserves run out. Conflicts will only worsen with their inevitable economic downturn. They need exposure to the world's multiculturalism and scientific literacy, not religious fundamentalism.

Someone respond to this before my chi gets disrupted and I decide to send over a battalion of laughing Buddhas via JetBlue.

It is my strong belief that Africa and the Middle East can easily become prosperous, developed regions if not for all the economic exploitation and radical religiosity. I would appreciate a serious, reasoned response.

EOY
09-03-2007, 10:03 PM
Aren't we all chronic procrastinators? I finished mine about an hour ago, still have stuff to do for the online course I'm doing...should be easy enough(assignment: Discuss the pillars of Islam)

Nice. What are you majoring in?

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 10:04 PM
Nice. What are you majoring in?

Journalism major, minor in Middle Eastern history.

EOY
09-03-2007, 10:05 PM
Someone respond to this before my chi gets disrupted and I decide to send over a battalion of laughing Buddhas via JetBlue.

It is my strong belief that Africa and the Middle East can easily become prosperous, developed regions if not for all the economic exploitation and radical religiosity. I would appreciate a serious, reasoned response.

Economic exploitation, yes, but radical religiosity doesn't factor into the equation because all in the Middle East are secular (save a few) anyway.

potatoe
09-03-2007, 10:06 PM
eotatop yadot uoy era woh

I don't get your Arabic talk. :/














































:D

EOY
09-03-2007, 10:06 PM
Journalism major, minor in Middle Eastern history.

I ISLAM what you did there. May God grant you success.

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 10:07 PM
I don't get your Arabic talk. :/

:D

Read from right to left instead of left to right. :cool:

potatoe
09-03-2007, 10:09 PM
Read from right to left instead of left to right. :cool:

rreD

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 10:17 PM
I ISLAM what you did there. May God grant you success.
Insh'Allah, I'll be done soon :)

rreD

llew uoy niart lliw eW
gnipyt elyts cibarA nreal lla tsum eW

TricepsNGirls
09-03-2007, 10:18 PM
Economic exploitation, yes, but radical religiosity doesn't factor into the equation because all in the Middle East are secular (save a few) anyway.

Can you explain? Are the children not exposed to propaganda and religious bias from birth? Why the exodus of educated and academic middle easterns to western countries?

deeyala
09-03-2007, 10:24 PM
Finally, an anti-Islam thread!

What's up Islam peeps?

I sea Islam there! :cool:


I am heading to school in abouuuuuuuut...









RIGHT NOW :D

(yes , addicted. I keep checking BB like every couple of hours )
(and yes, I am running late for school)

But that doesn't stop me from calling out
Wassup Islamz people!

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 10:26 PM
I sea Islam there! :cool:


I am heading to school in abouuuuuuuut...









RIGHT NOW :D

(yes , addicted. I keep checking BB like every couple of hours )
(and yes, I am running late for school)

But that doesn't stop me from calling out
Wassup Islamz people!

deeyala!!
I can sea you sneaking onto a laptop during class :P
Wassup Islamz lady?(I'm addicted too, 11:30 and I need to go to class tomorrow.)

abuwat
09-03-2007, 10:26 PM
Can you explain? Are the children not exposed to propaganda and religious bias from birth? Why the exodus of educated and academic middle easterns to western countries?

Immigrants from the middle east immigrate for mainly Economic/Political reasons. The well educated class is tempted by the chance to build a better life abroad. Corruption that allows those unworthy to climb up also plays a major role in creating an atmosphere of utter frustration. People don't immigrant for religious reasons. Even Egypts' Copts that claim to immigrate for religious prosecution are actually seeking a better economic standing in life (and yes I have plenty of Copt friends).

deeyala
09-03-2007, 10:28 PM
People don't immigrant for religious reasons. Even Egypts' Copts that claim to immigrate for religious prosecution are actually seeking a better economic standing in life (and yes I have plenty of Copt friends).

Thank you!
As an Egyptian, I really have very little tolerance towards the Egyptian diaspora, Muslim and Chrisitan alike.

abuwat
09-03-2007, 10:30 PM
Thank you!
As an Egyptian, I really have very little tolerance towards the Egyptian diaspora, Muslim and Chrisitan alike.

How come?
I'm Egyptian/Canadian living in Canada. What's wrong with that?

potatoe
09-03-2007, 10:30 PM
Insh'Allah, I'll be done soon :)


llew uoy niart lliw eW
gnipyt elyts cibarA nreal lla tsum eW

egauagnal ngis

Jamie M
09-03-2007, 10:36 PM
egauagnal ngis

sey
Bye Islamz peeps

EOY
09-03-2007, 10:42 PM
Can you explain? Are the children not exposed to propaganda and religious bias from birth?

Not really. I'd also like to see some examples of how this supposed radical religiosity is hindering prosperity and development. Prosperity and development is something that is largely controlled by the government. Radical religiosity hardly has anything to do with it.


Why the exodus of educated and academic middle easterns to western countries?

Because of the low standards of living in their original countries. You'd be hard pressed to find Middle Eastern immigrants from the UAE, for example.

EOY
09-03-2007, 10:43 PM
Immigrants from the middle east immigrate for mainly Economic/Political reasons. The well educated class is tempted by the chance to build a better life abroad. Corruption that allows those unworthy to climb up also plays a major role in creating an atmosphere of utter frustration. People don't immigrant for religious reasons. Even Egypts' Copts that claim to immigrate for religious prosecution are actually seeking a better economic standing in life (and yes I have plenty of Copt friends).

X2

abuwat
09-03-2007, 10:45 PM
Not really. I'd also like to see some examples of how this supposed radical religiosity is hindering prosperity and development. Prosperity and development is something that is largely controlled by the government. Radical religiosity hardly has anything to do with it.



Because of the low standards of living in their original countries. You'd be hard pressed to find Middle Eastern immigrants from the UAE, for example.

On a different note. Radical/Regressive ideals in the middle east ARE an obstacle to progression. As someone born and raised there I can definitely attest to this fact. Even though the majority would see it differently, it's a fact.

Edit:
Wow, 400 posts!

EOY
09-03-2007, 11:38 PM
On a different note. Radical/Regressive ideals in the middle east ARE an obstacle to progression. As someone born and raised there I can definitely attest to this fact. Even though the majority would see it differently, it's a fact.

Edit:
Wow, 400 posts!

I was born and raised in the Middle East as well and I'm going back as soon as I graduate

Keep in mind that we're talking about economic progression and prosperity. With that in mind, please give me specific examples of how "radical religiosity" (can refer to anything from Bin Laden to your average Muslim nowadays) is hindering progression.

SteR-
09-04-2007, 01:56 AM
There's a funny line in it by that Arnie type of guy. "I was elected to lead, not to read" :D

Yea I saw that on the trailer and that spiderpig bit too... so they basically ruined all the jokes before I even got to see the film :(

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 05:31 AM
Yea I saw that on the trailer and that spiderpig bit too... so they basically ruined all the jokes before I even got to see the film :(

There were a couple others besides what they showed on the trailers.

R0ck_S0lid
09-04-2007, 05:39 AM
That's a lot of reading!! can't u summarize it?

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 05:41 AM
Well, first it started out with the op trying to disprove Islam...then we stole the thread from him. :cool:

J-Bol
09-04-2007, 07:57 AM
That's a lot of reading!! can't u summarize it?

They pulled a Jihad on the OP's thread.

deeyala
09-04-2007, 09:41 AM
They pulled a Jihad on the OP's thread.

Islamic Conquest FTW! :D

Plus we also have the non-Muslim R&P population on our side,too.
The OP doesn't stand a chance to regain his thread back.

deeyala
09-04-2007, 10:02 AM
On a different note. Radical/Regressive ideals in the middle east ARE an obstacle to progression. As someone born and raised there I can definitely attest to this fact. Even though the majority would see it differently, it's a fact.

Edit:
Wow, 400 posts!
Congrats on the 400 posts! :D

Regressive ideals in the ME certainly do have a LOT to do with the state the people are in, but such ideals don't necessarily originate from religion. There's ample room for messed up cultures when it comes to the life of the average Middle-Easterner.
Personally, I think had all Middle-Easterners actually started practicing their religions (whatever those were), we would see a much better ME.


How come?
I'm Egyptian/Canadian living in Canada. What's wrong with that?
Nothing wrong with that.
But by the following statement you already proved you are more Egyptian that many who live here. :cool:
Let's just say that the Egyptian diaspora is mainly made up from selfish people who almost have zero loyalty to their country. (You're one of the few exceptions). I never understood how they see it fitting to practically leech off the Egyptian system, that spends TONS of money to provide them with education and then when it's time to repay their debt, they just up and leave.
And I am absolutely disgusted by those who claim religious persecution, thinking it's only a box they check on their application for a visa, disregarding the fact that this simple box they CHOSE to check could very well turn their country into ruins.
I don't think they'd care all that much what becomes of Egypt once they're out of it, but they keep forgetting some us still live there and some of us have been equally exposed to the hardships they've fleed and still chose to strive to make our home a better place.
I have no problem with one who chooses to leave, but I really can't tolerate those who start bashing my country to give excuses as to why THEY were too weak to stay behind with the rest of us.


And I forgot to mention second-generation Diaspora-Egyptians who think it's fitting to go bashing a wonderful country, one they've never been to, based on what their parents told them and based on the fact that they think being "Egyptian" is all about having an "Egyptian gene" in you and thus they're entitled to bash Egypt by birth-right , or something.
Guess what? Simply because you eat "fool" and say "ezayek" doesn't make you are an Egyptian :cool:

(Strong Patriotic Speech :D ) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/86281642@N00/405604722/)

No offense intended to anyone. I have family members who live in the diaspora, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't voice my disapproval of such behavior.


Immigrants from the middle east immigrate for mainly Economic/Political reasons. The well educated class is tempted by the chance to build a better life abroad. Corruption that allows those unworthy to climb up also plays a major role in creating an atmosphere of utter frustration. People don't immigrant for religious reasons. Even Egypts' Copts that claim to immigrate for religious prosecution are actually seeking a better economic standing in life (and yes I have plenty of Copt friends).

You have summed up the sitaution pretty nicely

Kuffodog
09-04-2007, 10:42 AM
...FAIL.

Sidenote: All religions are wrong.

Today on Yahoo News :

"BRUSSELS, Belgium - A Belgian prosecutor on Tuesday recommended that the U.S.-based Church of Scientology stand trial for fraud and extortion, following a 10-year investigation that concluded the group should be labeled a criminal organization.

Scientology said it would fight the criminal charges recommended by investigating prosecutor Jean-Claude Van Espen, who said that up to 12 unidentified people should face charges."

I say that practically ALL religions extort money from their brainwashed practitioners - Catholics in USA for example are told to pay 10% of their income and some priests demand to see their parishioners' income taxes! Mormons are the same way. You either go to church and follow the rules or for sure you're headed for eternal damnation in the afterlife. Normally I would laugh and say that those who give them money are suckers. That it doesn't matter. But when they rape the minds innocent kids (not to mention raping them physically for which they've settled for millions of dollars) just because they already have their hold on the kids' parents.... well... that's a bit of a problem. In the extreme you get this: 12 year old Muslim fanatics cutting off a man's head for video entertainment or other teens carrying a suicide bomb in their book pack to blow up random passers by at a vegetable market all in the name of their religion.

How exactly are they non-profit organizations if they making billions? The higher up you are on the ladder the more lavish the lifestyle and real estate. Have you seen a bishop's poor hut? Frankly, I don't think one exists. They all live in huge mansions or castles. Hmm non-profit. If a guy like that can have an indoor pool and servants why isn't he paying taxes? Damn, even the president of the country pays taxes! And they don't? I think religion in general the oldest, deepest rooted extortion-fraud scheme on the planet!!!

farzamk
09-04-2007, 11:11 AM
Probably other athiests and anti-Islam people.


Pay a trip for the sports forum and check out the stickies, that'll answer your question.

farzamk
09-04-2007, 11:14 AM
Whatever shorts I grab. No one sees it but God.





But in heaven men will be watching you naked everywhere you go, you can wear all the pretty clothes you want, but you're seen through them like x-ray vision, so says muhammad in quran AND a hadith/s. something like nakedness of a women can be seen through layers of clothing.

farzamk
09-04-2007, 11:25 AM
Muhammad was a barbaric man who was incredible at 2 things:

he was a f*ck machine, in other words visited 13 women in one night.

he chopped off heads for critizing islam although he clearly challenges people to do so, therefore by this he was a barbaric war leader.

farzamk
09-04-2007, 11:28 AM
muhammad said: anyone who leaves islam, kill him.

he also considered women at a low level of intelligence: your minds are defeicent as I showed the hadith in the other thread.


Now about the killing for apostasy, he basically had a strong hate for anyone against him or basically not with him, he hated other religions except the two he copied texts from, judaism and christianity. yet he says both of these will burn in hell for some time before being permitted to heaven...

farzamk
09-04-2007, 11:38 AM
Muhammad was sexually attracted to a 9 year old little girl who was unknown to have hit puberty, it was a assumption made purely based on the fact that she turned 9 when I think it's pretty obvious girls don't hit puberty in their 1st couple weeks of turning 9... Very soon after (like very very soon) he put his penis up her tiny p*ssy which I'm sure felt very pleasant for her... and she became his favourite sex partner. How she became attracted to a 50 year old man with a big mole on his back? who knows...

farzamk
09-04-2007, 11:46 AM
Muhammad used to sit in a cave all alone before writing the Quran. During these years he spent in there he imagined a place after death with nice breasted women who you could go up to and f*ck day and night with the energy of a hundred men, 72 virgins who have tight p*ssies, nice asses and great boobs who are simply made for you to screw them. Think of them as sex toys who groan when you f*ck them.

He was a sex machine both in his mind and body, that is why he had 13 wives and had a incredible sex imagination.

Tyle_
09-04-2007, 12:51 PM
Muhammad used to sit in a cave all alone before writing the Quran. During these years he spent in there he imagined a place after death with nice breasted women who you could go up to and f*ck day and night with the energy of a hundred men, 72 virgins who have tight p*ssies, nice asses and great boobs who are simply made for you to screw them. Think of them as sex toys who groan when you f*ck them.

He was a sex machine both in his mind and body, that is why he had 13 wives and had a incredible sex imagination.


Did you get all that directly from his writings or come up with it yourself? Just asking because the language sounds suspiciously "misc".

2X-eed
09-04-2007, 01:32 PM
Too many Muslim haters in here for me :D

kvk1
09-04-2007, 01:37 PM
Muhammad was a barbaric man who was incredible at 2 things:

he was a f*ck machine, in other words visited 13 women in one night.

he chopped off heads for critizing islam although he clearly challenges people to do so, therefore by this he was a barbaric war leader.


muhammad said: anyone who leaves islam, kill him.

he also considered women at a low level of intelligence: your minds are defeicent as I showed the hadith in the other thread.


Now about the killing for apostasy, he basically had a strong hate for anyone against him or basically not with him, he hated other religions except the two he copied texts from, judaism and christianity. yet he says both of these will burn in hell for some time before being permitted to heaven...


Muhammad was sexually attracted to a 9 year old little girl who was unknown to have hit puberty, it was a assumption made purely based on the fact that she turned 9 when I think it's pretty obvious girls don't hit puberty in their 1st couple weeks of turning 9... Very soon after (like very very soon) he put his penis up her tiny p*ssy which I'm sure felt very pleasant for her... and she became his favourite sex partner. How she became attracted to a 50 year old man with a big mole on his back? who knows...


Muhammad used to sit in a cave all alone before writing the Quran. During these years he spent in there he imagined a place after death with nice breasted women who you could go up to and f*ck day and night with the energy of a hundred men, 72 virgins who have tight p*ssies, nice asses and great boobs who are simply made for you to screw them. Think of them as sex toys who groan when you f*ck them.

He was a sex machine both in his mind and body, that is why he had 13 wives and had a incredible sex imagination.

Dear Penthouse...

jmonty
09-04-2007, 02:57 PM
Dear Penthouse...
lolz

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 03:34 PM
Too many Muslim haters in here for me :D

We've already derailed this thread...just put him on ignore and this will be our sea :D

farzamk
09-04-2007, 04:51 PM
We've already derailed this thread...just put him on ignore and this will be our sea :D

how about a PM to the moderator for thread hijacking? I think ill do that now. See you in ban land!

farzamk
09-04-2007, 04:56 PM
Islam the religion or war! Allah is the God of war and his chosen war leader: Muhammad the superman of sex!

God of war with the superman of sex= horrible world to live in.

Suicide bombers and terrosists left and right, long beards in the name of allah, no wonder 20,000 muslims everyday convert OUT of Islam, less muslims the better this world becomes!

EOY
09-04-2007, 05:00 PM
Islam the religion or war! Allah is the God of war and his chosen war leader: Muhammad the superman of sex!

God of war with the superman of sex= horrible world to live in.

Suicide bombers and terrosists left and right, long beards in the name of allah, no wonder 20,000 muslims everyday convert OUT of Islam, less muslims the better this world becomes!

And?

_AdaM_
09-04-2007, 05:01 PM
how about a PM to the moderator for thread hijacking? I think ill do that now. See you in ban land!

Don't suicide-ban yourself. :eek:


Finally, an anti-Islam thread!

What's up Islam peeps?

Wasuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup :D



But that doesn't stop me from calling out
Wassup Islamz people!


Wasuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup

Wassssuuuuuuuuuppppp......!!!!!!! Islamic peepz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L38wthA4Ld0 :D

EOY
09-04-2007, 05:10 PM
how about a PM to the moderator for thread hijacking? I think ill do that now. See you in ban land!

ORLY? I've never reported you before, but check this out:


14) The Religion/Politics Forum is for CIVIL discussion of relgion & politics. The Religion/Politics forum is a hotbed for issues that are very sensitive to many individuals. Please try and be respectful of other peoples viewpoints, do not start posts to flame or cause problems or you will be banned. If you see an offensive post, please report it.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=264880


Most of your threads and posts break this rule, with the exception of your debate thread with SK.

Therefore, reported.

C_Kent
09-04-2007, 05:18 PM
Hai guis wats goin' on?!

user67987300011654
09-04-2007, 05:22 PM
hha hahha so many muslim bros and sisters here

this turned out to be a Pro Islam thread


aahhahha Good job OP we love you man

Sallam to all

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 06:19 PM
Don't suicide-ban yourself. :eek:

lol...I thought that was only our thing ;)

ORLY? I've never reported you before, but check this out:



http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=264880


Most of your threads and posts break this rule, with the exception of your debate thread with SK.

Therefore, reported.
I've tried reporting him, didn't work. Maybe they'll listen this time.


Hai guis wats goin' on?!
Hai Kent

hha hahha so many muslim bros and sisters here

this turned out to be a Pro Islam thread


aahhahha Good job OP we love you man

Sallam to all

Salam Jani
We've done a good job with this thread.

2X-eed
09-04-2007, 06:27 PM
Hey track coach, can you rename this thread "Islamic lounge" or something?

BTW this thread reminds me of a wonderful story:

In a small town in Georgia, there is a small Muslim community who wanted to build a mosque. Many of the non-Muslim people were opposed to it being built, so it went to court. Before the proceedings began, the Muslims made a promise to each other: no matter what is said about them, their community, or their religion, they would just sit quiet and not get upset. Throughout the hearing, the non-Muslims who opposed the mosque being built were slandering the Muslims, our beliefs, our Prophet (PBUH), and were accusing them of being terrorists. The Muslims were steadfast, they just sat there and did not react. Upon seeing how genuinely peaceful the Muslim community was in the face of racism, bigotry, and hate, the judge said that he had never met a such a peaceful people, and gave them permission to build immediately.

This is what it is to be a Muslim. This is Islam. It is clear as day, especially in this forum, that we are being disrespected constantly by the likes of the OP. The fact that we can brush it off and not get upset and keep the manners that our faith has instilled in us shows how secure we our in our deen in the face of hostility.

farzamk
09-04-2007, 06:34 PM
Well what's a anti islam thread without a way to keep it active? Thanks muslims for keeping it active!

Plus what can you report me for in this thread?

Calling a holy war? That is what muslims are doing.

Chopping heads and arms for small reasons? That's Islam.

Whipping for sex? that's islam.



Who brought islam?

A man who screwed a 9 year old, I'm sure marriage was common between older guys and younger girls, but defenitely not 50 year old prophets!

A man who ordered death to apostates, death to adulterers, death to homos, death to anyone who went slightly against HIS beliefs.

No man of God who do these things...

_AdaM_
09-04-2007, 06:36 PM
Hai guis wats goin' on?!

sup bro :) you seen that fan thread at the misc :D



hha hahha so many muslim bros and sisters here

this turned out to be a Pro Islam thread


aahhahha Good job OP we love you man

Sallam to all

W/Salaam :) That's what I was thinking. OP failed big time :D but shhhh, we might upset him and as a retaliation, he'll post 251452658412688523,1 x 99985555226658 posts of a copy and paste articles attacking Islam



lol...I thought that was only our thing ;)



Hurray http://www.peoplesfreepress.com/images/Miscellanous/Hurray%20Dean.gif :D

farzamk
09-04-2007, 06:40 PM
such a peaceful people.


Tell that to your brothers who kill hundreds of people every month.

farzamk
09-04-2007, 06:42 PM
Everyone For Hijacking This Thread I Will Return To Making More And More Anti Islam Threads Rather Than Keep It In One Place!!!

EOY
09-04-2007, 06:43 PM
Everyone For Hijacking This Thread I Will Return To Making More And More Anti Islam Threads Rather Than Keep It In One Place!!!

Go ahead. The only people replying to your threads are Muslims anyway :D.

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 06:44 PM
sup bro :) you seen that fan thread at the misc :D




W/Salaam :) That's what I was thinking. OP failed big time :D but shhhh, we might upset him and as a retaliation, he'll post 251452658412688523,1 x 99985555226658 posts of a copy and paste articles attacking Islam Meh, I'll leave him on ignore...at least he gave us a secretive lounge.





Hurray http://www.peoplesfreepress.com/images/Miscellanous/Hurray%20Dean.gif :D


Beautiful!

_AdaM_
09-04-2007, 06:48 PM
Everyone For Hijacking This Thread I Will Return To Making More And More Anti Islam Threads Rather Than Keep It In One Place!!!

Capitalizing Every Letter Is Not The Way :o

C_Kent
09-04-2007, 07:08 PM
Naw dude, what fan thread?


In before Nuggz

_AdaM_
09-04-2007, 07:10 PM
Naw dude, what fan thread?


In before Nuggz

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4452213

Your personal Stalker :D

C_Kent
09-04-2007, 07:12 PM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4452213

Your personal Stalker :D
Yeah I saw that. BoyscouT got him in a flash!

deeyala
09-04-2007, 07:29 PM
Everyone For Hijacking This Thread I Will Return To Making More And More Anti Islam Threads Rather Than Keep It In One Place!!!
http://www.marcelmos.org/log/archives/marcel_terminator.jpg
:cool:

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 07:32 PM
http://www.marcelmos.org/log/archives/marcel_terminator.jpg
:cool:

:cool:
How's it going deeyala?

YusufIslam
09-04-2007, 07:35 PM
wow, this thread does deliver :D
I hope it won't be locked :eek:


Go ahead. The only people replying to your threads are Muslims anyway :D
:D

oh, hi farzamk...

deeyala
09-04-2007, 07:36 PM
Hey track coach, can you rename this thread "Islamic lounge" or something?

Cool idea



Well what's a anti islam thread without a way to keep it active? Thanks muslims for keeping it active!
You're very welcome.
Thanks for giving us a place to chat :cool:


Sallam to all
Salamz, Jan


Hai guis wats goin' on?!
Heyyy C Kent
Long time no see. Wow strong stalker you have over there in teh misc!


Therefore, reported.
Noooooooooooooooooooooo
This will close our lounge :(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L38wthA4Ld0

:D :D
Sup there!

deeyala
09-04-2007, 07:39 PM
wow, this thread does deliver :D
I hope it won't be locked :eek:


:D

oh, hi farzamk...

:eek:
Welcome back!
Where have you been all that time?


How's it going deeyala?
Going great, al hamdulelah
I am just stretching my finger muscles typing away on the keyboard before I go to sleep :D
I am supposed to be traveling first thing in the morning and I haven't packed yet, too.

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 07:43 PM
:eek:
Welcome back!
Where have you been all that time?


Going great, al hamdulelah
I am just stretching my finger muscles typing away on the keyboard before I go to sleep :D
I am supposed to be traveling first thing in the morning and I haven't packed yet, too.

I'm just getting my post count up before Isha

Get packing! Stop procrastinating.

EOY
09-04-2007, 07:44 PM
wow, this thread does deliver :D
I hope it won't be locked :eek:


:D

oh, hi farzamk...

Assalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamu alaikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh,

Sup brutha! Long time no see :D. How's life?

lmao what is this the Muslim reunion thread?!

Malodrax
09-04-2007, 07:47 PM
lol op got owned....

deeyala
09-04-2007, 07:47 PM
I'm just getting my post count up before Isha

Get packing! Stop procrastinating.

HA HA HA :D
Yeah, I tend to do that.

The other time I packed for a 15-days trip in exactly 15 minutes.
I winded up forgetting lots of stuff, though .
Oh! and I couldn't find enough clean socks, so I actually packed some from the dirty laundry.

It's Fajr time over here, so I am going to do my prayers then quickly pack anything and be right back to chat with the Islamz peepz ! :cool:

_AdaM_
09-04-2007, 07:48 PM
I am just stretching my finger muscles typing away on the keyboard before I go to sleep :D
I am supposed to be traveling first thing in the morning and I haven't packed yet, too.

One thing I hate about travelling is that I always forget things and remember them half way. Last time I went to Dubai, I forgot to take my passport from a gift bag that I gave someone and they went home, which in the end, I had to skip around my way to their home (this is about 3am) and get it back. And all of this happened within 7 or so hours before my departure :D :(

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 07:49 PM
lol op got owned....
He should be used to it by now.

HA HA HA :D
Yeah, I tend to do that.

The other time I packed for a 15-days trip in exactly 15 minutes.
I winded up forgetting lots of stuff, though .
Oh! and I couldn't find enough clean socks, so I actually packed some from the dirty laundry.

It's Fajr time over here, so I am going to do my prayers then quickly pack anything and be right back to chat with the Islamz peepz ! :cool:

lol, I usually pack at the last second too. Also tend to get to class at random times...:D

deeyala
09-04-2007, 07:50 PM
lmao what is this the Muslim reunion thread?!
Ha ha
Yeah it seems like it. This is like the first time Yusuf checks BB in ages and look what he finds! :D



lol op got owned....
Hey Malodrax.
Sup tonight?

YusufIslam
09-04-2007, 07:51 PM
Assalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamu alaikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh,

Sup brutha! Long time no see :D. How's life?

lmao what is this the Muslim reunion thread?!

wa'alaikumsalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,

Alhamdulillah, I am well, thank you, bro. I hope Allah keeps protect and guide us in the Right path. Amin.

I was quite shocked to see an "anti-Islam" thread on my first visit. I was even more shocked finding out the post content....*giggling*

user67987300011654
09-04-2007, 07:53 PM
sallam again reporting for duty hahaha

looks like the OP is mad

oh man 1000 dollars to whomever converts him hahahahh


nice thread yall, OP I still love you man, your posts keep me entertained at work

deeyala
09-04-2007, 07:53 PM
One thing I hate about travelling is that I always forget things and remember them half way. Last time I went to Dubai, I forgot to take my passport from a gift bag that I gave someone and they went home, which in the end, I had to skip around my way to their home (this is about 3am) and get it back. And all of this happened within 7 or so hours before my departure :D :(

Oh! Wow
Passport? :D
I still haven't done that yet.

Speaking of people forgetting stuff.
I once went to school in my car, left school in a cab totally forgetting I came in my car. I remembered at about 10 pm, that I left the car at school :D

user67987300011654
09-04-2007, 07:54 PM
Im gonna start reping people in this thread till I run out

deeyala
09-04-2007, 07:54 PM
sallam again reporting for duty hahaha

looks like the OP is mad

oh man 1000 dollars to whomever converts him hahahahh


nice thread yall, OP I still love you man, your posts keep me entertained at work

I think he said somewhere that his mission was to de-convert all of us :o

user67987300011654
09-04-2007, 07:55 PM
Oh! Wow
Passport? :D
I still haven't done that yet.

Speaking of people forgetting stuff.
I once went to school in my car, left school in a cab totally forgetting I came in my car. I remembered at about 10 pm, that I left the car at school :D


hahaaha ahahah wow that is funny, I forgotten my backpack at home many times

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 07:55 PM
wa'alaikumsalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,

Alhamdulillah, I am well, thank you, bro. I hope Allah keeps protect and guide us in the Right path. Amin.

I was quite shocked to see an "anti-Islam" thread on my first visit. I was even more shocked finding out the post content....*giggling*
I was going to ignore it at first, but then we turned it into our lounge.

sallam again reporting for duty hahaha

looks like the OP is mad

oh man 1000 dollars to whomever converts him hahahahh


nice thread yall, OP I still love you man, your posts keep me entertained at work
lol, I'm keeping him on ignore still, though I'll look into his threads if I feel like debating something.

Oh! Wow
Passport? :D
I still haven't done that yet.

Speaking of people forgetting stuff.
I once went to school in my car, left school in a cab totally forgetting I came in my car. I remembered at about 10 pm, that I left the car at school :D

LMAO!

deeyala
09-04-2007, 07:55 PM
That's it Islamz peeople!
Gotta pack! :cool:

See you in a couple

user67987300011654
09-04-2007, 07:56 PM
I think he said somewhere that his mission was to de-convert all of us :o

oh well we all have a mission in life, some productive and some not

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 07:56 PM
That's it Islamz peeople!
Gotta pack! :cool:

See you in a couple

See you...
I'll be back as well Islamz

user67987300011654
09-04-2007, 07:57 PM
I was going to ignore it at first, but then we turned it into our lounge.

lol, I'm keeping him on ignore still, though I'll look into his threads if I feel like debating something.


LMAO!


I never read more than a sentence when he writes those 8 page long posts anyways

allways same things, anti islam this and that, makes me laugh all the time

_AdaM_
09-04-2007, 08:00 PM
haha Dee

This thread is going 4ppm :D A Sea like thread in our very own R/P

Malodrax
09-04-2007, 08:10 PM
Ha ha
Yeah it seems like it. This is like the first time Yusuf checks BB in ages and look what he finds! :D



Hey Malodrax.
Sup tonight?

Nothing much... studying for the mcat... getting ready for school to start up again.

i hope all is well with you :)

YusufIslam
09-04-2007, 08:11 PM
bro and sis, I have to log out. InsyaAllah, talk to you later. Now I know which thread to open to 'trace' you :)

Malodrax
09-04-2007, 08:12 PM
good night :)

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 08:12 PM
I never read more than a sentence when he writes those 8 page long posts anyways

allways same things, anti islam this and that, makes me laugh all the time
lol, I know what you mean :D Sometimes, I'm just not in the mood.

haha Dee

This thread is going 4ppm :D A Sea like thread in our very own R/P
We deserve our own sea.

Nothing much... studying for the mcat... getting ready for school to start up again.

i hope all is well with you :)
mcat-- impressive :)

bro and sis, I have to log out. InsyaAllah, talk to you later. Now I know which thread to open to 'trace' you :)

Salam

hobbes1651
09-04-2007, 08:12 PM
This thread totally failed. Speaking of which who wants to help me learn Russian?

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 08:13 PM
This thread totally failed. Speaking of which who wants to help me learn Russian?

Or did it? :cool:

AtownKing187
09-04-2007, 08:14 PM
Islam the religion or war! Allah is the God of war and his chosen war leader: Muhammad the superman of sex!

God of war with the superman of sex= horrible world to live in.

Suicide bombers and terrosists left and right, long beards in the name of allah, no wonder 20,000 muslims everyday convert OUT of Islam, less muslims the better this world becomes!

I think that muslims are HIGHLY misunderstood as is The Middle East. I am most sure that that not all Muslims are wielding guns and are blowing cars up. Yes, they have a few bad apples...but so doesn't every other relgion in this world. It's like once one messes up...it makes ALL the others look bad too. Maybe if YOU and OTHERS understood them, and their beliefs...then you wouldn't be so quick to judge. You hate them, because you are uneducated about them...I suggest you educate yourself it might do you some good.

We as people shoud not be so quick to judge others like that...especially ones that are uneducated about the ones we "hate".

:o

EOY
09-04-2007, 08:15 PM
bro and sis, I have to log out. InsyaAllah, talk to you later. Now I know which thread to open to 'trace' you :)

Take care bro.


This thread totally failed. Speaking of which who wants to help me learn Russian?

I don't know about Russian, but I'll help you out with Ay-rabic if you want :D.

hobbes1651
09-04-2007, 08:21 PM
I don't know about Russian, but I'll help you out with Ay-rabic if you want :D.

Actully my Palestinian friends here at school keep trying to do that. Im not catching on quickly. I think Wasim is going to hit me soon if I dont make a serious effort. :D

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 08:23 PM
Take care bro.



I don't know about Russian, but I'll help you out with Ay-rabic if you want :D.

I need to start learning my Ay-rabic. I am disappointing my school friends with my non-fluentness.

EOY
09-04-2007, 08:25 PM
Actully my Palestinian friends here at school keep trying to do that. Im not catching on quickly. I think Wasim is going to hit me soon if I dont make a serious effort. :D

lol


I need to start learning my Ay-rabic. I am disappointing my school friends with my non-fluentness.

deeyala will hook you up yo!

deeyala
09-04-2007, 08:28 PM
good night :)

Nightiie to you and good luck on your test.



I am back Islamz people.
I've already packed, someone times me! :D I think I broke my record.
Doesn't look like I will be getting any sleep though, because I am supposed to hit the road in 2 hours :(

deeyala
09-04-2007, 08:30 PM
deeyala will hook you up yo!

'course I will. :cool:
We will start by naming this thread
Muntada Al bahr! :D
^^ Does this sound right ,EOY?

potatoe
09-04-2007, 08:30 PM
We've never had this kind of thread before.

deeyala
09-04-2007, 08:32 PM
We've never had this kind of thread before.

Oh Hey Potatoe..
We have Farzamk to thank for that.
Five stars!
Will read again :cool:

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 08:34 PM
I think that muslims are HIGHLY misunderstood as is The Middle East. I am most sure that that not all Muslims are wielding guns and are blowing cars up. Yes, they have a few bad apples...but so doesn't every other relgion in this world. It's like once one messes up...it makes ALL the others look bad too. Maybe if YOU and OTHERS understood them, and their beliefs...then you wouldn't be so quick to judge. You hate them, because you are uneducated about them...I suggest you educate yourself it might do you some good.

We as people shoud not be so quick to judge others like that...especially ones that are uneducated about the ones we "hate".

:o
Good post, will rep you on recharge

lol



deeyala will hook you up yo!

:cool:
I have people to practice it on too.

potatoe
09-04-2007, 08:35 PM
Oh Hey Potatoe..
We have Farzamk to thank for that.
Five stars!
Will read again :cool:

EDIT: Wrong thread.

AtownKing187
09-04-2007, 08:37 PM
Good post, will rep you on recharge

Phew, for a minute there i thought i had stepped on some toes. :o

deeyala
09-04-2007, 08:38 PM
Phew, for a minute there i thought i had stepped on some toes. :o

:) That's about the single decent post on this thread.

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 08:45 PM
Phew, for a minute there i thought i had stepped on some toes. :o

You can relax now ;)

AtownKing187
09-04-2007, 08:45 PM
:) That's about the single decent post on this thread.

I'm not much of a politcal person. I'm not pro or anti war or terrorism. That was my first post in this section ever. Thanks to Jamie for bringing this thread to my attention...I can not believe the ignorance some people like the OP have...I see and talk to people like him on a daily basis.
Knowledge is power...without it we are merely un-educated and power less. Instead of arming ourselves with hate and weapons we should be arming ourselves with knowledge. This goes for both sides we shouldn't be enemies, but brothers and sisters united. :)

AtownKing187
09-04-2007, 08:46 PM
You can relax now ;)

I feel a lot better now...lol. :)

Jamie M
09-04-2007, 08:50 PM
I'm going to get some sleep Islamz :cool:

AtownKing187
09-04-2007, 08:53 PM
I'm going to get some sleep Islamz :cool:

Goodnight Jamie! Thank you so much for showing me this thread. :)

deeyala
09-04-2007, 08:54 PM
I'm going to get some sleep Islamz :cool:

Nightie Jamie. I think I might attempt it myself,too. :)


I'm not much of a politcal person. I'm not pro or anti war or terrorism. That was my first post in this section ever. Thanks to Jamie for bringing this thread to my attention...I can not believe the ignorance some people like the OP have...I see and talk to people like him on a daily basis.
Knowledge is power...without it we are merely un-educated and power less. Instead of arming ourselves with hate and weapons we should be arming ourselves with knowledge. This goes for both sides we shouldn't be enemies, but brothers and sisters united
Aww
I can't rep you again :o
But judging by your first post in this section, all members in here will love to hear your opinion on every single thread in here

Good Night peeps!

AtownKing187
09-04-2007, 08:57 PM
Aww
I can't rep you again :o
But judging by your first post in this section, all members in here will love to hear your opinion on everything thread in here

Good Night peeps!

Thank you, and have a good nights sleep. :)

potatoe
09-04-2007, 08:59 PM
Neg train!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
































































not rly.
ebyam llew

AtownKing187
09-04-2007, 09:19 PM
Good night to any Islamz peoples left. :)

guym
09-04-2007, 09:35 PM
[QUOTE=AtownKing187;75447933]I'm not much of a politcal person. I'm not pro or anti war or terrorism. QUOTE]


Uh, you're not anti-terrorism?

What's your cause? Polisario? IRA? ETA? Taleban? FLQ???

AtownKing187
09-04-2007, 09:41 PM
Uh, you're not anti-terrorism?

What's your cause? Polisario? IRA? ETA? Taleban? FLQ???

I'm neither PRO nor ANTI. I choose not to have an opinion on that subject. Until i at least know more about it.

scott_donald
09-04-2007, 11:45 PM
this thread has to chill or the ban hammer will be waved!!!!

okasha
09-04-2007, 11:53 PM
this thread has to chill or the ban hammer will be waved!!!!

negged.
















































j
k


lol

EOY
09-05-2007, 12:03 AM
this thread has to chill or the ban hammer will be waved!!!!

Haha, everyone's already chillin (Except for the OP) :D.

deeyala
09-05-2007, 02:28 AM
Sup Scott!
Sup EOY! :cool:

EOY
09-05-2007, 02:29 AM
Sup Scott!
Sup EOY! :cool:

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh,

Sup deeyala :D.

:D. Haha!

":)"

2X-eed
09-05-2007, 04:19 AM
Asalamu alaikum wa rahmutallahi wa barakatuhu,

Good morning brothers and sisters, and farzamk

Finnegan Bell
09-05-2007, 04:26 AM
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6342/untitled1se9sp2xq9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

_AdaM_
09-05-2007, 04:46 AM
Asalamu alaikum wa rahmutallahi wa barakatuhu,

Good morning brothers and sisters, and farzamk

W/salaam bro

gnittirw drawkcab eht htiw stahw

scott_donald
09-05-2007, 05:29 AM
bb.com is an english site so post in english or i will just delete the posts...

EOY
09-05-2007, 05:44 AM
bb.com is an english site so post in english or i will just delete the posts...

They're just messing around typing from right to left :D.

_AdaM_
09-05-2007, 05:50 AM
bb.com is an english site so post in english or i will just delete the posts...

I aes :D

scott_donald
09-05-2007, 05:55 AM
They're just messing around typing from right to left :D.

doh...

Jamie M
09-05-2007, 07:00 AM
doh...

lol

What's up Islamz peeps?

Tyle_
09-05-2007, 10:57 AM
Islam the religion or war! Allah is the God of war and his chosen war leader: Muhammad the superman of sex!

God of war with the superman of sex= horrible world to live in.

Suicide bombers and terrosists left and right, long beards in the name of allah, no wonder 20,000 muslims everyday convert OUT of Islam, less muslims the better this world becomes!


I thought it was the fastest growing religion on earth but I could be wrong.

Jamie M
09-05-2007, 11:07 AM
I thought it was the fastest growing religion on earth but I could be wrong.

It is.

farzamk
09-05-2007, 12:16 PM
I think that muslims are HIGHLY misunderstood as is The Middle East. I am most sure that that not all Muslims are wielding guns and are blowing cars up. Yes, they have a few bad apples...but so doesn't every other relgion in this world. It's like once one messes up...it makes ALL the others look bad too. Maybe if YOU and OTHERS understood them, and their beliefs...then you wouldn't be so quick to judge. You hate them, because you are uneducated about them...I suggest you educate yourself it might do you some good.

We as people shoud not be so quick to judge others like that...especially ones that are uneducated about the ones we "hate".

:o

Blowing up things and killing yourself to get 72 virgins? That really sounds like a peaceful religion. Fornication is banned, yet you go to heaven and screw a hundred women everyday so says Muhammad in his hadith.

farzamk
09-05-2007, 12:21 PM
I thought it was the fastest growing religion on earth but I could be wrong.

Islam is introducing idiots into their religion and getting rid of some smart people. Think of it as a filter.

Tyle_
09-05-2007, 12:54 PM
Blowing up things and killing yourself to get 72 virgins? That really sounds like a peaceful religion. Fornication is banned, yet you go to heaven and screw a hundred women everyday so says Muhammad in his hadith.


You don?t get 72 virgins. Those are misinterpretations of words meaning pure and 72 which is to Arabic as a 100 is to English. I have heard an Arab scholar explain this.

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 01:00 PM
Blowing up things and killing yourself to get 72 virgins? That really sounds like a peaceful religion. Fornication is banned, yet you go to heaven and screw a hundred women everyday so says Muhammad in his hadith.

Christians have done far worse. ;) Nothing against them either. Every man that goes to "heaven" wants the women...If you do believe in "heaven"...some people see it as a place to have/get whatever you want. If it's sex...then so be it...it's heaven.

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 01:04 PM
Islam is introducing idiots into their religion and getting rid of some smart people. Think of it as a filter.

Every religion is like that. :rolleyes: They all have idiots who will do stupid things. That doesn't make them ALL bad people. Look at the bigger picture here for a minute. The "terrorists" blowing up cars and buildings isn't even 1% of the Muslim population. They are a minute number compaired to the non-terrorists.

_AdaM_
09-05-2007, 01:14 PM
Every religion is like that. :rolleyes: The yall have idiots who will do stupid things. That doesn't make them ALL bad people. Look at the bigger picture here for a minute. The "terrorists" blowing up cars and buildings isn't even 1% of the Muslim population. They are a minute number compaired to the non-terrorists.

AtownKing187, seriously mate, pretend that User doesn't excist in the R/P section.
If X = A, and you know its A, you try to explain it to him that X = A, he'll go through the motorway and say X isn't A but A2 or B.

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 01:23 PM
AtownKing187, seriously mate, pretend that User doesn't excist in the R/P section.
If X = A, and you know its A, you try to explain it to him that X = A, he'll go through the motorway and say X isn't A but A2 or B.

Yea Jamie told me about him in the Sea thread last night...lol. I kinda like the "debate" actually. :o

2X-eed
09-05-2007, 01:32 PM
I knew a few track coaches that were jerks. Therefore all track coaches are jerks.

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 01:38 PM
I knew a few track coaches that were jerks. Therefore all track coaches are jerks.

Ah, good ole inductive reasoning :D

pakmansc300
09-05-2007, 01:42 PM
I knew a few track coaches that were jerks. Therefore all track coaches are jerks.

lol

Jamie M
09-05-2007, 04:30 PM
I knew a few track coaches that were jerks. Therefore all track coaches are jerks.

I know a girl who was raped by her track coach, therefore all track coaches are...you know

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 04:59 PM
I know a girl who was raped by her track coach, therefore all track coaches are...you know

Inductive reasoning is to be used sparingly. :D

jmonty
09-05-2007, 05:09 PM
I know a girl who was raped by her track coach, therefore all track coaches are...you know
did her family kill her?

farzamk
09-05-2007, 06:06 PM
Every religion is like that. :rolleyes: They all have idiots who will do stupid things. That doesn't make them ALL bad people. Look at the bigger picture here for a minute. The "terrorists" blowing up cars and buildings isn't even 1% of the Muslim population. They are a minute number compaired to the non-terrorists.

Did you read the thread that had the article that a 11 year old girl who works in a TV show in Israel I think, she said she'd proudly become a martyr to go to heaven by blowing herself up, if she doesn't get the chance, then become a doctor.

Wow a death at 14-15 (3-4 years after she says this) compared to the high salary of a doctor, compare the life.

Martyrdom, the path to nowhere....

Doctor, a good life with tons of money to enjoy it.

if money doesn't bring some happiness, how about you go spend your days begging on the street, are you happy then?

hittman
09-05-2007, 06:09 PM
Muslims claim the Quran has modern science, but every verse has been proved wrong, but now they search to prove it right with twisting the meanings of verses.

for truth, you are quoted

potatoe
09-05-2007, 06:11 PM
Ah, good ole inductive reasoning :D

I anti islam what you did there...

farzamk
09-05-2007, 06:14 PM
I knew a few track coaches that were jerks. Therefore all track coaches are jerks.

Really...and who are these track coaches you name...could I have a source, my source for naming terrorists is the news, you can find suicide bombers everywhere on the news... who are these track coaches who are jerks and in what way, don`t say for drugs because those were the athlete`s choices to take them, gimme some names, I`ll know them all.

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 06:16 PM
Did you read the thread that had the article that a 11 year old girl who works in a TV show in Israel I think, she said she'd proudly become a martyr to go to heaven by blowing herself up, if she doesn't get the chance, then become a doctor.

Wow a death at 14-15 (3-4 years after she says this) compared to the high salary of a doctor, compare the life.

Martyrdom, the path to nowhere....

Doctor, a good life with tons of money to enjoy it.

if money doesn't bring some happiness, how about you go spend your days begging on the street, are you happy then?

No i didn't read it...I don't follow this kind of stuff. Let her become a martyr....let her blow herself up. As i said before there are some that are outright stupid...that doesn't mean they all wanna blow themselves up! We wouldn't have any Islamic/Muslim people if that was the case.
Money isn't everything remember that. So people don't need money to find happiness. At least she would die with pride and for what she believed in.

Jamie M
09-05-2007, 06:21 PM
Inductive reasoning is to be used sparingly. :D
lol ;)

did her family kill her?

No. It happened in America...where I have lived all my life.

farzamk
09-05-2007, 06:26 PM
No i didn't read it...I don't follow this kind of stuff. Let her become a martyr....let her blow herself up. As i said before there are some that are outright stupid...that doesn't mean they all wanna blow themselves up! We wouldn't have any Islamic/Muslim people if that was the case.
Money isn't everything remember that. So people don't need money to find happiness. At least she would die with pride and for what she believed in.

She claimed many muslim children would proudly become a martyr... see some brainwashing going on?

How about the hand chopping in Islam? stoning to death? head chopping? whipping? Isn't this barbaric?

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 06:33 PM
She claimed many muslim children would proudly become a martyr... see some brainwashing going on?

How about the hand chopping in Islam? stoning to death? head chopping? whipping? Isn't this barbaric?

Then they die with pride...i see nothing wrong with that. Although their way of wanting to die is a little extreme.

Not barbaric in the least bit....It has been done that way since the begining. You break a law and you get punished. Remember we "Americans" hung African American slaves by their necks back in the day...and there's a whole load of other stuff i'm sure we did...to INNOCENT people.

BIGNFIT
09-05-2007, 06:45 PM
Mr or Mrs farzamk , why didn?t you attack Judaism and Christianity ( not to say that you should )as you claim that all religions are false ? someone who is educated is not supposed to use obscenities a you did in this thread . I am curious if you do address your students the same way when coaching them ?

abuwat
09-05-2007, 06:47 PM
Hey farzamk,
What are you trying to do exactly? Prove that Islam is a set of false believes? Muhammad was a liar? blah blah blah

Well, I'm yet to find a liar with a growing following some 1500 years after his death. Maybe a Genius he is. Still, I'm yet to find one that even comes close. Mmmmm what is it what is it?

Maybe that's your answer. You see, it's all about results. I know I know, we can argue about symantics and are they 72 virgins or is that the Jinn talk gibrish. Who cares. The fact of the matter is he achieved in life and death what no other man on earth ever did.
And the most amazing of his achivements is giving peace of mind and soul to billions who walked this earth. None will come close.

Jamie M
09-05-2007, 06:50 PM
Mr or Mrs farzamk , why didn?t you attack Judaism and Christianity ( not to say that you should )as you claim that all religions are false ? someone who is educated is not supposed to use obscenities a you did in this thread . I am curious if you do address your students the same way when coaching them ?
He's attacked Christianity in the past, but not to the extent of Islam. What I wonder is how he would treat the kids he coaches or teaches if they were Muslim, Christian, or Jew.

Hey farzamk,
What are you trying to do exactly? Prove that Islam is a set of false believes? Muhammad was a liar? blah blah blah

Well, I'm yet to find a liar with a growing following some 1500 years after his death. Maybe a Genius he is. Still, I'm yet to find one that even comes close. Mmmmm what is it what is it?

Maybe that's your answer. You see, it's all about results. I know I know, we can argue about symantics and are they 72 virgins or is that the Jinn talk gibrish. Who cares. The fact of the matter is he achieved in life and death what no other man on earth ever did.
And the most amazing of his achivements is giving peace of mind and soul to billions who walked this earth. None will come close.

QFT
I don't think I could have said that better.

basement iron
09-05-2007, 06:52 PM
Mr or Mrs farzamk , why didn?t you attack Judaism and Christianity ( not to say that you should )as you claim that all religions are false ? someone who is educated is not supposed to use obscenities a you did in this thread . I am curious if you do address your students the same way when coaching them ?

Christ on a bicycle.

There are more responses in this forum about why did so and so attack Christianity and not another religion than their are grains of sand on a beach.

This seems to be the standard response. Someone attacks, questions, argues against X religion. People then respond by asking why didn't you include religions A, B, C, D, E...etc.

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 06:53 PM
I like the debate on this. :o

abuwat
09-05-2007, 06:53 PM
I could also tell from your hysteric posts that you don't enjoy this peace of mind. There is no doubt about it.
You think you're smart. All religious people are out there. You should bring them to the light. I see.
Well, Let's see. What light exactly?
I mean do you have answers. Real answers. Can YOU tell me what life is about. Where do we come from. Where are we heading to and what are we supposed to do around here.


Do you have answers sir?

I didn't think so. Until you do I would strongly suggest that you keep your nagging thoughts to yourself. Life is what we make of it. If we chose to believe (let's assume just for the sake of being good people living in peace i.e fooling ourselves) then good for us.

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 07:01 PM
Teaches? Coaches? I didn't know that! What if i may ask do you teach/coach?

BIGNFIT
09-05-2007, 07:08 PM
sounds like another wannabe salman ruchdie , a hazardous aim .

user67987300011654
09-05-2007, 07:10 PM
hello peoples just checking in to our little pro islam thread

Jamie M
09-05-2007, 07:11 PM
hello peoples just checking in to our little pro islam thread

Salam Alaikum Jani,
The pro-Islam lounge is a success. How are you?

user67987300011654
09-05-2007, 07:13 PM
just at work looking at finishing my homework than going home and playing with my daughter for a little before she goes to sleep


I feel bad for yelling at her today, she took her seatbelt off while I was driving and she was out of her car seat, she is only three

AtownKing187
09-05-2007, 07:13 PM
hello peoples just checking in to our little pro islam thread

Hello, nice to meet you. :)

Jamie M
09-05-2007, 07:17 PM
just at work looking at finishing my homework than going home and playing with my daughter for a little before she goes to sleep


I feel bad for yelling at her today, she took her seatbelt off while I was driving and she was out of her car seat, she is only three

Aww :( As long as it was just yelling. I took a swing at someone when they disturbed my nap earlier. :o

_AdaM_
09-06-2007, 04:11 AM
So Farzamk.... How do you feel of how your post turned out? What was your face reaction?
Was it like this like this (http://tobkes.othellomaster.com/images/face_shocked.jpg) or like this like this (http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/99/27/23292799.jpg)

jmonty
09-06-2007, 06:50 AM
lol ;)


No. It happened in America...where I have lived all my life.
oh. that is how some muslim families would react though, right?

Rambo26
09-06-2007, 07:00 AM
Then they die with pride...i see nothing wrong with that. Although their way of wanting to die is a little extreme.

Not barbaric in the least bit....It has been done that way since the begining. You break a law and you get punished. Remember we "Americans" hung African American slaves by their necks back in the day...and there's a whole load of other stuff i'm sure we did...to INNOCENT people.

There is such thing as a bad law, and who here defends hanging slaves?