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nnjj112255kkllo9
09-03-2007, 06:34 AM
Proverbs 3:13:
Blessed is the one who finds wisdom and the one who obtains understanding.

Wisdom is defined as scientific and philosophical knowledge.

Scientific knowledge and philosophical knowledge is aquired through logic and reasoning based on proofs

The problem that arises is that most christians criticize those of us who will only listen to logic and reasonoing when this is in fact what the bible says to do.

According to this verse, we should be blessed.

resurrected
09-03-2007, 07:49 AM
Proverbs 3:13:
Blessed is the one who finds wisdom and the one who obtains understanding.

Wisdom is defined as scientific and philosophical knowledge.

Scientific knowledge and philosophical knowledge is aquired through logic and reasoning based on proofs

The problem that arises is that most christians criticize those of us who will only listen to logic and reasonoing when this is in fact what the bible says to do.

According to this verse, we should be blessed.

I don't think they meant what you are implying. I think they were talking about wisdom of God and the understanding he brings. Back then logic was God and given from him they beleived, and reasoning was given to you by God as well.
I really do not beleive science had much to do with anything in those time eras. Considering the world was flat, and a eclipse was From Gods anger. ;)

nnjj112255kkllo9
09-03-2007, 08:10 AM
I don't think they meant what you are implying. I think they were talking about wisdom of God and the understanding he brings. Back then logic was God and given from him they beleived, and reasoning was given to you by God as well.
I really do not beleive science had much to do with anything in those time eras. Considering the world was flat, and a eclipse was From Gods anger. ;)

Then if the bible was perfect, the text would say what it meant....but thats a whole another can of worms

Vaper
09-03-2007, 08:21 AM
Proverbs 3:13:
Blessed is the one who finds wisdom and the one who obtains understanding.

Wisdom is defined as scientific and philosophical knowledge.

Scientific knowledge and philosophical knowledge is aquired through logic and reasoning based on proofs

The problem that arises is that most christians criticize those of us who will only listen to logic and reasonoing when this is in fact what the bible says to do.

According to this verse, we should be blessed.

Its talking about Gods wisdom not the wisdom of men.

1Tim6:20 Guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge

Proverbs 3:5,6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart; and don't lean on your own understanding. In all things acknowledge him, and he shall direct your path.

Pslam 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.

nnjj112255kkllo9
09-03-2007, 08:25 AM
Its talking about Gods wisdom not the wisdom of men.

1Tim6:20 Guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge

Proverbs 3:5,6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart; and don't lean on your own understanding. In all things acknowledge him, and he shall direct your path.

Pslam 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.

You would think wisdom would be empirical by the nature of wisdom in and of it self?

TunaMan5
09-03-2007, 08:29 AM
Proverbs 3:13:
Blessed is the one who finds wisdom and the one who obtains understanding.

Wisdom is defined as scientific and philosophical knowledge.

Scientific knowledge and philosophical knowledge is aquired through logic and reasoning based on proofs

The problem that arises is that most christians criticize those of us who will only listen to logic and reasonoing when this is in fact what the bible says to do.

According to this verse, we should be blessed.

what also doesnt make sense is that u DONT UNDERSTAND it but still act smart and analyze it !!!

nnjj112255kkllo9
09-03-2007, 08:30 AM
what also doesnt make sense is that u DONT UNDERSTAND it but still act smart and analyze it !!!

I guess you are saying it is a mistake to take a book about the nature of all truth literally?

You dont see a problem w/ 7900 of the 7959 verses in the bible being so ambiguous?

Vaper
09-03-2007, 08:34 AM
You dont see a problem w/ 7900 of the 7959 verses in the bible being so ambiguous?

1 Cor. 2:14 "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

jf1
09-03-2007, 08:34 AM
what also doesnt make sense is that u DONT UNDERSTAND it but still act smart and analyze it !!!

isnt that the point?
if 'the word' be true then believers should rejoice that nonbelievers are attempting to understand it!

'the word' should hold up to scrutiny and, if true, should enlighten those who understand!

nnjj112255kkllo9
09-03-2007, 08:36 AM
1 Cor. 2:14 "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

That is a paradox then:

1. You are born a natural man.
2. A natural man cant receive god
3. To be a unnatural man, you must receive god
4. To receive god, you must have never been a unnatural man
5. Thus, before you can receive god, you must have received god

RelentlessChaos
09-03-2007, 08:48 AM
I don't think they meant what you are implying. I think they were talking about wisdom of God and the understanding he brings. Back then logic was God and given from him they beleived, and reasoning was given to you by God as well.
I really do not beleive science had much to do with anything in those time eras. Considering the world was flat, and a eclipse was From Gods anger. ;)

oh hai. long time no see? good to see yah resurrected.

here is what my commentary says

"The HAPPY individual is the one WHO FINDS WISDOM, and especially so when we remember that Wisdom here is a veiled presentation of Christ Himself. Let us put Chrtist into the following verses and see what happens."

IceDragon
09-03-2007, 08:49 AM
Knowing something and understanding it are completely different things.

RelentlessChaos
09-03-2007, 08:49 AM
Then if the bible was perfect, the text would say what it meant....but thats a whole another can of worms

explain psalms then. theres verses that have deeper meaning. You read poetry now-a-days and wonder some times what the heck it means, but theres a deeper meaning you have to dig for.

Thats why it takes wisdom/discernment and understanding.

Vaper
09-03-2007, 09:03 AM
That is a paradox then:

1. You are born a natural man.
2. A natural man cant receive god
3. To be a unnatural man, you must receive god
4. To receive god, you must have never been a unnatural man
5. Thus, before you can receive god, you must have received god

Remove your bias for a second and read what the vese says. It says "the natural man doesnt recieve" not "cannot ever recieve". If he wants to recieve he must repent and turn from hes foolishness.

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

jmonty
09-03-2007, 09:55 AM
Proverbs 3:13:
Blessed is the one who finds wisdom and the one who obtains understanding.

Wisdom is defined as scientific and philosophical knowledge.

Scientific knowledge and philosophical knowledge is aquired through logic and reasoning based on proofs

The problem that arises is that most christians criticize those of us who will only listen to logic and reasonoing when this is in fact what the bible says to do.

According to this verse, we should be blessed.
i agree.

Calhexas
09-03-2007, 11:20 AM
Then if the bible was perfect, the text would say what it meant....but thats a whole another can of worms

Back then, they probably understood what it said without needing the same kind of translation we do today.

Language and dialect has changed since then...ALOT.

Horseradish
09-03-2007, 11:22 AM
Knowing something and understanding it are completely different things.

Subtle and true.

resurrected
09-03-2007, 12:08 PM
oh hai. long time no see? good to see yah resurrected.

here is what my commentary says

"The HAPPY individual is the one WHO FINDS WISDOM, and especially so when we remember that Wisdom here is a veiled presentation of Christ Himself. Let us put Chrtist into the following verses and see what happens."

Wassup bro?
Long time no been around. Busy as heck working.

resurrected
09-03-2007, 12:14 PM
actually if one reads the verse that says, let them who has eyes see, who has ears listen. In other words the truth needs to be seeked and found. I can read a science paper and get little from it due my understanding of science, but someone who has opened their mind on it can see and hear it. Same with bible and god. One must be tuned to it like one would be tuned to a radio station. There is radio waves all around us, but for the most part we do not realize it. I feel this is the same with god waves are around us, but those who are tuned to the frequency can hear it and see it.
I hope that made some sense ;)

RelentlessChaos
09-03-2007, 12:16 PM
actually if one reads the verse that says, let them who has eyes see, who has ears listen. In other words the truth needs to be seeked and found. I can read a science paper and get little from it due my understanding of science, but someone who has opened their mind on it can see and hear it. Same with bible and god. One must be tuned to it like one would be tuned to a radio station. There is radio waves all around us, but for the most part we do not realize it. I feel this is the same with god waves are around us, but those who are tuned to the frequency can hear it and see it.
I hope that made some sense ;)

yes it did, good analogy

nnjj112255kkllo9
09-03-2007, 12:16 PM
actually if one reads the verse that says, let them who has eyes see, who has ears listen. In other words the truth needs to be seeked and found. I can read a science paper and get little from it due my understanding of science, but someone who has opened their mind on it can see and hear it. Same with bible and god. One must be tuned to it like one would be tuned to a radio station. There is radio waves all around us, but for the most part we do not realize it. I feel this is the same with god waves are around us, but those who are tuned to the frequency can hear it and see it.
I hope that made some sense ;)

Ill use your analogy as i like it alot.

Then you have the problem of different people tuning in their radio and one picks up the muslim station, one picks up the christian station, another picks up the scientology station and the other tries their hardest, but cant pick anything up.

RelentlessChaos
09-03-2007, 12:19 PM
Ill use your analogy as i like it alot.

Then you have the problem of different people tuning in their radio and one picks up the muslim station, one picks up the christian station, another picks up the scientology station and the other tries their hardest, but cant pick anything up.

hmm. i believe if you tried to pick up that Christian station they would pick up on it. =) but it depends on your heart.

I undersand what your saying. If your sincere, and want to find and understand God, and his word, you will. If you just want the truth, and take the easy way(if there is one) it may be a little hard.

does this make sense, or is it along the subject your talking about.

nnjj112255kkllo9
09-03-2007, 12:21 PM
hmm. i believe if you tried to pick up that Christian station they would pick up on it. =) but it depends on your heart.

I undersand what your saying. If your sincere, and want to find and understand God, and his word, you will. If you just want the truth, and take the easy way(if there is one) it may be a little hard.

does this make sense, or is it along the subject your talking about.

What you are saying makes sense, but here is the problem:

1. You say if you truly try, you will pick up the christian station

2. Syriankid says if yuo truly try, you will pick up the islam station

3. Tom cruise says if you truly try, you will pick up the scientology station

4. ________ says if you truly try, you will pick up the _______ station

resurrected
09-03-2007, 12:23 PM
Ill use your analogy as i like it alot.

Then you have the problem of different people tuning in their radio and one picks up the muslim station, one picks up the christian station, another picks up the scientology station and the other tries their hardest, but cant pick anything up.

I feel what you type. I am the same at most times. I really do not hear much at all if anything. I am on the verge of middle road. But I do know if one listens quietly while in meditation something comes. I do as my ancestors does, I burn a smudge stick of sweet grass and sage while meditating on certain things such as the good spirits that exist. I find once in awhile if i am open enough to it, I have visions or sometimes I see a past relative come to me telling me things. I do know that my meditations do help me with peace and enerhy along with guidance spiritually. I have had bright lights in front of me with words that made little sense until I opened up to them. I know it sounds odd, but at times a voice in myvision tells me things that happens in the near future. I found if I do not listen it ends up in a mess. Now who is it giving the visions:? I don't know but perhaps it could be messengers.......

nnjj112255kkllo9
09-03-2007, 12:26 PM
I feel what you type. I am the same at most times. I really do not hear much at all if anything. I am on the verge of middle road. But I do know if one listens quietly while in meditation something comes. I do as my ancestors does, I burn a smudge stick of sweet grass and sage while meditating on certain things such as the good spirits that exist. I find once in awhile if i am open enough to it, I have visions or sometimes I see a past relative come to me telling me things. I do know that my meditations do help me with peace and enerhy along with guidance spiritually. I have had bright lights in front of me with words that made little sense until I opened up to them. I know it sounds odd, but at times a voice in myvision tells me things that happens in the near future. I found if I do not listen it ends up in a mess. Now who is it giving the visions:? I don't know but perhaps it could be messengers.......

I believe all of those feeligns are psychological manifestations. Meditation/praying/chanting/ what ever you want to call it, all stimulates the same part of the brain and shuts off other parts of the brain. When this is induced, people get these strange feelings....

resurrected
09-03-2007, 12:33 PM
I believe all of those feeligns are psychological manifestations. Meditation/praying/chanting/ what ever you want to call it, all stimulates the same part of the brain and shuts off other parts of the brain. When this is induced, people get these strange feelings....

If that is your beleifs then that is cool with me.
I am 50 years old and have seen all sides of the coin, I thought the same, as many on here does, once. I do know this, only you can find the path that is right for you. I am only here to perhaps, help with my experiences. Eventually you will find what you may seek as did I. I only wish you peace on your journey. Remember an open mind is a mind that hears and understands. Don't close it to anything.

RelentlessChaos
09-03-2007, 12:36 PM
I believe all of those feeligns are psychological manifestations. Meditation/praying/chanting/ what ever you want to call it, all stimulates the same part of the brain and shuts off other parts of the brain. When this is induced, people get these strange feelings....

yeah, its what most people want to think. I recently heard a guys speak for a few days. He wanted a typical teenage girl to stand up, one did, she said her name etc........the message was about "listening to God" and he prayed, and there was a moment of silence. Then he asked if anyone felt that God was speaking to them, a few raised there hands, and then he asked if anyone would want to share. One girl went up. He then asked if the girl who stood up would also come forward. He asked her if she had anything she wanted to say, or if she would share. She had a vision. He didnt know, he didnt even know her, just her name. he felt God wanted her to come up and speak. So 2 girls did that day.

I do believe in halucinations etc.......but i also do believe in other things.(miracles, and signs from God)

nnjj112255kkllo9
09-03-2007, 12:37 PM
yeah, its what most people want to think. I recently heard a guys speak for a few days. He wanted a typical teenage girl to stand up, one did, she said her name etc........the message was about "listening to God" and he prayed, and there was a moment of silence. Then he asked if anyone felt that God was speaking to them, a few raised there hands, and then he asked if anyone would want to share. One girl went up. He then asked if the girl who stood up would also come forward. He asked her if she had anything she wanted to say, or if she would share. She had a vision. He didnt know, he didnt even know her, just her name. he felt God wanted her to come up and speak. So 2 girls did that day.

I do believe in halucinations etc.......but i also do believe in other things.(miracles, and signs from God)

In situations like that, i feel like people want so bad to feel something (which i understand why they do), that they convince theirself they have felt something.

RelentlessChaos
09-03-2007, 12:40 PM
In situations like that, i feel like people want so bad to feel something (which i understand why they do), that they convince theirself they have felt something.

hmm, i guess. That may happen. A vision is different from say "i think God is telling me to do this"

resurrected
09-03-2007, 12:42 PM
yeah, its what most people want to think. I recently heard a guys speak for a few days. He wanted a typical teenage girl to stand up, one did, she said her name etc........the message was about "listening to God" and he prayed, and there was a moment of silence. Then he asked if anyone felt that God was speaking to them, a few raised there hands, and then he asked if anyone would want to share. One girl went up. He then asked if the girl who stood up would also come forward. He asked her if she had anything she wanted to say, or if she would share. She had a vision. He didnt know, he didnt even know her, just her name. he felt God wanted her to come up and speak. So 2 girls did that day.

I do believe in halucinations etc.......but i also do believe in other things.(miracles, and signs from God)

People need to find their own way. If god wants them to come he will instill the light in thier eyes. But until then some will remain blinded to the light.I was blind until I was older then like a light switch I saw the light others speak of. But i like many others still are sceptical and this scepticism may be our downfall. All one can do is be a beacon in a dark and dying world. Be that beacon and shine your light so others may see your joy and ask why. Through this light that shines from you, others may come to see the light as well.

RelentlessChaos
09-03-2007, 12:45 PM
People need to find their own way. If god wants them to come he will instill the light in thier eyes. But until then some will remain blinded to the light.I was blind until I was older then like a light switch I saw the light others speak of. But i like many others still are sceptical and this scepticism may be our downfall. All one can do is be a beacon in a dark and dying world. Be that beacon and shine your light so others may see your joy and ask why. Through this light that shines from you, others may come to see the light as well.

true, good post. reps on LONG recharge.

thats one thing i could not agree more on. Christ was so humble, and a light to many. He was someone i try to be, but am SOOO FAR. And my goal is to always be joyful, and the quiet one people look at and say "theres something different about them. I want what they have" THATS JESUS!

resurrected
09-03-2007, 12:55 PM
true, good post. reps on LONG recharge.

thats one thing i could not agree more on. Christ was so humble, and a light to many. He was someone i try to be, but am SOOO FAR. And my goal is to always be joyful, and the quiet one people look at and say "theres something different about them. I want what they have" THATS JESUS!

and you my friend is one who will truly make a difference.
I wish you luck in your endeavor. I will rep you anytime i can, because you seem to one of the" real "people. May you be blessed in all you do.

Uninspired123
09-03-2007, 01:40 PM
Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

I believe that this particular verse is a metaphor for:

The wise one hath said in his heart, there is no god.

it's figurative really.

resurrected
09-03-2007, 01:52 PM
I believe that this particular verse is a metaphor for:

The wise one hath said in his heart, there is no god.

it's figurative really.

On the other hand it could imply the blind one or the closed minded of the world proclaims there is no god.
How can one be sure of their beliefs? How can one be sure of thier destiny? As we cannot see our future, surely we cannot see our creation. History books have been proven wrong too many times.
Is there a God? Dunno but seems like the happier ones have found him.

TwiloMike
09-03-2007, 04:03 PM
Proverbs 3:13:
Blessed is the one who finds wisdom and the one who obtains understanding.

Wisdom is defined as scientific and philosophical knowledge.

Scientific knowledge and philosophical knowledge is aquired through logic and reasoning based on proofs

The problem that arises is that most christians criticize those of us who will only listen to logic and reasonoing when this is in fact what the bible says to do.

According to this verse, we should be blessed.

You fail at religion. No surprise there. Good for you.