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View Full Version : How can religion co-exist with first law of thermodynamics



Drizzt250
09-01-2007, 12:23 AM
1st law of thermodynamics is basically conservation of energy which is like the most fundamental law of science. Im pretty sure in all religious texts they mention something about creating stuff from nothing amright?

devire1
09-01-2007, 12:25 AM
piitb? haha! :D

":)"

timbo81
09-01-2007, 01:13 AM
God is not limited by laws of human physics

/thread

Drizzt250
09-01-2007, 01:21 AM
God is not limited by laws of human physics

/thread

well its not human physics because it applies to everything. But i guess this is where atheism vs religion begins their stalemate. But if god isn't limited by anything how come hes so absent in our lives today? For example, im a good person. If god showed himself to me id willingly accept him and repent my sins. But he wont. So he'd rather watch a good person(myself) burn in hell for eternity rather then give me a small simple sign of his existence? If this is the case then in my honest opinion god is an a-hole. You cant deny that he isn't.

another example - If god answers prayer how come he doesn't heal amputees?

aiwass
09-01-2007, 04:27 AM
God is not limited by laws of human physics

/thread

Biggest cop-out ever.

rockit
09-01-2007, 04:51 AM
A relevant quote:

"Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the ABUNDANCE OF DYNAMIC ENERGY, HE ALSO BEING VIGOROUS IN POWER, not one [of them] is missing. " (Isaiah 40:26)

Zarf
09-01-2007, 04:58 AM
1st law of thermodynamics is basically conservation of energy which is like the most fundamental law of science. Im pretty sure in all religious texts they mention something about creating stuff from nothing amright?

Spend a bit more time in school. The relativity equation says that matter and energy are interchangeable. The bible makes no mention of "creating from nothing".

IceDragon
09-01-2007, 05:09 AM
1st law of thermodynamics is basically conservation of energy which is like the most fundamental law of science. Im pretty sure in all religious texts they mention something about creating stuff from nothing amright?
Who's to say that the universe didn't already exist before the gods just came along and "tweaked" it?

No-one knows for sure either way. :cool:

LatissimusDorsi
09-01-2007, 05:30 AM
"Human" physics hahahahahahaha

Don't forget the elephant physics and wooden table physics.

nnjj112255kkllo9
09-01-2007, 07:04 AM
God is not limited by laws of human physics

/thread

Calvanistic fundie....lol

You have to flat out deny logic even exists to be that

Captain Britain
09-01-2007, 07:19 AM
God is supernatural therefore the laws of nature do not apply to Him.

skinnycalves
09-01-2007, 08:18 AM
i believe this question is called "singularity" in physics

diesel89
09-01-2007, 08:29 AM
Maybe I don't understand it, but I look at it the other way. How can the law exist without god. If energy can neither be created or destroyed, how did it get here in the first place unless by supernatural means.

RelentlessChaos
09-01-2007, 08:38 AM
1st law of thermodynamics is basically conservation of energy which is like the most fundamental law of science. Im pretty sure in all religious texts they mention something about creating stuff from nothing amright?

im lost. honestly

RelentlessChaos
09-01-2007, 08:41 AM
well its not human physics because it applies to everything. But i guess this is where atheism vs religion begins their stalemate. But if god isn't limited by anything how come hes so absent in our lives today? For example, im a good person. If god showed himself to me id willingly accept him and repent my sins. But he wont. So he'd rather watch a good person(myself) burn in hell for eternity rather then give me a small simple sign of his existence? If this is the case then in my honest opinion god is an a-hole. You cant deny that he isn't.

another example - If god answers prayer how come he doesn't heal amputees?

well, actually, he prolly has given you many signs, you just dont see them, or listening, or watching, or ask for help.


God isnt an "a-hole"

"you cant deny that he isnt"

I just did.

RelentlessChaos
09-01-2007, 08:43 AM
Maybe I don't understand it, but I look at it the other way. How can the law exist without god. If energy can neither be created or destroyed, how did it get here in the first place unless by supernatural means.

EXACTLY. i hope im saying that to something i agree with..=)

matter or energy cannot be created by natural means, right. So how did everything come from nothing by natural means, or cause. You lost me on "supernatural"

To me, a God could do that. Naturaly, i dont see, because its contradicting the law that states "matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed."

diesel89
09-01-2007, 08:49 AM
EXACTLY. i hope im saying that to something i agree with..=)

matter or energy cannot be created by natural means, right. So how did everything come from nothing by natural means, or cause. You lost me on "supernatural"

To me, a God could do that. Naturaly, i dont see, because its contradicting the law that states "matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed."

I was saying supernatural so as not to mention a specific god, just meaning some divine power

riptor
09-01-2007, 08:55 AM
I guess you could say the laws of nature didn't exist until after the universe began, so a god wouldn't have to violate them to create it.

And natural laws are observations of phenomena, it's possible that other laws may have happened. If there are other universes they may all have their own natural laws.

RelentlessChaos
09-01-2007, 09:00 AM
I guess you could say the laws of nature didn't exist until after the universe began, so a god wouldn't have to violate them to create it.

And natural laws are observations of phenomena, it's possible that other laws may have happened. If there are other universes they may all have their own natural laws.

you make some good points.

but the idea of everything comeing from nothing by nature just seems impossible.

diesel89
09-01-2007, 09:01 AM
^So before there was energy it was possible to create energy, but now that there is energy you can't? Huh? I was just wondering what the scientific explanation was or if there was one. A link or something?

user1245464
09-01-2007, 09:20 AM
Biggest cop-out ever.

X2.

RelentlessChaos
09-01-2007, 09:25 AM
^So before there was energy it was possible to create energy, but now that there is energy you can't? Huh? I was just wondering what the scientific explanation was or if there was one. A link or something?

were you talking to me?

i dont know if im misunderstood, or im retarded, but i dont agree with evolution, and to me it seems to contradict laws of science.

I dont see how matter, and energy could have been created from nothing. We are told, now, that none of this can be created or destroyed. I dont see from the beginning how it could have by natural cause.

diesel89
09-01-2007, 09:29 AM
No I was referring to riptor's post. I don't see how evolution condradicts science or how you brought it in to the arguement, maybe I missed something.

moomoomonkeys
09-01-2007, 09:34 AM
1st law of thermodynamics is basically conservation of energy which is like the most fundamental law of science. Im pretty sure in all religious texts they mention something about creating stuff from nothing amright?

how can YOU co-exist with first law of thermodynamics

riptor
09-01-2007, 09:43 AM
No I was referring to riptor's post. I don't see how evolution condradicts science or how you brought it in to the arguement, maybe I missed something.

Evolution doesn't contradict science, but we are discussing the beginning of the universe. I don't believe any god created the universe because the evidence for it is lacking. I don't know where the energy came from in the universe, it's possible it has always existed in some form or other. But there are vacuum fluctuations that show that particles can form from nothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluctuations

ballsoftitanium
09-01-2007, 09:56 AM
Evolution doesn't contradict science, but we are discussing the beginning of the universe. I don't believe any god created the universe because the evidence for it is lacking. I don't know where the energy came from in the universe, it's possible it has always existed in some form or other. But there are vacuum fluctuations that show that particles can form from nothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluctuationsI bet there aren't too many christians (or anyone else for that matter) that knew that energy could be ceated out of nothing.

Then again, it's only "nothing" as far as we understand the word "nothing", to a being with a more complete understanding of physics this "nothing" we speak of may not be "nothing" at all.

A buddy of mine is doing a masters in quantum field theory and he's just about to come out with a paper that deals with inflation in the early universe, if he stays true to his word and sends me the paper like he said he would i'll be sure to forward it to you if you're interested.

kooldude
09-01-2007, 09:58 AM
God is not limited by laws of human physics

/thread

reps for making a funny

Calhexas
09-01-2007, 03:49 PM
well its not human physics because it applies to everything. But i guess this is where atheism vs religion begins their stalemate. But if god isn't limited by anything how come hes so absent in our lives today? For example, im a good person. If god showed himself to me id willingly accept him and repent my sins. But he wont. So he'd rather watch a good person(myself) burn in hell for eternity rather then give me a small simple sign of his existence? If this is the case then in my honest opinion god is an a-hole. You cant deny that he isn't.

another example - If god answers prayer how come he doesn't heal amputees?

If God popped up and showed himself to you, you would KNOW of him, not believe in him. Big difference.

Under this premise...God is most definitely not an a-hole for not giving in to you selfishly wanting the easy way out.

devire1
09-01-2007, 03:58 PM
If God popped up and showed himself to you, you would KNOW of him, not believe in him. Big difference.


i always thought they were the same, but i guess i can see ur point.

RelentlessChaos
09-01-2007, 04:00 PM
i always thought they were the same, but i guess i can see ur point.

his point is head on. You dont believe yourself exists, you know you exist. What would you need to believe then?

crimsonanger
09-01-2007, 04:05 PM
The laws of physics break down at the singularity. Everything we know about the universe from that point back to the actual big bang does not apply.

So that answers your question. However, it is only a matter of time before we either a) extend our knowledge beyong the singularity or b) discover a better theory than the big bang to explain the beginning of the universe (though that is looking doubtful).