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Nextstopearth
06-11-2007, 03:03 AM
So I was talking to this girl that I've know for years. Normal nice girl, with a good sense of humour and not exactly a square if you know what I mean. We started getting into a religious discussion. I knew she believed in god, but I didn't know exactly how religious she was about it. She thought the mormon religion was a lie and she mentioned that the Christian bible was flawless;which she maintained even after I revealed several contradictions(any story that has a contradiction must have not been meant to be taken literally, and any logical contradiction was avoided in some way).

So I asked her more as a joke, "If your god told you to literally cook your family...would you do it?" She answered, as seriously as could be "Of course." I took a second, waited for her to laugh or otherwise reveal her sarcasm. "Are you serious?" I ask. She affirms and adds "It sounds wierd to say, but I'm not crazy or anything..."

"You would cook your family... but you're not....crazy???"

Have any of you come across normal people in your lives that seem like normal people but are actually absolutely fuking bonkers???

DaCougarMech
06-11-2007, 03:11 AM
i dont believe in god but if a deity told me to to cook my family, well i really dont have much of choice, do i?
i mean, it's all powerful and revealed itself to me

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 03:12 AM
Are you familiar with the story of Abraham and Isaac?

I think if God really spoke to me, I would do whatever He said. I would never suppose that I am smarter than God.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 03:19 AM
No, I wouldn't cook my family, but I might slow roast you on a spit!

AKR
06-11-2007, 03:38 AM
Are you familiar with the story of Abraham and Isaac?

I think if God really spoke to me, I would do whatever He said. I would never suppose that I am smarter than God.

shall i add you to my sig?

devire1
06-11-2007, 03:54 AM
shall i add you to my sig?

sarcasm... maybe?

SteR-
06-11-2007, 04:05 AM
I'd cook them too..

If you accept the idea that God is the most powerful force in this universe then surely you have to realise that any attempt to go against Him is pointless?

devire1
06-11-2007, 04:10 AM
i would ask god, rare medium or well done?


but seriously, her parents would deserve to be cooked for indoctrinating her to that degree.

AKR
06-11-2007, 04:12 AM
sarcasm... maybe?

guess we'll find out when he answers. wouldn't suprise me if he's seirous.

daehkcid
06-11-2007, 04:15 AM
I think my family might taste good with alittle barbecue sauce, maybe a little hickory. thats good eats.

devire1
06-11-2007, 04:30 AM
has there ever been a thread that asked if people would kill for god?

AKR
06-11-2007, 04:34 AM
has there ever been a thread that asked if people would kill for god?

apparently, you still haven't looked at my signature.

SteR-
06-11-2007, 04:49 AM
But I don't understand why you wouldn't? If God proved Himself to you and asked you to kill for Him.. you would surely be an idiot not to? In fact it'd be totally illogical not to.

If your creator, who has absolute power over you, asks you to do something.. you pretty much have to do it..

fkn_give_me_abs
06-11-2007, 04:51 AM
But I don't understand why you wouldn't? If God proved Himself to you and asked you to kill for Him.. you would surely be an idiot not to? In fact it'd be totally illogical not to.

If your creator, who has absolute power over you, asks you to do something.. you pretty much have to do it..

i would tell him to **** off... even if i truly believed he was real and talking to me, or at least ask him why.

i think i would rather burn in hell than hurt my family.

SteR-
06-11-2007, 04:53 AM
I'm not saying I'd WANT to either, quite the opposite. But if my creator told me to do something I'd have to do it - no questions asked

AKR
06-11-2007, 04:56 AM
But I don't understand why you wouldn't? If God proved Himself to you and asked you to kill for Him.. you would surely be an idiot not to? In fact it'd be totally illogical not to.

If your creator, who has absolute power over you, asks you to do something.. you pretty much have to do it..

no, you'd be an idiot to follow someone just because they have power over you. if a person came up to you with a gun and told you to cut your child's throat or be shot in the head, you'd slit your child's throat? wow, scary ****, man.

SteR-
06-11-2007, 04:59 AM
no, you'd be an idiot to follow someone just because they have power over you. if a person came up to you with a gun and told you to cut your child's throat or be shot in the head, you'd slit your child's throat? wow, scary ****, man.

That's different but nvm, I'll stop here before this turns into a flame war :)

AKR
06-11-2007, 05:02 AM
That's different but nvm, I'll stop here before this turns into a flame war :)

i'm not looking for a flame war; i'm looking for a good debate. how is that different? we're talking about someone who has power over you. whether it's god or a guy with a gun (let's say it's a ton of guys, so there's no way you can fight back). you're either saying that might = right, and god must know what's right, since he has more power, or you're saying you'd simply do it because he would punish you if you didn't do it. or you're saying both. so once again, it doesn't matter if it's god or guys with guns; if it's power over you that you cannot usefully resist, it's the same.

SteR-
06-11-2007, 05:07 AM
ok well my personal reasoning is that I'd have to accept that God really is the 'ultimate being'. I'd assume that because He has created everything in existence, He has more knowledge/wisdom than I could ever concieve. Therefore, I'd HAVE to trust that God knows what He's doing and there is a reason for His request.

If another human were trying to overpower me, I'd simply reject his request on the grounds that they have no authority over me. Anything they want me to do can be explained to me so they'd have to at least explain their reasoning/request before I do anything for them.

Does that make sense?

fkn_give_me_abs
06-11-2007, 05:09 AM
ok well my personal reasoning is that I'd have to accept that God really is the 'ultimate being'. I'd assume that because He has created everything in existence, He has more knowledge/wisdom than I could ever concieve. Therefore, I'd HAVE to trust that God knows what He's doing and there is a reason for His request.

If another human were trying to overpower me, I'd simply reject his request on the grounds that they have no authority over me. Anything they want me to do can be explained to me so they'd have to at least explain their reasoning/request before I do anything for them.

Does that make sense?

would you not even question god??

would you do it if his reason was "he looked at me funny"?

what would the limit be?

myPecsRbigger
06-11-2007, 05:10 AM
what if you were halucinating ?

AKR
06-11-2007, 05:11 AM
i simply do not understand the concept of "might equals right." why is god equated with absolute morality? why does having great power and intelligence mean that you're right about everything? i mean, look at the iq levels of some individuals with power. they are very intelligent, and yet, their morality goes against that of many religions, and most would agree that these are "morally corrupt" people. hitler was a smart, powerful man. are you telling me his moral system is better than that of someone with less power and intelligence? how does power make someone a good moral authority? how does intelligence do the same thing?

SteR-
06-11-2007, 05:12 AM
would you not even question god??

would you do it if his reason was "he looked at me funny"?

what would the limit be?

Well yes I would obviously ask God first - I would at least try to understand why I was being asked to do such a thing. But ultimately, I would know that God knows why He's asking me to do this so I must obey...

Believe me, the LAST thing I would want to do is harm any of my family but God is greater.. I'd have to put Him first since He was the one who created my family in the first place :)

devire1
06-11-2007, 05:13 AM
would you not even question god??

would you do it if his reason was "he looked at me funny"?

what would the limit be?

to him, god is all knowing, so god could never be wrong. whatever god told him to do would be the right thing to do in the eternal scheme of things.

LatissimusDorsi
06-11-2007, 05:14 AM
Well yes I would obviously ask God first - I would at least try to understand why I was being asked to do such a thing. But ultimately, I would know that God knows why He's asking me to do this so I must obey...

Believe me, the LAST thing I would want to do is harm any of my family but God is greater.. I'd have to put Him first since He was the one who created my family in the first place :)

I like how u put a smiley face after what u just said...

AKR
06-11-2007, 05:15 AM
ok well my personal reasoning is that I'd have to accept that God really is the 'ultimate being'. I'd assume that because He has created everything in existence, He has more knowledge/wisdom than I could ever concieve. Therefore, I'd HAVE to trust that God knows what He's doing and there is a reason for His request.

If another human were trying to overpower me, I'd simply reject his request on the grounds that they have no authority over me. Anything they want me to do can be explained to me so they'd have to at least explain their reasoning/request before I do anything for them.

Does that make sense?

see my other post for part of my reply. it wasn't necessarily directed at you when i made it, but you can find my opinions in there.

what if a bunch of rocket scientists with guns (this is sounding rediculous, but it has a point) told you to do the same thing? i mean, you're not a rocket scientist are you? surely they can fathom concepts you can only dream of grasping.

SteR-
06-11-2007, 05:15 AM
i simply do not understand the concept of "might equals right." why is god equated with absolute morality? why does having great power and intelligence mean that you're right about everything? i mean, look at the iq levels of some individuals with power. they are very intelligent, and yet, their morality goes against that of many religions, and most would agree that these are "morally corrupt" people. hitler was a smart, powerful man. are you telling me his moral system is better than that of someone with less power and intelligence? how does power make someone a good moral authority? how does intelligence do the same thing?

But don't you understand.. if you accept that God created everything, then you must also accept that He CREATED morality. He created everything that you are and dicates how you feel and all your emotions.

It almost seems as though you percieve God as a creation within the boundaries of this universe.. like He's just a smarter being or something who is still tied down by human emotions/thoughts/reasoning. What you have to try to understand is that God is outside the boundaries of this... He's not tied down by human emotions/feelings as He created them - He created everything so His thought processes (if He even has 'thoughts'?) are so vastly superior to ours.. inconceivably so..

AKR
06-11-2007, 05:29 AM
But don't you understand.. if you accept that God created everything, then you must also accept that He CREATED morality. He created everything that you are and dicates how you feel and all your emotions.

no, i wouldn't have to accept that. i still see no logic in assuming his morals are the greatest morals.



It almost seems as though you percieve God as a creation within the boundaries of this universe.. like He's just a smarter being or something who is still tied down by human emotions/thoughts/reasoning. What you have to try to understand is that God is outside the boundaries of this... He's not tied down by human emotions/feelings as He created them - He created everything so His thought processes (if He even has 'thoughts'?) are so vastly superior to ours.. inconceivably so..



no, i'm not thinking of god as a creation within the bounds of this universe. but then again, who's to say he's not a creation of someone else? i live by a very important rule: question everything. i have yet to understand why a god or anyone must be the ultimate moral authority, so i must keep asking why. having the power and intelligence to create, destroy, and punish does not seem to me like a reason to have anything but an opinion.

SteR-
06-11-2007, 05:47 AM
see my other post for part of my reply. it wasn't necessarily directed at you when i made it, but you can find my opinions in there.

what if a bunch of rocket scientists with guns (this is sounding rediculous, but it has a point) told you to do the same thing? i mean, you're not a rocket scientist are you? surely they can fathom concepts you can only dream of grasping.

I can see the point you're making but it still isn't the same thing. My point is, that God has DEFINATE knowledge/wisdom which IS 100% right no matter what I think. Rocket scientists however, are a) within the realms of my understanding. Even though I may not understand at the time, it is possible for me to understand over time b) the scientists do not have DEFINATE knowledge. They have some understanding about science obviously but it's only in relation to what they've tested.. it's not the absolute truth as God knows if that makes sense?

SteR-
06-11-2007, 05:51 AM
no, i wouldn't have to accept that. i still see no logic in assuming his morals are the greatest morals.

Well this depends on your definition of God. My definition of God is that He is the ultimate entity. He is responsible for all creation and is at the top of the chain of everything. Nothing exists without God as He created everything.


no, i'm not thinking of god as a creation within the bounds of this universe. but then again, who's to say he's not a creation of someone else? i live by a very important rule: question everything. i have yet to understand why a god or anyone must be the ultimate moral authority, so i must keep asking why. having the power and intelligence to create, destroy, and punish does not seem to me like a reason to have anything but an opinion.

Like I said above, my definition of God is the being who created everything therefore, God created morality, all our emotions, all our reasoning and logic - everything. With this kind of knowledge, you can never question God. It's pointless because his knowledge and wisdom is so infinitely great that we, as humans, could never even begin to conceive what He knows.

I think in order to understand my thinking you have to accept that God really is the greatest. He is responsible for everything and anything...

SteR-
06-11-2007, 05:53 AM
to him, god is all knowing, so god could never be wrong. whatever god told him to do would be the right thing to do in the eternal scheme of things.

bingo. If God asks you to do something, it IS right simply because God can never be 'wrong'

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 06:14 AM
shall i add you to my sig?

Gee, I'm shaking in my boots.

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 06:18 AM
guess we'll find out when he answers. wouldn't suprise me if he's seirous.

Of course I'm serious. So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that if God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, spoke to you personally and gave you specific instructions, you'd reply, "Nah, I'll do what I want to do, not what you want me to do."

nnjj112255kkllo9
06-11-2007, 06:23 AM
This shows how dumb and deluted religious people are. I think its funny that these people who would do it, criticize other people who do kill theri kids or somethign when god tells them to. Who are they to say god really didnt tell these people to. I think the people who drowned and slaugther their kids should be given a medal...

Quintis Vindex
06-11-2007, 06:25 AM
This shows how dumb and deluted religious people are. I think its funny that these people who would do it, criticize other people who do kill theri kids or somethign when god tells them to. Who are they to say god really didnt tell these people to. I think the people who drowned and slaugther their kids should be given a medal...

Hussein used to give $5000 to people who cooked their families by the command of 'God'.

IIRC its way we invaded Iraq.

Weightaholic
06-11-2007, 06:33 AM
I'd cook them too..

If you accept the idea that God is the most powerful force in this universe then surely you have to realise that any attempt to go against Him is pointless?

And then you can tell the judge that god told you to do it!




This thread HAS bought all the loons out, hasn't it?

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 06:33 AM
This shows how dumb and deluted religious people are. I think its funny that these people who would do it, criticize other people who do kill theri kids or somethign when god tells them to. Who are they to say god really didnt tell these people to. I think the people who drowned and slaugther their kids should be given a medal...

Hold on there, hoss. You're confusing the issue. In this hypothetical scenario I thought we were talking about an actual communication from God. Now you're suggesting that only crazy people hear from God. Are you saying that Jesus, his disciples, and all the prophets were insane? After all, God spoke to them.

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 06:36 AM
This thread HAS bought all the loons out, hasn't it?

It sure has...

Weightaholic
06-11-2007, 06:40 AM
It sure has...

Says the man who says this....


Are you familiar with the story of Abraham and Isaac?

I think if God really spoke to me, I would do whatever He said. I would never suppose that I am smarter than God.

Now, I'd suggest before you go all Jeffrey Dahmer, you really, REALLY confirm that it's actually god talking to you, and that you haven't just forgotten your meds.

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 06:50 AM
Now, I'd suggest before you go all Jeffrey Dahmer, you really, REALLY confirm that it's actually god talking to you, and that you haven't just forgotten your meds.

Now were we talking about communication from God, or are we talking about lunacy? If we're talking about being insane, then I would still probably cook my family, because I would be crazy and wouldn't know any better. And so would you.

nnjj112255kkllo9
06-11-2007, 06:50 AM
Hold on there, hoss. You're confusing the issue. In this hypothetical scenario I thought we were talking about an actual communication from God. Now you're suggesting that only crazy people hear from God. Are you saying that Jesus, his disciples, and all the prophets were insane? After all, God spoke to them.

Yes, i am suggesting that only crazy pepole hear from "God". I personally believe anyone who really believes that they hear from god should be incarcerated in a mental health facility...

/no, I am not joiking

Weightaholic
06-11-2007, 06:59 AM
Now were we talking about communication from God, or are we talking about lunacy? If we're talking about being insane, then I would still probably cook my family, because I would be crazy and wouldn't know any better. And so would you.

So you're saying that insane people would cook their family, and so would people who heard from god?

Hmmm....

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 07:01 AM
Yes, i am suggesting that only crazy pepole hear from "God". I personally believe anyone who really believes that they hear from god should be incarcerated in a mental health facility...

/no, I am not joiking

So you don't believe in God. Well then if He ever speaks to you, please ignore Him.

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 07:14 AM
So you're saying that insane people would cook their family, and so would people who heard from god?

Hmmm....

Obviously God tests people's faith sometimes, like he did Abraham's. But He is merciful, and there is no evidence that He ever commanded someone to actually kill another human (at least not the God that I believe in--I can't speak for others...)

And of course crazy people are crazy, so can could believe just about anything. Heck, they might even agree with you!

SteR-
06-11-2007, 07:43 AM
I wish I could rep you again rlanicek :(

To everyone else:

we started with a hypothetical situation where the OP said if God told you to cook your family would you? The situation states that God has been identified so you are aware that the creator of everything is giving you a command.

Now please tell me how you can call us crazy if we obey this order? It is the logical thing to do...

DanielBell
06-11-2007, 07:46 AM
All of you who say yes are assuming that God is good. Does he necessarily have to be? Sure, let's say disobeying God sends you to hell, but what if he wants you to cook your family because he's a sadist? Would you be so selfish as to feed his sadistic needs just to save yourself?

nnjj112255kkllo9
06-11-2007, 07:49 AM
I wish I could rep you again rlanicek :(

To everyone else:

we started with a hypothetical situation where the OP said if God told you to cook your family would you? The situation states that God has been identified so you are aware that the creator of everything is giving you a command.

Now please tell me how you can call us crazy if we obey this order? It is the logical thing to do...

How is killing someone who did nothing to you logical?
You are assuming god has a logical reasoning.

If you that it doesnt matter because whateve god says go, then you are stepping out of the realm of logic.

Don't pull that BULL**** of trying to merge god and Logic

/notice the "L" in caps and the "g" is not, think about it

SteR-
06-11-2007, 07:54 AM
How is killing someone who did nothing to you logical?
You are assuming god has a logical reasoning.

If you that it doesnt matter because whateve god says go, then you are stepping out of the realm of logic.

Don't pull that BULL**** of trying to merge god and Logic

/notice the "L" in caps and the "g" is not, think about it

You're not getting it are you?

God is supposedly top of the chain.. He sets the rules therefore ANYTHING He orders you to do is ultimately the right thing to do. Yes, harming your family goes against everything you know to be right but ultimately, you would be doing the 'right' thing by obeying God.

The OP has just so happened to pick a task which goes against everything we believe to be right but ultimately, God is always right so to obey him would be the logical thing to do. It's really not that hard to understand.

And yes, we can merge God and logic for this because the OP aleady said that in this situation, we know God is talking to us.

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 08:06 AM
/notice the "L" in caps and the "g" is not, think about it

Wow, I see that now. How ingenious. Yes, you have convinced me, with your witty use of capitalization, that God does not exist. I feel so free! All hail Logic! Logic is great!

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for Logic art with me; Logic's rod and Logic's staff, they comfort me!

nnjj112255kkllo9
06-11-2007, 08:17 AM
....

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for Logic art with me; Logic's rod and Logic's staff, they comfort me!

Whenever I see or hear that quote, i think of the sex trafficking bust about 9 months ago where infants from 6months to 2 years were anally raped, sex slaves, etc...and I say to myself, if only they would have recited that quote, they would not have to fear evil...

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 08:18 AM
How is killing someone who did nothing to you logical?


So you're anti-abortion then? It would be a logical step, since killing someone who did nothing to you is not, according to you, logical.

I was also wondering how you got so smart at only 22 years old? I mean if there are billions and billions of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, et al., then how is it that you know more than all of them? Somehow, I envision you still being supported by your parents, and working in retail--probably Best Buy. Am I close?

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 08:21 AM
Whenever I see or hear that quote, i think of the sex trafficking bust about 9 months ago where infants from 6months to 2 years were anally raped, sex slaves, etc...and I say to myself, if only they would have recited that quote, they would not have to fear evil...

Perhaps you should see a mental therapist, if a Bible quote spins you off into visions of anal rape, sex slaves, and child abuse. You need professional help.

Boxman
06-11-2007, 08:27 AM
Sometimes, I start thinking to myself "the human race really isn't so bad".

And then I'm exposed to the religious\authoritarian mindset so proudly displayed here.

Which then reminds me that 90% of the world population thinks this way.

nnjj112255kkllo9
06-11-2007, 08:29 AM
So you're anti-abortion then? It would be a logical step, since killing someone who did nothing to you is not, according to you, logical.

I was also wondering how you got so smart at only 22 years old? I mean if there are billions and billions of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, et al., then how is it that you know more than all of them? Somehow, I envision you still being supported by your parents, and working in retail--probably Best Buy. Am I close?

I am against abortion after their 42nd day as a fetus as this is the day the average fetus has their first brain wave. I believe it is alive when it has a brain wave.

I've lived on my own since I was 13. I lived in my car my first year of college so I could afford to go. I graduate in a few weeks w/ a Bachelors in Physics, Philosophy and Religious Studies.

My job is doing Physics Research and I just got published in the Journal of Modern Optics (Journal reserved for people usually w/ just PHD's). I am current doing research on the effectiveness of different medication for Sickle Cell Disease.

Edit: My first year of college i rented a locker at the recreation center so I could shower...

DanielBell
06-11-2007, 08:30 AM
So you're anti-abortion then? It would be a logical step, since killing someone who did nothing to you is not, according to you, logical.

I was also wondering how you got so smart at only 22 years old? I mean if there are billions and billions of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, et al., then how is it that you know more than all of them? Somehow, I envision you still being supported by your parents, and working in retail--probably Best Buy. Am I close?

Most atheists don't claim to know as much as theists do. We don't know how the universe came into existance, we don't know how life started, we don't know why we are here (or even if there is a reason) infact we really don't claim to know ****.

But the fact is you have billions and billions of people, the majority do not hold any sort of real education, yet they think they know the answers to the universe because some book tells them?

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 08:43 AM
Most atheists don't claim to know as much as theists do. We don't know how the universe came into existance, we don't know how life started, we don't know why we are here (or even if there is a reason) infact we really don't claim to know ****.

But the fact is you have billions and billions of people, the majority do not hold any sort of real education, yet they think they know the answers to the universe because some book tells them?

Ah, another young buck entertaining us with his worldly wisdom and research, and he feels that only he (and his fellow atheists) are educated and wise enough to eschew the existence of a supreme being, regardless of centuries of belief and billions of believers. Only you young atheists "hold any sort of real education". And you feel it is your duty to oppose my beliefs at every opportunity.

Well my God teaches tolerance (clearly I am not Muslim, but that's another thread...) So I will pray for you. I will pray that God forgives you. I will pray for the repose of your soul, "for they know not what they do."

DanielBell
06-11-2007, 08:46 AM
Ah, another young buck entertaining us with his worldly wisdom and research, and he feels that only he (and his fellow atheists) are educated and wise enough to eschew the existence of a supreme being, regardless of centuries of belief and billions of believers. Only you young atheists "hold any sort of real education". And you feel it is your duty to oppose my beliefs at every opportunity.

Well my God teaches tolerance (clearly I am not Muslim, but that's another thread...) So I will pray for you. I will pray that God forgives you. I will pray for the repose of your soul, "for they know not what they do."

I could have sworn I just said Atheists don't know ****. My point was that neither side knows ****, you guys just make a very enormous guess and expect us to all blelieve it through faith.

The reason I made a statement about education is because most of the world's population are not educated, thanks mainly to Asia / Africa.

nnjj112255kkllo9
06-11-2007, 08:47 AM
Ah, another young buck entertaining us with his worldly wisdom and research, and he feels that only he (and his fellow atheists) are educated and wise enough to eschew the existence of a supreme being, regardless of centuries of belief and billions of believers. Only you young atheists "hold any sort of real education". And you feel it is your duty to oppose my beliefs at every opportunity.

Well my God teaches tolerance (clearly I am not Muslim, but that's another thread...) So I will pray for you. I will pray that God forgives you. I will pray for the repose of your soul, "for they know not what they do."

How many times have you read the bible? How much have you studied church history? How much have you studied ancient religions (such as the gnostics)?

I love how you uneducated folk call people who have studied the matter, have degrees in it, etc... uneducated

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 08:48 AM
I am against abortion after their 42nd day as a fetus as this is the day the average fetus has their first brain wave. I believe it is alive when it has a brain wave.

So riddle me this, Physicist: say I shoot your pregnant wife in the belly at 41 days. She lives, but the fetus dies. Am I guilty of murder?

nnjj112255kkllo9
06-11-2007, 08:51 AM
So riddle me this, Physicist: say I shoot your pregnant wife in the belly at 41 days. She lives, but the fetus dies. Am I guilty of murder?

I am not technically a Physicist, and never claimed to be one. Maybe a research scientist, but i'm not trying to toot my horn. You just questioned by credentials, so I explained.
Also, no you would not be guilty of murder, just assault/ attempted murder...

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 08:57 AM
How many times have you read the bible? How much have you studied church history? How much have you studied ancient religions (such as the gnostics)?

I love how you uneducated folk call people who have studied the matter, have degrees in it, etc... uneducated

What makes you think I am uneducated, professor? I have more education than you, and much more experience. I went to a Jesuit school, I've studied advanced theology, and have participated in many lively debates like this one with bible scholars. What is your point?

And I'm not so sure I believe your resume. You've committed many grave grammatical and spelling errors, and you were so proud of that childish "little g, big L" crap. I am not impressed.

MediaDeit
06-11-2007, 08:57 AM
i simply do not understand the concept of "might equals right." why is god equated with absolute morality? why does having great power and intelligence mean that you're right about everything? i mean, look at the iq levels of some individuals with power. they are very intelligent, and yet, their morality goes against that of many religions, and most would agree that these are "morally corrupt" people. hitler was a smart, powerful man. are you telling me his moral system is better than that of someone with less power and intelligence? how does power make someone a good moral authority? how does intelligence do the same thing?

Throughout modern history god has been associated with "good" and the creater of earth, therefore it goes somewhat hand in hand to him being right. I am sure if the original question was "If some mystical being told you to cook your family would you?" people wouldn't, but the question specifically said god, and in society that is representative of all good.

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 09:02 AM
Sometimes, I start thinking to myself "the human race really isn't so bad".

And then I'm exposed to the religious\authoritarian mindset so proudly displayed here.

Which then reminds me that 90% of the world population thinks this way.

Hmm, so the 90% of the world population that has a religious mindset makes you think "the human race really isn't so bad". I agree. I'm sure the other 10% didn't do it...

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 09:12 AM
Well kids, it's time for me to go to bed. Play nice!

Out.

1dayIWillBeBig
06-11-2007, 10:26 AM
Or it could be Satan pretending to be God and you just cooked your ****ing family by being tricked!!!

Murderers.

Quintis Vindex
06-11-2007, 11:17 AM
Or it could be Satan pretending to be God and you just cooked your ****ing family by being tricked!!!

Murderers.

That would be worthy of a 'pwnt' pic.

honeybbqgrundle
06-11-2007, 12:05 PM
God told me to tell people who would cook their families that they're idiots. God is always right.

Is that like some sort of super domination fetish or something? Dominate me god! Order me around!!! Make me do bad things!!! YES!

Pretty sick.

PickItUp
06-11-2007, 12:17 PM
The problem with your scenario is that people (crazy people especially) have voices running through their heads.

If anyone was SURE that God Himself was asking him to cook his family, I am sure that 99% of the humans would eagerly do so...

The problem is that sometimes, God turns out to be a paranoid schizophrenic voice from one of the multiple personalities...

Monkey Helmet
06-11-2007, 12:29 PM
"You would cook your family... but you're not....crazy???"

You basically just trapped her so I hardly see how this is fair. If she said no then you'd label her as a Christian who only follows the parts of the Bible that cater to her like most of the atheists here do. If she said yes, which she did, you'd say she's crazy for butchering her own family. The problem here is that you posed a scenario that would never happen. So if you're crazy enough to ask her about some spiritual being telling her to kill her family then is her response of "yes" that much crazier?

JAGERBOY
06-11-2007, 12:30 PM
I think that the theists in here are assuming that a god would have to be good just because it created everything. You have to ask yourself, why would an all powerful, eternal being create the universe anyways? It wasn't for our own good, so it must have been for his. This implies that we were created simply to please him, not out of kindness. We didnt exist, so we didnt ask to be created. And then we are required to live by all these preset rules or we might end up in hell. Alot of people have to suffer painful lives as well. So, if we have an eternal being, that created us simply to please him, and he is willing to banish us to eternal hell....what makes you think that something he asked you to do couldn't be for purely sadistic and evil reasons?

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 12:38 PM
Would you cook your family if your God told you to?

Of course.

Hebrews 11: 17-19:
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

Ultimately, I know that even if God told me to cook my family, there would be a reason for such.

honeybbqgrundle
06-11-2007, 01:28 PM
I think that the theists in here are assuming that a god would have to be good just because it created everything. You have to ask yourself, why would an all powerful, eternal being create the universe anyways? It wasn't for our own good, so it must have been for us. This implies that we were created simply to please him, not out of kindness. We didnt exist, so we didnt ask to be created. And then we are required to live by all these preset rules or we might end up in hell. Alot of people have to suffer painful lives as well. So, if we have an eternal being, that created us simply to please him, and he is willing to banish us to eternal hell....what makes you think that something he asked you to do couldn't be for purely sadistic and evil reasons?

Not to mention that you would have to wonder what kind of god would order someone to do something like that, knowing how heinous it is. Although I shouldn't say you would "have to wonder", because as evidenced by this thread, some people wouldn't think twice about it.

What kind of twisted abomination would ask such a thing, and what kind of subservient coward would do it?

Quintis Vindex
06-11-2007, 01:31 PM
Not to mention that you would have to wonder what kind of god would order someone to do something like that, knowing how heinous it is. Although I shouldn't say you would "have to wonder", because as evidenced by this thread, some people wouldn't think twice about it.

What kind of twisted abomination would ask such a thing, and what kind of subservient coward would do it?

The kind who are desperate to believe in something.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 01:31 PM
The original question is so far-fetched and stupid that it hardly merits any response. Someone mentioned Abraham and Isaac as a reference. How people who are supposedly thinking, rational in their own eyes, educated and far to intelligent to believe in a God or anything spiritual can make the farcical analogies that they do in this miscellaneous section is beyond belief. To seperate the reference from the age in which it took place is stupidity itself. Abraham lived in an age when child sacrifice was not an uncommon thing. Babies were sacrificed and placed in the walls of a building newly constructed to garner the blessings of a myriad of gods believed in at that time. The 21st century's abhorance for such practices finds it unfathomable. That is what existed at the time. For God to present to Abraham such a demand would have been nothing out of the ordinary for him. He had witnessed it or had been aware of it all of his life. It is what existed. As a test of Abraham's dedication and faithfulness, the whole scenario was an examination of this man who was called out to be the forebear of something new, radically different. Abraham was as ignorant about this "voice" that he had heard as the day is long. His entire life was a process of learning who this God was, what he represented. God tested Abraham in the only way that he could. Abraham was a product of his age, his time. To make analogies today regarding the Bible, or Christianity, by simply cherry picking a scripture from the Old Testament is the height of ignorance. It is to expose oneself as a complete idiot. It amazes me that so many gleefully do it on a daily basis in this forum. Whether you believe the Bible to be the word of God, or whether you believe that God exists, I would think that before one "spouts" off about something that they would have more than a very rudimentary understanding of it.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 01:35 PM
Not to mention that you would have to wonder what kind of god would order someone to do something like that, knowing how heinous it is. Although I shouldn't say you would "have to wonder", because as evidenced by this thread, some people wouldn't think twice about it.

What kind of twisted abomination would ask such a thing, and what kind of subservient coward would do it?

I rest my case!!! Such ignorance is amazing. I think today that God might ask someone like you to give up their I-pod, or perhaps their new NIKE tennis shoes.

JAGERBOY
06-11-2007, 01:46 PM
I rest my case!!! Such ignorance is amazing. I think today that God might ask someone like you to give up their I-pod, or perhaps their new NIKE tennis shoes.

Ok, you have my curiousity. Why, back then, would god order such a LARGE sacrifice like someones child as opposed to today? Whats different now?

basement iron
06-11-2007, 01:52 PM
I call BS on everyone who says they would do it.

Hell I bet some of you would never even mention anything so ridiculous to anyone if your family.


Whoever said yes do this...........

Get a video camera, tell your family on tape that you would cook, kill, whatever way of harming them if what you believed to be your god told you to do it. Ask them for thoughts. Get it all on video, post it, use youtube and then link it here. I would be interested in seeing their reactions.

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 02:02 PM
Ok, you have my curiousity. Why, back then, would god order such a LARGE sacrifice like someones child as opposed to today? Whats different now?

I would assume people back then loved their children as much as they do now. Although albeit peoples expecations of life in ancient Asia Minor weren't what they are today; children died all the time. Still, I would think the familial bond would be just as strong.

I don't think it's unapplicable that God would ask somebody from today to sacrifice their child. However, the relevant part is that God wouldn't ask someone to truly do that without cause. If you read my scriptural passage from a few posts up, you'll see that Abraham had faith in God despite even asking him to sacrifice his own child, and he reasoned that God could surely just bring him back even if he did end up sacrificing him.

Abraham raising his hand to sacrifice his own offspring was truly a beautiful example of trust. Trust in the fact that God knows what he is doing.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 02:07 PM
Ok, you have my curiousity. Why, back then, would god order such a LARGE sacrifice like someones child as opposed to today? Whats different now?

That is a surprising question for many reasons. For anyone to state that God told them to kill is diametrically opposed to scripture. God would never today, as a test of a believer's faith request that he kill another human being. It is the antithesis of everything that Christianity is and proports to be. "God is love." "Love your neighbor as yourself." Understand this is the "Christian" perspective. "Greater love has no man, but to lay down his life for another." The whole premise is absurd in the light of the New Testament writings. You deal with a 3 year old in quite a different manner than you deal with a 57 year old. To make comparisons of God's dealings with a people, culture, or race who lived thousands of years ago, with their mores, their understanding, their daily life experiences as compared with today is quite a stretch. That the precepts are the same, no doubt. That the method is different, there is no doubt. I can anticipate your next question, "What about war?" There are scriptures concerning a believer's responsibility to "civil, secular" government as well. In general; "Do all that you can to live peaceably with everyone!" That is a rough quote, but the essence is the same.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 02:15 PM
I don't deny that many "christians" do some pretty screwed up things. You have only to look at the David Koresh's of the world, or the Jonestown fiasco from years ago. If a believer is "grounded" in the word, knows it, not simply as a quote, but the spirit, the reality, the precept, then he or she will never find themselves being manipulated, coerced, and used by half crazed mad men who proport to be spiritual leaders. Anything that is supposedly divine, coming from God, must, has, to be "tested," for want of a better term. If it does not line up with the scripture, the precepts, then you can bet your bottom dollar that it didn't come from God. God will never ask anyone to do what is diametrically opposed to the written word.

JAGERBOY
06-11-2007, 02:21 PM
That is a surprising question for many reasons. For anyone to state that God told them to kill is diametrically opposed to scripture. God would never today, as a test of a believer's faith request that he kill another human being. It is the antithesis of everything that Christianity is and proports to be. "God is love." "Love your neighbor as yourself." Understand this is the "Christian" perspective. "Greater love has no man, but to lay down his life for another." The whole premise is absurd in the light of the New Testament writings. You deal with a 3 year old in quite a different manner than you deal with a 57 year old. To make comparisons of God's dealings with a people, culture, or race who lived thousands of years ago, with their mores, their understanding, their daily life experiences as compared with today is quite a stretch. That the precepts are the same, no doubt. That the method is different, there is no doubt. I can anticipate your next question, "What about war?" There are scriptures concerning a believer's responsibility to "civil, secular" government as well. In general; "Do all that you can to live peaceably with everyone!" That is a rough quote, but the essence is the same.

It doesn't matter what the NT says, its a hypothetical question, that most of the theists in here answered "YES" to without a blink of the eye.

And you still haven't answered my question directly. What SPECIFICALLY back then would make it ok for this sacrifice but not now? I dont want here anything about the NT being all about love, that is irrelevant to the hypothetical question. Especially since everyone is saying that God is the authority on morality, and that anything he says or does would be moral since he created it.

AKR
06-11-2007, 02:22 PM
Gee, I'm shaking in my boots.

why would you be shaking? i just want people to know which people would kill their family for god.

AKR
06-11-2007, 02:36 PM
So you're anti-abortion then? It would be a logical step, since killing someone who did nothing to you is not, according to you, logical.

I was also wondering how you got so smart at only 22 years old? I mean if there are billions and billions of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, et al., then how is it that you know more than all of them? Somehow, I envision you still being supported by your parents, and working in retail--probably Best Buy. Am I close?

negged. why are you making this personal? you're twice his age, and yet, you're resorting to personal attacks?

honeybbqgrundle
06-11-2007, 02:38 PM
I rest my case!!! Such ignorance is amazing. I think today that God might ask someone like you to give up their I-pod, or perhaps their new NIKE tennis shoes.

I'm ignorant to the fact that it's not heinous to kill your kids? Or ignorant to the fact that kids are roughly equivalent to sneakers in terms of value? I'm sure ignorant.

AKR
06-11-2007, 02:41 PM
I can see the point you're making but it still isn't the same thing. My point is, that God has DEFINATE knowledge/wisdom which IS 100% right no matter what I think. Rocket scientists however, are a) within the realms of my understanding. Even though I may not understand at the time, it is possible for me to understand over time b) the scientists do not have DEFINATE knowledge. They have some understanding about science obviously but it's only in relation to what they've tested.. it's not the absolute truth as God knows if that makes sense?

the problem is that you are ASSUMING one must contain absolute knowledge and wisdom in order to create the universe. as it is, we all evolved; the planet evolved; animals evolved; a god was not necessary to guide the expansion of the universe or the creation of our planet and all things on it. if there WAS a god, he could have played a very small part in the creation of the universe, and after that, it just went off and did it's own thing.

either way, even if god had consciously and purposefully guided every little thing, it is still an assumption that he knows everything. it's hard to argue with someone that already assumes that i accept a god would be all-wise, when that is part of the very thing we are arguing about the whole time.

AKR
06-11-2007, 02:43 PM
I think in order to understand my thinking you have to accept that God really is the greatest. He is responsible for everything and anything...

no, i understand your thinking, but i do not accept that it makes sense. i refuse to accept an idea that has not been proven.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 02:47 PM
The jist of the matter is this; God did not want, neither did he need the sacrifice of Isaac. In the light of who Abraham was, were he came from, his understanding, his "mind," it was the ultimate "test" for Abraham. God had no intention to "recieve" the life of a child as a sacrifice. It was neither his desire or intent. To test the faithfulness of a "cretan" so to speak, God used the only process by which he could. Keep in mind that Abraham was not the "Father of may nations" at this juncture. He was not yet the forbear of 3 world religions. Whether you believe any of that or not. He was as ignorant as anyone could concievably be vis a vis God, who He was, what He was. It would be have been antithetical then, just as it is today, for God to recieve a child sacrifice at the hands of a supposed believer. The ram was caught in the thicket, I would imagine that it had been there all the time. Before God ever put Abraham to the test, he had provided the sacrifice that He was willing to recieve. That so many on this thread have stated so quickly that they would is only indicative of their lack of knowledge and understanding concernng the scripture and for that matter, God. I suspect that they only desire to show that they believe in him, and would want to follow him regardless of the circumstance.

AKR
06-11-2007, 02:49 PM
Ah, another young buck entertaining us with his worldly wisdom and research, and he feels that only he (and his fellow atheists) are educated and wise enough to eschew the existence of a supreme being, regardless of centuries of belief and billions of believers. Only you young atheists "hold any sort of real education". And you feel it is your duty to oppose my beliefs at every opportunity.

Well my God teaches tolerance (clearly I am not Muslim, but that's another thread...) So I will pray for you. I will pray that God forgives you. I will pray for the repose of your soul, "for they know not what they do."

nice shot at muslims. your religious also teaches some nasty things.

AKR
06-11-2007, 02:50 PM
Throughout modern history god has been associated with "good" and the creater of earth, therefore it goes somewhat hand in hand to him being right. I am sure if the original question was "If some mystical being told you to cook your family would you?" people wouldn't, but the question specifically said god, and in society that is representative of all good.

lol, that's rediculous. so, if there is a creator of the universe and he is bad, then he's not god because of the connotation you have for him? complete nonsense.

Raidersfan13
06-11-2007, 02:53 PM
So I was talking to this girl that I've know for years. Normal nice girl, with a good sense of humour and not exactly a square if you know what I mean. We started getting into a religious discussion. I knew she believed in god, but I didn't know exactly how religious she was about it. She thought the mormon religion was a lie and she mentioned that the Christian bible was flawless;which she maintained even after I revealed several contradictions(any story that has a contradiction must have not been meant to be taken literally, and any logical contradiction was avoided in some way).

So I asked her more as a joke, "If your god told you to literally cook your family...would you do it?" She answered, as seriously as could be "Of course." I took a second, waited for her to laugh or otherwise reveal her sarcasm. "Are you serious?" I ask. She affirms and adds "It sounds wierd to say, but I'm not crazy or anything..."

"You would cook your family... but you're not....crazy???"

Have any of you come across normal people in your lives that seem like normal people but are actually absolutely fuking bonkers???

If it wasnt like some schizophrenic dream or something, and God actually came down to me in real life and told me to cook my family, yea I would do it. I would even sacrifice myself in a heartbeat if God asked me to. I have faith that whatever God does is for the ultimate good, and everything has a reason for it.

AKR
06-11-2007, 02:56 PM
The jist of the matter is this; God did not want, neither did he need the sacrifice of Isaac. In the light of who Abraham was, were he came from, his understanding, his "mind," it was the ultimate "test" for Abraham. God had no intention to "recieve" the life of a child as a sacrifice. It was neither his desire or intent. To test the faithfulness of a "cretan" so to speak, God used the only process by which he could.


so, god's too stupid to know if abe would do it without actually testing him? doesn't seem like a very smart god, and it seems a bit insecure. "gee, i wonder if this guy would kill his son for me. that would make me feel so special if he did."



Keep in mind that Abraham was not the "Father of may nations" at this juncture. He was not yet the forbear of 3 world religions. Whether you believe any of that or not. He was as ignorant as anyone could concievably be vis a vis God, who He was, what He was. It would be have been antithetical then, just as it is today, for God to recieve a child sacrifice at the hands of a supposed believer. The ram was caught in the thicket, I would imagine that it had been there all the time. Before God ever put Abraham to the test, he had provided the sacrifice that He was willing to recieve. That so many on this thread have stated so quickly that they would is only indicative of their lack of knowledge and understanding concernng the scripture and for that matter, God. I suspect that they only desire to show that they believe in him, and would want to follow him regardless of the circumstance.

actually, the bible has rules about stoning disobedient children and girls who are not virgins on their wedding night. and then there's times when god wants his people to slaughter men, women, and children for him. seems pretty clear to me that god wants people to be killed for him.

JAGERBOY
06-11-2007, 02:56 PM
This thread is the epitomy of what brainwashed means. Wow.


:unsubscribes:

AKR
06-11-2007, 02:57 PM
? After all, God spoke to them.

prove it.

AKR
06-11-2007, 02:59 PM
The problem is that sometimes, God turns out to be a paranoid schizophrenic.

no need to finish that sentence. this sentence is more accurate of some gods.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 03:00 PM
I'm ignorant to the fact that it's not heinous to kill your kids? Or ignorant to the fact that kids are roughly equivalent to sneakers in terms of value? I'm sure ignorant.

In general, you seem to be quite ignorant in regards to just about everything. Some posts are related. You read one to make heads or tails out of the next one on the board. You seem to make the same mistake while reading the miscellaneous section as you do with the Old Testament.

AKR
06-11-2007, 03:09 PM
I call BS on everyone who says they would do it.

Hell I bet some of you would never even mention anything so ridiculous to anyone if your family.


Whoever said yes do this...........

Get a video camera, tell your family on tape that you would cook, kill, whatever way of harming them if what you believed to be your god told you to do it. Ask them for thoughts. Get it all on video, post it, use youtube and then link it here. I would be interested in seeing their reactions.

lol, I SECOND THIS. this would be awesome. do it during dinner. if you people would have no problem doing it, then you shouldn't have a problem telling your family, if you're so sure of yourself.

Quintis Vindex
06-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Their families should fully support it - god's will and all.

AKR
06-11-2007, 03:15 PM
Their families should fully support it - god's will and all.

yes, they'll hopefully support it until they clear the dinner table of all silverware, and then call the men in white.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 03:15 PM
so, god's too stupid to know if abe would do it without actually testing him? doesn't seem like a very smart god, and it seems a bit insecure. "gee, i wonder if this guy would kill his son for me. that would make me feel so special if he did."



actually, the bible has rules about stoning disobedient children and girls who are not virgins on their wedding night. and then there's times when god wants his people to slaughter men, women, and children for him. seems pretty clear to me that god wants people to be killed for him.

I think the whole process was rather more related to Abraham than to God. For one to learn about oneself, you often are pulled through a knot hole backwards. That's just human nature. As far as "slaughter" in your reference, you speak of the Law, a very distict "dispensation" in time. And if you were "aware," as you seem to believe yourself to be, then you would certainly be knowledgeable of the circumstances surrounding those peoples who found themselves under such an indictment. That your sensibilities are offended is somewhat surprising. As "cool" and intelligent of a person as you are.

Couldbebigga
06-11-2007, 03:20 PM
But don't you understand.. if you accept that God created everything, then you must also accept that He CREATED morality. He created everything that you are and dicates how you feel and all your emotions.

It almost seems as though you percieve God as a creation within the boundaries of this universe.. like He's just a smarter being or something who is still tied down by human emotions/thoughts/reasoning. What you have to try to understand is that God is outside the boundaries of this... He's not tied down by human emotions/feelings as He created them - He created everything so His thought processes (if He even has 'thoughts'?) are so vastly superior to ours.. inconceivably so..

Everything he tries to teach you in his book should stop you from killing your family if he asks you. The mere fact that he asked you should alert to to either of two things, 1. he's testing you and the correct reponse is to say no, 2. He's farking demented and not worth worshipping.

honeybbqgrundle
06-11-2007, 03:32 PM
In general, you seem to be quite ignorant in regards to just about everything. Some posts are related. You read one to make heads or tails out of the next one on the board. You seem to make the same mistake while reading the miscellaneous section as you do with the Old Testament.

So I'm ignorant about god I guess. I just thought that he was all knowing and wouldn't need to test someone to see what he would do. That guy sure is confusing, and you can make another long post referencing the bible or the different cultures, but it still doesn't explain away the simple fact that it makes no sense.

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 03:36 PM
So I'm ignorant about god I guess. I just thought that he was all knowing and wouldn't need to test someone to see what he would do. That guy sure is confusing, and you can make another long post referencing the bible or the different cultures, but it still doesn't explain away the simple fact that it makes no sense.

paolo already explained that it was for Abraham's benefit, not God's. Of course God knew how Abraham would react to his test. By your reasoning, since God shouldn't test anybody because he already knows how we will react to the test, then life on Earth in itself should never take place.

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 03:38 PM
paolo already explained that it was for Abraham's benefit, not God's. Of course God knew how Abraham would react to his test. By your reasoning, since God shouldn't test anybody because he already knows how we will react to the test, then life on Earth in itself should never take place.

Doesn't seem like a very loving way to test someone, no matter who it's "for."

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 03:41 PM
Doesn't seem like a very loving way to test someone, no matter who it's "for."

Sure it is. What better way to show your faith and love and trust in God then to lay down your own child's life for Him? It's one of the most beautiful passages in the Bible.

honeybbqgrundle
06-11-2007, 03:42 PM
By your reasoning, since God shouldn't test anybody because he already knows how we will react to the test, then life on Earth in itself should never take place.

Well, yeah that does seem to follow quite logically. Why would you create something if you already know everything there is to know? What IS the point of making us? That should be a fundamental theological question.

Anyway, I don't want to get dragged into discussing Abraham or the bible because believers will twist it to suit their needs. The original question was whether somebody would cook their family if god asked them, and some people answered honestly and others tried to brush it aside by saying it would never happen (they must be god to be so sure).

paolo59
06-11-2007, 03:42 PM
Am I mistaken, isn't the whole purpose of a test to find out what the person taking the test knows? I didn't think it had anything to do with what the person giving the test knows!

whatitbe223
06-11-2007, 03:42 PM
No.

My family is much more important to me then God, an education, my health and everything else.

honeybbqgrundle
06-11-2007, 03:44 PM
Am I mistaken, isn't the whole purpose of a test to find out what the person taking the test knows? I didn't think it had anything to do with what the person giving the test knows!

An omniscient test maker would already know what the taker knows.

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 03:47 PM
Sure it is. What better way to show your faith and love and trust in God then to lay down your own child's life for them? It's one of the most beautiful passages in the Bible.

What better way to be a loving and guiding god then to scare the sh*t out of your worshippers and most likely leave them scarred for life.

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 03:49 PM
Well, yeah that does seem to follow quite logically. Why would you create something if you already know everything there is to know? What IS the point of making us? That should be a fundamental theological question.

Anyway, I don't want to get dragged into discussing Abraham or the bible because believers will twist it to suit their needs. The original question was whether somebody would cook their family if god asked them, and some people answered honestly and others tried to brush it aside by saying it would never happen (they must be god to be so sure).

Well once again, the testing is done for our knowledge and sake, not God's. Abraham's faith was justified when it was put into works. i.e.- putting your money where your mouth (or heart) is.

James 2: 21-22:
Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

God may be omniscient, but we aren't.

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 03:49 PM
Well, yeah that does seem to follow quite logically. Why would you create something if you already know everything there is to know? What IS the point of making us? That should be a fundamental theological question.

I'd like to know some Christian viewpoints on this as well.


Anyway, I don't want to get dragged into discussing Abraham or the bible because believers will twist it to suit their needs.

The sign of a solid religion - "black" means "I'm right," "white" means "I'm right." Yay, no matter what happens I am right, this is proof! ;)

DaCougarMech
06-11-2007, 03:50 PM
it's a tough choice
on one hand, you have your own morals where you dont want to kill your family, and who is god to say that you are wrong?
on the other hand, some part of you believes that since he exists, you ARE wrong and killing your family somehow is right
but as someone said before, i wouldnt do it because i would think that i had gone crazy to hear voices and see visions

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 03:50 PM
Well once again, the testing is done for our knowledge and sake, not God's. Abraham's faith was justified when it was put into works. i.e.- putting your money where your mouth (or heart) is.

God may be omniscient, but we aren't.

But unfortunately, he is not powerful enough to justify people's faith without misery.

AKR
06-11-2007, 03:51 PM
I think the whole process was rather more related to Abraham than to God. For one to learn about oneself, you often are pulled through a knot hole backwards. That's just human nature. As far as "slaughter" in your reference, you speak of the Law, a very distict "dispensation" in time. And if you were "aware," as you seem to believe yourself to be, then you would certainly be knowledgeable of the circumstances surrounding those peoples who found themselves under such an indictment. That your sensibilities are offended is somewhat surprising. As "cool" and intelligent of a person as you are.

you can say it was for abe, but it still seems to me like a twisted, egotistical test. if i was a leader with great power, i would never ask someone to do something that contradicted my laws, in order to show them that they would do anything for me. that would actually scare me, and i would not bless someone so blindly obedient, that they would do anything, even if it was against my philosophy and law, and even if it meant killing one's own child. that would not bring me happiness.


IMO, there are no "circumstances" that justify the killing of innocent children. none. ever.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 03:51 PM
An omniscient test maker would already know what the taker knows.

Silly boy, a test exists to reveal to the "tested" what they still lack in knowledge and understanding. It is a tool expressly designed for the benefit of the person taking it. It's purpose is not simply to assign a grade! You must be the product of overcrowded public schools!

AKR
06-11-2007, 03:52 PM
By your reasoning, since God shouldn't test anybody because he already knows how we will react to the test, then life on Earth in itself should never take place.

i agree!

AKR
06-11-2007, 03:55 PM
Sure it is. What better way to show your faith and love and trust in God then to lay down your own child's life for them? It's one of the most beautiful passages in the Bible.

lol, oh so sigable. added! i sure hope you don't have kids. that would indeed be frightening.

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 03:55 PM
I'd like to know some Christian viewpoints on this as well.


Going further with my above post, as I already said, God test us for our knowledge, not his. Solomon speaks of it in that exact manner:

Ecclesiastes 3: 18:
I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals.

AKR
06-11-2007, 03:58 PM
Going further with my above post, as I already said, God test us for our knowledge, not his. Solomon speaks of it in that exact manner:

Ecclesiastes 3: 18:
I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals.

haha, and then after he proves it, he rewards them with being the father of many nations.

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 03:59 PM
What better way to be a loving and guiding god then to scare the sh*t out of your worshippers and most likely leave them scarred for life.

Scarred from what?

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 04:00 PM
lol, oh so sigable. added! .

Please change the "them" in my quote to "Him", I made a grammatical error.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 04:03 PM
you can say it was for abe, but it still seems to me like a twisted, egotistical test. if i was a leader with great power, i would never ask someone to do something that contradicted my laws, in order to show them that they would do anything for me. that would actually scare me, and i would not bless someone so blindly obedient, that they would do anything, even if it was against my philosophy and law, and even if it meant killing one's own child. that would not bring me happiness.


IMO, there are no "circumstances" that justify the killing of innocent children. none. ever.

I think the focus was enabling Abraham to realize that he trusted in God implicitly. You still don't seem to follow or comprehend. Part of the realization therefore was that God would never have required him to take the life of his own son. You seem to as well ignore the fact that the whole scenario is allegorical. God did in fact sacrifice his son. He did what he never intended Abraham to do. The scripture is layered and woven. One thing speaks in veiled terms, and often, not so veiled terms, of another. Your inability to recognize this is not in the least surprising. I don't care whether you believe or don't believe. Your ranting against something that you truly don't even begin to comprehend is puzzling. Let us "ignorant" folk continue in our delusions. You just remain seated in your high seat of reason and enlightenment.

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 04:04 PM
Scarred from what?

If you thought you were about to murder your own child, even if you didn't have to in the end, don't you think you'd be just a tad traumatized?

AKR
06-11-2007, 04:04 PM
Scarred from what?

it usually freaks a kid out when you almost slit their throat with a knife and burn them on an alter.

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 04:06 PM
Going further with my above post, as I already said, God test us for our knowledge, not his. Solomon speaks of it in that exact manner:

Ecclesiastes 3: 18:
I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals.

I was referring to this, from honeybbqgrundle: "What IS the point of making us? That should be a fundamental theological question."

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 04:07 PM
I think the focus was enabling Abraham to realize that he trusted in God implicitly. You still don't seem to follow or comprehend. Part of the realization therefore was that God would never have required him to take the life of his own son. You seem to as well ignore the fact that the whole scenario is allegorical. God did in fact sacrifice his son. He did what he never intended Abraham to do. The scripture is layered and woven. One thing speaks in veiled terms, and often, not so veiled terms, of another. Your inability to recognize this is not in the least surprising. I don't care whether you believe or don't believe. Your ranting against something that you truly don't even begin to comprehend is puzzling. Let us "ignorant" folk continue in our delusions. You just remain seated in your high seat of reason and enlightenment.

If god is so great and smart, why does he have to torture people for them to realize their faith and his greatness?

AKR
06-11-2007, 04:08 PM
I think the focus was enabling Abraham to realize that he trusted in God implicitly. You still don't seem to follow or comprehend. Part of the realization therefore was that God would never have required him to take the life of his own son. You seem to as well ignore the fact that the whole scenario is allegorical. God did in fact sacrifice his son. He did what he never intended Abraham to do. The scripture is layered and woven. One thing speaks in veiled terms, and often, not so veiled terms, of another. Your inability to recognize this is not in the least surprising. I don't care whether you believe or don't believe. Your ranting against something that you truly don't even begin to comprehend is puzzling. Let us "ignorant" folk continue in our delusions. You just remain seated in your high seat of reason and enlightenment.

the majority of your posts to me are overflowing with insults, but I'M the one on the high seat. don't worry, there's nothing i can do to keep you and your kind from your delusions. one cannot reason with the delusional.

honeybbqgrundle
06-11-2007, 04:12 PM
Silly boy, a test exists to reveal to the "tested" what they still lack in knowledge and understanding. It is a tool expressly designed for the benefit of the person taking it. It's purpose is not simply to assign a grade! You must be the product of overcrowded public schools!

But you said above that the purpose is to find out what the test taker knows. It's absolutely amazing how someone can twist a man being asked to murder his own son for someone else's ego into some kind of loving act. How does that even happen? You must be the product of religious indoctrination.

Couldbebigga
06-11-2007, 04:14 PM
But you said above that the purpose is to find out what the test taker knows. It's absolutely amazing how someone can twist a man being asked to murder his own son for someone else's ego into some kind of loving act. How does that even happen? You must be the product of religious indoctrination.

It's like the excuse a wife beater uses. "I beat you to teach you a lesson! It was the only way!"

paolo59
06-11-2007, 04:16 PM
the majority of your posts to me are overflowing with insults, but I'M the one on the high seat. don't worry, there's nothing i can do to keep you and your kind from your delusions. one cannot reason with the delusional.

Forgive me, I'm unaware of any insults. That I disagree with you completely, yes, that I think you are somewhat "self righteous" in your own percieved intelligence, yes. That the majority of what you say concerning anyone of faith is that they are ignorant, uneducated, inconcievably simple minded, and in need of a keeper, yes, that is my perception of you. I don't know how I could come to any other conclusion. If you are insulted, I'm very sorry.

AKR
06-11-2007, 04:22 PM
Forgive me, I'm unaware of any insults. That I disagree with you completely, yes, that I think you are somewhat "self righteous" in your own percieved intelligence, yes. That the majority of what you say concerning anyone of faith is that they are ignorant, uneducated, inconcievably simple minded, and in need of a keeper, yes, that is my perception of you. I don't know how I could come to any other conclusion. If you are insulted, I'm very sorry.

i don't deny your general impression of me, but you are clearly a passive-aggressive individual. but i'm not looking for a flame war. we can just agree to disagree.

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 04:24 PM
it usually freaks a kid out when you almost slit their throat with a knife and burn them on an alter.

Isaac had faith just as Abraham had faith.


If you thought you were about to murder your own child, even if you didn't have to in the end, don't you think you'd be just a tad traumatized?

No, I wouldnt' be traumatized, because I should never be worried about it in the first place, just as Abraham was never worried about it in the first place. Abraham never worried about actually losing his child, because he had faith in God. Even if he did end up sacrificing him, he had confidence that God could bring him back.

Hebrews 11: 17-19:
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

This is what seperate me from you. The reason I say I would sacrfice my family if God asked me to is because I trust that God would not wish any harm on me or my family. I trust God with my family more than myself.

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 04:30 PM
Isaac had faith just as Abraham had faith.



No, I wouldnt' be traumatized, because I should never be worried about it in the first place, just as Abraham was never worried about it in the first place. Abraham never worried about actually losing his child, because he had faith in God. Even if he did end up sacrificing him, he had confidence that God could bring him back.

Hebrews 11: 17-19:
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

This is what seperate me from you. The reason I say I would sacrfice my family if God asked me to is because I trust that God would not wish any harm on me or my family. I trust God with my family more than myself.

You think you wouldn't be upset if you were having to go through that experience? Scary. I'm torn between anti-social personality disorder and schizophrenia.

So I trust you will be posting the video for us soon?

paolo59
06-11-2007, 04:35 PM
What stupidity! I've gone back through and read the posts on this thread. I find it incredible that supposedly educated individuals post the ignorant comments that they do. If you simply looked at this passage in scripture as literature, a "myth" as some believe, the obvious is so blatant and crytaline. Must I point it out? God was not anything similar to the gods that Abraham had worshipped in the past. The lesson learned was that this "voice" represented something that Abraham had heretofore never known or experienced. To "unlearn" all that Abraham knew to be a god, he was tested. You are tested in something that you have already studied, something that you are already to some extent familiar with. The lesson was clear. The understanding complete. God did not need a sacrifice of Abraham's sons or daughters. He did not require the blood of children. He was not what Abraham had known a god to be. You bring one to knowledge based on what they already know. Sometimes you bring them to that knowledge kicking and screaming.

AKR
06-11-2007, 04:35 PM
Isaac had faith just as Abraham had faith.


really? is that why abe lied to get isaac up there? sure, he had faith in his dad, but it was a flawed faith, since his dad was planning on MURDERING HIS OWN SON AND BURNING HIS BODY. he had faith in his dad, who lied to him. how exactly would that make him less scarred? ****, if my dad lied to me in order to murder me, and then didn't go through with it, you can be sure i'd never show up to another family dinner.




No, I wouldnt' be traumatized, because I should never be worried about it in the first place, just as Abraham was never worried about it in the first place. Abraham never worried about actually losing his child, because he had faith in God. Even if he did end up sacrificing him, he had confidence that God could bring him back.

Hebrews 11: 17-19:
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

um, this isn't about abe's confidence. this is about the psychological scarring of a son. how abe felt is completely irrelevant.


also, the idea that god could bring him back still doesn't take away from the fact that he slit his sons throat and caused him great fear and pain (IF he had killed him).







This is what seperate me from you. The reason I say I would sacrfice my family if God asked me to is because I trust that God would not wish any harm on me or my family. I trust God with my family more than myself.

that simply doesn't make any sense. you'd kill your family because you don't believe god would not wish harm on you.........hmmmm, aaalriiiiiight.

there's a hell of a lot more that separates us.

AKR
06-11-2007, 04:40 PM
What stupdity!

quoted for irony. not only did you misspell an insult of intelligence, but you just said moments ago:


I'm unaware of any insults.

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 04:43 PM
You think you wouldn't be upset if you were having to go through that experience? Scary. I'm torn between anti-social personality disorder and schizophrenia.

It would be testing, obviously, but scarring? Of course not.


So I trust you will be posting the video for us soon?

Of?

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 04:44 PM
...To "unlearn" all that Abraham knew to be a god, he was tested. You are tested in something that you have already studied, something that you are already to some extent familiar with. The lesson was clear. The understanding complete. God did not need a sacrifice of Abraham's sons or daughters. He did not require the blood of children. He was not what Abraham had known a god to be. You bring one to knowledge based on what they already know. Sometimes you bring them to that knowledge kicking and screaming.

But if god is so powerful, why does he have to bring them kicking and screaming? Why must he torture people in various ways, this being only one minor incident, in order for them to have faith and be saved? Why couldn't he teach Abraham without going about it that way? Try explaining it without anthropomorphizing your god, since he's supposed to be so much greater than humans.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 04:45 PM
quoted for irony. not only did you misspell an insult of intelligence, but you just said moments ago:

Hum? That's a stretch even for you!

LunicaAshes
06-11-2007, 04:49 PM
It would be testing, obviously, but scarring? Of course not.

If that wouldn't scar you, you frighten me.


Of?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=50504981&postcount=77

AKR
06-11-2007, 04:51 PM
Hum? That's a stretch even for you!

and once again, your passive-aggressive tendies shine through.

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 04:53 PM
If that wouldn't scar you, you frighten me.

:cool:


http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=50504981&postcount=77

Sorry, my family isn't around anymore <twitch> They had to go away <twitch> They are in the oven sleeping right now. <twitch> We doesn't want to wakes them up, no we don't.

paolo59
06-11-2007, 05:04 PM
and once again, your passive-aggressive tendies shine through.

LOL That is good! I just find it incredibly amazing that people make comments about things they have no understanding of. You are an easy one to read. Passive-agressive? Not really. Intolerant of stupidity? Yes. And by the way, you have no idea whether I believe the Bible to be the "divine word of God" or not. It is always good to be able to argue both sides of any question.

fkn_give_me_abs
06-11-2007, 05:29 PM
No, I wouldnt' be traumatized, because I should never be worried about it in the first place, just as Abraham was never worried about it in the first place. Abraham never worried about actually losing his child, because he had faith in God. Even if he did end up sacrificing him, he had confidence that God could bring him back.

what exactly was the test of trust and faith then???

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 05:37 PM
what exactly was the test of trust and faith then???

That was the test. He had faith in God, even when asked to give up his son. Abraham knew God would keep his promise, so he kept his trust in God to the very end, as opposed to jumping to the conclusion of "God wants me to kill my child!" as some people would.

Weightaholic
06-11-2007, 05:40 PM
I went to a Jesuit school, I've studied advanced theology, and have participated in many lively debates like this one with bible scholars.

Wow. An education like that qualifies you for... the unemployment line?

SteR. You're arguing that god is right because he's all powerful. This is an erroneous assumption. Might does NOT make right.

rlanicek
06-11-2007, 05:56 PM
Wow. An education like that qualifies you for... the unemployment line?


Nice selective editing. Read it in context.

honeybbqgrundle
06-11-2007, 06:42 PM
as opposed to jumping to the conclusion of "God wants me to kill my child!" as some people would.

Why would somebody in a situation where god wants him to kill his child possibly jump to that conclusion?

paolo59
06-11-2007, 07:32 PM
Wow. An education like that qualifies you for... the unemployment line?

SteR. You're arguing that god is right because he's all powerful. This is an erroneous assumption. Might does NOT make right.

The unemployment line? How many languages do you speak? Greek, Latin? Perhaps Aramaic? I would imagine that a "proper Jesuit" education would enable the man to teach on practically any university campus in the nation.
Whether you agree with him or not, I rather doubt that in your lifetime you will achieve the academic levels of the gentleman you so easily berate.

Beatitude
06-11-2007, 07:36 PM
Why would somebody in a situation where god wants him to kill his child possibly jump to that conclusion?

:cool:

Because they don't trust in the holiness of God, as Abraham did.

MediaDeit
06-11-2007, 09:43 PM
lol, that's rediculous. so, if there is a creator of the universe and he is bad, then he's not god because of the connotation you have for him? complete nonsense.

What do you mean it is nonesense? Go ask any believer in god and ask them if god(or what ever they beleive in) is representative of all good.

You didn't understand my post, I didn't say god does/doesn't exist nor did I say if he is good or evil. I just pointed out that the people who believe in him, by far and large associate god with "good"

AKR
06-11-2007, 10:05 PM
That was the test. He had faith in God, even when asked to give up his son. Abraham knew God would keep his promise, so he kept his trust in God to the very end, as opposed to jumping to the conclusion of "God wants me to kill my child!" as some people would.

so, if i understand you correctly, you WOULDN'T actually kill your family for god. you're just saying that you'd pretend to go along with it and you have faith that your god will pull out at the last minute. you call his bluff. correct?

AKR
06-11-2007, 10:11 PM
What do you mean it is nonesense? Go ask any believer in god and ask them if god(or what ever they beleive in) is representative of all good.

You didn't understand my post, I didn't say god does/doesn't exist nor did I say if he is good or evil. I just pointed out that the people who believe in him, by far and large associate god with "good"

so what if they do? it still doesn't make it logical.

AKR
06-11-2007, 10:13 PM
LOL That is good! I just find it incredibly amazing that people make comments about things they have no understanding of. You are an easy one to read. Passive-agressive? Not really. Intolerant of stupidity? Yes.

:rolleyes:



And by the way, you have no idea whether I believe the Bible to be the "divine word of God" or not. It is always good to be able to argue both sides of any question.

no, it's not. it's pretty stupid to find value in arguing from the side of something you believe to be wrong. if you can argue well from either side, then you must not be very sure of yourself. and you have failed miserably in your attempt to argue from a religious perspective.

AKR
06-12-2007, 02:08 PM
bump. i want an answer from beatitude.

Nextstopearth
06-12-2007, 04:07 PM
Wow, I didn't expect this kind of response. Religion must truly be one of the most dangerous things we have made. I assume most of the religious people in this thread would not be considered extremist or fundamentalist, yet have a perfectly justifiable(in thier heads) excuse for murder.

This replacment of rational thought with submission is disconcerting. Almost all of the "cookers" didn't even question whether they were hallucinating, or if, I would think of them easier to accept, Satan had come to decieve them.

If we consider all the equivalent gods that we've made for ourselves and realize that only one could be true, if any, and that as it seems most normal religious people hold the same unquestioning submission for thier god, then we have most of the religious people of the world with a complete rationalization for murder.

Beatitude
06-12-2007, 04:28 PM
so, if i understand you correctly, you WOULDN'T actually kill your family for god. you're just saying that you'd pretend to go along with it and you have faith that your god will pull out at the last minute. you call his bluff. correct?

I have complete trust that even if it did go to the point of killing them, that there would be some reason for it unbeknowest to me. God created my family, just as he created me, so I trust him with my family more than me.

In the context of the question, which I'm assuming asks if you would kill your family for God simply because God had a whim to kill your family; I don't think it's an applicable scenerio since it is contradictory to the Creator.

Ezekiel 18: 31-32:
Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

2 Peter 3: 9:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Nor is God some sort of whimsical enmity of chaos:

Ezekiel 14: 23:
You will be consoled when you see their conduct and their actions, for you will know that I have done nothing in it without cause, declares the Sovereign LORD."

mlc82
06-12-2007, 05:16 PM
So I was talking to this girl that I've know for years. Normal nice girl, with a good sense of humour and not exactly a square if you know what I mean. We started getting into a religious discussion. I knew she believed in god, but I didn't know exactly how religious she was about it. She thought the mormon religion was a lie and she mentioned that the Christian bible was flawless;which she maintained even after I revealed several contradictions(any story that has a contradiction must have not been meant to be taken literally, and any logical contradiction was avoided in some way).

So I asked her more as a joke, "If your god told you to literally cook your family...would you do it?" She answered, as seriously as could be "Of course." I took a second, waited for her to laugh or otherwise reveal her sarcasm. "Are you serious?" I ask. She affirms and adds "It sounds wierd to say, but I'm not crazy or anything..."

"You would cook your family... but you're not....crazy???"

Have any of you come across normal people in your lives that seem like normal people but are actually absolutely fuking bonkers???


If I thought God was telling me to kill people I'd be a good citizen (and human being) and have myself committed.

Bread
06-12-2007, 05:56 PM
Are you familiar with the story of Abraham and Isaac?

I think if God really spoke to me, I would do whatever He said. I would never suppose that I am smarter than God.


True.

Thanks
Bread.

Couldbebigga
06-12-2007, 06:07 PM
What method would the people on here, agreeing to cook their family, use to determine if it was really god communicating with them?

Many people have killed their families and others because god told them to, but you look at those people as if they were crazy. How would YOU know that it was really god?

Bread
06-12-2007, 06:13 PM
Wow, I didn't expect this kind of response. Religion must truly be one of the most dangerous things we have made. I assume most of the religious people in this thread would not be considered extremist or fundamentalist, yet have a perfectly justifiable(in thier heads) excuse for murder.

This replacment of rational thought with submission is disconcerting. Almost all of the "cookers" didn't even question whether they were hallucinating, or if, I would think of them easier to accept, Satan had come to decieve them.

If we consider all the equivalent gods that we've made for ourselves and realize that only one could be true, if any, and that as it seems most normal religious people hold the same unquestioning submission for thier god, then we have most of the religious people of the world with a complete rationalization for murder.

"Religion must truly be one of the most dangerous things we have made", why is it if most religions encourage peace and love. The question was "if" God told you to cook your family. Gods revelation tells us different, thou shall not kill. And all believers of God know that if God met them and spoke, God would make it clearer then if i spoke with you personally, it would not be confused with some "hallucination". I would imagine this idea may be difficult to grasp since you have confessed your lack of faith.

You say "Then we have most of the religious people of the world with a complete rationalization for murder" but the truth is there is no religion which calls us to kill people let alone cook our family so there is no "rationalization for murder" by religious people.

Thanks.
Bread.

Couldbebigga
06-12-2007, 06:19 PM
"Religion must truly be one of the most dangerous things we have made", why is it if most religions encourage peace and love. The question was "if" God told you to cook your family. Gods revelation tells us different, thou shall not kill. And all believers of God know that if God met them and spoke, God would make it clearer then if i spoke with you personally, it would not be confused with some "hallucination". I would imagine this idea may be difficult to grasp since you have confessed your lack of faith.

You say "Then we have most of the religious people of the world with a complete rationalization for murder" but the truth is there is no religion which calls us to kill people let alone cook our family so there is no "rationalization for murder" by religious people.

Thanks.
Bread.


I've talked to many people on here who "know" that god pushed them onto the right path. Are you willing to accept that it was god who did that? If so, if they came to you said, "god has told me to kill your family because there is a lesson you need to learn", would you still be so flippant in espousing the validity of this persons communication with god?

Bread
06-12-2007, 09:30 PM
I've talked to many people on here who "know" that god pushed them onto the right path. Are you willing to accept that it was god who did that? If so, if they came to you said, "god has told me to kill your family because there is a lesson you need to learn", would you still be so flippant in espousing the validity of this persons communication with god?

See i know God through Scripture, through pray, through communion and the Church and i believe God has put me and others on the "right" path. If someone came to me and said "God has sent me to kill your family", i know they are not on the "right" path because God has revealed what the "right" path is universally, his "right" path applies to everyone.

Thanks
Bread

squanto
06-12-2007, 09:35 PM
So I was talking to this girl that I've know for years. Normal nice girl, with a good sense of humour and not exactly a square if you know what I mean. We started getting into a religious discussion. I knew she believed in god, but I didn't know exactly how religious she was about it. She thought the mormon religion was a lie and she mentioned that the Christian bible was flawless;which she maintained even after I revealed several contradictions(any story that has a contradiction must have not been meant to be taken literally, and any logical contradiction was avoided in some way).

So I asked her more as a joke, "If your god told you to literally cook your family...would you do it?" She answered, as seriously as could be "Of course." I took a second, waited for her to laugh or otherwise reveal her sarcasm. "Are you serious?" I ask. She affirms and adds "It sounds wierd to say, but I'm not crazy or anything..."

"You would cook your family... but you're not....crazy???"

Have any of you come across normal people in your lives that seem like normal people but are actually absolutely fuking bonkers???

2 Kings 6:28-29
This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him.

karzma
06-12-2007, 09:41 PM
I believe in god

I would kill god and become god if he told me to cook my family.

Couldbebigga
06-12-2007, 10:04 PM
See i know God through Scripture, through pray, through communion and the Church and i believe God has put me and others on the "right" path. If someone came to me and said "God has sent me to kill your family", i know they are not on the "right" path because God has revealed what the "right" path is universally, his "right" path applies to everyone.

Thanks
Bread

So, in other words, YOU will make the decision as to whether or not you are actually recieving a message from god. However, when someone else makes their own decision you'll only choose to believe them when it fits your own depiction of what god would want?

You have to understand, the things you mentioned above are so subjective they are useless. They offer no help when you are trying to understand whether the message is really from god or not.

Bread
06-12-2007, 10:19 PM
So, in other words, YOU will make the decision as to whether or not you are actually recieving a message from god. However, when someone else makes their own decision you'll only choose to believe them when it fits your own depiction of what god would want?

You have to understand, the things you mentioned above are so subjective they are useless. They offer no help when you are trying to understand whether the message is really from god or not.

I think you have misunderstood what im trying to say. It not subjective. Gods law is universal and is the same law for everyone. I don't create the laws i obey them, what the laws are we all can learn in Scripture and from the Church. Although there are many different interpretations of scripture (not Gods error but mans), there in only one intended interpretation which we are all called to follow.

Thanks
Bread.

Couldbebigga
06-12-2007, 10:24 PM
I think you have misunderstood what im trying to say. It not subjective. Gods law is universal and is the same law for everyone. I don't create the laws i obey them, what the laws are we all can learn in Scripture and from the Church. Although there are many different interpretations of scripture (not Gods error but mans), there in only one intended interpretation which we are all called to follow.

Thanks
Bread.

Fair enough. But how do YOU know which interpretation is right? People have been having wars over this very subject for thousands of years.

Pump that iron!
06-12-2007, 10:28 PM
I think you have misunderstood what im trying to say. It not subjective. Gods law is universal and is the same law for everyone. I don't create the laws i obey them, what the laws are we all can learn in Scripture and from the Church. Although there are many different interpretations of scripture (not Gods error but mans), there in only one intended interpretation which we are all called to follow.

Thanks
Bread.

Ok, it is seriously redundant to finish by posting your name every time.

Your name is already on every post you make.

Couldbebigga
06-12-2007, 10:37 PM
Ok, it is seriously redundant to finish by posting your name every time.

Your name is already on every post you make.

Good point Pump that iron!

Thanks

Couldbebigga

mlc82
06-12-2007, 10:54 PM
Wow, I didn't expect this kind of response. Religion must truly be one of the most dangerous things we have made. I assume most of the religious people in this thread would not be considered extremist or fundamentalist, yet have a perfectly justifiable(in thier heads) excuse for murder.

This replacment of rational thought with submission is disconcerting. Almost all of the "cookers" didn't even question whether they were hallucinating, or if, I would think of them easier to accept, Satan had come to decieve them.

If we consider all the equivalent gods that we've made for ourselves and realize that only one could be true, if any, and that as it seems most normal religious people hold the same unquestioning submission for thier god, then we have most of the religious people of the world with a complete rationalization for murder.

If I did believe in what the Bible teaches, I would be 100% convinced that Satan had infiltrated christianity as soon as he could have... Just look at the past 1700 yrs of so of organized Christianity's history, it probably makes Jesus turn in his grave, assuming he was a real person of course.

In fact, things such as this cause me even more to rule out Satan as the "ultimate evil". If he truly existed and did want to wreak havoc, why not just pretend to be God start convincing every theist out there to barbeque and eat their entire families, and also the one next door? So much chaos, havoc, and destruction to wreak, and yet apparently Satan just sits around not doing much of anything, except occasionally sending off one of his demons to posess random, everyday people. If you were a destruction-loving demon from hell, wouldn't you want to posess some world leader and just launch every nuke in that country's arsenal into as many other random countries as possible, you know, really raise some hell?

Sorry for going so far OT, it's late and I need to sleep but have had too much coffee ;P

MediaDeit
06-12-2007, 11:00 PM
so what if they do? it still doesn't make it logical.

which is your opinion, to them it does.

mlc82
06-12-2007, 11:02 PM
:cool:

Because they don't trust in the holiness of God, as Abraham did.

Funny, I remember a news story not too long ago where a woman apparently trusted so fully in the holiness of God that she sawed off her baby daughter's arms, because of course, God told her to. How would one differentiate between the voice of God in your head, insanity, or the voice of Satan pretending to be God?

Couldbebigga
06-12-2007, 11:23 PM
I think you have misunderstood what im trying to say. It not subjective. Gods law is universal and is the same law for everyone. I don't create the laws i obey them, what the laws are we all can learn in Scripture and from the Church. Although there are many different interpretations of scripture (not Gods error but mans), there in only one intended interpretation which we are all called to follow.

Thanks
Bread.

Negging me isn't going to stop you from going to hell if you haven't correctly figured out what gods message is. I hope you're confident ;)

AKR
06-12-2007, 11:42 PM
which is your opinion, to them it does.

no, it's not an opinion; it's how logic works.

AKR
06-12-2007, 11:45 PM
Good point Pump that iron!

Thanks

Couldbebigga

haha, this reminds me of mike jones, a rapper who puts his name in every song.

AKR

MediaDeit
06-13-2007, 12:06 AM
no, it's not an opinion; it's how logic works.

No it is an opinion, I don't think it is logical, you don't, but to many people it does seem logical.

Logical is according to the principles of logic in accordance to statements events or conditions.

What is logical is opinionionated on what the person believes is logic, to many that includes their holy book and the teachings at the place they worship, therefore it leads to opinion. I fail to understand how you are incapable of agreeing with atleast that part.

Bread
06-13-2007, 01:29 AM
Fair enough. But how do YOU know which interpretation is right? People have been having wars over this very subject for thousands of years.

That's a good question. The question is nearly asking, "after YOU interpret scripture, which church lines up to YOUR interpretation?", but this is not the case nor the question to be asked, instead ask "Which Church has the authority to provide the true interpretation of Scripture?".

As for my sign off, i like to thank the reader for taking the time to read my post, a thanks from me.

Thanks
Bread

Couldbebigga
06-13-2007, 01:32 AM
That's a good question. The question is nearly asking, "after YOU interpret scripture, which church lines up to YOUR interpretation?", but this is not the case nor the question to be asked, instead ask "Which Church has the authority to provide the true interpretation of Scripture?".

As for my sign off, i like to thank the reader for taking the time to read my post, a thanks from me.

Thanks
Bread

Which church do you think has authority?

Bread
06-13-2007, 01:35 AM
Which church do you think has authority?

I believe it to be the Church Jesus Christ founded over 2000 years ago, the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks
Bread

Couldbebigga
06-13-2007, 01:48 AM
I believe it to be the Church Jesus Christ founded over 2000 years ago, the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks
Bread

So, if god gave you a message that didn't equate to what the roman catholic church taught as gods word you could recognise this as not being god. That makes sense.

That's a big gamble, because what if your church got it wrong? If they did then you may be violating gods word right? Maybe god chose you to the reciever of new teachings. Just like he chose jesus. That's a possiblity right? So there has to be some other way you'd recognise it was him. Some way you could be confident?

IAmABiscuit
06-13-2007, 02:39 AM
I didn't read everything - but this is exactly the reason why there are terrorists around. Religious extremists who believe in their dogmatic religions, without a single shred of doubt. They lost their right and free will (apparently a gift of god) to think for themselves, out of a "holy book", for the factual, logical truth.

SteR-
06-13-2007, 02:55 AM
If I did believe in what the Bible teaches, I would be 100% convinced that Satan had infiltrated christianity as soon as he could have... Just look at the past 1700 yrs of so of organized Christianity's history, it probably makes Jesus turn in his grave, assuming he was a real person of course.

In fact, things such as this cause me even more to rule out Satan as the "ultimate evil". If he truly existed and did want to wreak havoc, why not just pretend to be God start convincing every theist out there to barbeque and eat their entire families, and also the one next door? So much chaos, havoc, and destruction to wreak, and yet apparently Satan just sits around not doing much of anything, except occasionally sending off one of his demons to posess random, everyday people. If you were a destruction-loving demon from hell, wouldn't you want to posess some world leader and just launch every nuke in that country's arsenal into as many other random countries as possible, you know, really raise some hell?

Sorry for going so far OT, it's late and I need to sleep but have had too much coffee ;P

Yea well I kinda agree with you on this. If satan really does exist then I'm sure he's weaved his way into something far greater than we realise. It seems as though satan is portrayed as an idiot most of the time but in reality, I'd bet he's the complete opposite and has most of us fooled..

SteR-
06-13-2007, 03:01 AM
btw, what I find quite funny is how people are calling others 'crazy' for agreeing to kill their family for God. Let's just get one thing straight.. this is what the OP said:

"If your god told you to literally cook your family...would you do it?"

Now as you can see, whether or not God exists doesn't matter as the OP has stated that in this situation, God does exist. So we KNOW now that it is definately God who is talking to us.

So why do people call others crazy for obeying the entity that created us?

Since God is responsible for creating you, your family, your morals, your body, your soul, your world, EVERYTHING... why would you disobey Him? This entity has total and utter authority over you. You owe everything you are/have to this God so why do you say it's "illogical" and "crazy" to obey Him?

I mean, God knows I'd rather do ANYTHING other than harm my family but if I was asked by God, I would have to do what He says.. as without Him, I wouldn't even have a body or a family or anything..

Does that make more sense?

DaCougarMech
06-13-2007, 03:15 AM
btw, what I find quite funny is how people are calling others 'crazy' for agreeing to kill their family for God. Let's just get one thing straight.. this is what the OP said:

"If your god told you to literally cook your family...would you do it?"

Now as you can see, whether or not God exists doesn't matter as the OP has stated that in this situation, God does exist. So we KNOW now that it is definately God who is talking to us.

So why do people call others crazy for obeying the entity that created us?

Since God is responsible for creating you, your family, your morals, your body, your soul, your world, EVERYTHING... why would you disobey Him? This entity has total and utter authority over you. You owe everything you are/have to this God so why do you say it's "illogical" and "crazy" to obey Him?

I mean, God knows I'd rather do ANYTHING other than harm my family but if I was asked by God, I would have to do what He says.. as without Him, I wouldn't even have a body or a family or anything..

Does that make more sense?

well said. people are trying to argue this from a standpoint that still questions the existence of god. this is a hypothetical situation in which THE God appears before you and you KNOW that it is THE God, regardless of your beliefs before his appearance

SteR-
06-13-2007, 03:23 AM
Haven't read anything before this page but I have a question. Would any theist respect someone from a different religion to them, cooking their family because God told them to?

I sure would.

I'm of the belief that every monothestic religion is actually talking about the same God.. it's just that different things have been revealed about God to these people or maybe some of what was revealed has become corrupted..

LatissimusDorsi
06-13-2007, 03:23 AM
Haven't read anything before this page but I have a question. Would any theist respect someone from a different religion to them, cooking their family because God told them to?

Taffin
06-13-2007, 03:26 AM
Are you familiar with the story of Abraham and Isaac?

Are you familiar with Paranoid Schizophrenia?

Bread
06-13-2007, 04:22 AM
So, if god gave you a message that didn't equate to what the roman catholic church taught as gods word you could recognise this as not being god. That makes sense.

That's a big gamble, because what if your church got it wrong? If they did then you may be violating gods word right? Maybe god chose you to the reciever of new teachings. Just like he chose jesus. That's a possiblity right? So there has to be some other way you'd recognise it was him. Some way you could be confident?

I don't believe the Catholic Church to get it wrong in terms of the teaching of faith(including scripture) and morals because God has promised that he will guide his Church. That's not to say people haven't done bad things in the name of the Church, but that's just bad people in the Church, the teachings of faith and morals are spotless, pure.

If God really wanted me to be his messenger then so be it, but i do believe God would ensure i were in the right position to recieve and announce his message like a Priest or The Bishop of Rome for example. If God has a message for the world, he will get it out.

Bread
06-13-2007, 04:29 AM
Yea well I kinda agree with you on this. If satan really does exist then I'm sure he's weaved his way into something far greater than we realise. It seems as though satan is portrayed as an idiot most of the time but in reality, I'd bet he's the complete opposite and has most of us fooled..

Well said. Scripture even says Satan will fool the world. Personally i already see him doing it.

Mr Beer
06-13-2007, 04:41 AM
This thread is the epitomy of what brainwashed means. Wow.


:unsubscribes:

Amen (yes irony).

Mr Beer
06-13-2007, 04:42 AM
I didn't read everything - but this is exactly the reason why there are terrorists around.

And amen to that also.

KingSht
06-13-2007, 04:44 AM
And amen to that also.

But you get to baste the roast with beer!

SteR-
06-13-2007, 04:47 AM
And amen to that also.

We've already said that this is a hypothetical situation where you KNOW God is talking to you.. not "thinking" God is speaking to you..

devire1
06-13-2007, 05:06 AM
Haven't read anything before this page but I have a question. Would any theist respect someone from a different religion to them, cooking their family because God told them to?

better yet, would any christian respect another christian for cooking your family because god told them to?

devire1
06-13-2007, 05:15 AM
I didn't read everything - but this is exactly the reason why there are terrorists around. Religious extremists who believe in their dogmatic religions, without a single shred of doubt. They lost their right and free will (apparently a gift of god) to think for themselves, out of a "holy book", for the factual, logical truth.

i doubt anyone that says yes is going to become a terrorist anytime.

Couldbebigga
06-13-2007, 05:29 AM
i doubt anyone that says yes is going to become a terrorist anytime.

Unless god tells them too.

Nextstopearth
06-13-2007, 05:40 AM
We've already said that this is a hypothetical situation where you KNOW God is talking to you.. not "thinking" God is speaking to you..

This was not the situation. "Knowing" and "thinking" were never specified originally. Actually I never meant to ask the forum that question at all, it was just the title of the thread.

But another thing this thread has pointed out is the difference in the way people think. Religious people assumed that god must be god without questioning it. They knew it. Much like they know god exists, they know any other god is not real, they know god speaks to them etc...The non-relgious person searches for a reasonable explanation. This to me is an equally important revelation as the one of which someone can be justified of doing anything thier "god" tells them to. It's the root of it.

SteR-
06-13-2007, 06:56 AM
This was not the situation. "Knowing" and "thinking" were never specified originally. Actually I never meant to ask the forum that question at all, it was just the title of the thread.

But another thing this thread has pointed out is the difference in the way people think. Religious people assumed that god must be god without questioning it. They knew it. Much like they know god exists, they know any other god is not real, they know god speaks to them etc...The non-relgious person searches for a reasonable explanation. This to me is an equally important revelation as the one of which someone can be justified of doing anything thier "god" tells them to. It's the root of it.

If you look at the OP:

"If your god told you to literally cook your family...would you do it?"

This statement does not say "if a person claiming to be your god told you to literally cook your family" it says "If your god" implying that we KNOW this person to be God.

Otherwise, yes, I think you would be a bit crazy if you just said "yes" and killed your family without knowing who you were dealing with.

IAmABiscuit
06-13-2007, 09:50 AM
Im citing the terrorists as an example of blind faith. Faith is definitely a beautiful thing. But blind faith is foolish and against logic, which is the basis of human analysis. I see religion as an answer/truth to one's life, and something which lays a set of rules and principles, but in a subjective sense. Saying so, i will have absolute faith in god when i pray, but in a situation whereby i have to do something treachous like "cook my parents", i would rather be banished to the burning fire of hell. Maybe its just me, but its really scary when i see straight replies saying that you guys readily agreeing to kill your parents. Please exercise the beauty of free will and logic, the gift of the almighty god, and decide between the right and the wrong.

And again, this thread just proves the scariness of the most dogmatic religion in business today.

mlc82
06-13-2007, 10:55 AM
I believe it to be the Church Jesus Christ founded over 2000 years ago, the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks
Bread

Jesus didn't found that Church, it was founded 300 yrs after Jesus' crucifixion. Constantine of Rome founded that church, and he wasn't exactly a christ-like figure.

honeybbqgrundle
06-13-2007, 11:49 AM
Since God is responsible for creating you, your family, your morals, your body, your soul, your world, EVERYTHING... why would you disobey Him? This entity has total and utter authority over you. You owe everything you are/have to this God so why do you say it's "illogical" and "crazy" to obey Him?

I mean, God knows I'd rather do ANYTHING other than harm my family but if I was asked by God, I would have to do what He says.. as without Him, I wouldn't even have a body or a family or anything..

Does that make more sense?

Actually, it makes no sense. It makes no sense that an omniscient creator would make a world in which such a situation would arise. Why would he plan out ahead of time that he would ask you to kill your family?

It makes no sense that he would ask you to do it instead of just doing it himself. It makes no sense that he would show himself to you to teach you a lesson, as you would interpret it, but not to the people trying to cure cancer and AIDS.

It makes no sense that you would cook your family.

Nextstopearth
06-13-2007, 03:13 PM
This statement does not say "if a person claiming to be your god told you to literally cook your family" it says "If your god" implying that we KNOW this person to be God.

The implication is your own. Simliar to if your god comes to you in a dream. If god came to me while concious, i would have assumed myself to have injested a stong hallucinagen.

JAGERBOY
06-13-2007, 03:44 PM
btw, what I find quite funny is how people are calling others 'crazy' for agreeing to kill their family for God. Let's just get one thing straight.. this is what the OP said:

"If your god told you to literally cook your family...would you do it?"

Now as you can see, whether or not God exists doesn't matter as the OP has stated that in this situation, God does exist. So we KNOW now that it is definately God who is talking to us.

So why do people call others crazy for obeying the entity that created us?

Since God is responsible for creating you, your family, your morals, your body, your soul, your world, EVERYTHING... why would you disobey Him? This entity has total and utter authority over you. You owe everything you are/have to this God so why do you say it's "illogical" and "crazy" to obey Him?

I mean, God knows I'd rather do ANYTHING other than harm my family but if I was asked by God, I would have to do what He says.. as without Him, I wouldn't even have a body or a family or anything..

Does that make more sense?

No, still doesn't make any sense.

SteR-
06-13-2007, 03:45 PM
The implication is your own. Simliar to if your god comes to you in a dream. If god came to me while concious, i would have assumed myself to have injested a stong hallucinagen.

dude come, get real. If you said "a dog comes up to you and barks at you.. would you run away?", are you telling me you'd be asking questions like "does the dog exist?" no you wouldn't.. you'd take it as a given that the dog was real in the context and answer the question :p

SteR-
06-13-2007, 03:47 PM
Actually, it makes no sense. It makes no sense that an omniscient creator would make a world in which such a situation would arise. Why would he plan out ahead of time that he would ask you to kill your family?

It makes no sense that he would ask you to do it instead of just doing it himself. It makes no sense that he would show himself to you to teach you a lesson, as you would interpret it, but not to the people trying to cure cancer and AIDS.

It makes no sense that you would cook your family.

geez that's not what the OP was asking. He provided a simple question and I gave a straightforward answer - I explained my reasoning behind it.

He didn't say to 'prove why God exists' nor did he say why God was asking me to do this, he just asked a question and I gave my answer.

Couldbebigga
06-13-2007, 03:49 PM
dude come, get real. If you said "a dog comes up to you and barks at you.. would you run away?", are you telling me you'd be asking questions like "does the dog exist?" no you wouldn't.. you'd take it as a given that the dog was real in the context and answer the question :p

"You've been handed a secret message from a CIA agent. It says, "Kill your wife or we'll drop a nuclear bomb on the city." Would you do it?"

I'm pretty sure you'd be questioning whether or not the guy is a CIA agent.

It's funny how this has highlighted the fundamental difference between religious folk and atheists. Maybe it could be used as a test of religiousocity (is that a word!?!) Good stuff OP:)

Bread
06-13-2007, 05:43 PM
Jesus didn't found that Church, it was founded 300 yrs after Jesus' crucifixion. Constantine of Rome founded that church, and he wasn't exactly a Christ-like figure.

:) Jesus Christ did found the Catholic Church, the word Catholic has been used as early as 110 A.D. Constantine was a Pagan Emperor of Rome who then converted to Christianity and then liberated them from prosecution. Due to a number of heresies of Christianity spreading, Constantine organised a council which involved hundreds of bishops to define and teach what the true Christianity is and already was. For example in the council they released a creed; "We believe in one God...", in the creed it also states Jesus' divinity, our Lord, which was already taught and believed as seen in Paul's letters (1st Century).

Bread
06-13-2007, 05:47 PM
"You've been handed a secret message from a CIA agent. It says, "Kill your wife or we'll drop a nuclear bomb on the city." Would you do it?"

I'm pretty sure you'd be questioning whether or not the guy is a CIA agent.

It's funny how this has highlighted the fundamental difference between religious folk and atheists. Maybe it could be used as a test of religiousocity (is that a word!?!) Good stuff OP:)


Yeah but the CIA is a secret organisation, God is no secret :)

Couldbebigga
06-13-2007, 06:52 PM
Yeah but the CIA is a secret organisation, God is no secret :)

You still got the point :P

SteR-
06-14-2007, 01:37 AM
"You've been handed a secret message from a CIA agent. It says, "Kill your wife or we'll drop a nuclear bomb on the city." Would you do it?"

I'm pretty sure you'd be questioning whether or not the guy is a CIA agent.

It's funny how this has highlighted the fundamental difference between religious folk and atheists. Maybe it could be used as a test of religiousocity (is that a word!?!) Good stuff OP:)

but again, it's safe to assume that it IS a CIA Agent simply because you've said "a CIA agent" not "someone who claims to be a CIA Agent" - the fact that this person is a CIA Agent is a given, simply because you've stated no reason to believe otherwise or to even question this..

Nextstopearth
06-14-2007, 03:44 AM
dude come, get real. If you said "a dog comes up to you and barks at you.. would you run away?", are you telling me you'd be asking questions like "does the dog exist?" no you wouldn't.. you'd take it as a given that the dog was real in the context and answer the question :p

Dogs exist.

Fluids
06-14-2007, 03:47 AM
I would do w/e he told me to do...

DaCougarMech
06-14-2007, 03:50 AM
but again, it's safe to assume that it IS a CIA Agent simply because you've said "a CIA agent" not "someone who claims to be a CIA Agent" - the fact that this person is a CIA Agent is a given, simply because you've stated no reason to believe otherwise or to even question this..

but the OP is stating a hypothetical question that includes the assumption that god is real, whether or not the potential family killer believes in him or not. he simply wants to explore how deep our morals go in our subconscious. simply put, do we establish morals based on inborn instincts, or do we do it out of a fear of an established supernatural deity. and how does our fear of the power of that deity compare to our inborn morals. is it right to disobey a being of ultimate wisdom and knowledge if you feel it is wrong to the deepest part of you?
please take into consideration that i am atheist, so read it before you start yelling

SteR-
06-14-2007, 04:04 AM
but the OP is stating a hypothetical question that includes the assumption that god is real, whether or the not the potential family killer believes in him or not. he simply wants to explore how deep our morals go in our subconscious. simply put, do we establish morals based on inborn instincts, or do we do it out of a fear of an established supernatural deity. and how does our fear of the power of that deity compare to our inborn morals. is it right to disobey a being of ultimate wisdom and knowledge if you feel it is wrong to the deepest part of you?
please take into consideration that i am atheist, so read it before you start yelling

well yes exactly, this is the point I'm trying to make but others keep harping on about "well you have to prove this" etc when that wasn't the point..

SteR-
06-14-2007, 04:06 AM
Dogs exist.

So then tell me what the point of your question was? If you're wanting to question God's existence then why didn't you mention this in the original question?

JAGERBOY
06-14-2007, 08:05 AM
Its amazing that Christians in here won't acknowledge that maybe, there God is actually evil, or could be evil. They think "well gee willickers, if god said it, it must be right!!!!!111".

Do you Christians not see it as egomeniacal to request that a man proove his faith by sacrificing his own child, even if ultimately you dont let him or even brought him back to life? I would say thats a bad, or evil trait.

Couldbebigga
06-14-2007, 03:17 PM
Its amazing that Christians in here won't acknowledge that maybe, there God is actually evil, or could be evil. They think "well gee willickers, if god said it, it must be right!!!!!111".

Do you Christians not see it as egomeniacal to request that a man proove his faith by sacrificing his own child, even if ultimately you dont let him or even brought him back to life? I would say thats a bad, or evil trait.

Come on Jager! They know for a FACT that their god isn't evil! How do they know? Because he told them so!

Pump that iron!
06-14-2007, 03:18 PM
God has too much time on his hands.

He likes dat dere games y'see.

SteR-
06-14-2007, 03:31 PM
Its amazing that Christians in here won't acknowledge that maybe, there God is actually evil, or could be evil. They think "well gee willickers, if god said it, it must be right!!!!!111".

Do you Christians not see it as egomeniacal to request that a man proove his faith by sacrificing his own child, even if ultimately you dont let him or even brought him back to life? I would say thats a bad, or evil trait.

I think it's because, to accept God, you have to accept that he is 100% good

AKR
06-14-2007, 03:42 PM
Its amazing that Christians in here won't acknowledge that maybe, there God is actually evil, or could be evil. They think "well gee willickers, if god said it, it must be right!!!!!111".

Do you Christians not see it as egomeniacal to request that a man proove his faith by sacrificing his own child, even if ultimately you dont let him or even brought him back to life? I would say thats a bad, or evil trait.

not to mention, that he rewarded abe for lying to his son, in order to almost murder him. god's one confusing SOB.

JAGERBOY
06-14-2007, 03:43 PM
I think it's because, to accept God, you have to accept that he is 100% good

And why is that? Is it a prerequisite that in order to be a all power being that created everything, that you must be 100% good?

DYnomyte001
06-14-2007, 03:53 PM
i dont believe in god but if a deity told me to to cook my family, well i really dont have much of choice, do i?
i mean, it's all powerful and revealed itself to me

The voices told me to do it...

I'm sure everyone will believe you if you cooked your family because some omnipotent being told you to for the greater of the universe. :)

SteR-
06-14-2007, 03:57 PM
And why is that? Is it a prerequisite that in order to be a all power being that created everything, that you must be 100% good?

nope but the Bible/Qu'ran claim that God is good and since the OP said 'your God' I assume this means the God we each personally believe in. So therefore, mine = good but I don't know who everyone else believes in.. some people may worship satan - who knows :confused:

JAGERBOY
06-14-2007, 04:01 PM
nope but the Bible/Qu'ran claim that God is good and since the OP said 'your God' I assume this means the God we each personally believe in. So therefore, mine = good but I don't know who everyone else believes in.. some people may worship satan - who knows :confused:

But both of your books say that your God has done evil things. So if he does evil things, then he is evil, or has the potential to be. Also, are you saying your god CAN'T be evil? Be careful.

SteR-
06-15-2007, 02:30 AM
ok this is a very tricky issue because the OP seems to have picked something which stirs things up a bit :).

But anyway, firstly, you've said God does evil things. So now we must define what evil is:

e?vil /ˈivəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-vuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.

so evil is apparently "morally wrong". So now I look up the definition of 'morals':

mor?al /ˈmɔrəl, ˈmɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mawr-uhl, mor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

Now, as I've said earlier, I believe God to be 100% righteous/good. So therefore, whatever God does is right.

You have to remember that God cannot be restricted by human morality/rules because He is outside the constraints of these laws. I know it seems very difficult to grasp because I imagine that most people can't concieve of an entity greater than a human being ie. it's too difficult to imagine someone being outside the rules of morality but this is just the way it is.

- oh and please remember this is just MY wait of interpreting things.. I'm not saying it's correct, it's just how I try to understand it.

Let the flames begin :)

JAGERBOY
06-15-2007, 08:17 AM
ok this is a very tricky issue because the OP seems to have picked something which stirs things up a bit :).

But anyway, firstly, you've said God does evil things. So now we must define what evil is:

e?vil /ˈivəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-vuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.

so evil is apparently "morally wrong". So now I look up the definition of 'morals':

mor?al /ˈmɔrəl, ˈmɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mawr-uhl, mor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

Now, as I've said earlier, I believe God to be 100% righteous/good. So therefore, whatever God does is right.

You have to remember that God cannot be restricted by human morality/rules because He is outside the constraints of these laws. I know it seems very difficult to grasp because I imagine that most people can't concieve of an entity greater than a human being ie. it's too difficult to imagine someone being outside the rules of morality but this is just the way it is.

- oh and please remember this is just MY wait of interpreting things.. I'm not saying it's correct, it's just how I try to understand it.

Let the flames begin :)
So basically, you have constructed your own rules for your god to fit into what would be considered 100% good. Cop out of the century there my friends. So if god came down and decided to anal rape a 3 year old boy, you would think he was still good. Well, I guess at this point I will agree with Mr. Dawkins when he says that religious fanatics are delusional.

Scary.

SteR-
06-15-2007, 09:28 AM
I'm constructing my own rules about God at all.

And yes, if God asked me to, I would have to do whatever He says. But I HIGHLY doubt I'd ever get asked to anally rape someone :p

Bottom line is, I'd do anything He asked of me

JAGERBOY
06-15-2007, 10:32 AM
I'm constructing my own rules about God at all.

And yes, if God asked me to, I would have to do whatever He says. But I HIGHLY doubt I'd ever get asked to anally rape someone :p

Bottom line is, I'd do anything He asked of me

No I said if God himself came down and did that to a 3 year old boy, would you consider that evil or no?

SteR-
06-15-2007, 11:31 AM
No I said if God himself came down and did that to a 3 year old boy, would you consider that evil or no?

well at first glance yes (because I'd be judging him by human morals) but since it's God, it can't be evil. Secondly, He wouldn't do that either :)

MantisShrimp
06-15-2007, 11:38 AM
Absolutely not, steaming is healthier and retains more vitamins and nutrients.

JAGERBOY
06-15-2007, 11:40 AM
well at first glance yes (because I'd be judging him by human morals) but since it's God, it can't be evil. Secondly, He wouldn't do that either :)

Wow man. Do you not see how brainwashed you are? This is truly pathetic SteR. Plus the fact that you say "he wouldnt do that" shows that it would be an evil act. But I thought, per your logic, that no matter what your god did it wouldnt be evil. So why wouldnt he do it? And you also skipped over my question before. Are you saying that your god COULDN'T be evil?

FSUFan4
06-15-2007, 12:04 PM
I'd spit in God's face if he ever asked me to cook my family.

My family and friends >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any god

Gruenburger
06-15-2007, 12:24 PM
shall i add you to my sig?

add him

SteR-
06-15-2007, 02:07 PM
Wow man. Do you not see how brainwashed you are? This is truly pathetic SteR. Plus the fact that you say "he wouldnt do that" shows that it would be an evil act. But I thought, per your logic, that no matter what your god did it wouldnt be evil. So why wouldnt he do it? And you also skipped over my question before. Are you saying that your god COULDN'T be evil?

Well it's a kinda messed up question which doesn't make sense. The reason being is that you've basically asked me whether I'd do something evil if God asked me to. Well the thing is, Good is good so He would never actually ask me to do anything evil in the first place. How do I know this you ask? Because the OP asked whether I'd do what my God told me to do (and the God I believe in is the one the Bible/Qu'ran talks of) and I believe God to be all that is good in this world (as is claimed in the Bible and Qu'ran)..

JAGERBOY
06-15-2007, 02:11 PM
Well it's a kinda messed up question which doesn't make sense. The reason being is that you've basically asked me whether I'd do something evil if God asked me to. Well the thing is, Good is good so He would never actually ask me to do anything evil in the first place. How do I know this you ask? Because the OP asked whether I'd do what my God told me to do (and the God I believe in is the one the Bible/Qu'ran talks of) and I believe God to be all that is good in this world (as is claimed in the Bible and Qu'ran)..

So what your saying is that your god can not be evil or do evil things?

RelentlessChaos
06-15-2007, 02:15 PM
Are you familiar with the story of Abraham and Isaac?

I think if God really spoke to me, I would do whatever He said. I would never suppose that I am smarter than God.

and look how it turned out, isaac never died. God provided a lamb. Maybe God would just be testing my faith, and would "provide a lamb"

AKR
06-15-2007, 03:06 PM
Maybe God would just be testing my faith, and would "provide a lamb"

and if not? the question isn't "would you trust god not to really have you kill your family when he pretended he wanted to." it's "would you cook your family if your god told you to."

SteR-
06-15-2007, 03:11 PM
So what your saying is that your god can not be evil or do evil things?

yep.

JAGERBOY
06-15-2007, 03:12 PM
yep.

So just to clarify, you are saying that there is something your god can't do then, right?

Fidelis
06-15-2007, 03:45 PM
I would go to hell before doing that to anyone.

honeybbqgrundle
06-15-2007, 04:08 PM
I bet the people who said yes would have turned in Jim if they were Huck Finn. Bastards.

R.T.B.
06-15-2007, 04:10 PM
why would God ask you to cook your family

Maestro
11-24-2010, 03:30 PM
i would tell him to **** off... even if i truly believed he was real and talking to me, or at least ask him why.

I think I would rather burn in hell than hurt my family.

This.

If he wanted me to do that it would mean he's a narcissistic ****tard that gets his jollies off on other people suffering (as if we didn't already know that *coughjobcough*)

I'd rather have him kill me instead. The man is the captain of the "ship"

Maestro
11-24-2010, 03:32 PM
you're either saying that might = right, and god must know what's right, since he has more power, or you're saying you'd simply do it because he would punish you if you didn't do it.

Well said. That was the phrase I was looking for

Maestro
11-24-2010, 03:33 PM
why would God ask you to cook your family

oh I don't know, to prove to satan that you're still loyal to god, even after all the suffering you go through?

Its not like that's never happened before.......

brenden87
11-24-2010, 03:40 PM
nah i wouldn't. if he was really god he would know exactly how we felt about it and why we couldn't go through with it. if he punished us for not obeying him, god = satan

JAGERBOY
11-24-2010, 03:50 PM
nah i wouldn't. if he was really god he would know exactly how we felt about it and why we couldn't go through with it. if he punished us for not obeying him, god = satan

This is a non answer since you've changed the entire scenario.

CoolStoryBros
11-24-2010, 04:01 PM
"You would cook your family... but you're not....crazy???

Religion at it's best. Brainwashed to serve God regardless of the consequences. Governments wish they could do the same.

brenden87
11-24-2010, 04:03 PM
This is a non answer since you've changed the entire scenario.

no i didn't.