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View Full Version : Advice for herbal sup for clinical depression (Besides St John's Wort)



The Conqueror
08-01-2004, 12:48 PM
Hey guys, I recently found out that I have all of the classic symptoms of clinical depression. (Sense of accute hopelessness, loss of confidence, feeling that things will never get better)

I don't want to go on some drug that will take my soul. I'm just going through a few bumps and I want my edge back. I'm going to start St John's wart but is there anything else I should consider?

pogue
08-01-2004, 12:59 PM
DLPA, Sam-e, 5HTP, fish oil... thats all i can think of off the top of my head

natron
08-01-2004, 12:59 PM
Phenibut
L-theanine
5-HTP
whey ptotein (high tryptophan content)
Rodiola


Rick

The Conqueror
08-01-2004, 01:35 PM
thanks guys

The Conqueror
08-01-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by pogue
DLPA, Sam-e, 5HTP, fish oil... thats all i can think of off the top of my head

DLPA? I'm not familiar with that

The Conqueror
08-01-2004, 01:39 PM
Pogue,

for 5-HTP what brand do you recommend

pogue
08-01-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by The Conqueror
DLPA? I'm not familiar with that

DL-Phenylalanine


Originally posted by The Conqueror
Pogue,

for 5-HTP what brand do you recommend

NOW is good. Get 5HTP combined with B6.

The Conqueror
08-01-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by pogue
DL-Phenylalanine



NOW is good. Get 5HTP combined with B6.

Thanks I'm gonna order some 5HTP right now

The directions say to take at night / I take melatonin at night...I would like to take during the day. Is that possible or will I get sleepy?

pogue
08-01-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by The Conqueror
Thanks I'm gonna order some 5HTP right now

The directions say to take at night / I take melatonin at night...I would like to take during the day. Is that possible or will I get sleepy?

You should probably take it throughout the day.

http://www.supplementwatch.com/supatoz/supplement.asp?supplementId=1

dsade
08-01-2004, 02:52 PM
Add in 10 grams or so of Inositol a day

pu12en12g
08-01-2004, 02:58 PM
Another vote for 5-HTP

stabmaster
08-01-2004, 03:24 PM
1 vote for unconventional pharmaceuticals. It's true SSRI does stupid things sometimes, and makes people not act "themselves."

The right medication won't strip your sense of self.


The philosopher David Hume claimed that true self-awareness does not exist -- that what we imagine to be self-awareness is just an abstraction rather than a true perception. In fact, he went so far as to say that self-awareness is really just an illusion:

"For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble upon some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I can never catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception... Pain and pleasure, grief and joy, passions and sensations succeed each other, and never all exist at the same time. It cannot therefore be from any of these impressions, or from any other, that the idea of self is derived; and consequently there is no such idea."
-- David Hume, TREATISE OF HUMAN NATURE, Book I,Part IV,Section 6


You may start with the light prod's like 5-htp, but don't sell yourself short due to some judeo-christian infused presumption that natural is good and pharmaceuticals are bad.

stabmaster
08-01-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by dsade
Add in 10 grams or so of Inositol a day

This feels good on the periphery but is no cure for depression.

drewkowsky
08-01-2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by stabmaster
1 vote for unconventional pharmaceuticals. It's true SSRI does stupid things sometimes, and makes people not act "themselves."

The right medication won't strip your sense of self.



You may start with the light prod's like 5-htp, but don't sell yourself short due to some judeo-christian infused presumption that natural is good and pharmaceuticals are bad.

Hume hated life

as far as depression, I believe you are wise in avoiding pharmaceuticals

stabmaster
08-01-2004, 05:18 PM
hume was probably right to. Enough drugs and you don't have to worry about such blasphemy.

MooseMan
08-01-2004, 05:41 PM
Hume 'hated life' because of hte unbelievable amount of **** he went through. And he was an absolute genius, even if later people found ways around alot of what he wrote, his writings themselves are fantastic.


1 vote for Hume, and dont know what to say about the depression.

Smokinghawk
08-01-2004, 06:47 PM
Actually, St. John's Wort isn't effective at all--it's been tested in treatments of depression and found to be rather worthless.

But high-potency figh oils and inositol are both pretty well established as effective.

Paul -C-
08-01-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Smokinghawk
Actually, St. John's Wort isn't effective at all--it's been tested in treatments of depression and found to be rather worthless. It works for me.

And it's been used for thousands of years in herbal medicine...

pogue
08-01-2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Smokinghawk
Actually, St. John's Wort isn't effective at all--it's been tested in treatments of depression and found to be rather worthless.

That's not true.


Several clinical studies have been conducted to determine the efficacy of St. John’s wort for those with mild to moderate depression. In one review of 23 randomized trials including nearly 2,000 patients with mild or moderate depressive disorders, 15 were placebo-controlled, and 8 compared the herb with a drug treatment. Extracts of St. John’s wort were nearly 3 times more effective than placebo, and were comparable to prescription anti-depressants (with fewer side effects). Across the studies, fewer than 1% of those taking St. John’s wort dropped out of the study, compared with a drop-out rate of 3% taking a prescription anti-depressant. Perhaps the most encouraging results were that in contrast to the high percentage of side effects (52.8%) in those taking prescription anti-depressants, only 19.8% of those taking St. John’s wort experienced any adverse effects. Other well-controlled studies comparing the St. John’s wort extract LI 160 (from Lichtwer Pharma) to prescription anti-depressants such as Prozac (fluoxetine), sertraline (Zoloft), paroxetine (Paxil), imipramine, amitriptyline and maprotiline have all found St. John’s wort to be comparable in effectiveness, but superior to prescription drugs with regard to tolerability. Overall, more than a dozen double-blind placebo-controlled studies have been conducted (mostly small studies) with the majority supporting the case for the effectiveness of St. John's wort in alleviating mild to moderate depression
http://www.supplementwatch.com/supatoz/supplement.asp?supplementId=269

References at the bottom

Vinnie Bobarino
08-01-2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by pogue
DLPA, Sam-e, 5HTP, fish oil... thats all i can think of off the top of my head

Bump on this stack.

The Conqueror
08-02-2004, 08:50 AM
Guys...I don't know what to say....I appreciate the help.

I started the St John's Wort last night and am now waiting for my NOW 5-HTP to come in from bodybuilding.com.

I've reached a dark place in my life and have just become trapped in a "panic rut". Everybody is telling me that four years of work, family-life and school are catching up to me. But I'm not the kind to lay down to anything.

I'm heading to the gym today during lunch and going to try to let off some pressure on the weights. I've been neglecting them here lately. When I'm working out I feel like I can move the world...when I'm not I feel like the world walks on me.

Thanks for the help.

BTW: The fish oil...is this only for the good fats or can I use nuts, olive or flax instead?

The Conqueror
08-02-2004, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by The Conqueror


BTW: The fish oil...is this only for the good fats or can I use nuts, olive or flax instead?

bump

dsade
08-02-2004, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by stabmaster
This feels good on the periphery but is no cure for depression.

"Cure" for depression?

With clinical depression (depending on seriousness) and assuming that philosophical bases are somewhat covered, I don't think there is a cure for it.

It is a multi-pronged approach, and with something like Inositol, perhaps the elevation in mood and increased focus is enough to make it bearable.

Inositol is dirt cheap, and at this point our understanding is so limited as to not discount anything.

cowboyathlete
08-02-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Paul -C-
It works for me.

And it's been used for thousands of years in herbal medicine... Agreed, I take two a day just to take the edge off. St. John's Wort is not effective for major depression, however, it works better for mild or moderate symptoms. If your depression is severe to the point where you can barely function, you need to be on a prescription antidepressant. There are more than a few of us out there who have taken one before.

cowboyathlete
08-02-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by The Conqueror


I've reached a dark place in my life and have just become trapped in a "panic rut". Everybody is telling me that four years of work, family-life and school are catching up to me. But I'm not the kind to lay down to anything.

Whoa, so the s*** hit the fan all at once huh? That would drive any guy nuts. The main thing to do is to take it easy on yourself and take one thing at a time.

The Conqueror
08-02-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by cowboyathlete
Whoa, so the s*** hit the fan all at once huh? That would drive any guy nuts. The main thing to do is to take it easy on yourself and take one thing at a time.

Thanks, bro.

Life doesn't lay down for anyone...and I don't either. When I found I didn't want to fight...that's when I knew something was wrong.

Time to get back to basics....put goals back firmly in mind.

cowboyathlete
08-02-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by The Conqueror
Thanks, bro.

Life doesn't lay down for anyone...and I don't either. When I found I didn't want to fight...that's when I knew something was wrong.

Time to get back to basics....put goals back firmly in mind. A regular exercise program can help with depression too.

DevilSmack
08-02-2004, 01:06 PM
St. John's Wort is a waste of time. The stuff is a joke.

This product should work very well for you:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/pin/rhodax.html

Picking up some fish oil as Pogue suggested will help also.

pogue
08-02-2004, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by The Conqueror
BTW: The fish oil...is this only for the good fats or can I use nuts, olive or flax instead?

You want EPA/DHA from fish oil.

The Conqueror
08-02-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by cowboyathlete
A regular exercise program can help with depression too.

I missed (2) scheduled training days between January and June. I've been lucky to get in two light days straight here lately.

I've lost a lot of weight because I'm never hungry anymore...I can't eat.

That changed today. I'm coming back come hell or high water. I'm gonna eat...even if all I can do is crappy shakes I'm gonna get some cals back into me. I'm going tonight and by some fresh fish and chicken and green and red veggies.

I think the St Johns may be helping a little already. Can't wait till my 5-HTP comes in.

The Conqueror
08-02-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by pogue
You want EPA/DHA from fish oil.

Thanks pogue you've been quite a help, bro. I'll pick up some fish oil at the store tonight.

stabmaster
08-03-2004, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by dsade
"Cure" for depression?

With clinical depression (depending on seriousness) and assuming that philosophical bases are somewhat covered, I don't think there is a cure for it.

It is a multi-pronged approach, and with something like Inositol, perhaps the elevation in mood and increased focus is enough to make it bearable.

Inositol is dirt cheap, and at this point our understanding is so limited as to not discount anything.

you're right and i should add that i think inositol is one of the best goddamn things on the planet and I would be a wreck without it. better for anxiety and mood and even helps make the skin prettier, there's no downsides and it doesn't contraindicate with anything. it is dirt cheap and it tastes fine, no need to cap. So yeah i think inositol is the **** but i didn't think it is indicated for depression at all. that doesn't mean it won't help in the big scheme of things.

The Conqueror
08-03-2004, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by stabmaster
So yeah i think inositol is the **** but i didn't think it is indicated for depression

I found this at the bodybuilding.com store. It mentions depression and anxiety disorder

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/ino.html


Just as an update:

Had attacks both Sat, Sun & Mon AM. Started the St John's Wart on Sunday night.

By lunch time Monday I was a lot better. (Not in a state of distress)

Picked-up some fish oil last night

Did fine until this morning.

Though I'm not nearly as bad this morning but there is an "overcast" on me. I feel a little physically ill but I'm managing to down some egg whites and apples.

It's a start, huh?

The Conqueror
08-03-2004, 01:59 PM
Could carb sensitivity cause depression/anxiety attacks?

Both times in the last two days that I "snapped" up into working mode I had JUST drank milk/granola shake.

I'm just wondering. Maybe I should get a blood test to see if I'm becoming carb sensitive.

DevilSmack
08-03-2004, 03:40 PM
Carbs help your brain produce serotonin. That's why low-carb dieters get crabby.

Years ago, when I was getting off of a SSRI drug by slowly weening off it, I would get really dizzy from the withdraw symtoms. When I ate some cabs it helped out a little to reduce the dizzyness.

dito
08-03-2004, 03:47 PM
Mikey,

*hug*

peregrine
08-03-2004, 04:52 PM
vitamins A, B, C and E, minerals like magnesium, selenium and zinc, amino acids like phenylalanine, glutamine, methionine, arginine and tryptophan, substances like co-enzyme Q10 and tonics like gingko biloba, phosphatidyl serine, acetyl-l-carnitine, ginseng, DMAE and green tea.

meditation

Aman
08-03-2004, 06:27 PM
An alternative to the Serotonin route is the Dopamine/Norephephrine stimulants - Caffeine,Yohimbine,Ephedrine,Deprenyl,Gerovital.

A lot of listless depressionary people who don't drink coffee should.

Piracetam's a good add to those above, good general wake up the brain additive.

peregrine
08-03-2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Aman
An alternative to the Serotonin route is the Dopamine/Norephephrine stimulants - Caffeine,Yohimbine,Ephedrine,Deprenyl,Gerovital.

A lot of listless depressionary people who don't drink coffee should.

Piracetam's a good add to those above, good general wake up the brain additive.

idisagree,thiswillcausemorechemicalimbalanvceinthe brainbycausingthebraintoreleasemore,causingaspiral effectwhichcouldworsenthecondition.thebrainisalrea dyoverstressedinmanyindividualswithdepressionwhich couldbetheresultofbeingburntoutthroughthecontinued useofstimulantsand cortisol.
aniracetammayhelp http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=250&issueID=20

Aman
08-03-2004, 10:24 PM
Looks like you need some Stimulation, Bro, your expression's a little repressed.

Seriously, Anxiety and Depression are not the same thing, an overstimulated anxiety condition responds better to Serotonin or GABA, an apathetic depressionary condition needs a Catecholomine lift, Dopamine and Norephephrine.

Pleasure and Motivation are linked to Dopamine, not Serotonin. SSRI's make many clinically defined "depressed" people feel even more lifeless for this reason. These people don't need to be more Serotonin satiated, they need a Dopa/NE kick.

stabmaster
08-03-2004, 10:26 PM
http://www.emofree.com/default.htm

:)

stabmaster
08-03-2004, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Aman
Looks like you need some Stimulation, Bro, your expression's a little repressed.

Seriously, Anxiety and Depression are not the same thing, an overstimulated anxiety condition responds better to Serotonin or GABA, an apathetic depressionary condition needs a Catecholomine lift, Dopamine and Norephephrine.

Pleasure and Motivation are linked to Dopamine, not Serotonin. SSRI's make many clinically defined "depressed" people feel even more lifeless for this reason. These people don't need to be more Serotonin satiated, they need a Dopa/NE kick.

this **** is true. that's why MAOI's are the ****. the more "effective" SSRI's tend to be more nonspecific the way i see it. SSRI's work good for a very small range of depression. the NE kick imo is probably not best done by stimulants but rather NE reuptake inhibitors - this is what fits into my understanding of neurological stimuli.

Aman
08-03-2004, 11:50 PM
Yes, since we were talking Supplements and not Pharmaceuticals, I suggested stimulants, not the present trend in Psych drugs, more broadly based reuptake combos of S,NE and D.

Too much of any one neurochemical can be ineffective, a gentler and broader approach appears better.

The advantage of supplements over Pharmas is price and, more importantly, generally lower risk of sides and the ability to more easily fine tune the dosing.

Stumbo
08-04-2004, 12:42 AM
Ive been taking st. Johns for about 4 years now, works great for me.

peregrine
08-04-2004, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by Aman
Looks like you need some Stimulation, Bro, your expression's a little repressed.

.

lolspacebarisscrewytoday

The Conqueror
08-04-2004, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by peregrine
lolspacebarisscrewytoday

LOL maybe that's what "wrongwithmetoo" :D

peregrine
08-04-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by The Conqueror
LOL maybe that's what "wrongwithmetoo" :D


ya i thought it would be funny when you guys read that. but actually the laptop i was on was having a problem with the keyboard and spacebar.

good luck with your depression.
i recommend forcing yourself to watch 1hour of comedy a day or more. goal setting and meditation would also help.

jc2
08-04-2004, 02:58 PM
bump on the meditation, it has worked for me also tai-chi is great.
i've been in martial arts 30 years and it helps. about 5 yrs ago i went through some s**t that about did me in and i even quit training and martial arts, forced myself back into it and never
looked back . good luck ,bro

Derrick Snyder
08-04-2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by The Conqueror
Hey guys, I recently found out that I have all of the classic symptoms of clinical depression. (Sense of accute hopelessness, loss of confidence, feeling that things will never get better)

I don't want to go on some drug that will take my soul. I'm just going through a few bumps and I want my edge back. I'm going to start St John's wart but is there anything else I should consider?

Try Cannibus,
it has been used for many years by many poeple to find spiritual oneness.

DevilSmack
08-04-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Derrick Snyder
Try Cannibus,
it has been used for many years by many poeple to find spiritual oneness.

Oh yeah, that's the answer. :rolleyes: It will just take away any possible motivation he has left. Weed is for lossers.

stabmaster
08-04-2004, 11:38 PM
MDMA (ecstacy) was prescribed by psychiatrists in the early 80's.

nothing wrong with weed. jeez you need to smoke a little 'erb and not rip on people so much.

The Conqueror
08-05-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by peregrine
ya i thought it would be funny when you guys read that. but actually the laptop i was on was having a problem with the keyboard and spacebar.

good luck with your depression.
i recommend forcing yourself to watch 1hour of comedy a day or more. goal setting and meditation would also help.

Appreciate it, bro.

Believe it or not at night I have little problem. It's the morning/day when I'm most apt to have problems.

I do meditation before I go to bed in order to relax. I would probably have been locked in a padded room if it wasn't for that.

The Conqueror
08-05-2004, 01:55 PM
As an update...I recieved my 5-HTP this afternoon. I was having a terribly stressful day and (1) tablet honestly helped lift the weight out of my chest. Of course Melatonin it's cousin worked on me quickly too. I'll keep you updated.

DevilSmack
08-05-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by stabmaster
MDMA (ecstacy) was prescribed by psychiatrists in the early 80's.

nothing wrong with weed. jeez you need to smoke a little 'erb and not rip on people so much.

LOL, smoking weed is the last thing I need to do. :)

I have seen too many people ruin their lives by getting addicted to pot, my brother included. If you can post some info show how weed can alter brain chemistry to alleviate depression, then do it. If not, smoke weed all you want, just don't encourage others to do so. I have almost finished my degree in psychology, and I know that weed would be very bad for someone who is suffering from clinical depression.

Dr. Freud use to recommend cocaine, until the medical community found out how bad it can F- you up.

Is this the frickn' 80's?:D MDMA can destroy the brains natural serotonin production causing a normal person to develop clinical depression for the rest of their life.

This is not a flame BTW, I'm just sharing some info with you. Peace, DS

snakebyte
08-05-2004, 10:11 PM
Blue lotus, its a type of flower you can make into a tea, or buy tea packets of it. It helps with depression and gives you a calming feeling. I've used it before, not for depression, but just for the calming effects and such, it was very relaxing to say the least.

The Conqueror
08-06-2004, 07:07 AM
Today is the best day I've had since last Friday when this all came to a head.

I feel normal and upbeat again. I'm starting to reclaim my ambition and the first thing I want to do is put another 1/2" on my arms by this winter! That's a gooooood feeling to have again! :D

Thanks everybody...and especially you Pogue...your advice helped tremendously.

Thanks

The Celtic Conqueror (again)

Michael B

stabmaster
08-08-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by DevilSmack
LOL, smoking weed is the last thing I need to do. :)

I have seen too many people ruin their lives by getting addicted to pot, my brother included. If you can post some info show how weed can alter brain chemistry to alleviate depression, then do it. If not, smoke weed all you want, just don't encourage others to do so. I have almost finished my degree in psychology, and I know that weed would be very bad for someone who is suffering from clinical depression.

Dr. Freud use to recommend cocaine, until the medical community found out how bad it can F- you up.

Is this the frickn' 80's?:D MDMA can destroy the brains natural serotonin production causing a normal person to develop clinical depression for the rest of their life.

This is not a flame BTW, I'm just sharing some info with you. Peace, DS

i dig that. just don't think that u need to call people losers. alcahol is the wost antidepressent on the planet IMO, much worse than weed. Ecstacy destroys the seratonergic axon- but it can be plausibly protected with proper treatment. the problem is that the government restricts schedule 1 drugs from being studied without a prescribed predetermined conclusion (that they're clinically insignificant). why? because the pharmaceuticals make money, and you can't patent weed... and the government is all out to condition our brains so that we act like the people in the b-movie Equilibrium and they control everything and then we stop taking the medication like Christian Bail's character and then we freak out and start killing people and go on a murderous rage to the leader's lair and slice his face off. [/rant]

Styleee
02-17-2005, 05:34 PM
This seems like a helpful thread... I'm sure everyone experiences some depression occasionally...

Anyone else use 5-HTP for depression, or find of something new by now?

The Conqueror
02-18-2005, 04:43 AM
Since this was bumped back to the top I'll update.

I have been on Lexapro for three months now. No more anxiety attacks. I have 2-3 more months before the doc says I'm clear but I just might make this month my last.

THINGS I FOUND HELPFUL BEFORE MEDS:
1) Ginseng Complex (the GOOD stuff)
2) Taurine
3) Valerian (Both before and even after meds)

AFTER I BEGAN LEXAPRO:
WAKE UP STACK: 200mgs of L-Tyrosine, (1) B-complex & (1) Ginko Bilboa (EXCELLENT COMBO!!!!) Knocked my lethargy out like a punk.

Valerian for sleep (warning may be too strong for some if on SSRI's)

Lok7y
02-18-2005, 05:46 AM
I know you don't want pharmaceuticals, but I think deprenyl might be of assistance to you. You might want to look into it and do a little research.

Definitely stick with the fish oil. I think phosphaditylserine supplementation would be extremely helpful to you as well.

Lastly, I definitely concur with the recommendation of inositol. If anything, I would combine inositol & IP6 (inositol hexaphosphate), and use a combination of the two, which will significantly assist in enhancing DA-tone centrally and prompt better neurotransmitter transition. It should also enhance energy levels.

The Conqueror
02-18-2005, 12:56 PM
I know you don't want pharmaceuticals, but I think deprenyl might be of assistance to you. You might want to look into it and do a little research.

Definitely stick with the fish oil. I think phosphaditylserine supplementation would be extremely helpful to you as well.

Lastly, I definitely concur with the recommendation of inositol. If anything, I would combine inositol & IP6 (inositol hexaphosphate), and use a combination of the two, which will significantly assist in enhancing DA-tone centrally and prompt better neurotransmitter transition. It should also enhance energy levels.

http://www.deprenyl.net/

Wish I'd have seen this before Lexapro [img]]

icey
02-18-2005, 07:07 PM
Since this was bumped back to the top I'll update.

I have been on Lexapro for three months now. No more anxiety attacks. I have 2-3 more months before the doc says I'm clear but I just might make this month my last.

THINGS I FOUND HELPFUL BEFORE MEDS:
1) Ginseng Complex (the GOOD stuff)
2) Taurine
3) Valerian (Both before and even after meds)

AFTER I BEGAN LEXAPRO:
WAKE UP STACK: 200mgs of L-Tyrosine, (1) B-complex & (1) Ginko Bilboa (EXCELLENT COMBO!!!!) Knocked my lethargy out like a punk.

Valerian for sleep (warning may be too strong for some if on SSRI's)

Did the St. John's Wort work out for you?

Your B-vitamin, L-Tyrosine, Ginko is a great stack, I used that in the past with Fish oil in the morning, and had alot of success with it. Another shot at lunch is good for those that need the extra boost.

Do you use the B vitamin all the time or do you ever take a break from it?

I stopped using St. John's Wort because of increased sensitivity to sunlight, but found it to work pretty good. Ginseng was too stimulatory for me.

But you found a really good stack there, I would definitley recommend it to anyone.

My best night stack is: melatonin, ZMA, and L-Theanine; it works well for me for good sleep, it's like having an adventure every night.

The Conqueror
02-21-2005, 05:34 AM
Did the St. John's Wort work out for you?

Your B-vitamin, L-Tyrosine, Ginko is a great stack, I used that in the past with Fish oil in the morning, and had alot of success with it. Another shot at lunch is good for those that need the extra boost.

Do you use the B vitamin all the time or do you ever take a break from it?

I stopped using St. John's Wort because of increased sensitivity to sunlight, but found it to work pretty good. Ginseng was too stimulatory for me.

But you found a really good stack there, I would definitley recommend it to anyone.

My best night stack is: melatonin, ZMA, and L-Theanine; it works well for me for good sleep, it's like having an adventure every night.

The St. John's did not work for me.

From time to time I'll take the ZMA for 3-4 week stints. But while I'm on Lexapro I can't take the melatonin though I did use it with great success in the past.

Great job and thanks for the contribution!

LiftingIsLife
02-21-2005, 07:20 AM
science has shown that 3 things aid in relieving all levels of depression, and
should be used IN COMBINATION:
(1) exercise
(2) medication, both natural and artificial
(3) verbal therapy

if you feel 'hopeless', dont just take advice from some damned message
board, go see a doc. take it from someone who has been there......

best,
lifer

Jimi69
02-21-2005, 07:47 AM
D-BOL, it gives you a sense of well-being.

Naven
02-21-2005, 08:13 AM
A few years ago I went through a period of diagnosed major clinical depression. It was terrible. I had been married for about 4 years, had family issues, work issues, self-confidence issues, you name it, I was living it.

I also didn't want to take any prescriptions, but at the same time I did want to pop a pill that would fix everything, however I felt in my gut that this wasn't possible. I had seen friends take various SSRIs and while they helped in some ways, they ususally had side effects that were in some cases worse than the depression they were prescribed for.

My wife was able to get me to go to some cognitive therapy, and I stuck with it, and to this day continue to go. It's helped in ways that I cannot describe, and I still get benefit. I'm not taking any drugs, and feel like most of the depression is in my past now.

I did try SJW (no effect for me), SAMe (mild help), Phenibut (major help but doesn't last, the body builds a strong tolerance, and the effect is similar to getting drunk, not really that helpful for depression IMHO). Talk therapy is the only thing that has helped, and it has really worked wonders.

It takes a while, it's not a short term fix, although you can get benefit in some cases right away if you're really down in the dumps. Depending on your level of depression, though, drugs may be best to get you out of the hole, sort of a stop-gap measure.

Anyhow, I wish you luck, I know what you're feeling and if you wanna talk, PM or email me and I'd be happy to give you more thoughts on what it's like to go through it and get better, or if you just wanna talk sometime, whatever. When I was really feeling down, I was in a fatalistic mood, and when people offered help, I wasn't always in the mood to take advantage of the help. I thank God my wife was there and stood strong, and helped me push through it. If you don't have someone though that is there to stand strong for you, it can be even tougher.

I also find that regular, heavy exercise, ala heavy cardio or weight lifting, is a drug in and of itself that is super effective, so pack on the weights, and work it out, that'll help too...

RippedUp
02-21-2005, 12:07 PM
My wife was able to get me to go to some cognitive therapy, and I stuck with it, and to this day continue to go. It's helped in ways that I cannot describe, and I still get benefit. I'm not taking any drugs, and feel like most of the depression is in my past now.


Here's a thread (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=160919) that I had started ~2 years ago, concerning CBT - cognitive behavior therapy. Might help.

jamestcurt
02-21-2005, 01:37 PM
Ginseng in its various varieties is referred to as an adaptogen, a substance that assists the body to adapt to external physical stresses such as exposure to extreme heat / cold, biological hazards, trauma, illness or lack of sleep. Ginseng is believed to stimulate the immune system, enhance abstract thinking and improve aerobic capacity. By regulating blood sugar levels, Ginseng may also benefit people with diabetes

Ginkgo Biloba is a powerful antidepressant and antioxidant that increases blood flow to the brain and other parts of the body. This improved blood circulation increases memory, promotes cardiovascular health, corrects impotency caused by arterial insufficiency

5HTP is an amino acid that is converted to seratonin, a strong neurotransmitter in the brain. It specifically targets symptoms caused by low seratonin levels such as feeling down, changes in sleep patterns, fibromyalgia and migraine pain. by arterial insufficiency

SAMe, SAM-e, or S-Adenosyl Methionine is an essential amino acid required to maintain healthy neurotransmitter processes in the brain. People suffering from depression often have deficient quantities of seratonin, dopamine, and phosphatides and poor receptor site binding. SAMe works fast to increase these levels and improve receptor site binding with little or no side effects.

Word of mouth also recommends cannabis sativa. I would check for clinical studies. But from personal experience, I would have of agree. But thats MHO.

The Conqueror
02-22-2005, 05:45 AM
The 5-HTP didn't work for me but at the time I took it I took WAY too much. (200mg) I became SUPER depressed and had nightmares.

But bump for the rest of the stuff listed above!

killerstack
02-22-2005, 08:20 AM
If anything, I would combine inositol & IP6 (inositol hexaphosphate),
How much of each - what ratio?

Skigazzi
02-22-2005, 09:13 AM
Great thread, I'll share my experiences with supps:

-I only suffer from moderate anxiety, not depression-

Been taking st, johns for 3.5 weeks now, and feel it is effective for me. At first I was taking it with 100 mg of 5-htp which helped for the first 10 days or so, but now it seems as though 5-htp gives me a headache, which makes me believe the st johns is doing an adequate job of increasing serotonin available to me and the 5htp is just too much now, since one indictation of too serotonin is a headache (too much S is a BAD thing). I keep the 5-htp on hand in case of a panic attack (which only occurred once, prompting me to start with supps).

Theanine is great to take the edge off, Kava is also good to take the edge off but made me too mellow during the day. After getting home from work I'll make green tea and add 750mg of GABA to the mix, very nice calming effect between green teas theanine and the added Gaba, with just a touch of caffeine.

My morning stack is a cup of green tea, with one scoop of neurostim+C , 2 grams fish oil,and 500 mg rhodiola.
Throughout the day I now supp with lecithin, and fish oil, as well and continuing my multivitamin and green tea in place of coffee (though I do still drink some coffee, but will try to take 100mg theanine with it to keep me from over stimulation).

Moral of the story is - after one month of obvious physical signs of anxiety without supps, and then starting to take the above mentioned supps for close to a month now, I feel almost as laid back as I did before it started.

Styleee
02-22-2005, 06:58 PM
Acetyl L-Carnitine is supposed to improve mood so I'm thinking about taking that with Deprenyl as lok suggested... maybe the ginseng as well...

I'm not hardcore depressed or anything but I find myself in bad moods a lot and just feel like nothing is going right when sometimes there isn't even anything wrong... I'll see how it goes...

myPecsRbigger
02-22-2005, 07:06 PM
i dont belive in st johns wort when i was on it i actully got worse and ive tried 5htp didnt work either it may work in mild cases of depression or anxiety but my anxiety was pretty bad so i had to go the ssri route which imo is not a bad choice since its 90% succesfull in panic disorder or anxiety related disorders and about 50% effective for depression, both my depression and anxiety are pretty much gone since been on zolft and thats 1 year now.

atticus_a
02-22-2005, 08:02 PM
The best supplements that I have ever ran across is Phosphatidylserine or Horny Goat Weed for decreasing anxiety, depression and even cortisol.

If anxiety is a problem Relora or L-theanine are good compounds.

Another one for sleep is Gotu Kola.

Overman
02-22-2005, 09:14 PM
how exactly do 'your' symptoms manifest themselves? Do you spend time ruminating or withdrawing? Has this been ongoing or just a recent development? Experiencing loneliness or feelings of isolation? Do you find simple cognitive abilities difficult or draining? A loss of 'self'? Sleeping irregularities? Alcohol? Quick to anger?


Also, any anxiety.........AVOID stimulants, especially caffeine.

Punisher007
02-22-2005, 10:29 PM
An alternative to the Serotonin route is the Dopamine/Norephephrine stimulants - Caffeine,Yohimbine,Ephedrine,Deprenyl,Gerovital.

A lot of listless depressionary people who don't drink coffee should.

Piracetam's a good add to those above, good general wake up the brain additive.

I strongly disagree with that. While dopamine/norephedrine based stimulants will make you feel great in the short-term, there is a large downward spiral once you stop taking them. For someone with clinical depression, this is the last thing you want.

PC2100only
02-23-2005, 08:46 AM
Prescription tranquilizers always worked great for me.

But the best fix was to just get happy in life. I found a new job, I stepped it up in school, and I ended the relationship that was headed no where.

Even though I had been diagnosed with Bi-polar, manic depression, and social anxiety, a change in lifestyle can solve anything.

tomo
02-23-2005, 10:15 AM
L-phenylalanine (DL-Phenylalanine is not good for you)
Rhodiola
tyrosine
Kava

Skigazzi
02-28-2005, 05:30 PM
I just tried Bacopa for the first time today (bulk and capped myself), and Its effects are much more pronounced than kava, or theanine, or rhodiola ( and I tried and like them all ), but this stuff just packs the punch I was hoping for. Id try this if I was feeling down or anxious, I really think 300 mg of this will do the job. More may do it even better.

Im looking forward to using it with some caffeine in the AM , and with Valerian at night.

Ashrym
04-30-2005, 04:21 PM
bump

bigcsorrren
05-05-2005, 06:45 PM
Can L-Tyrosine be used in conjunction with DL-Phenylalanine?

Lonny
05-05-2005, 08:08 PM
Can L-Tyrosine be used in conjunction with DL-Phenylalanine?


Yeah, but why would you want to use both?

Personally i find L-tyrosine to do the job. I normally take a gram when i wake up in the morning with B-complex and C.

Peter LeDrew
05-05-2005, 08:49 PM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=5600984#post5600984

Here's plenty more info to help you out. You should always rely on scientific research that points to a benefit of a specific nutrient, herb or drug.
There's plenty of good AND bad info in earlier posts in this thread.
I think St. John's Wort in the correct standardization of Hyperforin is great and has proven so without many sides, SAMe also, Inositol is also great.
Fish Oil of course.
I have never tried HTP but have heard both good and bad and studies seem inconclusive. LEF www.lef.org are not fans of 5-HTP and prefer SAMe or the Wort.


Although several reports in the published literature show that 5-HTP may be as effective as some antidepressants, the Life Extension Foundation does not endorse its use in the U.S based on certain findings.

The process by which 5-HTP is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HTP is absorbed by the brain, blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain.

When Europeans take 5-HTP, they are often prescribed the decarboxylase inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HTP from being converted into serotonin until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HTP and the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtually no serotonin reaching the brain.

For an awesome read:
http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-040.shtml

NOTE: Americans taking 5-HTP are more vulnerable to blood serotonin overload because, unlike most Europeans who are vitamin deficient, Americans who use 5-HTP usually take vitamin B6 as well. Vitamin B6 rapidly converts 5-HTP into serotonin before it reaches the brain. Even when combined with carbidopa, high levels of vitamin B6 will break through the carbidopa barrier and ensure that 5-HTP converts into serotonin in the blood before it can reach the brain. Excess serum serotonin is especially dangerous in those with underlying coronary artery disease as serotonin in the blood can induce arterial constriction.

So taking B6 with 5-HTP would be a BAD idea.

Take care and you're always welcome to PM me if you want to talk about supplements or just talk.
talking about depression is good. Many people go through tough times in their lives and it's bound to hit most people in their lifetimes. It was a smart move addressing this issue on this great forum with others who can help you and understand your feelings.
You may be going through this crap now, but it can always get much better.

Cheers,
Pete

bg330
05-05-2005, 11:22 PM
To those taking St. Johns wort on a daily basis, do you guys notice any difference with your libido? For many people SSRI's cause you to lose libido, or not be able to reach orgasm, anything similar to this with SJW?

Peter LeDrew
05-06-2005, 05:50 AM
No drop in libido should be experienced. Maybe an increase due to simply feeling better.