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View Full Version : Why is dairy such a no-no?



TennisChik
07-18-2004, 05:19 PM
Is it because of carb and/or sugar content? I eat some fat free dairy (mostly in the form of fat free cottage cheese and fat free shredded cheese on salad or veggies). I know that dairy does have some carbs and sugar, but I never thought it to be at amounts that it couldn't be included in my training diet (moderation being the key). Are there forms of dairy that are less acceptable than others (i.e. plain yogurt seems to have more carbs than cheese)? And how do you all get in your calcium every day?

Just wondering the reasons for the anti-dairy advice that I see as I may want to reconsider its place in my diet.

Emma-Leigh
07-19-2004, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by TennisChik
Is it because of carb and/or sugar content? I eat some fat free dairy (mostly in the form of fat free cottage cheese and fat free shredded cheese on salad or veggies). I know that dairy does have some carbs and sugar, but I never thought it to be at amounts that it couldn't be included in my training diet (moderation being the key). Are there forms of dairy that are less acceptable than others (i.e. plain yogurt seems to have more carbs than cheese)? And how do you all get in your calcium every day?

Just wondering the reasons for the anti-dairy advice that I see as I may want to reconsider its place in my diet.


Some people do not like dairy because of the carbs/sugars, others don't like it because it makes them bloat, some stay away because they don't believe we should drink milk - it is a personal thing.

I include lots of dairy in my diet - I eat a lot of cottage cheese and have fat-free/sugar-free yoghurt as well. Little bit of skim milk too. I feel the benifits of milk (calcium, anabolic potential, fat-reduction properties) far outweigh any of the potential negatives...

A few things:
* The carbs in milk is lactose, which is a low GI carb so it does not spike blood glucose
* Milk products have been shown to help decrease fat mass/improve body composition
* The proteins are top quality - whey and casein... meaning milk is highly anabolic and anti-catabolic
* The calcium in dairy is of the highest bioavalability of food sources, unlike sources such as leafy vegetables (the oxalates in these foods prevents the absorption of the majority of the calcium)
* It is packed with other healthy vitamins and minerals that do a body good.

Of course, moderation is the key, but if your body reacts well to dairy then there is no reason to take it out.

MsFit
07-19-2004, 06:49 AM
I have a low opinon of dairy, processed dairy that is. I'm convenienced it's the cause of early osteoporosis and other negative health issues. Raw dairy, from healthy cattle is fine.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=299221&highlight=raw+dairy

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284608&highlight=raw+dairy

Dairy can be obtained from many vegetables, which are also loaded with vitamines, minerals, and antioxidants. Due to dairys processing, these things are removed. Degenerative diseases are at an all time high and occuring in yournger and younger people, and it's because of our poor eating habits. Processed food is the staple of the majoritys diet. Dairy, unless it's raw and from healthy cattle, is no different.

Ravenous_T
07-20-2004, 07:02 PM
I personally eat quite a bit of dairy and have no ill effects from it. The fact is, even if you replace the dairy with meat, you are still getting food that is tainted with hormones and antibiotics. Unless you get organic meats, the animals are fed the same crap that goes into dairy cows (I beleive chickens are not fed hormones though). Even most of the meats nowdays are processed in a "brine" as well (once again, count organic out).

moody_weasel
07-21-2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by TennisChik
Is it because of carb and/or sugar content?

Could be that it has too many carbs for the low-carb-league and it also seems that a lot of people in the US are lactose-intolerant.

just doin it!
07-21-2004, 02:52 PM
If the carbs in milk are the lactose, then what is lactose free milk made from? Do they put in another kind of sugar to make up for it, and if so would this spike insulin levels? I ask because I only drink lactose free skim but would stop if it spikes me.

Ravenous_T
07-21-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by just doin it!
If the carbs in milk are the lactose, then what is lactose free milk made from? Do they put in another kind of sugar to make up for it, and if so would this spike insulin levels? I ask because I only drink lactose free skim but would stop if it spikes me.


I'm curious about this as well. My husband drinks lactose free milk and it taste sickenly sweet to me. It must have some kind of added sugar.

Kahless
07-22-2004, 02:07 PM
I don't drink dairy because the puss that comes out of a popped zit has the same chemical makeup as dairy milk. And the protein in dairy was found to be an excellent glue and is used by the glue industry everywhere. And yes its been linked to be a cause of Osteoperosis. It actually leaches calcium from your bones.

Alicat
07-22-2004, 11:24 PM
IMHO, dairy is just bad - I feel so much better since eliminating it from my diet 2.5 years ago. Let's face it, it's meant for baby cows, not people... I've always wondered where the idea came from actually, I mean, who first decided to squeeze and see what it tasted like... ? :confused:

moody_weasel
07-23-2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Alicat
I've always wondered where the idea came from actually, I mean, who first decided to squeeze and see what it tasted like... ? :confused:

LOL
I love milk but it has to be fresh. That pasteurized crap tastes like it has gone bad ages ago. <shudder>

Ravenous_T, don't they have to list anything they add on the food label?

Natbornthrilla
07-27-2004, 08:29 PM
Why are they advertising that it is good for fat loss?

Emma-Leigh
07-28-2004, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by Natbornthrilla
Why are they advertising that it is good for fat loss?

Because of these:

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/1/252S?
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/full/14/9/1132?
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/9/2682

just doin it!
07-28-2004, 03:35 PM
Here is the rundown on my lactose free milk: ingredients:skim milk,lactase,vitamin A palmitate,vitamin D3
Per serving: 78 cals, 11 g protein, 0.2g fat, 8.g carbs.
Would this be considered a protein or a carb, just wondering how it belongs in my diet?

MagicPunt
07-31-2004, 10:57 PM
they converted lactose to lactase (a minor molecule change i cant remember which)

similar to converting sucrose (table sugar) to sucralose (Splenda sweetener)


i believe its still a carb and should be treated like such, howere 40% of skim milk is protein, so drink up

bjt4fitness
08-01-2004, 09:28 AM
I am considering cutting our dairy, but what are other good sources of calcium? I would like to get 1000 to 1500 mg a day. I find this hard to do without lf cottage cheese, lf yogart, etc. but I am very open to other options.

Emma-Leigh
08-02-2004, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by bjt4fitness
I am considering cutting our dairy, but what are other good sources of calcium? I would like to get 1000 to 1500 mg a day. I find this hard to do without lf cottage cheese, lf yogart, etc. but I am very open to other options.

Unless you are specifically lactose intolerant I would caution against dropping dairy - it will not make you 'loose fat' faster than keeping it in (see above studies) and has been linked to weight loss, increased satiety, decreased fat-mass (in addition to better bone health!!).

There are not many 'high biologically available' sources of calcium - tofu/soy products are nearly as good, salmon with the bones is also ok... Things like green leafy vegetables are of some what limited value due to the oxalates also in these things - these bind the calcium and prevent it's absorption... Some other things like almonds, black-strap molasses, dried figs etc also have ok calcium sources but are not really ideal as they are highly calorie dense for the amount you would have to eat to get a good intake.

I would suggest a good Ca suppliment - something with a high % of calcium citrate (highest bioavailability) which also has things like Mg, Vit D, Vit A and possibly copper - these are also vital for bone health and will help with absorption...

paradesend
08-07-2004, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by Kahless
I don't drink dairy because the puss that comes out of a popped zit has the same chemical makeup as dairy milk.


I would have been a much happier person not knowing that...thanks :)

Personally I love milk it is my fav food since I can remember and Im not cutting out a daily glass of milk for no-one or nothing.....

SkinnyTallGuy
08-29-2004, 09:52 PM
That popped zit thing is just plain gross if its true. I was going to skip from vanillia soy milk to non fait dairy but not after that post.

Emma-Leigh
08-30-2004, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by SkinnyTallGuy
That popped zit thing is just plain gross if its true. I was going to skip from vanillia soy milk to non fait dairy but not after that post.

It isn't true.

Pus is dead cells, mostly neutrophils (an immune cell in your body). Milk is screened for cell counts - If the cell count of the milk is too high then it is not included in the 'vat' and the farmer is penalised severely in terms of money rewards...

Milk is a secretion from a gland - it is made of up things such as water, protein and carbohydrates, fats and minerals/vitamins.

It is not pus.

ChocoChick
08-30-2004, 09:43 AM
Even the American academy of Pediatrics is beginning to question whether children (or anyone) should rink milk.

Here's a good, non-inflammatory article: http://members.tripod.com/~josquin/milk.htm

P.S. In the US, milk is allowed to have a certain number of "pus" cells. Although some pus cells are screened out in the process of treating milk as it moves from cow to supermarket, others remain.

Hibiscus09
08-30-2004, 12:09 PM
This problem exists in cows that have been treated with bovine growth hormone. There are stores that sell milk that is produced by cows that have not been injected with hormones. Kroger is one. Ben & Jerry's also does not use hormone injected cows if you'd like some bad for you icecream without the hormones. :D

The cows are given hormones to increase milk production. They then get mastitis and are treated with antibiotics. Therefore, hormones, pussy crud and drugs may make their way into many dairy products. You can, however, find dairy products that have not been produced via hormone injected cows.

I have heard that dairy products may be the cause of the high rise of ear infections in children, but have not read up on that.

Titania
08-30-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Emma-Leigh
Because of these:

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/1/252S?
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/full/14/9/1132?
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/9/2682
It's interesting to note the source of some of this information, Emma-Leigh.
"The National Dairy Council, Rosemont, Illinois 60018-5616, USA"

I used to consume a large amount of dairy, believing it was actually good for me. Then I did some more research and found out otherwise.

Girlie
08-30-2004, 06:57 PM
yes, the dairy industry funds research on its own products, but you'll also note the other two articles do not site the dairy industry. . . here are a few more (all also from scientific journals). . . not to be too much of a snob (ok, yeah, being a snob), but the anti-dairy link seems to be primarily someone's opinion, not published, peer-reviewed research. . .

how dairy can increase fat burn:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15294534

how dairy decreases snacking:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15294585

how dairy can decrease your chance of colorectal cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15240785

while I completely respect that some people just don't like dairy, I have yet to find in my literature search a study conducted by a major laboratory that indicates that dairy is unhealthy. . .

on the other hand, the dairy industry is a VERY powerful lobby, it's hard to say since the government controls the purse strings on A LOT of research

while I know it's "gross" to think that some of the proteins or cells from pus or whatever are in something you consume, it's not really all that more disgusting (relatively speaking) than eating a chicken's "armpit"

Titania
08-30-2004, 07:17 PM
Hmmm....at the end of these:

"how dairy can increase fat burn:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=15294534"
"how dairy decreases snacking: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=15294585"

is this:
"Acknowledgement - The study was funded by Dairy Australia"

They are hardly going to publish anything that could hurt their profit margins.

Titania
08-30-2004, 07:23 PM
There's plenty of other research about the dangers of dairy.
A Quick google search (http://216.239.37.99/search?as_q=dangers+of+dairy&num=10&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images) will reveal some of them.

Emma-Leigh
08-30-2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Girlie
while I know it's "gross" to think that some of the proteins or cells from pus or whatever are in something you consume, it's not really all that more disgusting (relatively speaking) than eating a chicken's "armpit"

Or an egg for that matter - which, if you think of it in terms of what it is and the path that it travels through the hen, is just as bad.

Then you could go onto things such as rennant used in cheese making (which is the stomach lining from calves) or gelatine (boiled collagen from skin/hooves of cattle) or where some drugs come from (eg: Some hormonal therapy drugs come from equine urine) and you get into all sorts of 'gross' things.

Then, of course, there is the 'unknown' gross things that happen during harvesting and processing in factories - the number of rodents that get 'harvested' and chopped into cereal crops, the number of contaminants that get processed into your peanut butter... The list goes on.


In relation to milk - in Australia it is illegal to use Bovine Growth Hormone.

Also, animals treated with antibiotics are not milked with the herd. See, animals on drugs or antibiotics are not milked into the vat as there are WHP (with-holding periods - which is the time required for a farmer to wait between giving the animal the drug and the time it is allowed to be milked again) that are legally binding. If these substances are found in the milk at high concentrations then the milk is discarded and he farmer looses money.

So, these animals are milked seperately and the milk discarded. Those with high somatic cell counts are not milked into the herd collection either. Farmers get severly penalised for this kind of thing. Not only that, but animals with high cell counts have mastitis - and this severely compromises their ability to produce milk (both in that lactation cycle and in future lactation cycles due to damage to their mammary glands). This means farmers loose money and so they do everything in their power to PREVENT this from occuring.

On top of that the milk is then pasturised, which in my opinion is a good thing. Although people say it makes the milk 'processed' I would rather that than risk getting TB or Brucellosis from untreated milk.

Hibiscus09
08-30-2004, 07:42 PM
In relation to milk - in Australia it is illegal to use Bovine Growth Hormone.

Wish that were the case here!

Titania
08-30-2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Emma-Leigh
.....Then you could go onto things such as rennant used in cheese making (which is the stomach lining from calves) or gelatine (boiled collagen from skin/hooves of cattle) or where some drugs come from (eg: Some hormonal therapy drugs come from equine urine) and you get into all sorts of 'gross' things.

Then, of course, there is the 'unknown' gross things that happen during harvesting and processing in factories - the number of rodents that get 'harvested' and chopped into cereal crops, the number of contaminants that get processed into your peanut butter... The list goes on......................
I wholeheartedly agree with you on these points. :)
One drug commonly used for HRT is called Premarin. The name actually comes from Pregnant Mares Urine.

Girlie
08-30-2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Titania
There's plenty of other research about the dangers of dairy.
A Quick google search (http://216.239.37.99/search?as_q=dangers+of+dairy&num=10&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images) will reveal some of them.

umm. . . I'm going to be a terrible snob again. . . google is not exactly pubmed, the best site on the internet for solid medicine related literature searches. . .

I'm looking at some of the sites though, I see the institute and their sources. . . looks pretty decent. . .I'd have to read all of the articles to look at their population sample size etc. . . . I guess I have some reading to do :D

. . . oh, wow, most of these are almost a decade old. . . those are going to be hard to track down. . . that's also strike one though. . . a decade ago we thought high carb was good nutrition :)

ok. . . editing my post as I read more. . . the cancer related studies seem to correlate an increase in risk to WHOLE milk. . . that would be a significant increase of fat intake which has much more directly been linked to increase cancer risk. . .

I definitely agree that the hormones and other crud they feed dairy cows (not to mention the toxins in our environment these days) are a huge drawback due to the lack of information available on their exact effects. . . but there's always the organic stuff

MSR
09-01-2004, 01:43 AM
I have read a lot of articles both for and against dairy, and am yet to be wholly convinced either way. I dont consume much dairy myself, sometimes a bit of milk in my tea but thats about it and I have had no ill effects from avoiding dairy. I make sure I eat plenty of greens. Thou some people argue you get more calcium from milk, and some say greens, it is at least agreed you need calcium for you bones.

Something that someone once pointed out to me, that seems to make alot of sense in the whole dairy debate is that humans are the only mamal to continue to consume milk after infancy, and even then we must get it from other sources. I must ask, is this because we know breast milk to be vital for our young that we assume it is therfore good for us as adults, even though our digestive system goes through changes as we grow so we can digest proper food, and no longer digest milk in the same way?

I am by no means an expert and am merely repeating what was written by others, but it seems to make sense to me. We know milk is high in calcium and vital to babies do we therefore forget we may not be able to digest it as adults?

Girlie
09-01-2004, 05:27 AM
We eat it for the same reason that we eat anything else. . . itís a source of energy and it tastes pretty good (in many opinions.) When humans first started to consume milk, Iím pretty sure ďhigh in calciumĒ wasnít a strong selling point. ;) Most individuals do posses the enzymes required for the digestion of milk. If they didnít then everyone would end up with diarrhea after consuming dairy products.

Most other mammals donít exactly have a way of obtaining milk from other animals; they lack opposable thumbs. Even then, most monkeys/apes etc. donít exactly domesticate animals. Iím pretty sure (besides being from different ecological zones, that a wild cow wouldnít sit still for a gorilla.)

Most other animals donít store food the way we do. No other animals cook their food. Some other mammals consume bone raw. Every organism has slightly different metabolic requirements. These manifest even at the level of bacteria! There are plenty of mammals that arenít omnivorous.

MSR
09-01-2004, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Girlie
......besides being from different ecological zones, that a wild cow wouldn’t sit still for a gorilla.


lol

good point, like I said Im no expert, just sounded pretty good to me at the time, each to their own I guess :)

moody_weasel
09-01-2004, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by Titania
There's plenty of other research about the dangers of dairy.
A Quick google search (http://216.239.37.99/search?as_q=dangers+of+dairy&num=10&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images) will reveal some of them.

Wonderful. Please check out link # 8 of those who come up:

http://www.dhmo.org/

You think dairy is bad? Check out that site and the dangers of dairy actually pale in comparison.

LAO ;)