PDA

View Full Version : split vs fbody-myths or not?l



tango650
07-05-2004, 10:30 AM
Ok, I am getting different input and can not seem to properly find the answer to this question (if there is one, LOL):

Why do many people feel working their muscle groups once per week on a split routine is better than a fully body 2-3 times per week?
I am a mesomorph and put on muscle easily. I do my full body, twice per week, 3 exercises per muscle in each session. I lift 6-8 reps to total fatigue, so it is heavy.
If I were to do one workout per week for each muscle group I might go forward a little, but not as much as working it a couple of times with good rest in between.

Any thoughts?
tango

Thunder_Bunny
07-06-2004, 04:59 AM
I believe the idea is that you're able to work the muscle much more intensely if you break them up.

I find that doing full-body workouts takes a long time in the gym, and they're not as intense because I'm beginning to tire by the before the session has ended.

At the end of the day, I think everybody is different and what works best for one person might be different for another. Maybe you should try a split program one of these days and judge what you prefer.

tango650
07-06-2004, 12:02 PM
I have been researching this pretty handily. I think that I lift pretty heavy, (for me) and I am moving forward to lifting in leaps and bounds. I eat clean, I eat enough protein, I PUSH myself HARD to total muscle fatigue BUT I lift full body twice per week. The 2nd lift day is lighter than the first.
It is working for me VERY well. So...I will stick to it. I think many beginners do full body, but not to the degree that I do.
Works for me....
tango

Thunder_Bunny
07-06-2004, 03:51 PM
*Shrug*

Well, I wasn't arguing with ya. My opinion is that everyone is different. I also believe you shouldn't knock something until you've tried it. :p

tango650
07-07-2004, 06:59 AM
I was not arguing, just being factual as I am want to be.
I did not say that I had not tried it, I am just in the midst of uderstanding what makes the most impact on the muscle, and why.
I did a split routine a year ago and I found it took a lot of my time travelling to and from the gym, therefore I started a fullbody routine.
Actually, I am ok on this question now. Thanks for the input.
tango

moody_weasel
07-07-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Thunder_Bunny

I find that doing full-body workouts takes a long time in the gym, and they're not as intense because I'm beginning to tire by the before the session has ended.


I do full-body workouts and my routine takes an hour tops - including warm-up.

bscrusher
07-07-2004, 05:41 PM
interesting thread. a very effective (for strength, not muscle mass) full body workout can be as short as 20 minutes. it can be as intense as you make it. so far i have found the fastest muscle gains with a 3 way split, 2 sessions a week, 45 minutes per workout. for a true mesomorph anything will work, and for quite some time.

ChocoChick
07-07-2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by bscrusher
i have found the fastest muscle gains with a 3 way split, 2 sessions a week, 45 minutes per workout.

Can you elaborate on what this is? Or point me to an example?

Thanks!!

bscrusher
07-07-2004, 09:59 PM
dbl, try this -

day 1 - back squats, calves

day 2 - dls, barbell curl,

day 3 - bench press, push press, skullcrushers.

this is the best split i know of. high intensity is very important. it can and should be modified slightly every 6 or 8 weeks. the first lift of your session is always a big compound multi-joint lift. in general start with 2 or 3 sets of warm-ups for the first lift. then hit one set heavy and close to muscle failure for squats and dls, bp can go to failure. squat should be 10 reps, bp should fail at 5 - 7 reps. the key to success is to not tire yourself out with warm-ups.
for the 2nd and 3rd lifts you are already warmed up. do 1 light warm-up set for calves or bbell curl or push press then hit your high intensity set. one high intensity set for each excercise.
if you do a third lift such as skull crushers, little to no additional warm-up is required.
do your dls 1 at a time, do only 10 heavy dls. think of your heavy dls as 10 sets of 1 rep. with squats don't squat until you fall down. as you feel your legs getting weak and shaky don't go down as far, stay liftng and stay in control. when your squats have a very small rom and you are gasping for breath the set is done.
this program is very close to mike mentzer/dorian yates doctrine. it really works for everyone. recovery and hydration is incredibly important as is proper lifting technique and total focus. no cardio, no direct ab work. all these lifts slam the abs, and you will be huffing and puffing like a marathoner.

tango650
07-08-2004, 07:05 AM
I lift heavy for me (6-8 reps, sometimes 4 if I am pyramiding) and have found that if I warm the body up by walking over to the gym (10 min's) that I dont yet need to do warm up sets. I find this relates more to those who are lifting REALLY REALLY heavy weights. That should be defined in your post... Yes? No?
tango

MsFit
07-08-2004, 07:13 AM
It takes a muscle 7-10 days to recover. If you train a muscle before it's fully recovered, it won't grow to your full advantage. Eventually you'll burn out and plateau.

Many times beginners will see changes with more training, say 3 times a week - full body.

The bottom line is to listen to your body. If what you are currently doing is working, don't change it. It won't be long before you'll have to make adjustments though, and from there you can use a different split.

ChocoChick
07-08-2004, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by bscrusher
dbl, try this -

day 1 - back squats, calves

day 2 - dls, barbell curl,

day 3 - bench press, push press, skullcrushers.



This looks interesting. Does the cycle repeat, i.e.:
Day 1
Day 2
Day 3
Day 1
etc.

Are there rest days?

Thanks!

Alicat
07-08-2004, 02:14 PM
My three day split it Mon, Weds, Fri.

bscrusher
07-08-2004, 08:19 PM
hi dbl, the cycle can look like this...

day 1 - tuesday

day 2 - friday

day 3 - the next tuesday

day 1 again - the next friday

and so on...

so each muscle or muscle group gets approximately 9 or 10 days to recover. your whole body gets 2 or 3 total rest days at a time. you will need it. i would say i have average genetic potential and a very busy and physical lifestyle. people in a situation different from mine may get best results from a slightly modified plan.

tango, you are right not to waste too much time and energy on warm-ups. however pyramiding up is usually identical to a standard warm-up, too much is counter productive. the standard pyramid down is a total waste of time.

to clarify, this program is about lifting very heavy for 1 set of each exercise and going to muscle failure or very close with low reps on that one set.

a beginner must work up gradually to the level of intensity that should be used, be smart, don't overtrain, don't get sloppy and get hurt.

i meant to write that the plan could be modified slightly every 6 - 9 weeks, the important thing is don't change if you are still going up in weight used and getting stronger. change something when your progress stalls.

ChocoChick
07-09-2004, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by bscrusher
hi dbl, the cycle can look like this...

day 1 - tuesday

day 2 - friday

day 3 - the next tuesday

day 1 again - the next friday

and so on...

Thanks, Bscrusher. I was wondering what you meant when you said "3 way split, 2 sessions a week, " and now I understand.

Thanks again!

nsouth
07-09-2004, 07:50 AM
I haven't done a full body workout since I started training 3 years ago. I was dedicated to a 4-day split (back/bis, chest/tris, legs, shoulders/calves). I made huge gains with this program. Unfortunately after a month off (change in priorities) my bodyfat crept up. So now my new trainer has suggested a full-body routine 3-4/week. Did my first one last night. It is so easy to slack off with this routine! I mean if you aren't maxing out with every set (as there are only 2 sets per exercise) you aren't getting anything! I just had to keep reminding myself through the whole progression that I didn't have 5 sets to get to failure.

It'll take some getting used to ...

tango650
07-12-2004, 07:11 AM
I have actually been givening this a LOT of thought. I am thinking pretty seriously of going into the gym and doing 3 exercises for my upper body in one session. Then, a few days later doing the legs. Why? I dont like going to the gym 3-4 times per week in a spit routine, I prefer to get it over with as I am a busy busy lady.

Also, I am finding that doing my heavy lifting twice per week for the same muscle is not leading to good recouperation AND because of the 2 days lifting heavy, it is interfering with swimming and other cardio as I am fatigued.

So...I am going to change this to what I indicated, 1 day upper body 3 exercisess of 3 sets for each muscle. Another day for the leggies. Looking forward to my new routine, it starts this week.

QUESTION: why does scrusher think pyramid down is not a good idea. Just wondering......
tango

bscrusher
07-12-2004, 07:19 PM
hi tango, i wonder why anyone ever thought the pyramid down was a good idea. why would anyone excercise a muscle or muscle group after a maximum effort? for endurance? there are better ways. the best thing that can be said for the pyramid down is that if you are excercising that way at least you are excercising and it is probably better than no excercise at all.

you may find the 2 day a week lifting schedule your best ever, have fun.

trnurbdy48
07-12-2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by MsFit
It takes a muscle 7-10 days to recover. If you train a muscle before it's fully recovered, it won't grow to your full advantage. Eventually you'll burn out and plateau.

Many times beginners will see changes with more training, say 3 times a week - full body.

The bottom line is to listen to your body. If what you are currently doing is working, don't change it. It won't be long before you'll have to make adjustments though, and from there you can use a different split.


As usual, Ms. Fit has said it well!

Ms. Highside
01-04-2005, 04:10 PM
I thought this old thread was worth bumping due to some of bscrusher's posts. I read tons of posts on this board all the time... but I don't post too often because I try to find answers without repeating questions too often (if possible).


bscrusher...

This is the first time I've read a post that clearly defines your recommendations for an actual workout routine....and not just your "NOT to do" comments everywhere. I'm glad I finally found it.

Per your advice on my intro post (few months back), I have cut back from a 4-5 day workout routine to lifting only 3 days/week and doing my cardio either after my workout (not your recommendation) and/or on "non-lifting" days. I had trouble on more then a few occasions trying to get my workout completed in less than 45 minutes.

I'd really like to give this workout a try because it seems very different, and interesting to me... and much less time consuming. Now I finally understand how you can get through a workout in 45 minutes. I was doing too many sets of isolated exercises. I can't wait to see the results of following this program for a while.

Here's my question....

Would you recommend this type of workout routine no matter where you were in you cut/bulk/fat loss stages???

I'm currently trying to "cut" as much as I can as hard as I can for the next 6 weeks. I'm not trying to get ready for a show or anything... but a life event that I'd like to look my best for. I have finally cleaned up my diet again after having too many holiday cheats (40/40/20, approx 1500 calories).... and I'm challenging myself to see how much I can lose within that timeframe.

Should I use this routine now... doing my cardio on alternate days and in 2nd gym sessions, or is this routine more designed for bulking???


BTW... I gave up completely on running/jogging and my knee is doing much better. My shoulder has had it's good and bad days, but for the most part it's been doing very well too. Screw the doc that told me not to workout. :mad:

shadowII
01-04-2005, 05:18 PM
i'm a bscrusher fan too, but i think he just got banned. i don't think severe cutting is a good idea for the inexperienced. it will probably cause more harm than good. i would say just tighten up your diet. don't make a special effort to decrease calories, just cut down sweets and processed food and replace with fresh vegtables and fruit.

Ravenous_T
01-04-2005, 05:37 PM
i'm a bscrusher fan too, but i think he just got banned. i don't think severe cutting is a good idea for the inexperienced. it will probably cause more harm than good. i would say just tighten up your diet. don't make a special effort to decrease calories, just cut down sweets and processed food and replace with fresh vegtables and fruit.


What makes you think he was banned? It would say "banned" under his username if that was the case.

Ms. Highside
01-05-2005, 01:00 AM
i'm a bscrusher fan too, but i think he just got banned. i don't think severe cutting is a good idea for the inexperienced. it will probably cause more harm than good. i would say just tighten up your diet. don't make a special effort to decrease calories, just cut down sweets and processed food and replace with fresh vegtables and fruit.

I appreciate your advice. Not to sound defensive, but I don't think I'd call myself inexperienced. Of course, I don't claim to be an expert either, hence the reason I'm open and ask for advice. I've got a goal in mind... with a time frame I'm trying to stay within. I understand you mean well, but you don't know anything about me, so it's hard for you to make recommendations that would make sense for me.

The only time I ever touch sweets and processed foods are during holiday parties/events. I eliminated that stuff out of my life years ago (except for a few times when I "fell off the wagon"). Although I've never competed, I've been working out for the better part of the last 14 years.... 6 of those years at the Mecca (Gold's) in Venice. I had interest in trying to compete back then, but I lost interest... and my shape for a while. If if wasn't for some of life's circumstances and several surgeries, I wouldn't be in the shape I'm in now.

My diet normally consists mainly of chicken, fish and protein shakes (occasionally red meat), with tons of veggies and some whole grains (oats, ground flaxseed, fiber one, etc.), and limited dairy and nuts.... no white stuff. I rarely even use artificial sweetners except for what's in my protein shake. If I want something sweet, I use stevia. I've already dropped my calories down to about 14-1500 from 1800.... and I'm eating approx 40/40/20.... although sometimes it turns out to be closer to 40/30/30. ( I was following low-carb for a while and eating closer to 35/10/55, but increased my carbs for more energy during my workouts)

Maybe you wouldn't call this cutting.... but I know my BMR is around 1500 without any lifestyle or exercise calories.... so I thought it would be a safe number and it's below my recent caloric intake, and well below my holiday cheating intake. :o

Do you think this is "severe cutting" for someone with my background?
What do you think about my original question on following his workout routine (much less time then my current one), and bumping up the cardio as much as possible.... as long as it's not post workout???

I haven't done as much cardio as I thought I should be doing to try to lean out quickly (or "cut")... but following my current 3 day split and keeping my diet clean, I'm dropping about 1/2 pound every day or two. I'm currently at 152 and I'm aiming for something around 140ish, so we're only talking about 12 pounds within the next 6 weeks. If I can drop an average of about 2 pounds a week, I'd be super happy.... and reach my mini-goal.

Sorry to write you a book.... but I assume you don't know anything about me.

Suggestions?
Comments?

I hope bs isn't banned. His advice, although harsh, is refreshing...especially when some of it goes against everything I've been taught for so many years.

shadowII
01-05-2005, 11:56 AM
so you are experienced in cutting for body building competitions? how many have you done, and at what level?

2 pounds a week for 6 weeks?

maybe that is not severe for someone who weighs 152.

realize this, you almost certainly will be losing 4 pounds fat and 8 pounds of muscle. if that is what you want, fine.

i will bet you can make yourself look leaner and better in 6 weeks by following a plan that is focused more on how you look rather than some arbitrary number on a scale.

Ms. Highside
01-05-2005, 03:21 PM
The number is exactly that... arbitrary. Notice the "ish". I know what my body looks like around that weight. I'm more concerned about fitting into some more of my clothing, and flattening my stomach. To get where I really want to be, I'll probably end up around 135... but I'm not looking to get there anytime soon. I can take my time with the last 5 pounds that I know create the big difference in my last trouble spot areas.

No... I've never competed, but I've spent lots of time around dozens of people who have and helped a few prepare for their shows. As I said, I'm not interested in cutting for a competition. More power to those who are... but it's not for me. When I was younger, it sounded exciting, but it puts the body through too much stress, and it's not worth it for me personally.

The "experience" I was referring to was eating healthy and not being a newbie in the weightroom. I did not insult you in any way except to point out that you didn't know me, so I thought you needed to have more info about me so you could help advise me. There was no reason for your tone.

I'm quite sure that I won't be dropping 8 pounds of muscle to reach my mini-goal. I keep an eye on my bodyfat/LBM levels and I haven't lost any muscle since the first time I ever was tested many years ago. Actually, I've gained muscle, even when I was neglecting nutrition and training for a while.

I'm already dropping about 1/2 pound a day and I haven't even added much extra cardio. As long as I keep dropping, I'm not going to either. I'll use "extra" cardio to break a stall if I hit one. The calorie cut alone has been working well for me.

Back to the actual question again....

Can you answer me on my original question???
What do you think of bscrusher's routine???
Do you think it's good to stick to mainly compound movements when you are not in a bulking stage???
Do you think it would be good for me to try while I'm doing a pseudo-cut...or do you think I should stick to my normal 3-day split of bodypart training???

A derrogatory tone is not necessary to get your point across.

Thanks again for your advice.

MotoGirl
01-05-2005, 03:24 PM
i'm a bscrusher fan too, but i think he just got banned.

Funny, I was sure that you are indeed bscrusher.

Gabrielle
01-05-2005, 03:52 PM
Funny, I was sure that you are indeed bscrusher.
LOL

Ms. Highside
01-05-2005, 04:04 PM
Sure writes the same.... :rolleyes:

bs/shadow: You fooled me this time.... even though I knew you sounded familiar. :)

Alinasmommy
01-05-2005, 06:49 PM
definitley the same person. ugh!

Ravenous_T
01-05-2005, 06:57 PM
Looks like bs has hit a new low.

shadowII
01-05-2005, 08:03 PM
The number is exactly that... arbitrary. Notice the "ish". I know what my body looks like around that weight. I'm more concerned about fitting into some more of my clothing, and flattening my stomach. To get where I really want to be, I'll probably end up around 135... but I'm not looking to get there anytime soon. I can take my time with the last 5 pounds that I know create the big difference in my last trouble spot areas.

No... I've never competed, but I've spent lots of time around dozens of people who have and helped a few prepare for their shows. As I said, I'm not interested in cutting for a competition. More power to those who are... but it's not for me. When I was younger, it sounded exciting, but it puts the body through too much stress, and it's not worth it for me personally.

The "experience" I was referring to was eating healthy and not being a newbie in the weightroom. I did not insult you in any way except to point out that you didn't know me, so I thought you needed to have more info about me so you could help advise me. There was no reason for your tone.

I'm quite sure that I won't be dropping 8 pounds of muscle to reach my mini-goal. I keep an eye on my bodyfat/LBM levels and I haven't lost any muscle since the first time I ever was tested many years ago. Actually, I've gained muscle, even when I was neglecting nutrition and training for a while.

I'm already dropping about 1/2 pound a day and I haven't even added much extra cardio. As long as I keep dropping, I'm not going to either. I'll use "extra" cardio to break a stall if I hit one. The calorie cut alone has been working well for me.

Back to the actual question again....

Can you answer me on my original question???
What do you think of bscrusher's routine???
Do you think it's good to stick to mainly compound movements when you are not in a bulking stage???
Do you think it would be good for me to try while I'm doing a pseudo-cut...or do you think I should stick to my normal 3-day split of bodypart training???

A derrogatory tone is not necessary to get your point across.

Thanks again for your advice.

please remove the word "tone" from your vocabulary.

you ask some pretty incredible questions for someone who claims to know something about cutting.

please explain how not doing compound lifts would help with cutting.

what do you mean by "pseudo cut"?

see what bscrusher wrote about body part training on this thread.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=347831


guess what? you gained some muscle. do you think that muscle is some magic substance that does not take up any space? it does take up space.

you... are... b-i-g-g-e-r now. BUY SOME NEW CLOTHES.

Alinasmommy
01-05-2005, 09:29 PM
bscrusher I thought you were banned. Why are you still around?

Ms. Highside
01-06-2005, 02:45 AM
Let's see if I can find answer your questions, even though you ignore mine and throw me an attitude instead of a response. Maybe you should just go jab yourself with some more test or something.

I started posting on this topic giving you kudos and respect for your knowledge... but I'd rather not deal with your arrogance anymore. Tough love is appreciated... but rudeness is not. I understand why you were banned. I just wish other people would offer advice to me. It seems that you are the one who always responds to my questions.

NO.. I gained a bunch of fat, and I'm trying to lose it. I don't want bigger clothes. I want a smaller flatter waist.

You completely misunderstood everything I said. I am interested in following your routine based solely on compound movements, and I was just asking for clarification to make sure it was the smartest thing to do, regardless of whether you were cutting, losing fat, or bulking... that's ALL. The assumption was already there that I believed it was a good plan and wanted to start doing it, but I was looking for clarification. That was the sole purpose of all of my posts on this topic!!! Instead of simply saying "yes".... you rip apart everything I say and attack for no reason, and pull everything off topic.

I referred to a pseudo-cut meaning something other then the severe cutting that a bodybuilder does when they are preparing for a contest. I'm not interested in getting that lean... only to reach somewhere between 15-18%, not competitive levels. I named it this because I thought you inferred that I wasn't really "cutting." (BTW... I definately want to gain more muscle, but right now, I've got too much fat to worry about... one step at a time.)

I have read that thread several times.... and I have it saved in my subscriptions as a reference. It really sucks that you are so full of valuable information.... but it has to come out sounding like piss and vinegar all the time. You've got a split personality in almost every post.... nice one sentence, then an a$$hole the next.

Why??


Just forget about answering, (banned or not).... I just wanted to clarify a few things.

shadowII
01-06-2005, 11:49 AM
maybe it is YOU miss h, who is too sensitive. instead of worrying about how warm and fuzzy the other online personas are, why don't you concentrate on your training?

the reason i ask questions is to get you to THINK...

... AND for the benefit of the other readers on this forum, to get THEM to think.

discovering your own ignorance is sometimes not comfortable, but it is also the way to wisdom and more effective training.

if you are afraid to go outside your comfort zone, you will never make much progress.

Seosaid
01-06-2005, 01:57 PM
Let me first begin by telling you that WHEN you give advices they are mostly valuable.

Although most of the time you do not give any advice, you blatantly throw an attitude and patronize people.

I think you should take this ban as a warning; stop washing your dirty laundry on the forum everyday and being arrogant with anyone who, god forbids, dares not agreeing with you.

Nobody here wants to read your condescending opinion, get off you high horses, and **listen** to this warning instead of acting like a Mr-Know-It-All and denigrating every individual who do not strictly adhere to you opinion.

You said yourself that discovering your own ignorance is sometimes not comfortable maybe it is time for you to discover your own ignorance at being a respectful and civil human being.

shadowII
01-06-2005, 02:23 PM
Let me first begin by telling you that WHEN you give advices they are mostly valuable.

thank you.


Although most of the time you do not give any advice, you blatantly throw an attitude and patronize people

i think you have mistaken me for someone else.


I think you should take this ban as a warning; stop washing your dirty laundry

you obviously have no idea what "dirty laundry" is.


on the forum everyday and being arrogant with anyone who, god forbids, dares not agreeing with you.

you also do not know what "arrogant" means.


Nobody here wants to read your condescending opinion, get off you high horses, and **listen** to this warning instead of acting like a Mr-Know-It-All and denigrating every individual who do not strictly adhere to you opinion.

You said yourself that discovering your own ignorance is sometimes not comfortable maybe it is time for you to discover your own ignorance at being a respectful and civil human being.

evidently quite a few people DO want to read what i write. i write to present accurate and relevant information, and to guide people more quickly toward their goals. i do not write to make you, or anyone else feel happy and peppy and covered with seasoned oils.


p.s. miss h, i think it will be a great idea for you to "clarify a few things", in particular your thinking and your writing. you have a lot of work to do.


...