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Bionik
04-28-2004, 06:24 PM
Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

So, wouldn't the first amendment levy the ladder? Would every person that has paid income taxes have to face trial first and be convicted of some crime?

What do you guys think?

CerealKiller
04-28-2004, 06:48 PM
Yes income tax is unconstitutional.

Many people aren't aware that America was conceived in liberty in 1776 and didn't have a permanent income tax until 1913. In fact, the Constitution of the United States prohibited an income tax.

For over a century, the U.S. government survived quite well without an income tax. It operated a small, constitutional government on the revenue from tariffs and excise taxes.

But that changed in 1913 with the passage of the 16th Amendment, authorizing an income tax. In contrast to tariffs and excise taxes, income-tax rates can be raised upward and upward and upward, since most people can't choose to stop working in order to avoid the tax.

That meant the federal government now had virtually unlimited resources to do whatever the politicians wanted. Respect for the Constitution disappeared almost overnight.

Quite a little cottage industry the politicians created.

BigKazWSM747
04-28-2004, 06:54 PM
I may be mistaken but I believe the constitution was ammended to allow for provisions like an income tax b/c when measures were attempted in the late 1800s they were stopped b/c they were ruled unconstitutional. It may be the ammendment effort failed but they went on and passed the measures anyway.

edit: missed your post CerealKiller, board is running slow loading for some reason, so yes the consitution was ammended to allow the income tax. And just how prohibition was an ammendment that was overturned. So the 16th overturned the previous one.

Bionik
04-28-2004, 07:38 PM
So the 16th overturned the previous one.

Great... so now the government can just take anything it demands?

BigKazWSM747
04-28-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Bionik
Great... so now the government can just take anything it demands?

The government has to pass laws first and those laws can't be overturned by the courts for being unconstitutional. They would also have to passed over a possible presidential veto (although most likely if a party controlled the house and senate by a large margin they would probably, although not certainly hold the presidency).

Also the tariff statement imo is a bit misleading because tariffs can be risen (we had a 60% tariff in the mid to late 20s, which is a contrast to I believe the 20% tariff 1825ish). Of course now since we are members of the WTO, if we raise tariffs we face international trade consequences.

Heavily Armed
04-28-2004, 08:55 PM
It's supposedly a voluntary tax system. But you better volunteer, or else. Some people, who know what they're doing, have beaten the system based on it being voluntary. But you really have to know what you're doing and be ready for a court battle. For most, the hastle wouldn't be worth it.

irpker
04-28-2004, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
The government has to pass laws first and those laws can't be overturned by the courts for being unconstitutional. They would also have to passed over a possible presidential veto (although most likely if a party controlled the house and senate by a large margin they would probably, although not certainly hold the presidency).

Do you mean ammendments? The executive branch and judicial branch have nothing to do with the passage of a constitutional ammendment. It only involves the national legislature and state legislatures. Those two branches are totally out of the loop (in theory, but in reality, the president is the head of the party).

Also, the supreme court has the power of judicial review, so they can overturn actions of the executive and legislative branches for being unconstitutional.

This, my friend, is the brilliance of Constitution of the United States of America.

Jcfreak_02
04-28-2004, 11:38 PM
Yes income tax was unconstitutional for the major of our nation's history.
The really interesting part of this thread is since the 16th Amendment negated the 5th amendment, does that mean the other clauses such as due process and miranda rights are also negated?

supergarr
04-28-2004, 11:50 PM
interesting. So have there been any major court cases about this recently? like within the previous 30 years or so? Whats to stop it from being declared unconstitutional now?

Do you think we can survive without an income tax?

(can we please get rid of SS too hehe)

axiombiological
04-29-2004, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by supergarr
interesting. So have there been any major court cases about this recently? like within the previous 30 years or so? Whats to stop it from being declared unconstitutional now?

The courts would never deem it unconstitutional, 1) even if it were not ratified properly, since the 14th amendment's ratification was a total travesty and was completely unconstitutional, but the courts would hold that it is accepted as law, and 2) because our court system has evolved to discard the intent of the meaning, and has adopted a legal positivist mode. The latter issue allows government to do as it wishes.


Do you think we can survive without an income tax?

(can we please get rid of SS too hehe)

We would do better without a federal income tax, as people would retain all of their earnings, while goods and services would decrease in price without the imbedded taxes that occur due to income taxation.

www.fairtax.org

BigKazWSM747
04-29-2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by irpker
Do you mean ammendments? The executive branch and judicial branch have nothing to do with the passage of a constitutional ammendment. It only involves the national legislature and state legislatures. Those two branches are totally out of the loop (in theory, but in reality, the president is the head of the party).

Also, the supreme court has the power of judicial review, so they can overturn actions of the executive and legislative branches for being unconstitutional.

This, my friend, is the brilliance of Constitution of the United States of America.

Your right the supreme court can't veto ammendments. I was aware of this.

BTW for those curious the policy of judical review (supreme court interrupting constitution) was established in Mabrury (sp?) vs. Madison.

LordNeon
04-29-2004, 11:04 AM
Don't even bother with this tax dodging stuff. You'll be the 3,4,63,573,574,725th person to try and fail. The most convincing argument is the "16th Amendment wasn't really ratified" argument, and people have tried that and lost.

A little article on the subject:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_127.html

axiombiological
04-29-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by LordNeon
Don't even bother with this tax dodging stuff. You'll be the 3,4,63,573,574,725th person to try and fail. The most convincing argument is the "16th Amendment wasn't really ratified" argument, and people have tried that and lost.

A little article on the subject:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_127.html

Reason Magazine had a good article last month on the Tax Protest movement. The best bet is not to merely try to "evade" taxation but to inform people of better options, such as the Fair Tax. Make people aware, elect officials who support this, and make them introduce bills addressing this issue.

www.fairtax.org

BigKazWSM747
04-29-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by supergarr
interesting. So have there been any major court cases about this recently? like within the previous 30 years or so? Whats to stop it from being declared unconstitutional now?

Do you think we can survive without an income tax?

(can we please get rid of SS too hehe)

You can not declare an ammendment unconstitutional. The entire point of making an ammendment is because the courts are preventing you from effectively enacting a law or basically making in effect a law that is extremely hard to overturn because the legislature has to do it (w/ 2/3rds approval in both houses) and the courts can't.

enjoyincubus
04-29-2004, 02:08 PM
the government cant make any tax compulsory, because doing such would be unconstitutional. so, they have used terms like "voluntary compliance", but if you call an irs agent, they will tell you that you have no choice when it comes to paying your taxes, even though it says "voluntary" in the constitution.

yes, people are going to jail, and its a tragedy. never before has a government totally worked around the constitution in order to rape our pocketbooks.

you should check out "the federal mafia" by irwin shiff. he was an economist during the LBJ admin. and now is a leader in the tax freedom movement.