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SLTS
04-25-2004, 10:58 PM
ok so heres what i dont get. i was born in a religious believing family. my family doesnt go to church now, but at one time did.

i dont believe it god. i tried when i was younger, i went to church and stuff like that, but the concept to me just working. i could never bring myself to believe that a god exists.

so im a good person. im great to people and i would never hurt anyone. i do many things that would be considered sins, but never harmful to others no matter what it is. and i dont believe in god, i tried, but i could just never bring myself to believe in it because im the type that needs proof to believe something exists.

so even though im a great person and i tried to believe but just couldnt i would go to hell if such a thing acutally existed?

Quantum_Man
04-25-2004, 11:14 PM
Jesus loves you if you believe in him or not. He is simply waiting for you with open arms to accept him as your lord and saviour.

Jesus is God incarnate, fully man yet fully God. He lived a sinless life and was put to death on a cross. But the story doesn't end there. On the 3rd day Jesus was resurrected from the grave, thus conquering death and sin. Jesus died so we wouldn't have to. Because of our sinful nature, and because God is just, therefore demanding justice, we rightly deserve death. But those who put their trust in Jesus do not have to face the wrath and judgment of God because Jesus endured all of that on the cross for us!

God wants a relationship with you, a personal one. You can have one through Jesus Christ.

SLTS, I think you could get some insight by looking at the life of Jesus. All of Christianity hinges on what Jesus did for us on the cross and that he was raised from the dead 3 days later.

Check your PMs. :)

Jcfreak_02
04-26-2004, 01:47 AM
If you want the straight harsh true answer, based upon what you have told us and what scripture says, yes you are bound for Hell. We have all sinned, it is very likely that most of us (I include myslef in this) probobly sin many times a day. What I take great joy is that there is a way to avoid the just punishment for my mistakes. Through Christ's sacrifice grace is offered that we don't have to suffer for our own wrongs. If you have any question or comments I am more than happy to try to help you undertand things as much as I understand them.

JC-orginalbdass
04-26-2004, 06:39 AM
If you need proof that God exists, then what is your proof that God DOESN'T exist?

In order to prove anything, you have to be able to recreate it. This is the scientific method. You can't recreate creation.

For me, the proof is in his creation.

matpal
04-26-2004, 10:41 AM
The problem with us saying "Im a good person. Ilived a good life. I do good things for other people" is that we are looking through man's eyes instead of God's eyes. He is perfect. What seems like something insignificant to us is still sin. That is why, yes, without the atoning blood of Jesus to cover your sins, CHristians beleive you are going to Hell, no matter how "good" you are. Please read this artcile for a terrific exapmle: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263025

BigKazWSM747
04-26-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by JC-orginalbdass
If you need proof that God exists, then what is your proof that God DOESN'T exist?

In order to prove anything, you have to be able to recreate it. This is the scientific method. You can't recreate creation.

For me, the proof is in his creation.

"Wherof one can not speak one must remain silent." -Ludwig Wittgenstein

If you can neither prove nor disprove something then why do you speak of it at all?

Also please specify what you mean by creation and how this proves anything.

BigKazWSM747
04-26-2004, 12:41 PM
Well part of christianity is no one but God is fit to judge other men so no one can 100% certainly tell you what would happen if Christianity is the truth.

It is my understanding though that if you brought up with knowledge of Jesus and were familar with what he did and you did not convert that you would not recieve salvation. (paraphrased) "None can come to the father except by me."

CerealKiller
04-26-2004, 02:00 PM
It's very simple.

Accept the Lord thy God as your personal savior or burn in hell for eternity.

Jcfreak_02
04-26-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by CerealKiller
It's very simple.

Accept the Lord thy God as your personal savior or burn in hell for eternity. I missed the verse when it says accept Christ as your savior. I found verses that say make Christ your Lord and he will become your savior but not the other way around.

FatFat Bastard
04-26-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Jcfreak_02
I missed the verse when it says accept Christ as your savior. I found verses that say make Christ your Lord and he will become your savior but not the other way around.

what does hell look like according to christianity?

matpal
04-26-2004, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
what does hell look like according to christianity?

It is the eternal seperation from God and His love, mercy, and compasssion. So by definition, it IS a place of eternal torment.

I do not know why some people beleive everyone goes to heaven. For those that spend their life rejecting God, wanting nothing to do with him, why on earth would they even want to be in heaven? For them, heaven would be hell.

CerealKiller
04-26-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Jcfreak_02
I missed the verse when it says accept Christ as your savior. I found verses that say make Christ your Lord and he will become your savior but not the other way around.

What's the difference ?

My interpretation is that eternal life comes only when you accept Jesus Christ into your life as your personal Savior and Lord.

The Bible says, All who call out to the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:13).


Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

BIONIC MAN
04-26-2004, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by SLTS


so im a good person. im great to people and i would never hurt anyone. i do many things that would be considered sins, but never harmful to others no matter what it is. and i dont believe in god, i tried, but i could just never bring myself to believe in it because im the type that needs proof to believe something exists.

? [/B] if you sin with your body your harming gods holy temple ,see god wants to live in you . he wants to put his holy spirit inside your body ,you must submit to his will . proof of god well its all about faith that is what pleases god. flipside of this without gods holy spirit in you, your wide open for satanic manipulations.

CITADEL
04-26-2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
flipside of this without gods holy spirit in you, your wide open for satanic manipulations.

No you're not. Morals has nothing to do with religion.

BIONIC MAN
04-26-2004, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by CITADEL
No you're not. Morals has nothing to do with religion. what!!!!! get back in the radars view

CITADEL
04-26-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
what!!!!! get back in the radars view

Ha, what? You said without god you are wide open for satanic manipulations and I said no you arn't because being moral has nothing to do with religion.

BIONIC MAN
04-26-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by CITADEL
Ha, what? You said without god you are wide open for satanic manipulations and I said no you arn't because being moral has nothing to do with religion. without GOD your empty!!! so then the devil can violate you and enter you . if your not a christian and following gods laws with his blood on your sins . then your a person dying in your sins at least according to christianity . some new wave religion or cult might say different but without christianity and gods light in your life there is corruption ,decay , ethical and moral perversions yes some might be worse than others or some might claim god is in them but there father is the devil . there is priests,preachers,deacons,teachers,politicians, homemakers,nursery volunteers, blue collar -white collar workers and others serving satan . and there is prisoners not guilty in jail that have the holy spirit in them few im sure. your station in life does not assure me your holy or not.

CITADEL
04-26-2004, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
without GOD your empty!!! so then the devil can violate you and enter you . if your not a christian and following gods laws with his blood on your sins . then your a person dying in your sins at least according to christianity . some new wave religion or cult might say different but without christianity and gods light in your life there is corruption ,decay , ethical and moral perversions yes some might be worse than others or some might claim god is in them but there father is the devil . there is priests,preachers,deacons,teachers,politicians, homemakers,nursery volunteers, blue collar -white collar workers and others serving satan . and there is prisoners not guilty in jail that have the holy spirit in them few im sure. your station in life does not assure me your holy or not.

No, without god you might be empty, without god I am the same person I was when I had him, except I feel I have progressed past a stage in my life.

bts327
04-26-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by matpal
For those that spend their life rejecting God, wanting nothing to do with him, why on earth would they even want to be in heaven? For them, heaven would be hell.

BIONIC MAN
04-26-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by CITADEL
No, without god you might be empty, without god I am the same person I was when I had him, except I feel I have progressed past a stage in my life. If truly you ever had god and the holy spirit you would not say this. some people might think they have found god when they only went through the paces. you probably went through the ceremony without believing with faith , he enters a repentitive heart open to his power. if you ever felt gods power you would be upset if you ever left him. I love the song sometimes god calms the storm sometimes he calms me.

bts327
04-26-2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
"None can come to the father except by me."

Not implying that you are BigKaz, but should people really be taking such comments in the literal sense?

Couldnt we translate as, "In order to know truth or peace one must live in the manner which I do".

I suppose if you were to live in this manner then you would be accepting of Jesus, even if you didnt accept the image of Jesus you had propagated in your mind. I dont see Jesus, the image, as something to be accepted, but the lifestyle which Jesus lived and preached. So you dont accept the figure because this would be a form of idol worship which I believe the bible prohibits, what you accept is a way of life.

If this is true then wouldnt it make sence that a man completely undoctrinated through religion or dogma could be accepting of Jesus without ever even so much as hearing rumor of his existence, by living a similar lifestyle? Not one brought about by teachings, but one brought about by observance which leads to wisdom?

Bionik
04-26-2004, 08:58 PM
SLTS, don't worry about it. If you believe/disbelieve in any religion, there will always be relgions that damn you. Just forget about it.

bts327
04-26-2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
without christianity and gods light in your life there is corruption ,decay , ethical and moral perversions yes some might be worse than others or some might claim god is in them but there father is the devil .

I see all of these things in every human of the earth. If you were without these things then you would be Jesus. Christianity will not nor can it bring an end to these things in the human being, because in every "teaching" or "way" there will always be another teaching or way to be taken. This will lead to confusion and conflict because one part of you will wish to go one way and another part of you will wish to go another. In each way there will be some form of desire to be supressed, through judgement of what we deam acceptable based on our teachings. Supression is the opposite of godly existence.

bigunit66
04-27-2004, 12:30 AM
All you people are doing is using religion as a crutch to get through life. You can't accept the chaotic nature of the world so you use your gods as a way to paint a false picture of the world. You use your gods as a way to try and put order in the world, when there is not order. You are all a bunch of idealists afraid to think on your own, not only have you veiled the real but also the apparent.

JC-orginalbdass
04-27-2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by bigunit66
All you people are doing is using religion as a crutch to get through life. You can't accept the chaotic nature of the world so you use your gods as a way to paint a false picture of the world. You use your gods as a way to try and put order in the world, when there is not order. You are all a bunch of idealists afraid to think on your own, not only have you veiled the real but also the apparent.

I respectfully disagree with the notion that people use religion as a crutch. I would say that non-beleivers are the ones using the crutch. Not accepting God allows you to commit any sin that you want and feel no guilt. It's quite liberating. Aldous Huxley has a great quote about this, that I don't have here at work, but I'll post it when I get home.

basement iron
04-27-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Bionik
SLTS, don't worry about it. If you believe/disbelieve in any religion, there will always be relgions that damn you. Just forget about it.

Bump to the 10th power.

Respect yourself.

Respect your fellow man.

Be yourself.

Enjoy life.

JC-orginalbdass
04-27-2004, 09:17 AM
Here's the quote:

For myself, the philosophy of meaningless was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political." -- Aldous Huxley in Ends and Means, 1937

jake24
04-27-2004, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
what does hell look like according to christianity? it is a lake of fire where there is torment,wailing and knashing of teeth and seperation from god it is a place of torment for eternity!!!

Quantum_Man
04-27-2004, 01:21 PM
That's Gnashing, not Knashing. ;)

BIONIC MAN
04-27-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by bts327
I see all of these things in every human of the earth. If you were without these things then you would be Jesus. Christianity will not nor can it bring an end to these things in the human being, because in every "teaching" or "way" there will always be another teaching or way to be taken. This will lead to confusion and conflict because one part of you will wish to go one way and another part of you will wish to go another. In each way there will be some form of desire to be supressed, through judgement of what we deam acceptable based on our teachings. Supression is the opposite of godly existence. well jesus was tempted just as we are he had all the emotions and feelings we have , he just overcame them. christianity is about becoming dead to the lust of the sinful life. yes sometimes i think about sinning then i might sin but god and the holy spirit corrects me becuase they are with me. without them your an empty soul and the devil can use you for his purposes which is the destruction of humankind.

CITADEL
04-27-2004, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by JC-orginalbdass
I would say that non-beleivers are the ones using the crutch. Not accepting God allows you to commit any sin that you want and feel no guilt.

You make it sound like people who don't believe in god arn't even human, and they don't feel the same human emotions as believers, such as guilt. Shows how little you know. As for using a crutch, anyone who thinks non-believers go through life on a crutch is a fool. Christians get forgiven anytime they sincerely ask for it, and they ask for god to help them along. Anytime they mess up they know it'll be ok in the end because all they have to do is say they are sorry and mean it. They also can't face the reality that after this life, our time is through and we have to make room for the next generations. If that isn't a crutch I don't know what is.

Cheyenne Press
04-28-2004, 12:41 AM
You speak of Christianity as a crutch while all the while ignoring the immense responsibility of taking upon a relationship with God. Here is man, before a God that he cannot possibly love as deeply, cannot fully comprehend, and cannot possibly ever live up to. And yet I am still loved and have been given a life that is as rich as I may make it.

A crutch? When I contemplate the image of Christ on the cross, when I realize that he came to reunite history with the Father, when I look am reminded of those who fell before me in unwaivering faith, and then I contemplate the problems I have in life and how minor and insignificant they are before the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, do you think that is a crutch? How?

How is it that I can sit before this man--this God--one day and look him in the eyes, if such exist, and even hope to be worthy?

How can I even dream of Christ looking me in the eye and saying, "Well done good and faithful servant?" Dream of Christ washing my feet as the discples? That is something I know I do not deserve, but it is a love I must struggle to comprehend.

And yet in Christ, there is reunification. Doubt and temptation no more, and yet at the moment, only the realization of how deeply these emotions can corrupt my entire being.

Faith is not a crutch. Faith is an unceasing pilgirmmage that attaches personal demands that we will never meet. It is a constant reminder of our inadequacies, a demand to meet those inadequacies, and a demand that we must attempt to love as we have been loved.

You say I may ask forgiveness for my sins. Perhaps. Yet every time I do such, I am reminded of how my love has faltered, how my faith is still weak, and of how much greater a person I could be. That is as much a kick in the seat of the pants as it is a crutch.

bigunit66
04-29-2004, 01:40 AM
Your faith in the ideal world is laughable. And why would anyone need to unite history when we are constantly living history. All of our ideas and beliefs are thousands of years old. We are too afraid to think freely to discover new ideas because Christianity has told us the way it believes things should be. But why cant things change. Why must we follow old dogmas. Why cant we change. Change is the nature of the world and of man. However we are too afraid of change. We lack the courage to step into the unknown. So the result is falling back on religion and history and never exploring new ideas. That is how and why religion is a crutch. It keeps the faithful blind to reality while positing an ideal that no one can live up to while at the same time catering to mans inate wish for apathy. And who is the primary culprit. The state. The state wants people to follow their idealistic religions in order to further impose the states on wills on people. Remember, religion is a tool of the state, not of the individual.

blaker00
04-29-2004, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by bigunit66
Your faith in the ideal world is laughable. And why would anyone need to unite history when we are constantly living history. All of our ideas and beliefs are thousands of years old. We are too afraid to think freely to discover new ideas because Christianity has told us the way it believes things should be. But why cant things change. Why must we follow old dogmas. Why cant we change. Change is the nature of the world and of man. However we are too afraid of change. We lack the courage to step into the unknown. So the result is falling back on religion and history and never exploring new ideas. That is how and why religion is a crutch. It keeps the faithful blind to reality while positing an ideal that no one can live up to while at the same time catering to mans inate wish for apathy. And who is the primary culprit. The state. The state wants people to follow their idealistic religions in order to further impose the states on wills on people. Remember, religion is a tool of the state, not of the individual.

I couldn't say it better myself.