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JayDawg
04-25-2004, 01:35 PM
I have been on the Atkins diet about 2 months now with good success. I lost 22lbs in 2 months. I did lose some muscle I acknowledge that but all in all it was worth it. Now I am trying to get off of the diet to build some more muscle and get on a more realistic diet plan. I am wondering i always hear of people putting all the weight back on after going off atkins. I dont want this to happen. The carbs I am going to eat initially are Oatmeal, Browns rice, Broccoli and green beans. Will these carbs along with my weekly workout and cardio help keep me from gaining the weight back? Thanks for your help

marcFE
04-25-2004, 01:50 PM
Ive never transferred off atkins, and congradulations on the weight loss, however, I beleive the biggest issue when people come off atkins after a long period of time is:

a. they go back to their old eating habits and gain all the weight back because unless you have 200 lbs of muscle you arent burning off your 6000 calories in fast food a day

b. they did the diet plan wrong and lost almost all their muscle and in the end crippled their metabolism

Overall, if you only lost 22 lbs I think you did the plan very properly, you probaly lost 5 lbs from water and then 2 lbs a week after that fat wise so ide say you probaly lost 2 or 3 lbs of muscle.

Overall, as long as you are in a calorie deficit you cant gain weight or vice versa.

If you intend to lift alot just make sure you get good carbs for energy and get a good PWO drink.

Cardio is always good, however, if your trying to put alot of muscle on cardio can be detminental due to cardio goal = putting you in a greater deficit and you need a surplus to put on muscle, so if your goals to lose weight I advise focusing alot on cardio and if your goals to gain muscle focus on weights.

Weights is the greatest key to a diet though since more muscle = more calories burned = more weight loss, so do weights 2 - 3 times a week no matter what then add cardio in if you want to burn a bit of fat that day or so on :)

THX 138
04-25-2004, 01:58 PM
I did hardcore atkins about 4-5 years ago. Lost 25+ lbs, gained it all back. Watching calories now, and keeping your protien up is key.

speda1
04-25-2004, 02:35 PM
I think your plan is good. Add the carbs back in slowly and lower the fat intake to establish some insulin sensitivity.

If you keep the fat intake high and add carbs you are asking for trouble.

johnnyironboard
04-25-2004, 04:41 PM
I've been on a CKD for years and can't contemplate ever changing.

jenn737
04-25-2004, 04:56 PM
I was on Atkins for 11 months and have been transitioning to Burn The Fat, Feed the Muscle for the last month. I lost 70 lbs on atkins and have lost an additional 8+ lbs with BFFM. Basically I was eating 60% fat, 35% protein and 5% carbs. I slowly lowered my fats and added healthy carbs so my current ratios are around 40-50%P and 25-30% F and C. It is lower carb and higher fat than recommended by BFFM, but it is working for me. And I also count calories with this plan.

I still avoid sugar and white flour products for the most part (I do have flour tortillas).

user34566548717114
04-25-2004, 06:03 PM
atkins is a terrible diet


fat cannot produce ATP fast enough to fuel muscle during periods of high activity (aka lifting) sooooo to give the body the ATP it needs ammino acids must be used as well


fatty acids can't be fed into glycolisis :p
carbs are NOT the enemy esp if your active or you weight train

sonicasian
04-25-2004, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by dvv
atkins is a terrible diet


fat cannot produce ATP fast enough to fuel muscle during periods of high activity (aka lifting) sooooo to give the body the ATP it needs ammino acids must be used as well


fatty acids can't be fed into glycolisis :p
carbs are NOT the enemy esp if your active or you weight train


atp is created from creatine monohydrate being broken down into creatine phosphate and then adp

you are talking about glycogen which produced in the liver when carbohydrates or amino acids are broken down.

user34566548717114
04-25-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by sonicasian
atp is created from creatine monohydrate being broken down into creatine phosphate and then adp

you are talking about glycogen which produced in the liver when carbohydrates or amino acids are broken down.

thats a negative ghost rider

i am talking about "Glycolysis" which is a process or ATP creation done from the input of a glucose molecule....this occurs in the cytoplasma of a cell thus has a rapid rate of occurance which means a quick supply of ATP

the finish product pryuvate can be then converted to Acetyl COA which can then be throw into kreb cycle which occurs in the mitochandrai (spelling i'm lazy) of the cell, this is rate limiting due to it only being able to occur at a set rate the first product if produced too quickly (citrate) will defuse outta the mitochandria back into the cytoplasma and block the process of glycolysis from occuring




nooooowwww only glucose can under go glycolysis and so can ammino acids but they are fed into the process much later as can glceride molecules.....fatty acids (where about 99% of the energy is held on a fat molecule) cannot and has to be coverted and sent directly into kreb.......

i could go on and on but what it means is your body cannot produce ATP very fast from pure fat bottom line, ammino acids will be used to fill this void which means KISS YOUR MUSCLE MASS GOOD BYE, remember why they say NOT to do intense exercise beyond 45 minutes....well this is the reasoning behind it


and you keto and atkins lovers may go, ooooh but your muscle glycogen is always replenshed regardless, WRONG BUCKO i don't feel like having to drop the bio chem 2 skillz but just realize this.....no high preformance athlete is on a keto or atkins diet for a reason :p



atkins = garbage
carbs = ultra important the more active you are the more you should be eating unless you wanna slow your metabolism to laughable speeds and lose muscle mass

keto is much better then hardcore atkins but still, there are MUCH better choices out there

sonicasian
04-25-2004, 07:00 PM
yea i know that. all athletes are either on high or moderate carb diets. but for cutting it is better to reduce carbs. not into keto
but just enough to get a hormonal edge

user34566548717114
04-25-2004, 07:51 PM
depends on the person what really matters in the end is ultimatly calories in vs calories out with a few guidelines


but for most cutting carbs is an easy way to drop calories while keeping protein high

but the more active u are the more carbs u need

shazz
04-26-2004, 11:15 AM
I agree with dvv on this one. Glucose is the most efficient respiratory substrate, it must be acknowledged that the overall difference in ATP between the breakdown of glucose and breakdown of Fatty Acids (which are fed in to the Krebs cycle as acetyl as normal) is:

Glucose = 2ATP + 2NAD + 2NAD + 2ATP + 6NAD + 2FAD = 38 theoretical, 32 actual

Fatty acids = 2ATP + 6NAD + 2FAD = 24 theoretical, 20 actual

Although this is a VERY simplified summary, carbs are a far better energy source than fatty acids. The difference between theoretical and actual yields is due to numerous mechanisms unaccounted for through glycolysis, link reaction , krebs cycle and oxidative phosphorylation.
For example the facilitated diffusion of ADP and inorganic Phosphate through the electron transport chain and the turning of the ATP synthase enzyme in the mitocnodrion's stalked particles, etc

ATP is not manufactured only through the reaction by which phosphocreatine becomes phosphate and creatine. PCr is actually only a short term energy store lasting about 10 seconds upon initiation of strenuous exercise e.g. sprinting.

(Pi is inorganic phosphate usually in the form of phosphoric acid)
Atp is made by:

ADP + Pi -----(ATP synthase enzyme)----> ATP

And energy is achieved by the removal of a phosphate group, e.g.:

ATP + H20 ---> ADP + Pi + 30.5kJ
ADP + H20 ---> AMP + Pi + 30.5kJ
AMP will only yield +14.2kJ (or round about) so is not really ever hydrolysed.

user34566548717114
04-26-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by shazz
I agree with dvv on this one. Glucose is the most efficient respiratory substrate, it must be acknowledged that the overall difference in ATP between the breakdown of glucose and breakdown of Fatty Acids (which are fed in to the Krebs cycle as acetyl as normal) is:

Glucose = 2ATP + 2NAD + 2NAD + 2ATP + 6NAD + 2FAD = 38 theoretical, 32 actual

Fatty acids = 2ATP + 6NAD + 2FAD = 24 theoretical, 20 actual

Although this is a VERY simplified summary, carbs are a far better energy source than fatty acids. The difference between theoretical and actual yields is due to numerous mechanisms unaccounted for through glycolysis, link reaction , krebs cycle and oxidative phosphorylation.
For example the facilitated diffusion of ADP and inorganic Phosphate through the electron transport chain and the turning of the ATP synthase enzyme in the mitocnodrion's stalked particles, etc

ATP is not manufactured only through the reaction by which phosphocreatine becomes phosphate and creatine. PCr is actually only a short term energy store lasting about 10 seconds upon initiation of strenuous exercise e.g. sprinting.

(Pi is inorganic phosphate usually in the form of phosphoric acid)
Atp is made by:

ADP + Pi -----(ATP synthase enzyme)----> ATP

And energy is achieved by the removal of a phosphate group, e.g.:

ATP + H20 ---> ADP + Pi + 30.5kJ
ADP + H20 ---> AMP + Pi + 30.5kJ
AMP will only yield +14.2kJ (or round about) so is not really ever hydrolysed.

its not even just that

kreb is what limits the overall rate thats the most important thing
atp and NADP can go straight to chemiosmosis from glycolsis which occurs in cytoplasma at a virtually unlimted rate compared to kreb

so you can get ATP much FASTER its the rate thats important, otherwise u could just burn twice as much fat to = carbs but thats the key thing you can't cuz kreb doesn't have such a fast rate


but good points as well

shazz
04-26-2004, 02:45 PM
Krebs is where the bulk of the hydrogen's are produced due to the citrate being dehydrogenated and at times decarboxylated at intervals: Ignore the following reactions if your not bothered its the overall point Im trying to get across :)

citrate --dehydrogenase/decarboxylase enzymes ---> alpha ketoglutarate + H2 +CO2
alpha ketoglutarate ---dehydrogenase/decarboxylase enzymes ---> Succinate + CO2 + H2
Succinate ----dehydrogenase enzymes---> Malanate + H2
Malanate---isomerase enzymes ----> fumarate
fumarate----dehydrogenase enzymes---> oxaloacetate + H2

So you are right Krebs can serve as a limiting factor but the actual bulk of the energy itself is derived from the resulting hydrogens that are subsequently used in the electron transport chain in oxidative phosphorylation.


atp and NADP can go straight to chemiosmosis from glycolsis which occurs in cytoplasma at a virtually unlimted rate compared to kreb

Only two NAD (NADP is nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate which is only found in plants) molecules are reduced in glycolysis to NADH2 and only 2 ATP are achieved by the conversion of glucose to 2 x pyruvate. Although you are right glycolysis is the first step and will occur at all times the energy achieved is minimal despite the rate being higher than either Krebs or the electron transport chain. At most the greatest yield of ATP from glycolysis would be 7ATP (8 theoretical). I personally don't think that would get very far on its own despite being produced faster than the remaining 25ATP from the link/krebs/ETC. But combined with the other 25ATP produced from the complete aerobic respiration of a glucose molecule then it is apparent carbohydrates serve as the superior energy source than fats.

My argument here is that its more so the overall yield of ATP that matters as opposed to the rate at which a fraction of potential ATP from glucose is achieved.
I agree that rate is important, but I feel the deciding factor is overall yield. But to each his own right?
Either way we're looking at aerobic respiration from the most basic of levels - well a quite fundamental level anyway. We've a long ways to go before we can state which is the better substrate when there are obviously many other factors we have excluded.

user34566548717114
04-26-2004, 05:20 PM
rate is important depending on the "intensity" of the exercise

like i said your body could simply turn up the amount of fat burned to correct the inbalance in ATP thus ammino acids would never have to be used.....

if all you are doing is walking bodyfat will be the primary source of fuel, turn that walking into an ultra hard sprint with low glucose levels watch your body up the ammino acids consumed, there is a reason behind this....fats cannot be converted to ATP fast enough to be the sole provider....


your right the ATP supply is smaller then kreb, but it is independent of kreb so that atp is produced ontop of kreb and chemio but not only that it can occur in mutiple areas of the cell (throughout cytoplasma) so 7 x a virtually unlimed amount of area is quite a bit of extra ATP

user34566548717114
04-26-2004, 05:22 PM
rate is important depending on the "intensity" of the exercise

like i said your body could simply turn up the amount of fat burned to correct the inbalance in ATP thus ammino acids would never have to be used.....

if all you are doing is walking bodyfat will be the primary source of fuel, turn that walking into an ultra hard sprint with low glucose levels watch your body up the ammino acids consumed, there is a reason behind this....fats cannot be converted to ATP fast enough to be the sole provider....


your right the ATP supply is smaller then kreb, but it is independent of kreb so that atp is produced ontop of kreb and chemio but not only that it can occur in mutiple areas of the cell (throughout cytoplasma) so 7 x a virtually unlimed amount of area is quite a bit of extra ATP



and as you stated we are agreeing that chemo is the place where the largest amount of ATP is produced with kreb being the limiting agent....take away oxygen (common when doing very intense exercise aka latic acid buildup) and you no longer have the luxery of using the kinitic energy of H+ to drive the production of more ATP-
which means you just lost your biggest supply of ATP now you are left with the crappy ATP production of lactic acid, the slow cycle of kreb, and the speedy glycolsis....you see how it all compounds??? :)

but in the end we are against atkins and thats all that matters :p