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Debaser
04-24-2004, 05:50 PM
What do you guys think? Personally I don't think it's because we're a 'free nation' and that they're attacking our major values that we hold dearly. That is almost as absurd as their claims. I tend to think that that claim is more propoganda by the government, but maybe someone can disprove this in some way.

I also don't think that they're NOT afraid of freedom (who doesn't want to have freedom of choice, speech, etc? Iraq insurgents are merely attacking the US because they hate the US, not because they don't want to be free from an oppressive government).

Anways, feel free to make an opinion of why terrorists (Al Qaeda, etc.) hate the US. If possible, site some reasons (no matter how rediculous they may be) and incidents that have occured over the years to incite such hatred.

Ruthless4Life
04-24-2004, 05:56 PM
I would guess one of the main reasons is for the US support of Israel.

Ak47
04-24-2004, 06:16 PM
If youre talking about terrorist groups like al-queda, its because they think of us (and other western nations) as infadels (sp.). They think we are influencing the rest of the world to lose the values of the Koran (I believe this is what they call there religious scriptures) and they think we are dooming humanity with our "infadel" ways.

Reborn79
04-24-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Ak47
If youre talking about terrorist groups like al-queda, its because they think of us (and other western nations) as infadels (sp.). They think we are influencing the rest of the world to lose the values of the Koran (I believe this is what they call there religious scriptures) and they think we are dooming humanity with our "infadel" ways.

That is part of it. A larger part, however, stems from our involvement in affairs that affect the arab world, such as having troops in Saudi Arabia and the U.S. supporting Israel in the Palestine/Israel conflict.

Ruthless4Life
04-24-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Reborn79
That is part of it. A larger part, however, stems from our involvement in affairs that affect the arab world, such as having troops in Saudi Arabia and the U.S. supporting Israel in the Palestine/Israel conflict.

Yeah, the Islam part seems like more of a "further justification" than a cause.

FatFat Bastard
04-24-2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
I would guess one of the main reasons is for the US support of Israel.
why don't they attack Israel?
but they do attack spain, USA , and coalition troops in Iraq
sort of ironic don't you think?

CerealKiller
04-24-2004, 06:59 PM
Whether justly or unjustly I think the terrorists view the United States government as the worlds biggest bully, the Ultimate Goliath to be slain. The current administration is doing nothing to change that perception.

xman06
04-24-2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by CerealKiller
Whether justly or unjustly I think the terrorists view the United States government as the worlds biggest bully, the Ultimate Goliath to be slain. The current administration is doing nothing to change that perception.

Excellent way of putting it. I agree. But these terrorists are full fledged, suicidal! They are willing to kill innocent women and children as well?

CerealKiller
04-24-2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by xman06
Excellent way of putting it. I agree. But these terrorists are full fledged, suicidal! They are willing to kill innocent women and children as well?

I forgot to mention that terrorists are religious nutbars.

Ruthless4Life
04-24-2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
why don't they attack Israel?
but they do attack spain, USA , and coalition troops in Iraq
sort of ironic don't you think?

Al Queda may focus in other areas, but terrorists do attack Israel.

And by "terrorists," I group terrorists as a whole. It's not just war on Hamas or war on Al Queda. It's war on terrorism. What I mean by that is terrorists as whole do attack Israel, just that they are split into seperate groups with each group focusing one point.

Or, they want to attack countries that supports Israel or the US to weaking Israel because they tried attacking Israel (obviously) and cannot defeat them.

Starsky
04-24-2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Debaser
What do you guys think? Personally I don't think it's because we're a 'free nation' and that they're attacking our major values that we hold dearly. That is almost as absurd as their claims. I tend to think that that claim is more propoganda by the government, but maybe someone can disprove this in some way.

I also don't think that they're NOT afraid of freedom (who doesn't want to have freedom of choice, speech, etc? Iraq insurgents are merely attacking the US because they hate the US, not because they don't want to be free from an oppressive government).

Anways, feel free to make an opinion of why terrorists (Al Qaeda, etc.) hate the US. If possible, site some reasons (no matter how rediculous they may be) and incidents that have occured over the years to incite such hatred.


They dont hate freedom, they hate the effect freedom would have on thier personal power and/or version of Islam. If their version of Islam advocates using women as property, killing Jews/Christians and people who disagree, then their "right" to subjugate is infringed by freedom.


They also believe freedom will turn the Arab world into a place of idolatry, with people free to practice any religion, listen to any music, or dress how they like. The problem is, these things should be personal decisions, not state decisions. This makes them afraid, and it also endangers their power.

Heavily Armed
04-24-2004, 08:36 PM
Terrorists see the US as meddling in their affairs. Their enemies for thousands of years are the jews. We support Isreal. The friend of their enemy is their enemy. They are of the Islamic faith. We, as a nation, are not. Therefore we are infidels, infidels meddling in their affairs, helping their enemies. Terrorists use their faith as motivation and justification to attack us. It is indeed jihad, a holy war, to them. I am not lumping all Muslims into this category. I am talking about those who violently oppose and attack their perceived enemies, mainly Isreal, the US and those aligned with us.

bts327
04-24-2004, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
I would guess one of the main reasons is for the US support of Israel.


Originally posted by Reborn79
That is part of it. A larger part, however, stems from our involvement in affairs that affect the arab world, such as having troops in Saudi Arabia and the U.S. supporting Israel in the Palestine/Israel conflict.

Jcfreak_02
04-24-2004, 09:39 PM
I will side with Micheal Savage on this issue. It is because of what America represents to them. Watch the TV, movies, the things that represent America and wonder if that is what we really want. I do think they are against the freedoms we enjoy, but I think what they are willing to fight to the death is what many have chosen to do with their freedoms.

15u
04-24-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Debaser
Anways, feel free to make an opinion of why terrorists (Al Qaeda, etc.) hate the US.

come on now, they aren't terrorists, they are freedom fighters :rolleyes:

:D


i think the reason terrorists hate us so much is because we do not like the way they run their countries (saddam, taliban, etc.). i also think it might be a little jealousy.

TranceNRG
04-25-2004, 01:26 AM
double standard
hyprocracy

all over the US's foreign policy

hmmm...
then close-minded, thick headed conserv/repulican with their motto "You're with with us or against us"

as long as they fully blind Israel... those "terrorist" will ALWAYS be against them.


are the main two I can think of

TranceNRG
04-25-2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Ak47
If youre talking about terrorist groups like al-queda, its because they think of us (and other western nations) as infadels (sp.). They think we are influencing the rest of the world to lose the values of the Koran (I believe this is what they call there religious scriptures) and they think we are dooming humanity with our "infadel" ways.


ok...
let's think of it this way

Quran came 1400 years ago.

Crusaders "christians" attacked muslims
the wars ended.

the world was relatively calm (in regard to muslims)

then after creation of Israel and blind american support for it, the "terrorist" arose

so here's my question. Why were there centuries of no terrorist activities.
If the main reason is "western" world is against Quran and everyone else is an infidel?

TranceNRG
04-25-2004, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Reborn79
That is part of it. A larger part, however, stems from our involvement in affairs that affect the arab world, such as having troops in Saudi Arabia and the U.S. supporting Israel in the Palestine/Israel conflict.


ya... double standard

having close allies with Saudis who are the most corrupt regime. who do support "terrorists", who don't accept women's right and etc.

BUT

attacking specific Arab nations for the exact reasons above

why?
OIL

TranceNRG
04-25-2004, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
why don't they attack Israel?
but they do attack spain, USA , and coalition troops in Iraq
sort of ironic don't you think?


w/o US's help Israel wouldn't be as powerful.

plus, certain groups only target Israel and not US.

so they balance each other.

TranceNRG
04-25-2004, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by xman06
Excellent way of putting it. I agree. But these terrorists are full fledged, suicidal! They are willing to kill innocent women and children as well?


the way they see it is:

due to US's direct action or indirect influence thousands of their women and children die everyday.

Jus' liek Bush uses al-qaede terrorist for everything, they blame US for everything.

irpker
04-25-2004, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
ok...
let's think of it this way

Quran came 1400 years ago.

Crusaders "christians" attacked muslims
the wars ended.

the world was relatively calm (in regard to muslims)

then after creation of Israel and blind american support for it, the "terrorist" arose

so here's my question. Why were there centuries of no terrorist activities.
If the main reason is "western" world is against Quran and everyone else is an infidel?

Yes, I guess that whole ottoman Empire period was so calm, especially when Sulleiman was trying to conquer the world (both sovreign Christian AND Muslim states).

One valid reason I can see being pissed off toward France, England and America, the three central players of the west, post-ww2, was the complete dominance of middle eastern oil by setting up puppet government and letting these "leaders" allow multi-national corporations process the oil

However, that is not true anymore when all of these royal families decided to nationalize the oil fields, and form OPEC. Then again, OPEC could easily fukk with America and her citizens by aritificially raising the prices of oil through collusion. No president is going to appreciate a high unemployment and high inflation rate.

milo34
04-25-2004, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Reborn79
That is part of it. A larger part, however, stems from our involvement in affairs that affect the arab world, such as having troops in Saudi Arabia and the U.S. supporting Israel in the Palestine/Israel conflict.

U.S meddling in Arab affairs and support for Israel as well the these reasons posted by Reborn79 sound pretty reasonable to me.
it is NOT b/c the Koran tells them to hate infidels or any other of that propaganda fed to us says it is- this may be used to recruit extremists though (i.e. in attempt to justify their actions)

TranceNRG
04-25-2004, 02:53 PM
other side of the coin

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11590

READ IT :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In December 1998, I met a waiter in the quiet Egyptian port of Suez. As I sipped tea in his cafe, he pulled up a chair to chat, as Egyptians often do to welcome strangers. Not long into our amiable repartee, he looked me in the eye.


"Now I want to ask you a blunt question," he said. "Why do you Americans hate us?" I raised my eyebrows, so he explained what he meant and, in doing so, provided some insights into why others hate us.


Numerous United Nations resolutions clearly define Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem as illegal. Yet Israel receives 40 percent of all US foreign aid, more than $3.5 billion annually in recent years, roughly $500 per Israeli citizen. (The average Egyptian will earn $656 this year.)


Israel uses all of this aid to build new settlements on Palestinian land and to buy US-made warplanes and helicopter gunships. "Why do Americans support Israel when Israel represses Arabs?" the waiter asked.


He went on: Evidence clearly shows that the US-led economic sanctions on Iraq punish Iraqi civilians while hardly touching Saddam Hussein's regime. A UNICEF study in 1999 backed him up, saying that 500,000 children under five would be alive today if sanctions did not exist. Surely Iraqi children are not enemies of international peace and security, the waiter expostulated, even if their ruler is a brutal dictator.


The United States presses for continued sanctions because Hussein is flouting United Nations resolutions, but stands by Israel when it has flouted UN Resolution 242 (which urges Israel to withdraw from land occupied in the 1967 War) for over 30 years. Arabs and Muslims suffer from these and other US policies.


The only logic this young Egyptian could see was that America was pursuing a worldwide war against Islam, in which the victims were overwhelmingly Muslim. America is a democracy, he concluded, so Americans must hate Muslims to endorse this war.


I groaned inwardly. Here, I thought, was a person as woefully misinformed about America as most Americans are about the Middle East. Painstakingly, in my rusty Arabic, I explained that although the United States is a democracy, we Americans do not choose our government's allies, nor do we select its adversaries. We do not vote on the annual foreign aid budget. There are no referenda on the ballot asking whether the United States should send abundant aid to Israel, or whether the United States should pressure the UN Security Council into maintaining sanctions against Iraq, or whether the Fifth Fleet should prowl the Persian Gulf to protect our oil supply.


Americans do have the ability to vote out of office politicians who embrace various foreign policies, but Americans rarely have accurate information about the effect of those policies, in the Middle East or elsewhere. If they knew, I argued, they would speak up in opposition, because Americans have a fundamental sense of fairness. I concurred that it was imperative to debunk Hollywood stereotypes of Arabs and Muslims as wild-eyed, Koran-waving fanatics. These are pernicious ideas that stand in the way of fair judgment.


Our conversation lasted for hours. When we reached a pause, the waiter invited me to dinner at his house. There I met his brother, a devout Muslim. He too asked me why America hates Arabs and Muslims. I spent two more hours talking with him. When I left, he told me warmly how happy he was "to connect with an American on a human level." He and I shook hands like old friends, as we agreed that both Americans and Arab Muslims should strive to puncture the myth that "we" are somehow essentially different from "them."


A civilized human society cannot afford to think in those tribal terms. That type of thinking leads to despair, and thence to wholly unjustifiable disasters such as Americans have just experienced. Most Americans who have lived or traveled in the Arab world can relate similar experiences: Arabs are entirely capable of differentiating between a people and the actions of its government, or the values of a people and the political agenda of a narrow minority of them. What confuses, and, yes, angers them is that we do not seem to return the favor.


Scant days after I returned from Suez to Cairo, President Clinton ordered US fighter-bombers to attack Iraq, ostensibly because Hussein had expelled UN weapons inspectors from his country. The "surgical strikes" of Operation Desert Fox, like previous and subsequent campaigns, maimed and killed defenseless Iraqi civilians. Meanwhile, virtually every news outlet in Egypt ran pictures of grinning US seamen painting "Happy Ramadan" on the missiles destined for Baghdad. Those pictures mocked the suffering of Muslims, just as they mocked my attempts at playing cultural ambassador.


To the Arab and Muslim world, Americans project an image of utter indifference to the Iraqi civilian casualties of sanctions and bombing – people who were also "moms and dads, friends and neighbors," as President Bush said of the Americans we mourn today. During Desert Fox, there was no outrage at the callous black humor of the missile-painters, or the purposeful insult to Islam's holy month. Despite the obvious failure of bombing to achieve our stated objective (ridding Iraq of Hussein), and the harm done to innocents in the process, no mass anti-war movement spilled into our streets to force a change in US policy. Hardly anyone has suggested since that US officials should be held accountable for willful acts of terror, though terror is surely what Iraqis must feel when bombs rain from the sky.


Only days after Desert Fox, the Iraq story faded from the front pages entirely, and the nation returned to its obsession with the Monica Lewinsky scandal. What could that waiter in Suez have been thinking of my careful distinctions then?


He does not have "links" to Osama bin Laden. He is not a prospective suicide bomber, nor would he defend their indefensible actions. Today I have no doubt that he feels intense sympathy for "us."


After watching unjust US policies continue for years without apology, after hearing of incidents of racist anti-Arab backlash following the execrable crimes of Sept. 11, perhaps he also senses great tragedy in that the hijackers spoke to Americans in a language the US government speaks all too well abroad.


By: Chris Toensing

Chris Toensing is the editor of Middle East Report, published by the Middle East Research and Information Project, a Washington, DC-based think tank.

benefit
04-25-2004, 04:31 PM
U.S. military and financial support of Israel.
Extremist religious views.

Tim
04-25-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
I would guess one of the main reasons is for the US support of Israel. Major bump. If the US would not be pro-Israel (which is essentially anti-Arab), 9/11 would never have happened. I think that the US should be isolationist, and not get involved in other country's affairs or conflicts between peoples outside its borders.

goblin6
04-25-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Tim
Major bump. If the US would not be pro-Israel (which is essentially anti-Arab), 9/11 would never have happened. I think that the US should be isolationist, and not get involved in other country's affairs or conflicts between peoples outside its borders.
Can't happen, it would cause more problems that would have to be dealt with later.

After WW2, the US became the big boy on the block, the forerunner in the struggle agians the USSR. Now they are gone and the US is still looked to for leadership by the world.

They hate us because we support Israel, they hate us for having troops in the Holy Land. They hate us for the percieved corruption of thier ideas values and morals. They hate the US for whomping on saddam, for being instumental in the Egypt-Israel peace treaty, and lots of other reasons.

AnotherScorpion
04-25-2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
why don't they attack Israel?
but they do attack spain, USA , and coalition troops in Iraq
sort of ironic don't you think?


Now that's really intelligent statement Fatty! I guess you should stop watching MTV news!

Bionik
04-25-2004, 06:33 PM
With terrorism, there is no "why."

blaker00
04-25-2004, 06:51 PM
They hate us for a couple reasons.

1) We played both sides of Iraq and Iran war. We did this because we didn't want any of them to win and hopefully they would just kill themselves. Then when Iraq went bankrupt from this disaster, they were going to sell there oil to bring back the economy. Well, Kuwait flooded the market with oil leaving there economy in shambles so they attacked it with our know abouts and then we all of a sudden after they attacked it we went to war with them.

2) We put puppet governments up in the middle east. Saddam is only in power because the cia funded the money and power to put him as our puppet government.

3) The first war with iraq the us told a whole bunch of militia men that we were going to topple saddam. Instead we won the war kept saddam in power and then saddam killed all of those people.

4) We funded al qaeda and put Bin Laden in charge of combating
the russians in the Cold War. They won then we just stoped funding them and called them terrorist. Bin laden doesn't want us to Occupy any land or any involvement in the middle east. Well we deal with Israel, Egypt and the Saudi's so fat chance that that is going to happen.

5) We use or dominance around the world unfairly. They are tired of their regemes turning into a peice of sh*t because one day we like them the other day we don't.

there's more but that's just a few

Debaser
04-25-2004, 10:58 PM
Does anyone think that our harsh trading restrictions (chlorine, lead, etc.) on Iraq (restrictions that made the country have some of the highest infant mortality rates in the world) created much of the sentiment towards the US?

Does anyone think that it's legitimate of the US to impose those restrictions? Do many Middle Easterners and Iraqis have a cause for being mad at the US (not using terrorism, just having disdain towards the US)?

goblin6
04-25-2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Debaser
Does anyone think that our harsh trading restrictions (chlorine, lead, etc.) on Iraq (restrictions that made the country have some of the highest infant mortality rates in the world) created much of the sentiment towards the US?

Does anyone think that it's legitimate of the US to impose those restrictions? Do many Middle Easterners and Iraqis have a cause for being mad at the US (not using terrorism, just having disdain towards the US)? The sanctions were imposed by the UN or at least had UN approval.

I do not undertand the whole idea of blaming the US for Saddam's refusal to abide by the terms of the cease fire and get the sanctions lifted. SADDAM caused the increased poverty, and infant mortality rates of his people.

Debaser
04-25-2004, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by goblin6
The sanctions were imposed by the UN or at least had UN approval.

I do not undertand the whole idea of blaming the US for Saddam's refusal to abide by the terms of the cease fire and get the sanctions lifted. SADDAM caused the increased poverty, and infant mortality rates of his people.

Yes, they were imposed by the UN, but only because of the US wanted them there (at least from what I know, unless someone can disprove me on this fact).

That's the whole point, Saddam caused them, therefor why should the general populace be the victims? Saddam payed for nothing in that war, he just built more mansions. It seems unrealistic to punish Saddam, doesn't it?

goblin6
04-25-2004, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Debaser
Yes, they were imposed by the UN, but only because of the US wanted them there (at least from what I know, unless someone can disprove me on this fact).

That's the whole point, Saddam caused them, therefor why should the general populace be the victims? Saddam payed for nothing in that war, he just built more mansions. It seems unrealistic to punish Saddam, doesn't it?



After the first Gulf war, there was no cnsensus on wha texactly to do to force Saddam to comply, the sanctions were the compromise solution devised by the UN and the US. In order to punish Saddam you would hav eto do whatj ust happened, take him out of power, that was not on the table during that time.
Sanctions are a major part of Un pressure to get countries to comply with whatever, in some cases they are very effective, in others, Iraq, they were not.
Saddam was the guilty party but there was no other way to punish him or to try to get him to comply, short of whomping on him, which we finally did 12 years later.