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View Full Version : Are natural disasters proof god doesnt exist (belief in christian god)



The Physics Guy
04-21-2004, 04:12 PM
Christians often say that the reason people can do bad things to other people is because of free will; such as microwaving your baby , smashing baby with concrete block, smashing retarded sister with dumbbell (stories that happened just this week), putting kid in oven....

What about earthquakes /tornado/ flood killing people......

Whose "free will" was it to cause the natural disasters to kill innocent people. And saying it was their free will to live there will not suffice.

If god was perfect / existed why would he create a world that constantly "****s up"

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 04:16 PM
I would not go so far as to say it is proof that god doesn't exist but it is evidence against the christian god. The bigger theological problem they have, imo, is free will and divine intervention.

Jimineye
04-21-2004, 04:26 PM
Technically tornadoes, earthquakes, fires, etc can not do "bad" things because it is an inanimate object. So it cannot do good nor bad things.

God created nature, but God doesn't set out going "Gee, I'm going to send a Tornado down to Earth and see how many people's lives I can ruin with it." Tornado's are an act of nature not an act of God.

.aeterna
04-21-2004, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
I would not go so far as to say it is proof that god doesn't exist but it is evidence against the christian god. The bigger theological problem they have, imo, is free will and divine intervention.

I wouldnt say it's evidence against the "Christian God"...there's absolutely no evidence to back that up.


Originally posted by JiminyeTechnically tornadoes, earthquakes, fires, etc can not do "bad" things because it is an inanimate object. So it cannot do good nor bad things.

God created nature, but God doesn't set out going "Gee, I'm going to send a Tornado down to Earth and see how many people's lives I can ruin with it." Tornado's are an act of nature not an act of God.

Jim, i wouldnt go so far to say that God did not affect nature in any way...because remember, even in the Old Testement, he controlled alot of things in nature. (e.g. the swarms of locusts during the time of the Pharoah, the Red Sea parting..)

The question about natural disasters has been asked a ton of times and i wish i had an answer. As far as i'm concerned however, i wouldnt go and say that things like famine and drought are God's punishments to us.

This is one of those questions that only God knows...it's pretty abstract.

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by .aeterna
I wouldnt say it's evidence against the "Christian God"...there's absolutely no evidence to back that up.


Jim, i wouldnt go so far to say that God did not affect nature in any way...because remember, even in the Old Testement, he controlled alot of things in nature. (e.g. the swarms of locusts during the time of the Pharoah, the Red Sea parting..)

The question about natural disasters has been asked a ton of times and i wish i had an answer. As far as i'm concerned however, i wouldnt go and say that things like famine and drought are God's punishments to us.

This is one of those questions that only God knows...it's pretty abstract.

It is evidence that can be used if you wanted to try and disprove the christian god. Evidence is purely empirical, it doesn't have a slant. It is the hypothesis and theory that draw conclusions from the evidence.

I also find it quite amusing you dismiss what I called evidence because you implied there was no basis for it, while your entire argument against God having a hand in natural disaters can be summed up as "This is one of the things that only God knows."

.aeterna
04-21-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
It is evidence that can be used if you wanted to try and disprove the christian god. Evidence is purely empirical, it doesn't have a slant. It is the hypothesis and theory that draw conclusions from the evidence.

I also find it quite amusing you dismiss what I called evidence because you implied there was no basis for it, while your entire argument against God having a hand in natural disaters can be summed up as "This is one of the things that only God knows."

I'm still not sure on how natural disasters can be used to disprove the christian God. You have yet to make that clear...

I bet you'll agree, even if you arent religious, that all religions are based on faith. Without faith, there would be no religion. Correct? When i said that "this was one of those things that God only knew" i meant it from a Christian standpoint. Christianity is a religion of faith, just like any other, so obviously i cannot prove it.

Then again, can you prove anything that happened thousands of years ago? No. Why? Because you weren't there to see it for yourself. It's all about believing..

Ruthless4Life
04-21-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by The Physics Guy
Christians often say that the reason people can do bad things to other people is because of free will; such as microwaving your baby , smashing baby with concrete block, smashing retarded sister with dumbbell (stories that happened just this week), putting kid in oven....

What about earthquakes /tornado/ flood killing people......

Whose "free will" was it to cause the natural disasters to kill innocent people. And saying it was their free will to live there will not suffice.

If god was perfect / existed why would he create a world that constantly "****s up"

According to Christianity:

1. Who said anybody was innocent? We are all sinned.

2. Because he gave us free will and Adam and Eve ate the fruit.

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by .aeterna
I'm still not sure on how natural disasters can be used to disprove the christian God. You have yet to make that clear...

I bet you'll agree, even if you arent religious, that all religions are based on faith. Without faith, there would be no religion. Correct? When i said that "this was one of those things that God only knew" i meant it from a Christian standpoint. Christianity is a religion of faith, just like any other, so obviously i cannot prove it.

Then again, can you prove anything that happened thousands of years ago? No. Why? Because you weren't there to see it for yourself. It's all about believing..

Why don't you take a look at physics guy's post to see how it would be used to disprove the christian conception of God. Allow me to summarize: Free will involves personal choices, however, nature does not make conscious choices and does not possess free will so then why do horrible events occur that man's free will has no link to?

Now I would say we have to decide what exactly free will is. what is will? It is an intention. An intention requires two things: an agent, to do the intending, and an object, of which is intended. Proper physics are what bind together the vehicles that allow our potential for action -- physical forces do not restrict our free will, they enable it. -- for without them, not only would we would lack the form which allows us to carry out our will, but there wouldn't be any substance for us to act upon.

On those grounds I would say that these forces operating outside of our will, that enable us to have freedom of the will and then I would say that due to the interaction of these forces natural disaters will occur, but it is not necessarily of God's making.

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -Friedrich Nietzsche

I can reasonably assume that the dinosaurs existed due to evidence that exists today. We can assume that Henvy VIII had six various wives due to numerous unbiased primary source accounts declaring this.

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
According to Christianity:

1. Who said anybody was innocent? We are all sinned.

2. Because he gave us free will and Adam and Eve ate the fruit.

Although your likely just to refer to what I posted above I will have to say your second answer is no sufficient as you have to prove it is from man's free will that these events occur or because of it. Your first response also doesn't serve any purpose and is misleading.

Bionik
04-21-2004, 05:40 PM
Why do you people care so much?

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Bionik
Why do you people care so much?

What your religious beliefs are or what you decide for them to be can have a profound impact upon all areas of life. Especially if a certain religion advocates a set of ethics or morals by which you are to lead your life according to. The answers to basictheological questions (such as free will) would also have an immeasureable impact upon the nature of the universe and, as aforementioned, our ethics.

It also makes for good debate. :)

Ruthless4Life
04-21-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Although your likely just to refer to what I posted above I will have to say your second answer is no sufficient as you have to prove it is from man's free will that these events occur or because of it. Your first response also doesn't serve any purpose and is misleading.

Man's free will ate the fruit, therefore, Adam and Eve were banished from Eden. If he did not ate the fruit, we would be in Eden where no disaster occurs to punish us. Therefore, it's man's ignorant use of free will that leads to us living in the world where disasters occur.

About the first response, the person called people "innocent." I was just saying that they're not. Nor am I.

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
Man's free will ate the fruit, therefore, Adam and Eve were banished from Eden. If he did not ate the fruit, we would be in Eden where no disaster occurs to punish us. Therefore, it's man's ignorant use of free will that leads to us living in the world where disasters occur.

About the first response, the person called people "innocent." I was just saying that they're not. Nor am I.

Thank you for further elaborating on your responses.

Would everyman have chosen to eat the fruit? I think it is fair to say those of us alive now did not choose. Why then are punished because of the sins of our original forebears?

Disasters kill newborn children and pregnant women are also killed whom are carrying fetusses do they not qualify as innocent?

Ruthless4Life
04-21-2004, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Thank you for further elaborating on your responses.

Would everyman have chosen to eat the fruit? I think it is fair to say those of us alive now did not choose. Why then are punished because of the sins of our original forebears?

Disasters kill newborn children and pregnant women are also killed whom are carrying fetusses do they not qualify as innocent?

I don't know. I can only assume. Maybe because God wanted Adam and Eve to know the magnitude of the sin, therefore, saying how their sons, and the sons of their sons, and so on, will be consequented to the sins of theirs.

About us being sinners because of them - that's what God realized the Jesus died so we can go to heaven.

It's not my job to judge. That's God's job. :)

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
I don't know. I can only assume. Maybe because God wanted Adam and Eve to know the magnitude of the sin, therefore, saying how their sons, and the sons of their sons, and so on, will be consequented to the sins of theirs.

About us being sinners because of them - that's what God realized the Jesus died so we can go to heaven.

It's not my job to judge. That's God's job. :)

One would think that if he wanted them to know the consequences he would tell them before they committed the sin than afterwards. Of course, they were not aware of child birth either (supposedly). Also would you consider it just if we sent all of a murder's family (who was a grandfather) to jail so that they would know the magnitude of his sin?

It may be God who judges, but do you then recognize that the death of children and fetusses in natural disasters could be considered innocent? And if so doesn't that free them from sin so they then, at least, are innocent although we may not be?

Jimineye
04-21-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Why don't you take a look at physics guy's post to see how it would be used to disprove the christian conception of God. Allow me to summarize: Free will involves personal choices, however, nature does not make conscious choices and does not possess free will so then why do horrible events occur that man's free will has no link to?



Nature can work on it's own completely indepenedent of something controlling it. Hot and Cold air mixing is what causes tornados, I very highly doubt that God takes the time of day to mix hot and cold air together to start the process of a volcano.

Also plates rubbing together is what caueses Earthquakes, to think that God is like "Well I'm bored right now, I think I will push some tectonic plates together to cause an earthquake" is a little far fetched to say the least.

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
Nature can work on it's own completely indepenedent of something controlling it. Hot and Cold air mixing is what causes tornados, I very highly doubt that God takes the time of day to mix hot and cold air together to start the process of a volcano.

Also plates rubbing together is what caueses Earthquakes, to think that God is like "Well I'm bored right now, I think I will push some tectonic plates together to cause an earthquake" is a little far fetched to say the least.

Well there are plently of acts where God intervenes in the Bible.

1) Plagues sent down upon Egyptians
2) Parting of the Red Sea
3) Pillar of Fire guiding hebrews by night
4) serpants being sent to punish the Hebrews for being wicked in the desert
5) trying to have moses killed on the jounrye to pharoah until moses was circumsized by his wife with a stone.
6) walls of jericho tumbling down
etc. (all of those were off the top of my head BTW)

Jimineye
04-21-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Well there are plently of acts where God intervenes in the Bible.

1) Plagues sent down upon Egyptians
2) Parting of the Red Sea
3) Pillar of Fire guiding hebrews by night
4) serpants being sent to punish the Hebrews for being wicked in the desert
5) trying to have moses killed on the jounrye to pharoah until moses was circumsized by his wife with a stone.
6) walls of jericho tumbling down
etc. (all of those were off the top of my head BTW)

Yes, that is true, but that is when God acted on his own to take control of nature. While today he is merely letting nature run it's course.

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
Yes, that is true, but that is when God acted on his own to take control of nature. While today he is merely letting nature run it's course.

And you know this because?

The catholic church recognizes miracles and a certain number (2 I believe) are required for canonization. Also I think think of an example post-resurrection which involves divine intervention. This is from John who states that he was not killed despite numerous attempts on his life because of the holy spirit saving him.

Bionik
04-21-2004, 07:26 PM
I don't see any correlation between ethics/morals/logic/truth and religion, so I guess the relevance will continue to evade me...

dbmyers
04-21-2004, 07:31 PM
god does everything for a reason.


He probaly wants to make us stronger and build character by putting us through bad things.

Wouldn't life suck if everything was perfect? You would have nothing to be happy about and nothing to shoot for in life.

It would really suck if god made our lifes easy, we would be weak, spiritualy, mentaly, and physicaly.

He's got a plan for us all...

It's harsh love

CITADEL
04-21-2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
Yes, that is true, but that is when God acted on his own to take control of nature. While today he is merely letting nature run it's course.

Statements like this piss me off, because you are obviously just making it up.

CITADEL
04-21-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by dbmyers
god does everything for a reason.


He probaly wants to make us stronger and build character by putting us through bad things.

Wouldn't life suck if everything was perfect? You would have nothing to be happy about and nothing to shoot for in life.

It would really suck if god made our lifes easy, we would be weak, spiritualy, mentaly, and physicaly.

He's got a plan for us all...

It's harsh love

No, you might think everyone being happy would suck, but I think it would be great.

BigKazWSM747
04-21-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by dbmyers

Wouldn't life suck if everything was perfect? You would have nothing to be happy about and nothing to shoot for in life.

It would really suck if god made our lifes easy, we would be weak, spiritualy, mentaly, and physicaly.

It's harsh love

Whats the point of going to heaven then? I imagine if there was no difficulty that is what this earth would be like since we would know no other life.

Heavily Armed
04-21-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Well there are plently of acts where God intervenes in the Bible.

1) Plagues sent down upon Egyptians
2) Parting of the Red Sea
3) Pillar of Fire guiding hebrews by night
4) serpants being sent to punish the Hebrews for being wicked in the desert
5) trying to have moses killed on the jounrye to pharoah until moses was circumsized by his wife with a stone.
6) walls of jericho tumbling down
etc. (all of those were off the top of my head BTW)

Yes, God often made his presence felt through flood, earthquakes, famine, darkness, etc. Why do people die in these events? People die every day from a variety of things, many man-made. We will all die, only the time and circumstance separating us from each other. Four people died in tornados yesterday, a busload of children were incinerated in a terrorist attack in Basra. Many other people died in non-newsworthy ways.

The Isrealites, when obedient to God, never suffered natural disasters. Only when they strayed were they punished. There are no righteous nations today, certainly not the US. Perhaps natural disasters serve to remind us that mankind, in all our might, are not in control. There are forces beyond our ability to control.

Section 8
04-21-2004, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Heavily Armed
There are no righteous nations today, certainly not the US.

Nor have there ever been.

People are righteous -- nations are not.

Heavily Armed
04-21-2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Section 8
Nor have there ever been.

People are righteous -- nations are not.

There were times when the Isrealites were following, as a nation, God's will. As for people; "There are none righteous, no not one."

Section 8
04-21-2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Heavily Armed
There were times when the Isrealites were following, as a nation, God's will. As for people; "There are none righteous, no not one."

The latter I will grant you.

My re-statement: Acts are righteous -- people are not. People have the capacity and, at times, righteously act; but it is there doing so which makes them righteous, at that instance.

As for the former ... well, I don't really understand peoples' fetish with "history." I attest that the mark of a madman is a positive statement about something that is necessarily not the case.

The Physics Guy
04-21-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by dbmyers
god does everything for a reason.


He probaly wants to make us stronger and build character by putting us through bad things.

Wouldn't life suck if everything was perfect? You would have nothing to be happy about and nothing to shoot for in life.

It would really suck if god made our lifes easy, we would be weak, spiritualy, mentaly, and physicaly.

He's got a plan for us all...

It's harsh love


Yes, being a 6 year old and watching daddy run over your mom, put it in reverse, run over her again, put it in drive, run over her again...Yes that builds a 6 year olds character so much.....

Christians love to us the argument, "life would suck if everything was perfect"...what the **** is heaven going to be like, if everything is perfect, wont it suck?

Ruthless4Life
04-21-2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by The Physics Guy
Christians love to us the argument, "life would suck if everything was perfect"...what the **** is heaven going to be like, if everything is perfect, wont it suck?

Then maybe you're a "hell" kinda guy.

Some things are the things they are. You cannot ask someone for the answer. You have to find out yourself.

Jimineye
04-21-2004, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
And you know this because?

The catholic church recognizes miracles and a certain number (2 I believe) are required for canonization. Also I think think of an example post-resurrection which involves divine intervention. This is from John who states that he was not killed despite numerous attempts on his life because of the holy spirit saving him.


For a person to believe that God purposely sends torndo's, causes earthquakes for no reason at all except to kill people is just absurd. The Christian God is a loving God, sending natural disasters conflicts with this.

Just because the Catholic Church says something makes it true?

Jimineye
04-21-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by CITADEL
Statements like this piss me off, because you are obviously just making it up.

Read my post above.

.aeterna
04-22-2004, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Heavily Armed
Yes, God often made his presence felt through flood, earthquakes, famine, darkness, etc. Why do people die in these events? People die every day from a variety of things, many man-made. We will all die, only the time and circumstance separating us from each other. Four people died in tornados yesterday, a busload of children were incinerated in a terrorist attack in Basra. Many other people died in non-newsworthy ways.

The Isrealites, when obedient to God, never suffered natural disasters. Only when they strayed were they punished. There are no righteous nations today, certainly not the US. Perhaps natural disasters serve to remind us that mankind, in all our might, are not in control. There are forces beyond our ability to control.


Bigass bump. Heavily makes a very key point here. God manipulated nature back then because he was a vengeful God. As well as a forgiving God. Then look ahead to Jesus's Crucificition (sp?). RIGHT after Jesus took his last breath, God sent an quake through the earth, splitting some prominent Jesus temple in HALF. Israel and all the lands around went through a HUGE depression from then on because of what they did to his one and only Son.

CITADEL
04-22-2004, 11:26 AM
So which is it? Does god have no control over nature and it just runs itself, or does he use natural disasters to sacrifice others to make a point to us that in reality we are not in control? Both seem like bad answers to me.

.aeterna
04-22-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by CITADEL
So which is it? Does god have no control over nature and it just runs itself, or does he use natural disasters to sacrifice others to make a point to us that in reality we are not in control? Both seem like bad answers to me.

Id have to say both. During the time of Israel long long ago, a.k.a the 'Holy Times' so to speak, God manipulated nature as punishment or reward. I think it could be said that God was more involved. But more recently, like from the past thousand years on, i think that God has just let nature run its course..

CITADEL
04-22-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by .aeterna
Id have to say both. During the time of Israel long long ago, a.k.a the 'Holy Times' so to speak, God manipulated nature as punishment or reward. I think it could be said that God was more involved. But more recently, like from the past thousand years on, i think that God has just let nature run its course..

In other words, people back then were stupid and contributed everything they didn't understand to the workings of god and over time the stories grew and grew. That is why we don't see miracles or god punishing people anymore, because we know better and know what causes natural disasters to happen. For example, when Hurricane Hugo hit Charleston back in '89, we knew what caused it, however if it would have happened several thousand years ago people would have said it was punishment to the city because it was becoming full of sin.

aflex2002
04-22-2004, 01:09 PM
God doesn't prevent disasters..he only gives us faith to go on living after a disaster occurs....just when you think the times are worth, you always seem to get a little faith to continue...THAT is God...

.aeterna
04-22-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by CITADEL
In other words, people back then were stupid and contributed everything they didn't understand to the workings of god and over time the stories grew and grew. That is why we don't see miracles or god punishing people anymore, because we know better and know what causes natural disasters to happen. For example, when Hurricane Hugo hit Charleston back in '89, we knew what caused it, however if it would have happened several thousand years ago people would have said it was punishment to the city because it was becoming full of sin.

Exactly...except the part about the Hurricane Hugo bit.

I'm not sure if you have read the bible, but there's a huge difference between the Old Testement and New Testement. In the Old, God was vengeful and involved, and in the New, he was forgiving and didn't manipulate nature as much.

I may be off the mark, but since the New Testement is more recent, it may have continued to apply through now.

BigKazWSM747
04-22-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
For a person to believe that God purposely sends torndo's, causes earthquakes for no reason at all except to kill people is just absurd. The Christian God is a loving God, sending natural disasters conflicts with this.

Just because the Catholic Church says something makes it true?

For your latter statement I can just as easily turn that and say "just because the Bible says something does that make it true?"

The fact of the matter is that in the Bible there are plently of instances of God sending his wrath down upon people via nature. So how can you exclude modern day disasters not being of a similar purpose?

Also supposedly these disasters punish the unrighteous and wicked (or mainly them) so how does it contradict the same "loving God" who damns sinners to a pit of fire?

BigKazWSM747
04-22-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by .aeterna
Id have to say both. During the time of Israel long long ago, a.k.a the 'Holy Times' so to speak, God manipulated nature as punishment or reward. I think it could be said that God was more involved. But more recently, like from the past thousand years on, i think that God has just let nature run its course..

It is a contractory thing for a being that stands for total goodness to have two different paths of conduct.

I would agree with CITADEL's explaination.

The Kurgan
04-22-2004, 03:08 PM
Maybe he couldn't care less about humans, and is interested in getting a few laws of Physics that can occupy him. Whether they harm or help spiralling coils of replicating DNA, well, why should he care?

CITADEL
04-22-2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by .aeterna
Exactly...except the part about the Hurricane Hugo bit.

I'm not sure if you have read the bible, but there's a huge difference between the Old Testement and New Testement. In the Old, God was vengeful and involved, and in the New, he was forgiving and didn't manipulate nature as much.

I may be off the mark, but since the New Testement is more recent, it may have continued to apply through now.

This goes along the lines of people wising up to reality, and realizing that god doesn't play a role in our everyday lives. So lets see here, first off why would a perfect god need to be vergeful and why would he get involved? Wouldn't that screw up the free will of the people he was getting involved with? Also, you have to ask why he just stopped being vengeful and decided to just sit back and watch. Why would he need to change his ways? I thought he was perfect, always and everywhere. Could it be he never played a role and people just thought he did because they didn't know how else to explain what was happening? If you just use the common sense 'god' gave you it shouldn't be hard to figure why people from thousands of years ago believed what they did, and why people today don't.

CITADEL
04-22-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by The Kurgan
Maybe he couldn't care less about humans, and is interested in getting a few laws of Physics that can occupy him. Whether they harm or help spiralling coils of replicating DNA, well, why should he care?

If there is a god this is the way he most certaintly feels about us.

BIONIC MAN
04-22-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by The Physics Guy
Christians often say that the reason people can do bad things to other people is because of free will; such as microwaving your baby , smashing baby with concrete block, smashing retarded sister with dumbbell (stories that happened just this week), putting kid in oven....

What about earthquakes /tornado/ flood killing people......

Whose "free will" was it to cause the natural disasters to kill innocent people. And saying it was their free will to live there will not suffice.

If god was perfect / existed why would he create a world that constantly "****s up" I DONT know whether to laugh or cry , GOD gets credit for everything see the devil has power and is at work . lets see good stories fireman pulls baby out of burning building, rich man donates money to homeless family, prosecutor gets death penalty for person who smahed baby with concrete block, man stops would be raper . see god is in charge of the good stuff and lucifer well he is in charge of the ovens.

BigKazWSM747
04-22-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
I DONT know whether to laugh or cry , GOD gets credit for everything see the devil has power and is at work . lets see good stories fireman pulls baby out of burning building, rich man donates money to homeless family, prosecutor gets death penalty for person who smahed baby with concrete block, man stops would be raper . see god is in charge of the good stuff and lucifer well he is in charge of the ovens.

you should cry because you obviously have thought this out about as much as a two-year old would and arrived at an illogical conclusion.

If God is responsible for everything good and satan is responsible for all the evil, then there is no such thing as free will because neither Satan nor God can take responsibility for a person's actions because it is that person's choice what those will be.

Heavily Armed
04-22-2004, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
For your latter statement I can just as easily turn that and say "just because the Bible says something does that make it true?"

The fact of the matter is that in the Bible there are plently of instances of God sending his wrath down upon people via nature. So how can you exclude modern day disasters not being of a similar purpose?

Also supposedly these disasters punish the unrighteous and wicked (or mainly them) so how does it contradict the same "loving God" who damns sinners to a pit of fire?

An interesting prophecy. Natural disasters, wars and rumors of wars are to markedly increase in the last days. These being 'the beginning of sorrows". Also evil will be (is) on the increase. Increasing punishments for increasing evil?

God is loving, so why does He damn sinners to a pit of fire? God is the judge. An unrepentent sinner damns his/herself by rejecting God and leading a life apart from Him. The choice is ours. Hypothetically, (yeah I know the judge wouldn't be allowed to judge such a case) like a judge on the bench, his child guilty of a heinous crime. It is the judge's duty and obligation to hand down the appropriate sentence. Justice demands it. God's love doesn't cover what his holiness can't accept.

BIONIC MAN
04-22-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by CITADEL
So which is it? Does god have no control over nature and it just runs itself, or does he use natural disasters to sacrifice others to make a point to us that in reality we are not in control? Both seem like bad answers to me. commonsense man do you think man has control over a nature . god allows satan to do the destroying he wants to kill and destroy everybody every second of everyday. god restrains satan but satan for example says look god at citadel he has blasphemed you for years but god says leave him alone then one day god see,s it is to no avail so lucifer is loosed and all hell breaks loose it might be a warning who knows or worse job was satans victim but satan killed his children that is worse than dying your self . citadel if you have control over nature and your life span and health good luck.

Section 8
04-22-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Heavily Armed
An interesting prophecy. Natural disasters, wars and rumors of wars are to markedly increase in the last days. These being 'the beginning of sorrows". Also evil will be (is) on the increase. Increasing punishments for increasing evil?

Or so it would seem.

OTOH, that would be to arbitrarily reject the prima facie evidence for the more rational inductive conclusion.

There are 6.5 times as many people living today as have lived on this planet, in total, over the course of the past 12000 years prior to this century.

Additionally, the world is far smaller today than it has ever been in the past ... to such a degree, that the difference is unfathomable to us. Needless to say, those who were living in Northern Africa c. 10000 BCE didn't receive real-time disaster reports from North America via satellite feed.

Has the evil really increased? Have the disasters really increased? Or, are we just acutely more aware of both?

Heavily Armed
04-22-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Section 8
Or so it would seem.

OTOH, that would be to arbitrarily reject the prima facie evidence for the more rational inductive conclusion.

There are 6.5 times as many people living today as have lived on this planet, in total, over the course of the past 12000 years prior to this century.

Additionally, the world is far smaller today than it has ever been in the past ... to such a degree, that the difference is unfathomable to us. Needless to say, those who were living in Northern Africa c. 10000 BCE didn't receive real-time disaster reports from North America via satellite feed.

Has the evil really increased? Have the disasters really increased? Or, are we just acutely more aware of both?

I heard a secular report that earthquakes have markedly increased. How far back the comparison goes, I don't know. I had the same skepticism, maybe it's just a matter of better equipment monitoring the situation. The report then claimed that it wasn't better and more sensitive equipment, it was simply, for unknown reasons, more earthquakes occuring.

I believe evil is on the increase, morality decreasing. Lot of indicators there.

BIONIC MAN
04-22-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
you should cry because you obviously have thought this out about as much as a two-year old would and arrived at an illogical conclusion.

If God is responsible for everything good and satan is responsible for all the evil, then there is no such thing as free will because neither Satan nor God can take responsibility for a person's actions because it is that person's choice what those will be. you my friend are at least a thinking man short on the facts but thinking nonetheless. humans are a combo of good and evil and you can choose thats right you can decide to do good or evil. you can do the devils will or gods will and choose. pretty good for a two year old,illogical is the idea that were robots were given a choice follow god through faith or deny him as lucifer wants us too and follow a feel good pseudo secular humanists belief system that constantly needs updated becuase the so called facts are disproven everyday needing revisement .

Section 8
04-22-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Heavily Armed
I heard a secular report that earthquakes have markedly increased. How far back the comparison goes, I don't know. I had the same skepticism, maybe it's just a matter of better equipment monitoring the situation. The report then claimed that it wasn't better and more sensitive equipment, it was simply, for unknown reasons, more earthquakes occuring.

I believe evil is on the increase, morality decreasing. Lot of indicators there.

I grew up in Los Angeles. There had to be reports of at least five earthquakes per day -- I lived there for seven years without feeling a single one. Keep in mind, the definition for 'earthquake' has changed as well.

Those who are quickest to scream "Armageddon" also have the most to fear in the event that they are correct.

Evil is just the same as it has always been. As I've noted in the past (numerous times, mind you), the mind is a thing of divine inspiration; there is no such thing as an 'evil genius'. Evil is tantamount to stupidity. Do you expect to witness the good in the world while watching 'Lost Island'? A friend once complained that finding a good woman was like looking for a needle in a rat-infested haystack -- I gave him this advice: don't go to parties, and stay away from the bars and nightclubs.

The moral of the story is this: if you surround yourself with trash, you have no right to complain once it starts to stink.

Heavily Armed
04-22-2004, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Section 8
I grew up in Los Angeles. There had to be reports of at least five earthquakes per day -- I lived there for seven years without feeling a single one. Keep in mind, the definition for 'earthquake' has changed as well.

Those who are quickest to scream "Armageddon" also have the most to fear in the event that they are correct.

Evil is just the same as it has always been. As I've noted in the past (numerous times, mind you), the mind is a thing of divine inspiration; there is no such thing as an 'evil genius'. Evil is tantamount to stupidity. Do you expect to witness the good in the world while watching 'Lost Island'? A friend once complained that finding a good woman was like looking for a needle in a rat-infested haystack -- I gave him this advice: don't go to parties, and stay away from the bars and nightclubs.

The moral of the story is this: if you surround yourself with trash, you have no right to complain once it starts to stink.

I experienced my first earthquake in December of 1999 while visiting Kodiak, Alaska. Not very destructive but definately a shaker, I enjoyed the experience. Anyway, the report I saw definately stated it wasn't a matter of sensitivity in equipment. Both big and small earthquakes have been increasing.

Evil is constant. But the acceptance of evil is dramitically increasing. I've seen it in my lifetime. Especially sexual immorality. Behaviors once considered shameful and disgraceful are now commonplace and widely accepted. There are many other instances as well. Like a seismograph, one must be sensitive to such things to detect the changing attitudes.

Jimineye
04-23-2004, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
For your latter statement I can just as easily turn that and say "just because the Bible says something does that make it true?"

The fact of the matter is that in the Bible there are plently of instances of God sending his wrath down upon people via nature. So how can you exclude modern day disasters not being of a similar purpose?

Also supposedly these disasters punish the unrighteous and wicked (or mainly them) so how does it contradict the same "loving God" who damns sinners to a pit of fire?


Like .aeterna has stated, God during the Old Testament was vengeful and interacted with the people more, while in the New Testament he is more forgiving. I don't see how if people can change why can't God do so either?

Anyways I find it pointless to argue religion, because no one is going to change my mind into not believing in God, and I'm obviously not going to change anyones mind into believing God unless they want to.

Lynne
04-23-2004, 07:38 AM
The bible states that the earth is cursed because of man's rebellion and that the whole of creation groans in anticipation of redemption. I've heard expository preachers teach as if the rocks have an intelligence; that flora and fauna are eagerly awaiting perfection. But it must be a metaphor because these were fundamentalist preachers, not Universalists :).

Quantum_Man
04-23-2004, 07:54 AM
The reason our world is messed up is because of our own sin, that is our rejection and turning away from God. God is loving yes and He is also just. Because of our sin, we all rightly deserve death. However God did an extraordinary thing when He sent His Son to die for our sins, in our place, so we wouldn't have to. He did this even while we were still sinners and were still rebelling against Him! This is the ultimate act of love. We damn ourselves by not accepting that Jesus died for our sins.

BigKazWSM747
04-23-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
Like .aeterna has stated, God during the Old Testament was vengeful and interacted with the people more, while in the New Testament he is more forgiving. I don't see how if people can change why can't God do so either?

Anyways I find it pointless to argue religion, because no one is going to change my mind into not believing in God, and I'm obviously not going to change anyones mind into believing God unless they want to.

People are falliable and subject to stupidity God is not. The Christian God stands for absolutes and is all-knowing so there is no reason for him to change his mind, if he knows what is good and can not act any other way (or else he is no longer totally good).

Runnin12
04-24-2004, 01:27 AM
Bible prophecy is very interesting. They say that the middle east situation will be resolved by the anti christ which will make a 7 year peace, and everyone in the world will be happy and say "Great, there is finally peace!". But in reality the Anti Christ will go back on his word 3 1/2 years and invade Isreal? Or something like that. The AntiChrist will force people to take his "mark of the beast" in the right hand or forehead and if you don't take it you wont be able to buy or sell anything.

*Most people think it will be a microchip containing your social security number, credit card # and all of your information. This technology is already being used on animals and prisoners in some parts of the world* Verichip technology.

I personally think we are in end times. The middle east is getting worse and worse by the day. I dont think the end will happen anytime soon, but not to far off. Maybe by the end of my lifetime. In the bible they said in the endtimes people are "lovers of themselves, greedy, vein, power hungry" and so on. I see a lot of this. On tv its complete decadence.

I know two people who have been clinically dead for under a minute and they both said life surely doesn't end when you die. Their clinical deaths changed their outlook on life completely.

I never used to be to religous because i never read the bible. I was at the lowest point in my life and I turned to Jesus and he saved me. I will never be the same again. I used to be happy from having an escalade or a nice house and a hot girlfriend, but now all that stuff is meaningless to me. The bible showed me their is way more to life then thinking about yourself and material things. There is so much knowledge in the bible I KNOW it's true. The bible changed me from a selfish person who only cared about myself to caring more about how I can help others now and doing whats right. I am not perfect but I improved myself in so many ways because of the bible. I will always give it up for Jesus Christ because he saved me when I needed help and got me out of the bad situation I was in.

Before I turned to God I was scared to die. I am not anymore though. The bible changes peoples hearts. I have seen drug dealers, gangmembers who only cared about appearing "hard" and turn to Jesus and become walking loving Jesus disciples. That is enough evidence for me that the bible is true. I myself am evidence.

My advice, is don't just put christians down and try to prove us wrong. Genuinly read the bible and take its teachings to heart, and decide for yourself. Plus I have had 2 people who I was close to die in the last year and a half. I would like to think they are in a better place rather then just being "dead". Life would be completly stupid if you just died and there was nothing else.

BIONIC MAN
04-24-2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
People are falliable and subject to stupidity God is not. The Christian God stands for absolutes and is all-knowing so there is no reason for him to change his mind, if he knows what is good and can not act any other way (or else he is no longer totally good). gods angels told abraham they would destroy sodom and gommorrah . finally after bargaining it was declared if ten righteous people were found it would be spared. yes all knowing but god reasons in all situations , he spared ninevah after jonah preached destruction if it did not repent it repented. the problem i have some of you think you know god and proclaim this and that ,but you guess what god is and never read his word and use faith to understand it.

Section 8
04-24-2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
the problem i have some of you think you know god and proclaim this and that ,but you guess what god is and never read his word and use faith to understand it.

Insofar as I can relate, that statement does not make any sense.

I have yet to find anyone capable of explaining to me what is this so-called "faith"; how can its advocates claim its utility as an epistemic device when they can't even explain what it is or how it functions?

Who exactly is guessing what what is?

Over the course of the twenty years through which I have lived on this planet I have probably read through the Bible, cover to cover, more times than I have any other book (and I've spent a considerable amount of time reading). None the less, I have yet to find anything indicative of there exististing such a thing as faith. Sure, people throw around the word regularly, as if the utterance itself possesses some sort or intrinsic meaning -- but what? "It's just something you have to have." Have what? How can you know that you have it, if you can't even identify it?!?

Until someone can give me any reason to think otherwise -- and I mean any reason, whether or not its a compelling reason; just so long as it is a sensible reason -- I contend that faith is no different from the oft-envoked 'common sense'. Just as 'common sense' amounts to nothing more than a way to psychologically sugar-coat "sheer idiocy," so too I say of faith: it is nothing more than a comforting way by which to refer to madness.

fmusclekg
04-24-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Quantum_Man
The reason our world is messed up is because of our own sin, that is our rejection and turning away from God. God is loving yes and He is also just. Because of our sin, we all rightly deserve death. However God did an extraordinary thing when He sent His Son to die for our sins, in our place, so we wouldn't have to. He did this even while we were still sinners and were still rebelling against Him! This is the ultimate act of love. We damn ourselves by not accepting that Jesus died for our sins.

Nicely put :)

xman06
04-24-2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Section 8
Insofar as I can relate, that statement does not make any sense.

I have yet to find anyone capable of explaining to me what is this so-called "faith"; how can its advocates claim its utility as an epistemic device when they can't even explain what it is or how it functions?



Im 15, so give me a break if Im not explaining it perfectly, but faith to me is sort of like wisdom. Can you really explain what wisdom is or how it functions.... its sort of like trust, you have faith that the sun will rise each day, when you get married, you have faith in your partner, its your belief that you trust what you believe in and know it is true. Its hard to explain for me, maybe someone who is past the 10th grade can explain it better. :)

Section 8
04-24-2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by xman06
Im 15, so give me a break if Im not explaining it perfectly, but faith to me is sort of like wisdom. Can you really explain what wisdom is or how it functions.... its sort of like trust, you have faith that the sun will rise each day, when you get married, you have faith in your partner, its your belief that you trust what you believe in and know it is true. Its hard to explain for me, maybe someone who is past the 10th grade can explain it better. :)

My words are only vitriolic when I am responding to people who are unwilling to explain the claims they make (and especially so when those claims are malicious). As such, I am nothing but appreciative of your efforts :)

However, I think that wisdom is perfectly understandable. Wisdom, as I understand it, is an epistemic device founded upon past experience. As such, its veracity is dependent upon the individual -- it is not absolute. IMO people tend to over-extend their use of the word, in that they extend it to things which are grossly general. Wisdom tends to equate to what the modern youth term "street smarts" -- knowledge from context-specific experience. Hence such truisms as "when in Rome, do as the Romans do"; being as your wisdom, or "street smarts" is not applicable in Rome, it is only sensible to realize that the probability for its advantageous application is not as secure as it would be otherwise.

Insofar as the rising of the sun and the fidelity of a wife are concerned, let me ask this: is it that you have faith in those things, or is it that the chances of them being otherwise are next to nil? (Or perhaps, are nil, in the rising sun example). There have certainly been many 'a fool who have picked up hookers, got hitched in Vegas, and woken up the next day to find their car stolen; is it that a sane person has faith that his wife won't do the same -- or is it that a sane person only marries once he knows his partner so well that mere contemplation of that situation occurring is absurd?

Or -- perhaps more pertinent to the discussion at hand -- would you say "I have faith that I am alive," or do you know that you are alive? Where does faith enter into one's thoughts whilst the object of contemplation is absolute truth or absolute knowledge? The mere definition of the words as such precludes any room for doubt; so why is faith necessary?

xman06
04-24-2004, 08:39 PM
I know Im not answering your question, but what do you think happens when you die? What happens in your opinion

Quantum_Man
04-24-2004, 08:44 PM
Hebrews 11:1 says,
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

I have faith that God is real, and that He sent His only Son to die for our sins. Now both of these beliefs can be supported with scientific and historical artifacts, but for the most part in order to believe it, you have to take that "leap of faith". Faith has to do with trust also, I am putting my trust in God.

Like you know the activity where you have a person stand behind you and you fall backwards, trusting that they will catch you? You can't see them or know where their hands are to catch you, but you trust that they will indeed catch you.

BIONIC MAN
04-24-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Section 8
My words are only vitriolic when I am responding to people who are unwilling to explain the claims they make (and especially so when those claims are malicious). As such, I am nothing but appreciative of your efforts :)

However, I think that wisdom is perfectly understandable. Wisdom, as I understand it, is an epistemic device founded upon past experience. As such, its veracity is dependent upon the individual -- it is not absolute. IMO people tend to over-extend their use of the word, in that they extend it to things which are grossly general. Wisdom tends to equate to what the modern youth term "street smarts" -- knowledge from context-specific experience. Hence such truisms as "when in Rome, do as the Romans do"; being as your wisdom, or "street smarts" is not applicable in Rome, it is only sensible to realize that the probability for its advantageous application is not as secure as it would be otherwise.

Insofar as the rising of the sun and the fidelity of a wife are concerned, let me ask this: is it that you have faith in those things, or is it that the chances of them being otherwise are next to nil? (Or perhaps, are nil, in the rising sun example). There have certainly been many 'a fool who have picked up hookers, got hitched in Vegas, and woken up the next day to find their car stolen; is it that a sane person has faith that his wife won't do the same -- or is it that a sane person only marries once he knows his partner so well that mere contemplation of that situation occurring is absurd?

Or -- perhaps more pertinent to the discussion at hand -- would you say "I have faith that I am alive," or do you know that you are alive? Where does faith enter into one's thoughts whilst the object of contemplation is absolute truth or absolute knowledge? The mere definition of the words as such precludes any room for doubt; so why is faith necessary? faith is believing in something you cannot see,hear,feel, its believing in something that almost seems un-believable. you use faith everyday in the natural world but you doubt things of the supernatural world . if a doctor performs surgery on you faith is what you put into him ,if you cannot then would you let him perform surgery on you NO. same with GOD you put faith in him to give you eternal life after death . if you cannot place faith in everlasting life your hope is lost becuase your time is a mere blip on the radar of time and your gone forever . but as followers of god we realize your time in eternity will be spent in a un-happy place becuase of denying a holy god who gave you every opportunity to repent . even the great educated minds of jesus,s day were lost becuase of there intelligence they thought they knew everything but jesus REBUKED !!!! THE LEADERS of his day for there closed minds.

Heavily Armed
04-24-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Section 8
Insofar as I can relate, that statement does not make any sense.

I have yet to find anyone capable of explaining to me what is this so-called "faith"; how can its advocates claim its utility as an epistemic device when they can't even explain what it is or how it functions?

Who exactly is guessing what what is?

Over the course of the twenty years through which I have lived on this planet I have probably read through the Bible, cover to cover, more times than I have any other book (and I've spent a considerable amount of time reading). None the less, I have yet to find anything indicative of there exististing such a thing as faith. Sure, people throw around the word regularly, as if the utterance itself possesses some sort or intrinsic meaning -- but what? "It's just something you have to have." Have what? How can you know that you have it, if you can't even identify it?!?

Until someone can give me any reason to think otherwise -- and I mean any reason, whether or not its a compelling reason; just so long as it is a sensible reason -- I contend that faith is no different from the oft-envoked 'common sense'. Just as 'common sense' amounts to nothing more than a way to psychologically sugar-coat "sheer idiocy," so too I say of faith: it is nothing more than a comforting way by which to refer to madness.

You've read the Bible, read the scriptures and chapters on faith. You had to have gotten some idea as to the meaning, in the Biblical context, of faith.

Faith initially comes about by a spiritual stirring. Conviction in church during a sermon, talking with someone about the direction of a seemingly hopeless life, or having exhausted all you're own resources in trying to find a meaning or purpose to life.

So what is this faith? A solid belief in the reality of God, an acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God, who died for our sins and was resurrected. It is the expectation of knowing we will die and stand before God to be judged. It is accepting the morals of God and applying them, to the best of our abilities, in our life. It is a peace, having a personal relationship with the Creator, who loves us. It is feeling his presence through prayer and worship, seeing His hand in our daily lives. It is answered prayers, sometimes through miraculous means. Faith encompasses many things, as does life. Having gotten to this point, the dramatic changes in my person, I am willing to accept the details of my faith as fact. Fact that will be proven, either in my life through the inevitable events of prophecy or at my death as I go into eternity to meet God. This faith takes precedent over all other things in my life. It is the code I live by. Not perfectly, but striving for perfection. I don't expect to fail, but it happens. A temporary setback. I will stay the course.

BigKazWSM747
04-24-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
gods angels told abraham they would destroy sodom and gommorrah . finally after bargaining it was declared if ten righteous people were found it would be spared. yes all knowing but god reasons in all situations , he spared ninevah after jonah preached destruction if it did not repent it repented. the problem i have some of you think you know god and proclaim this and that ,but you guess what god is and never read his word and use faith to understand it.

God also tortured Job to win a bet with the devil.

BIONIC MAN
04-24-2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
God always tortured Job to win a bet with the devil. sounds close but here,s the truth the devil is an accuser,so he said GOD!! job is rich and you have taken good care of him no wonder he loves you. well actually the devil was right god had placed a hedge about him to protect and bless job. so god dropped the hedge so the devil could give him hell on earth this is what john the baptist talked about a[ BAPTISM OF FIRE] thats when your set on fire to purify you every christian will go through this . and in the final anaylisis job prevailed and got back all his wealth and even more . so trusting god works JOB PROVES IT. we all know what the devil pays

BigKazWSM747
04-24-2004, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
sounds close but here,s the truth the devil is an accuser,so he said GOD!! job is rich and you have taken good care of him no wonder he loves you. well actually the devil was right god had placed a hedge about him to protect and bless job. so god dropped the hedge so the devil could give him hell on earth this is what john the baptist talked about a[ BAPTISM OF FIRE] thats when your set on fire to purify you every christian will go through this . and in the final anaylisis job prevailed and got back all his wealth and even more . so trusting god works JOB PROVES IT. we all know what the devil pays


...assuming that interruptation is correct let me point out a few things:

1) God was corrected by the devil and then changed his mind in what is basically to the devil's benefit because Job was already faithful.

2) God was interferring with some outside sources because otherwise, as you imply, Job would not have been as successful.

3) Satan is the cause of Job's intense suffering.

4) points 2&3 imply that we are pawns in a game between God and Devil and free will doesn't seem to be a very factor in this game.

5) All of these thing are either contradictory with later doctrines or don't appear like they would be the conduct of an absolutely good and all-knowing God.

BIONIC MAN
04-24-2004, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
...assuming that interruptation is correct let me point out a few things:

1) God was corrected by the devil and then changed his mind in what is basically to the devil's benefit because Job was already faithful.

2) God was interferring with some outside sources because otherwise, as you imply, Job would not have been as successful.

3) Satan is the cause of Job's intense suffering.

4) points 2&3 imply that we are pawns in a game between God and Devil and free will doesn't seem to be a very factor in this game.

5) All of these thing are either contradictory with later doctrines or don't appear like they would be the conduct of an absolutely good and all-knowing God. GOD LISTENED to the devil becuase he is the leader of the fallen angels!!!! being faithful was easy for job becuase his life was great GOD knew that. job had a choice HIS WIFE said curse god and die JOB CHOSE NOT TOO . yes satan was the bringer of affliction,s on job . really trust in god is easy look the angels had it all and one third fell away so we must prove our loyalty but we will be above them one day and satan hates that. free will gives you a choice serve the liar satan or trust god. god is righteous meaning he does the right things AND letting the devil have job for a season was right EXAMPLE would you want a friend only loyal becuase you are a blessing to him or have a friend he likes you even though you have nothing to offer.

BigKazWSM747
04-24-2004, 09:37 PM
Hmmmm ok God listened to the devil because lucifer led an open revolt against him. Became the polar opposite of what God stands for (being totally evil). I guess the devil then also goes along with God's criticims or thoughts voluntarily then too because he represents totally opposite values and God would have made "a valid point". :rolleyes: That is the dumbest line of reasoning I've heard yet.

Obviously Job's faith was deeper than just being happy because of his success or else he would have turned away from God. And since God is omnipotent he would have known this, and since he and Satan both take an active role in people's lives (as this story suggests) it doesn't seem like something he would allow.

BIONIC MAN
04-24-2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Hmmmm ok God listened to the devil because lucifer led an open revolt against him. Became the polar opposite of what God stands for (being totally evil). I guess the devil then also goes along with God's criticims or thoughts voluntarily then too because he represents totally opposite values and God would have made "a valid point". :rolleyes: That is the dumbest line of reasoning I've heard yet.

Obviously Job's faith was deeper than just being happy because of his success or else he would have turned away from God. And since God is omnipotent he would have known this, and since he and Satan both take an active role in people's lives (as this story suggests) it doesn't seem like something he would allow. GOD made satan just like hitler and other creeps , but free will allows them to go there way . yes god sees two ways a person might go EVIL OR GOOD.

BigKazWSM747
04-24-2004, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
GOD made satan just like hitler and other creeps , but free will allows them to go there way . yes god sees two ways a person might go EVIL OR GOOD.

Way to dodge the issue.

which is Why would God change his mind and consent to the devil's request when the devil is supposed to be totally evil and god is totally good? How can something totally evil make a point that is not in itself evil and so conflicts with the totally good route?

BIONIC MAN
04-24-2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Way to dodge the issue.

which is Why would God change his mind and consent to the devil's request when the devil is supposed to be totally evil and god is totally good? How can something totally evil make a point that is not in itself evil and so conflicts with the totally good route? Hmmm.... BECUASE !!!!! THE prince of darkness was right JOB was blessed by god . continually lude remarks are not profitable [way to dodge issue ] . listen im tired of answering your questions answer me some now!!!! why are people evil give me a good detailed answer and answer me why ? some sins of the bible were abominations and others sins.

BigKazWSM747
04-24-2004, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
Hmmm.... BECUASE !!!!! THE prince of darkness was right JOB was blessed by god . continually lude remarks are not profitable [way to dodge issue ] . listen im tired of answering your questions answer me some now!!!! why are people evil give me a good detailed answer and answer me why ? some sins of the bible were abominations and others sins.

I'll answer your question first then explain to you why your answer doesn't hold up. Also the sins in question definitely appear to have a lot more behind them then the free will of man, because both man and nature punish Job and the devil would only complain of God blessing Job if he was unable to harm him because of God's blessing.

People are not evil. They have the capacity to be good or evil but that does not make them evil.

Your answer implies that because 'the prince of darkness was right' and God was blessing Job that God must have changed his mind because he shouldn't have been blessing him.

This runs into problems because why would God do something in the first place that he shouldn't be doing because it is not right? I thought god always did the right thing. Second Satan's goal is to tempt people with seemingly acceptable arguments so that the righteous commit an unrighteous act (notice how Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness). Satan, since he is supposed to be totally evil, would only suggest something if it was to his advantage or gain and God being totally good and all-knowing would see this and so he would discard whatever the devil had to say.

BIONIC MAN
04-24-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
I'll answer your question first then explain to you why your answer doesn't hold up. Also the sins in question definitely appear to have a lot more behind them then the free will of man, because both man and nature punish Job and the devil would only complain of God blessing Job if he was unable to harm him because of God's blessing.

People are not evil. They have the capacity to be good or evil but that does not make them evil.

. cannot people be the instrument of evil through which satan works? if a person is doing evil would that not be an EVIL person . could satan use nature to do harm to people ? if god blessed a person and stopped would that not at least be his choice seeing he created everything.

Heavily Armed
04-24-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
God also tortured Job to win a bet with the devil.

The story of Job serves as an example of one man's faith through terrible adversity which is ultimately rewarded by God. It is similiar to the lives we lead, but not on so dramatic a scale. We will face trials and tribulations, both christians and non-christians. If we keep the faith, or find the faith, we will be rewarded. It is the story of both human faith and God's faith. It gives us hope in the face of bad times.

BigKazWSM747
04-24-2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
cannot people be the instrument of evil through which satan works? if a person is doing evil would that not be an EVIL person . could satan use nature to do harm to people ? if god blessed a person and stopped would that not at least be his choice seeing he created everything.

Yes, people can do evil works because they have the capacity to act righteously or sinfully.

No the person is not themselves evil. Jesus would most likely agree with this because if people were evil then they would not be able to recieve redemption.

Personally, I don't think Satan can because I see any type of supernatural intervention as violating the principle of free will.

Whether or not it is his choice is irrelevant. Yes, God feasibly could just as he could decide to switch sides and become totally evil if he desired. He does not though because he is totally good and since he is considered to be all-knowing he knows that evil is fruitless when compared to good. And basically being all-knowing, all-powerful, and totally good does not go very well with changing your mind.

BIONIC MAN
04-24-2004, 10:38 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
[B]Yes, people can do evil works because they have the capacity to act righteously or sinfully.

but the bible proclaims were born in sin , so the purpose of jesus was to sacrifice himself for our sins. and we be forgiven by acting on his free gift of salvation asking and receiving it . atonement that would please god what greater gift than god sacrificing his own son for our sins. in all reality the devil must have lots of power for god to do this for us.

BigKazWSM747
04-25-2004, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
[B]Yes, people can do evil works because they have the capacity to act righteously or sinfully.

but the bible proclaims were born in sin , so the purpose of jesus was to sacrifice himself for our sins. and we be forgiven by acting on his free gift of salvation asking and receiving it . atonement that would please god what greater gift than god sacrificing his own son for our sins. in all reality the devil must have lots of power for god to do this for us.

If you want to believe that people are evil and have to be converted and that if they don't believe then they go to hell (even if they have never heard of jesus) then fine. I can not.

If God is all-powerful then he could just snap his fingers and the devil die. The devil and God both can not be all powerful and since God created lucifer he should have the same amount of power over him as he does over the plagues in Egypt although he does not exercise this power.

There are some problems right there along with the 2 large segments you have not responded to in my posts.

BIONIC MAN
04-25-2004, 02:22 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigKazWSM747


If God is all-powerful then he could just snap his fingers and the devil die. The devil and God both can not be all powerful and since God created lucifer he should have the same amount of power over him as he does over the plagues in Egypt although he does not exercise this power. -----READ THIS---- GOD is all powerful!!!!! but he created satan and satan turned evil on his on . and WHY? would god kill him [see] satan and the fallen angels walked and talked to GOD they did not have faith they were in heaven and they still rebelled . its understandable ATHEIST and others who have LIFESTYLES [inappropiate] to reject god. GOD wants people who trust him who have never seen him faith is what he wants . the old way did not work some people could see god face to face and still not want to follow him. but if god destroyed satan without first proving to him people will follow him by faith and not sight than it would be BORING!!!!! SOME people just love sin they want no part of god there lifestyles are abominations and they know if they follow god they have to renounce these SINS.

Runnin12
04-25-2004, 02:23 PM
As you know the devil is a creation of God. He can take him out in two seconds, and he will. In the bible they say God is letting the devil run around to tempt people, and that through his word people can overcome his temptations if they take the teachings of the bible and turn to God, and have faith. They say that life is just a learning process, and a chance to grow spiritually with every problem and learn, and hopefully through good works you can go to heaven when you die. God does not dictate his people, he gives them free will to do good or evil. You will have to give him account of your life when you die.

Satan was a respected beautiful angel. But he was power hungry. He wanted to have the position of God. But being a mere creation of God, he was easily overthrown.

In bible prophecy they say that the endtimes will start from the middle east. Right now we are in the tribulation peroid. God is letting all this go on to test his people, and let them indure hardship. Times will continue to get worse, but eventually as said in the bible the 2nd coming of Jesus will occur. The devil will be put away in hell forever by God.

I have overcome my addictions that I thought I would never be able to break, because of my faith in God. If I did not have my faith in him I would still have them. I know there is a God. I can bet my life on it.

Read the bible and take its teachings to heart, and decide for yourself.

Quantum_Man
04-25-2004, 02:35 PM
I just wanted to clarify something that's being talked about a lot here recently. God DID create the being who is now Satan. Of course God did NOT create Satan bad in the first place, Lucifer was an angel who could choose whether or not to follow God or to reject Him. Obviously he chose to rebel against God and that is where Satan was born, from his own pride.

Runnin12
04-25-2004, 02:51 PM
Bionic, also ofcourse people like to sin. But it's not right. Let me tell you about my dads friend Mike.

Mike was a good looking guy and had it all, good job, wife, kids, nice house, the whole deal. But, Mike developed a drug problem and kept it hidden from everyone. Slowly but surely he started to break down. Every area of his life begun to fall. Sure enough he lost his job, his wife wanted a divorce, kids hated him, he blew all of his money, wife took the house, and he had a heart attack from the drugs and almost died at 40. He was put in a mental hospital.

I went to go visit him when he was in the hospital and he wanted to die. He was at the lowest point of his life. I gave him a bible. He told me he knew he had to stop the drugs and get his life back on track, but he liked being high and doing drugs. But even he knew as much as he liked to sin, he had to stop for what it was doing to him and people around him. Mike said to me I wish I was never in this situation right now. I told Mike in a nice way, "If you lived by the ways of the bible you wouldn't be here right now." He agreed. I gave him a bible, and he reads it everyday now. He is happy now because he found God and that I helped him when he needed it. Mike destroyed everything because he was only concentrating on his next high, and nothing else.

Because that is the nature of sin. You only concentrate on how you can please yourself and your own needs. It brings you futher and further away from God and doing whats right.

The bible says greed, being vien, addiction, power hungry, etc brings you away from God. I know it does.

My sister is really pretty but she is so vien. She sits infront of the mirror for hours, literally. She only cares about herself and not about God or other people. She is beautiful on the outside, yet she is miserable on the inside and cries all the time. She is miserable because she is self centered and only cares about herself instead of whats right.

Sin feels good and people enjoy it, but it's wrong. Instead of thinking how to please yourself, think about helping other people and God almighty. It seems like you want to tell yourself there is no God. Jesus loves you man. Give him a chance. Peace be with you brother.

BigKazWSM747
04-25-2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
but if god destroyed satan without first proving to him people will follow him by faith and not sight than it would be BORING!!!!! SOME people just love sin they want no part of god there lifestyles are abominations and they know if they follow god they have to renounce these SINS.

So an all-powerful, all-knowing, and totally good being bases a decision simply because it would be boring otherwise? Sounds like a placing of human emotions/feelings onto something that is supposed to be above those.

BIONIC MAN
04-25-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
So an all-powerful, all-knowing, and totally good being bases a decision simply because it would be boring otherwise? Sounds like a placing of human emotions/feelings onto something that is supposed to be above those. if god snapped his fingers and satan was gone you would still have millions of wicked people here on earth. see god will not force one to be good or bad but let them choose there path. and our emotions/feelings are part of god he made us in his image. as far as being boring this universe will never be im sure with or without mankind. see GOD came down to earth as a man JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH so he knows all our pains and joys . jesus was a perfect man and that could only be accompliced by GOD. the stupid devil tried to get him to sin when god cannot . i can and you can but GOD cannot all his actions are RIGHTEOUS.

BigKazWSM747
04-25-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
if god snapped his fingers and satan was gone you would still have millions of wicked people here on earth. see god will not force one to be good or bad but let them choose there path. and our emotions/feelings are part of god he made us in his image. as far as being boring this universe will never be im sure with or without mankind. see GOD came down to earth as a man JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH so he knows all our pains and joys . jesus was a perfect man and that could only be accompliced by GOD. the stupid devil tried to get him to sin when god cannot . i can and you can but GOD cannot all his actions are RIGHTEOUS.

by that rationale then how do you know that the end times will ever occur?

And at the very mimimum judging from the story of Job, evil would not take near as active of a role in people's lives (i.e. forces, probably natural, beyond their control).

fmusclekg
04-26-2004, 01:54 PM
Matthew 24:11-14

11_And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12_and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13_But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14_And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

BIONIC MAN
04-26-2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
by that rationale then how do you know that the end times will ever occur?

And at the very mimimum judging from the story of Job, evil would not take near as active of a role in people's lives (i.e. forces, probably natural, beyond their control). I do not rationale!!!!! the bible says the end times will occur do you ? every read gods word. you act like i make this up or argue yes you rationale,think,guess, but i base mine on a bible a bibliography of thousands of quotes and thousands of eye witnesses . do you base your knowledge on pure logic or some book from amazon i am amazed at what you come up with . if you disreguard the knowledge of god that much you must have a deep seated hate of the holy spirit . it would be more productive in your case to quote what you and yours follow. the best reason to listen and follow the bible is the wisdom it holds that is a good enough reason for it. proverbs,psalms, these are a good start i even like the apocrypha.

BigKazWSM747
04-26-2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by BIONIC MAN
I do not rationale!!!!! the bible says the end times will occur do you ? every read gods word. you act like i make this up or argue yes you rationale,think,guess, but i base mine on a bible a bibliography of thousands of quotes and thousands of eye witnesses . do you base your knowledge on pure logic or some book from amazon i am amazed at what you come up with . if you disreguard the knowledge of god that much you must have a deep seated hate of the holy spirit . it would be more productive in your case to quote what you and yours follow. the best reason to listen and follow the bible is the wisdom it holds that is a good enough reason for it. proverbs,psalms, these are a good start i even like the apocrypha.

...if your trying to discredit reasoning because of the opinion of a bunch of fools doesn't concur then you sadly mistaken. I doubt you agree with the majority of the world who does not believe Jesus Christ is the savior of mankind, yet just because they believe that does it obligate you to do the same? Since you believe the Almighty created the world, if anything, the way the world is logically structred and the many things which are be broken down into logic (such as mathematics) should be prove enough to you that reason is a very big part in understanding God.

God CAN NOT make contradictory decisions unless he is not absolute. And if he is not absolute then either he is capable of sin or sin is a crock of ****, either option doesn't do much for you.

Bionik
04-26-2004, 08:54 PM
No offense guys, but this is probably the worst debate I've ever seen =P