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aserecuba
04-07-2004, 07:03 PM
sure seems like it. we are getting trashed in iraq. sure not by the thousands but 1 everyday sure adds up. we dont even have enough troops over here to compensate, the dollar value is going down, everyone looks blaming us for every wrong in the world. just a thought.

BigKazWSM747
04-07-2004, 07:11 PM
As #1 the US's reign is coming to an end. It won't be too long before China and us are the two superpowers.

supergarr
04-07-2004, 07:36 PM
i doubt the US will let that happen. We will do whatever it takes to be on top, even if it means giving weapons to taiwain, training south koreans and sending spy planes to our "allies" and ignoring the UN and taking advantage of NATO :)

Ak47
04-07-2004, 07:46 PM
the reign of the US will eventually come to an end, as it did for the romans and the british and every other superpower in history. It doesnt matter if we cant see it happening now, were only 230 years old, the romans ruled for like 800 years, and im sure they didnt see theyre end coming after 200 years.

supergarr
04-07-2004, 07:49 PM
yes i can see it now in another 600 years.


Big neon signs floating in orbit


"HELLO ALIENS, WELCOME TO PLANET AMERICA. ENJOY YOUR STAY
-Georg W. Bush XXV"

supergarr
04-07-2004, 07:51 PM
"People of planet america, it has come to our conclusion, that the inhabitants of venus are harboring martian terrorists and have WMD"

Jimineye
04-07-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by supergarr
"People of planet america, it has come to our conclusion, that the inhabitants of venus are harboring martian terrorists and have WMD"

:D :D I'm in for the take over of Mars and Venus. :D I want a deathstar.

BigKazWSM747
04-07-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by supergarr
i doubt the US will let that happen. We will do whatever it takes to be on top, even if it means giving weapons to taiwain, training south koreans and sending spy planes to our "allies" and ignoring the UN and taking advantage of NATO :)

I doubt that because if we went to war with China or even just became very hostile with them both our economies would suffer a downturn because we are eachother's #1 trading partners.

BigKazWSM747
04-07-2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by supergarr
"People of planet america, it has come to our conclusion, that the inhabitants of venus are harboring martian terrorists and have WMD"

LMAO! :D

irpker
04-07-2004, 08:15 PM
The US is leaps and bounds beyond any nation in the military department, in regards to quantity and quality. If there was a war, China would not even be able to get a plane off the ground due to the USAF's superiority.

BigKazWSM747
04-07-2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by irpker
The US is leaps and bounds beyond any nation in the military department, in regards to quantity and quality. If there was a war, China would not even be able to get a plane off the ground due to the USAF's superiority.

True, of course once we are surpassed in economic development its just a matter of time before the militaries equal out because we have trouble paying for ours and they have more money to spend on theirs. That will most likely be a good while though.

FatFat Bastard
04-07-2004, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by irpker
The US is leaps and bounds beyond any nation in the military department, in regards to quantity and quality. If there was a war, China would not even be able to get a plane off the ground due to the USAF's superiority.

bump
+every great brain china
produces, the USA will purchase...
brain drain will kill the commies...

and china has to way to many people
its hard to run a counrty whith such population cluster.

amrbassiouny
04-07-2004, 08:43 PM
the US is already falling if you can't see that. soon China will come up, and along with China all of Asia will. and after China and Asia the Middleast will rebound and the US will only be something like Europe is now...

FatFat Bastard
04-07-2004, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
the US is already falling if you can't see that. soon China will come up, and along with China all of Asia will. and after China and Asia the Middleast will rebound and the US will only be something like Europe is now...

The so called middleast is laking in 800 years of evolution...
that a tough call.
rebound you need something to rebound from
Africa Cradel of civilization. did not really rebound
so just take it easy.
and enjoy the USA domination.

enjoyincubus
04-07-2004, 09:20 PM
why is it always doom and gloom with you people? and things arent going bad in iraq. you think you because you have no clue what real war is. if you want to see what war is like, read up on ww2, look at the death toll from a civil war in africa, look at the death toll for ww1. we are losing roughly a troop a day. this is bad, dont get me wrong, but if you look back in history, we were having hundreds of people die each day.

Starsky
04-07-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
sure seems like it. we are getting trashed in iraq. sure not by the thousands but 1 everyday sure adds up. we dont even have enough troops over here to compensate, the dollar value is going down, everyone looks blaming us for every wrong in the world. just a thought.


Are you a moron? Doesn't seem like it usually, but this post sure indicates it.


Since when does losing 30 troops in 3 days, constitute losing superpower status. If the US wasn't a humanitarian force, we could simply turn Iraq into a radioactive wasteland. We lost 500x as many in WW2. You think if we had the partisan political media back then, we would have succeeded? No, approval ratings for Roosevelt would drop, and they would probably put an even more liberal appeaser in office.


But luckily, *some* of the American people are resilient enough to not change their minds with each passing week, and no we cannot cut-and-run. We MUST succeed, whether your a liberal or conservative, you cannot start undercutting military campaigns for your own political benefit. Go ahead disagree about Saddam, or domestic issues, but DONT undercut the military campaign. Your only hurting the people who are trying to get the job done.

Whingman
04-07-2004, 11:39 PM
1) china has 4 tiems the population of the U.S, so in relativity china would need to ahve a GDP 4 times greater then the U.S to pass america economically it is currently not even at 100%.

2)In vietnam peopel were killed all the time, it didn't mean the U.S was losign it's super power status, when you go to war peopel die, it happens it does nto consititute a loss in power.

3)Guns and butter, China cannot provide both guns and butter like the U.S can, this is linked to #1

4)Technology, no not all those chinese computer programers, the millitary. The chinese millitary has fairly poor technology
4.1) Weak navy, there navy is dispicable it is not on par with a super power country, it is not on par with lesser powers
4.2) Airfarce, sure its improving...but agian it is not a top 10 air force, and in thsi day and age Air supremacy usually Supremacy
4.3)Cannon foddder, yes thats what there millitary is, its russian style....give a bunch of guys guns and make them rush the enemy, yes it can work.

All in all china is no where near being able to make its calim for numero uno, most millitary anylists will tell you that China couldn't even succesfully invade taiwan as there navy could not transport enough man to even try and make a hodl on the island, the airforce is to week and taiwan's would be able to nock it off quickly and go to work on the navy, un contested from the air.

china is a long ways away from making a bid for number 1, the onyl other possibility is Europe becoming 1 country...they are workign towards it and that to is a long ways off and there is a good chance it may never happen.

As it is right now there is no one ready to step up tot he plate and make the world bi-polar.

LethalOnGuitarZ
04-08-2004, 05:06 AM
Here's my $0.02

I think it is inevitable that the USA will one day not be a superpower anymore. It happens to every great civilization. It doesn't matter if this is the modern era, that doesn't make a difference. Just look at what happened to the Egyptian Empire, the Roman Empire, the Greek Empire, and even the British Empire, at the one point they were all the greatest civilizations in the world, but they all eventually fell.

America has been a world superpower for a long time now, and I think it's time is slowly starting to come to a close. Now it's probably China's turn, yup, the next 100 years are gonna be pretty bleak for us...

JigaroKagan
04-08-2004, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by LethalOnGuitarZ
America has been a world superpower for a long time now, and I think it's time is slowly starting to come to a close. Now it's probably China's turn, yup, the next 100 years are gonna be pretty bleak for us...

If we falter, the world falters, especially in the case of China, therefore America will always be a supreme power. Not only that, but America has an immense advantage in nearly everything. Unlike empires of yesteryear, we will be able to make long strides to secure our power.

Many speak of the Chinese population as a blessing for economic success, but in reality, that's very wrong. They could in no way ever sustain themselves. It is because of this that they're probably one of the most dependant nations in the world. You could have all the money in the world, but in the end, if you're dependant on everyone else, then you're just a pawn in the game of this world.

Let's not even begin on their military, which is laughable. Their densely packed population would only hinder them. Zerg tactics don't win contemporary wars.

amrbassiouny
04-08-2004, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
The so called middleast is laking in 800 years of evolution...
that a tough call.
rebound you need something to rebound from
Africa Cradel of civilization. did not really rebound
so just take it easy.
and enjoy the USA domination.

lol, RE bound, i mean when the muslim/arab civilization was the greatest civilization on the face of this earth. i mean when the arabs were dominating the world. so don't start intimidating me on that.

now let me explain to you why i said what i said. since you don't seem to be smart enough to figure that out yourself.

being egyptian, and living for most of my life in Cairo, Egypt (the rest in california when i was younger and HK where i am now), and being there for around 4 out of 12 months a year at the moment, i know what is going on in there.

the middle east, or the arab countries, are already rebounding. modernization is taking place daily, and each time i go back i can see that difference. new TV stations, new innovations, new ideas, new enterpreneurs...etc.

the middle east has an abundancy of creativity and enterpreaurs. thats a fact which i can prove. all we need is a good governmental structure with good firm laws to allow these young people to release their creativity and grow. another issue is corruption. once corruption can be handled better, and with better laws and gov't, the middle east will fly.

now why do i say first china/asia and then the mid-east and not africa before mid-east?

very simple. africa is still very very low on everything. yes, they have excellent natural resources, but a good base to work on those is far from existant. in fact, countries like egypt, jordan or Lebanon are wayyyyyyy further and muchhh better off than africa, and they already have a much better basis to work on. and when i say basis i refer to a large amount of enterpreneaurs which can push the country forwards. to be honest, my knowledge about Africa is not as detailed as that of the mideast or asia, but i beleive that my current info would be enough to make that judgement.

ironhead31
04-08-2004, 01:59 PM
We are still the Bad asses of the planet when it comes to military power,make no mistake about it. If these cowards would stop hidding behind children,hiding in churches and anywhere else they can sneak attack us then we would blow there **** away. They know the US is not going to send any fire right in the middle of these places. If the US really wanted to I think they could pretty much do as they please. They could have took Iraq out in two or three days if they had really wanted too. But we went over there too weed out the bad not take over.

BuckWyld
04-08-2004, 02:04 PM
Rome was not built in a day, it did not fall in a day either. Personally I see this as the beginning of the end of the American Empire. But I dont think that it will be an overnight transformation, I am not sure if it will even happen in my lifetime. I see the EU becoming more powerful in the future. it is alot like the early USA. I also think china is going to get stronger in the future. For thoes of you saying things like "the world depends on the US" it is not true, we have done little to nothing for the vast majority of people and the world is more than capable of surviving with out the US as a superpower.

LordNeon
04-08-2004, 03:49 PM
No question in my mind. One of the primary reasons we have been the world's #1 superpower for the last 50 years is mostly because we were the only nation that wasn't bombed to $hit after WWII. That's no longer the case now. On top of that:

- globalization is indirectly helping pump up other nations' military power by increasing government revenues,

- the cost of living here is too high for many workers to compete no matter how much crappy treatment and low pay they'll take,

- "brain drain" to the US is slowing - foreign scientists and engineers are no longer flocking to the US like they used to because opportunity exists in their own nations now (and the US has also gotten stricter about visas),

- and lots more - crumbling educational system, indifferent leaders, massive deficit spending, etc.

We may remain strong, but we won't be a superpower for much longer.

enjoyincubus
04-08-2004, 03:55 PM
the u.s. is nowhere near the same as rome or britian because of one little difference....

we have the advantage of history. we can see the symptoms of a falling society, and maybe change it. like your history teacher says, unless you know how to change it, history will repeat itself. well, we have to know how to change it.

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Starsky
Are you a moron? Doesn't seem like it usually, but this post sure indicates it.


Since when does losing 30 troops in 3 days, constitute losing superpower status. If the US wasn't a humanitarian force, we could simply turn Iraq into a radioactive wasteland. We lost 500x as many in WW2. You think if we had the partisan political media back then, we would have succeeded? No, approval ratings for Roosevelt would drop, and they would probably put an even more liberal appeaser in office.


But luckily, *some* of the American people are resilient enough to not change their minds with each passing week, and no we cannot cut-and-run. We MUST succeed, whether your a liberal or conservative, you cannot start undercutting military campaigns for your own political benefit. Go ahead disagree about Saddam, or domestic issues, but DONT undercut the military campaign. Your only hurting the people who are trying to get the job done.

I would have to disagree and say that the media back then was more partisan than it is today. The news media today presents more of the news about what is going on Iraq then the old news stations did on WWII and its much more objective. Just because all of the news is not the way you would like it to be does not mean that the media in general is anti-occupation.

gluon999
04-08-2004, 07:37 PM
I predict that US will no longer be the super power (or the only super power) in the next 50 years. The Europeans are uniting in their hatred for us and the European Union is increasingly competing with us everyday. China also posseses a considerable threat to us in the long run.

Jimineye
04-08-2004, 07:57 PM
The "American Empire" didn't begin until 1945. That's when we became a superpower.

You guys have very little faith in this nation if you think it's going to fall in the next 50 years. We are leaps and bound ahead of other nations militarily, and economically.

If Europe want's to try and compete with us by forming the EU, so be it, we can play hardball too.

Same with China, they depend on us for trade. This nation will not go down without a fight, and if America reign ever comes to an end, I bet the worlds will too.

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
The "American Empire" didn't begin until 1945. That's when we became a superpower.

You guys have very little faith in this nation if you think it's going to fall in the next 50 years. We are leaps and bound ahead of other nations militarily, and economically.

If Europe want's to try and compete with us by forming the EU, so be it, we can play hardball too.

Same with China, they depend on us for trade. This nation will not go down without a fight, and if America reign ever comes to an end, I bet the worlds will too.

well right about when WWI started we were the most powerful nation economically. It was post WWII though where our military and economy were both #1 (although soviets might well have had a better standing force when WWII concluded).

If we go up against the EU and China in trade disputes make no mistake it will be us who is hurt the most. This nation is a consumer nation and we depend pretty heavily on foreign investment and imports.

gluon999
04-08-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye


You guys have very little faith in this nation if you think it's going to fall in the next 50 years.

With a guy like Bush in charge, damn straight I have very little faith in this nation.

With the efflux of jobs and the westernization of countries like China, India, Russia, and the advent of the EU, we are facing some pretty stiff competition.

FatFat Bastard
04-08-2004, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
lol, RE bound, i mean when the muslim/arab civilization was the greatest civilization on the face of this earth. i mean when the arabs were dominating the world. so don't start intimidating me on that.

now let me explain to you why i said what i said. since you don't seem to be smart enough to figure that out yourself.

being egyptian, and living for most of my life in Cairo, Egypt (the rest in california when i was younger and HK where i am now), and being there for around 4 out of 12 months a year at the moment, i know what is going on in there.

the middle east, or the arab countries, are already rebounding. modernization is taking place daily, and each time i go back i can see that difference. new TV stations, new innovations, new ideas, new enterpreneurs...etc.

the middle east has an abundancy of creativity and enterpreaurs. thats a fact which i can prove. all we need is a good governmental structure with good firm laws to allow these young people to release their creativity and grow. another issue is corruption. once corruption can be handled better, and with better laws and gov't, the middle east will fly.

now why do i say first china/asia and then the mid-east and not africa before mid-east?

very simple. africa is still very very low on everything. yes, they have excellent natural resources, but a good base to work on those is far from existant. in fact, countries like egypt, jordan or Lebanon are wayyyyyyy further and muchhh better off than africa, and they already have a much better basis to work on. and when i say basis i refer to a large amount of enterpreneaurs which can push the country forwards. to be honest, my knowledge about Africa is not as detailed as that of the mideast or asia, but i beleive that my current info would be enough to make that judgement.

ok
you are a bit slow
i refered to the fact that Africa
once was a great civilization
but never returned to the same glory.

the same with middle east
with the population grouth, and the doubling rate every 20 years it is imposible to develop properly
they are comiting suicide
this is why in nodern countrys the population grouth is so low
the middle eastern countrys don't seem to realize this.
" new innovations, new ideas, new enterpreneurs" did they descover electricity yet?

anyway rapid population grouth is not a good thing.
remeber: limited resources
If you cant feed the population now, when the population triples
is going to be even harder...

hope you understand
look at the population grouth rates of HK.

CoolBuu
04-08-2004, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by BuckWyld
Rome was not built in a day, it did not fall in a day either. Personally I see this as the beginning of the end of the American Empire. But I dont think that it will be an overnight transformation, I am not sure if it will even happen in my lifetime. I see the EU becoming more powerful in the future. it is alot like the early USA. I also think china is going to get stronger in the future. For thoes of you saying things like "the world depends on the US" it is not true, we have done little to nothing for the vast majority of people and the world is more than capable of surviving with out the US as a superpower.


I agree with most of it, except for when you say that no one relies on us. The fact is is that the United States is the world's largest exporter. Pick up any economics text book and check it out. We make a lot of stuff that people desire and need.

Jimineye
04-08-2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by gluon999
With a guy like Bush in charge, damn straight I have very little faith in this nation.

With the efflux of jobs and the westernization of countries like China, India, Russia, and the advent of the EU, we are facing some pretty stiff competition.


I wouldn't be too concerned with Russia, it seems their "democracy" is going out the door.

China and India are light years behind us though and it would take a lot longer than 50 years to catch us. Since we will steadily be improving.

LordNeon
04-08-2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
China and India are light years behind us though and it would take a lot longer than 50 years to catch us. Since we will steadily be improving.

The only area in which we enjoy that huge advantage is in the military - not in any other area. Their economies are and will be growing at a rate we can only dream of, which is helping them build high-tech, powerful armies. Their general population is growing wealthier and more educated, while we're stagnating in that area. And over time, our military advantage won't be sustainable if that continues.

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by CoolBuu
I agree with most of it, except for when you say that no one relies on us. The fact is is that the United States is the world's largest exporter. Pick up any economics text book and check it out. We make a lot of stuff that people desire and need.

Yes we are a very big exporter (i don't know about largest but I don't doubt it), yet we have a massive trade deficet, so we are importing more than we are exporting. Which is effecting the value of the dollar and numerous other areas.

CoolBuu
04-08-2004, 10:00 PM
True, imports are taking away from the net export part of GDP. BUt the only reason we import is because it is cheaper to get the goods abroad than it is to generate them domestically. There are a lot of economists who say that the budget deficit really isn't a big deal, but I'm not a super-skilled economist (just a kid who enjoys economics).

irpker
04-08-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by CoolBuu
True, imports are taking away from the net export part of GDP. BUt the only reason we import is because it is cheaper to get the goods abroad than it is to generate them domestically..

DING DING DING.

America imports tons of ****, not because she cannot make both guns and butter, it's that other nations have lower opportunity costs, which is the whole point of specialization and trade.

Also, China and India will suffer the wrath of AIDS. It will probably be worse in India, because their government doesn't kill its own citizens for the "greater good."

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by irpker
DING DING DING.

America imports tons of ****, not because she cannot make both guns and butter, it's that other nations have lower opportunity costs, which is the whole point of specialization and trade.


Yes, importing is good as is exporting. But too much a difference between importing and exporting will have effects upon the value of the dollar and exchange rate. Which is something we are starting see by other currencies (esp. the euro) making a lot of progress vs. the dollar.

Starsky
04-08-2004, 11:20 PM
There's a pattern on this thread. Liberals are uncomfortable with US superpower status, and predict it to end rather shortly. Conservatives are very comfortable with it, and predict to last for a long time, provided we have a robust foriegn policy. Which of these two viewpoints is best for the existence of the Republic? You decide.


America was not founded on the principle that Government control and provide everything you do and own. Some have tried to alter the constitution to provide "rights" to healthcare, housing, food, jobs, just about everything. Seriously, can't you guys leave one place in the world alone to be a constitutional republic?? This viewpoint has ruined innumerable countries with otherwise bright futures. Learn from history and if you cant, move to Europe.

BuckWyld
04-09-2004, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by CoolBuu
I agree with most of it, except for when you say that no one relies on us. The fact is is that the United States is the world's largest exporter. Pick up any economics text book and check it out. We make a lot of stuff that people desire and need.

of course other countries rely on us for certain things that does not make us irreplacable.


Originally posted by Starsky

America was not founded on the principle that Government control and provide everything you do and own. Some have tried to alter the constitution to provide "rights" to healthcare, housing, food, jobs, just about everything. Seriously, can't you guys leave one place in the world alone to be a constitutional republic?? This viewpoint has ruined innumerable countries with otherwise bright futures. Learn from history and if you cant, move to Europe.



WTF?? did you even read the thread what are you talking about? At least provide some example/sources to support your crap. what countries/where/when/ by who and how this relates the the discussion at hand

JonZ
04-09-2004, 07:56 AM
I think eventually American will destroy itself.

Martial Law, Civil War and such a few hundred years from now.

Once that happens its all over.

LordNeon
04-09-2004, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Starsky
There's a pattern on this thread. Liberals are uncomfortable with US superpower status, and predict it to end rather shortly. Conservatives are very comfortable with it, and predict to last for a long time, provided we have a robust foriegn policy. Which of these two viewpoints is best for the existence of the Republic? You decide.

Which point of view is "best for the existence" of the Republic? There's optimism and then there's having your head in the goddamn sand. Conservatives WANT to believe in American supremacy for a long time, and simply ignore any indicators that might threaten that impression.

Willie_Bosket
04-09-2004, 09:40 AM
It will be interesting to see what course the world is going to take in the next 50 years.

Starsky
04-09-2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by LordNeon
Which point of view is "best for the existence" of the Republic? There's optimism and then there's having your head in the goddamn sand. Conservatives WANT to believe in American supremacy for a long time, and simply ignore any indicators that might threaten that impression.


Conservatives work to advance and solidify the security and existence of the Republic. Liberals are uncomfortable with Superpower status and want the US reduced to an equal role under an international umbrella.

italian stallio
04-09-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by JigaroKagan
Zerg tactics don't win contemporary wars.

LOL.

Coliones
04-09-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by enjoyincubus
the u.s. is nowhere near the same as rome or britian because of one little difference....

we have the advantage of history. we can see the symptoms of a falling society, and maybe change it. like your history teacher says, unless you know how to change it, history will repeat itself. well, we have to know how to change it.

You forgot one thing you have to know history to pay attention to it. Noone in the gov't paid attention to Iraq in comarison to Vietnam. Noone paid any attention to the deficit when they canceled Clinton's packages etc. That's the problem with allowing uneducated dults run this country. Not a one of them could balance a checkbook but they spend trillions each year on ****ola. As for the fall of the US yeah its happening right now. We have massive corruption in the gov't, the rich run the country with the corp's, and if you read up on history the fall of a country is usually when the poor / underprivelaged / overtaxed become pissed and feed a boot to the arse of gov't and it's supporters.

Starsky
04-09-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Coliones
As for the fall of the US yeah its happening right now. We have massive corruption in the gov't, the rich run the country with the corp's, and if you read up on history the fall of a country is usually when the poor / underprivelaged / overtaxed become pissed and feed a boot to the arse of gov't and it's supporters.


Thats Marxist garbage Coliones. The government has always been corrupt. Right now, the country is extremely prosperous. That line was created by Marx, Hegel, and Engels(having fun in hell guys?) to try to pit the successful against the unsucessful in a bid to create class warfare and start a dumbass revolution, where everyone becomes equally poor and miserable.


The poor are in better shape that is without precedent in world history. You should read how much the average American "poor" household owns, in comparison to other countries middle and upper class(socialist paradise).

LordNeon
04-09-2004, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Starsky
Thats Marxist garbage Coliones. The government has always been corrupt. Right now, the country is extremely prosperous. That line was created by Marx, Hegel, and Engels(having fun in hell guys?) to try to pit the successful against the unsucessful in a bid to create class warfare and start a dumbass revolution, where everyone becomes equally poor and miserable.


Good Lord, you really are brainwashed.

And if you think that what he said was "Marxist garbage", read up more on Rome.

Starsky
04-09-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by LordNeon
Good Lord, you really are brainwashed.

And if you think that what he said was "Marxist garbage", read up more on Rome.


Who is doing the brainwashing Neon? What was false about the statement. Point it out( who cares what your "I heart Karl Marx"
poster reads, ignore it!):)

BigKazWSM747
04-09-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Starsky
There's a pattern on this thread. Liberals are uncomfortable with US superpower status, and predict it to end rather shortly. Conservatives are very comfortable with it, and predict to last for a long time, provided we have a robust foriegn policy. Which of these two viewpoints is best for the existence of the Republic? You decide.


The UK was at one time the most powerful nation on earth, pre-WWI. However, by the time the 60s had arrived their empire had basically dissolved. I can not accurately predict how long we will remain the only superpower but I can predict that eventually we will be rivaled by nation country (most likely China) and eventually like the Romans we will be surpassed.

I will make one bold prediction though, that if nothing is done I see the social security system fiasco as a precursor to our decline.

Coliones
04-09-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Starsky
Thats Marxist garbage Coliones. The government has always been corrupt. Right now, the country is extremely prosperous. That line was created by Marx, Hegel, and Engels(having fun in hell guys?) to try to pit the successful against the unsucessful in a bid to create class warfare and start a dumbass revolution, where everyone becomes equally poor and miserable.


The poor are in better shape that is without precedent in world history. You should read how much the average American "poor" household owns, in comparison to other countries middle and upper class(socialist paradise).

Unfortunately I can't agree. Currently in the USA the middle class and upper class have been slipping downwards and the poor have gotten poorer (In my state median income is $25g, you cannot even own you own home for that little amount of money). Guess who is getting richer .. yup the rich, ultrarich and corporations who polish the knob of fat politicians. I as of now spend almost 50% of what I earn on ****ing taxes. When I first started working it was around 40%. The gov't is taxing us to death and reducing our ability to buy. Corporations in this country have so many known loopholes to escape taxes, so the gov't passes those onto us the tax payer. You start oppressing people enough by stealing their money away they'll get pissed off and rebel, and they rebel against the those who are benefiting from the gov'ts unbalanced taxing.

BigKazWSM747
04-09-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Starsky
The poor are in better shape that is without precedent in world history. You should read how much the average American "poor" household owns, in comparison to other countries middle and upper class(socialist paradise).

In terms of the standard of living you are correct and on that I can agree they are in a better position then they ever have been. However, the income gap between the classes is about as large as it was at the beginning of the 20th century (this is from The American Pagent AP US History book, and it is most likely still the same due to recession, and the lack of jobs that have been created thus far although productivity is up). BTW I am not trying to criticize the economic recovery, as I have a feeling many of you will read it that way. I am just presenting some facts, personally I'm very happy with the way the recovery seems to be going.

LordNeon
04-09-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Coliones
Corporations in this country have so many known loopholes to escape taxes, so the gov't passes those onto us the tax payer.


http://www.detnews.com/2004/business/0404/07/b03-115123.htm

"A majority of U.S. corporations havenít paid income tax in any year since 1989, as they used accounting strategies to duck the 35 percent corporate tax rate, the General Accounting Office reported in Washington."

Starsky
04-09-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Coliones
Unfortunately I can't agree. Currently in the USA the middle class and upper class have been slipping downwards and the poor have gotten poorer (In my state median income is $25g, you cannot even own you own home for that little amount of money). Guess who is getting richer .. yup the rich, ultrarich and corporations who polish the knob of fat politicians. I as of now spend almost 50% of what I earn on ****ing taxes. When I first started working it was around 40%. The gov't is taxing us to death and reducing our ability to buy. Corporations in this country have so many known loopholes to escape taxes, so the gov't passes those onto us the tax payer. You start oppressing people enough by stealing their money away they'll get pissed off and rebel, and they rebel against the those who are benefiting from the gov'ts unbalanced taxing.


You have alot of misplaced anger then. The top 1/2 of wage earners pay 96%+ of income taxes.


Corporations are businesses. Businesses are made up of Individuals. These Individuals are taxed, and their money and used by bureaucrats to distribute to various programs and people.


The Solution is to lower what all Inviduals pay, cutting the supply for the bureaucrats off at the root.

Jimineye
04-09-2004, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Coliones
Unfortunately I can't agree. Currently in the USA the middle class and upper class have been slipping downwards and the poor have gotten poorer (In my state median income is $25g, you cannot even own you own home for that little amount of money). Guess who is getting richer .. yup the rich, ultrarich and corporations who polish the knob of fat politicians. I as of now spend almost 50% of what I earn on ****ing taxes. When I first started working it was around 40%. The gov't is taxing us to death and reducing our ability to buy. Corporations in this country have so many known loopholes to escape taxes, so the gov't passes those onto us the tax payer. You start oppressing people enough by stealing their money away they'll get pissed off and rebel, and they rebel against the those who are benefiting from the gov'ts unbalanced taxing.


That's liberal tax policy right there for you. I don't know where you're getting your figure for the poor and middle class getting poorer. The average income income is $37,500 in the U.S and climbing. How does that equate it to declining?


The rich are overtaxed. You don't like 50% of your check gone, try being rich and seeing 60% going.

BuckWyld
04-09-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
That's liberal tax policy right there for you. I don't know where you're getting your figure for the poor and middle class getting poorer. The average income income is $37,500 in the U.S and climbing. How does that equate it to declining?


The rich are overtaxed. You don't like 50% of your check gone, try being rich and seeing 60% going.

the amout peoples wages have grown in the last 2-3 years is less than inflation, EXECPT the top 1-2% who have seen double diget growth. IMO the rich are being undertaxed.

BigKazWSM747
04-09-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
That's liberal tax policy right there for you. I don't know where you're getting your figure for the poor and middle class getting poorer. The average income income is $37,500 in the U.S and climbing. How does that equate it to declining?


The GDP per capita would be somewhat inaccurate because the poor could stay in the same income range while the rich getting a great deal richer. A lot of the 80s was similar to this. The poor didn't get much richer in terms of income yet the upper classes improved their incomes a great deal.

LordNeon
04-09-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
That's liberal tax policy right there for you. I don't know where you're getting your figure for the poor and middle class getting poorer. The average income income is $37,500 in the U.S and climbing. How does that equate it to declining?


Median income in the US has gone down over the past couple of years. That's a better indicator of whether increases in income are uniform.

mattman
04-09-2004, 05:14 PM
China will pass the U.S. as the world's economic super power no later than 2007. Our U.S. stock market will have a MAJOR crash around 2017-2020 and will not recover for 15-25 years.

dixon
04-09-2004, 06:58 PM
Imagine an "AU" Asian union or something, maybe in 50 years time in the future. Both India and China trading intensively together... that would be one heck of an opportunity for prosperity

JigaroKagan
04-09-2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by dixon
Imagine an "AU" Asian union or something, maybe in 50 years time in the future. Both India and China trading intensively together... that would be one heck of an opportunity for prosperity

An African union is being formed known as the OAU.

gluon999
04-09-2004, 07:13 PM
another reason why US won't be the super power in the next few decades is that the Social Security system is expected to crash around 2020 (sooner than the expected year 2030).

Jimineye
04-09-2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by gluon999
another reason why US won't be the super power in the next few decades is that the Social Security system is expected to crash around 2020 (sooner than the expected year 2030).


And this would make America less of a super power how?

gluon999
04-09-2004, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Jimineye
And this would make America less of a super power how?

uhh, do I have to spell this out for you???

have you heard of Greying of America? more and more of tax payer money is being devoted to the elderly and social security purposes. People are living longer and this is leading to a decrease in the relative productivity per capita. more money being spent on the elderly an healthcare means less money can be spent on other things. what do you think will happen when the elderly don't have any money left for healthcare?

FatFat Bastard
04-09-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by gluon999
uhh, do I have to spell this out for you???

have you heard of Greying of America? more and more of tax payer money is being devoted to the elderly and social security purposes. People are living longer and this is leading to a decrease in the relative productivity per capita. more money being spent on the elderly an healthcare means less money can be spent on other things. what do you think will happen when the elderly don't have any money left for healthcare?

They will just import yeoung people from Britan
Canada
Europe
India
Japan
Chiana
etc...

hovewer you are right it is a global problem
because
you always need larger population to support the riteriment of curent population.

only problem is: limited resuorces.

however eventually, (unless a vaible solution to this problem is created) i think people who reach the age of 65 might just have to be "put to sleep"
no joke
there is really no other way...

The Kurgan
04-14-2004, 04:34 AM
The end of US (and human) supremacy may not be that far away.

http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/archives/021086.html

Welcome to your future. It's not all candy and porn.

The Kurgan
04-14-2004, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
They will just import yeoung people from Britain
Europe
Japan


There aren't enough young people in these countries already.

New York Times 16 August 2019

" Talks between the American, Japanese and EU goverments are expected to close today. This is expected to see an end to "Young Incentives" praticed by richer goverments to try and acquire the young of other countries. Already, despite population growth, an inbalance between the young and old in India has resulted in a strict emigration ban. America, notorious for ignoring any international agreement of any sort that interfers with it's once powerful economy, is expected to deny that this agreement would solve anything. "

The Kurgan
04-14-2004, 04:40 AM
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Another good site.

Canadian Nanook
04-14-2004, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
I doubt that because if we went to war with China or even just became very hostile with them both our economies would suffer a downturn because we are eachother's #1 trading partners.
I'm sorry, I saw this and had to remark because Canada is the US #1 trading partner, and our relations with china are improving, so, if you guys go to war, we get rich :), sweet

Bionik
04-14-2004, 06:35 PM
The US's reign as the #1 superpower isn't even close to decline... I'd give it about 10 years before you saw that happening. The next superpower will be Japan.

Snoopis
04-14-2004, 08:05 PM
Hmm, long thread, many points to make.


I think we will remai a superpower for quite a while, due to two things: the world economy and the information age.

With the world economy, if we are hurting, everyone will hurt with us. Example- due to the value of the dollar dropping, imports from Germany are becoming expensive and we're not buying them. Germany is losing jobs because they have to lower production because we're not buying from them. Don't believe me? Call Germany, ask for the chancellor!

Also, look at the EU. All of them joining together, working together, makes them stronger. Just expand that a little, and you have the world economy, which we're a part of. Strength in numbers, right?

Moving on to the information age, things happen faster than ever, but we know it's happening! Trends are spotted much sooner than they used to be. For example, we used to have frequent depressions, I think it was about every 30 years. Things happen a lot faster now, so you would think we would have more frequent depressions, right? Nope. We catch it during a recession, and straighten it out before it gets too bad.


As for our economy right now, I recently saw one statistic that I thought was really odd, and wondered if someone might be able to explain what it means. The cost of houses and property have risen dramatically over the last 10 years in comparison to income... I don't remember the exact number, but it was something like 5 times faster. BUT, a larger and larger percent of Americans are homeowners. So even though houses are seemingly harder and harder to buy, more people are buying. Any ideas on that one? The first thing I thought of was current interest rates, but this has been happening for too long for that to be a main factor.



Now, out of the frying pan and into the fire...

What would make this country a lot BETTER? Make the point that we are entitled to NOTHING that we haven't earned. No easy way out. No social security, no medicare, no welfare, none of that ****! WOOHA! You think I'm crazy don't ya?

Don't you think people would work harder if they didn't know they had something to fall back on? You shouldn't need medicare, social security, or three generations of your family living in public housing. You should have worked your ass off, invested, and be able to pay for that **** yourself. People don't work too hard because they know the government has their back. Americans are content. SINCE WHEN have Americans been content??? I know you've seen those Avis commercials.

Not only would people work harder, but they'd get to keep more of their hard-earned money because they'd pay less taxes.

A few quotes from the latest Federalist

"An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy; because there is a limit beyond which no institution and no property can bear taxation." --John Marshall ++ "To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." --Thomas Jefferson ++ "If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine ++ "That most delicious of all privileges -- spending other people's money." --John Randolph of Roanoke ++ "To tax the community for the advantage of a class is not protection: it is plunder." --Benjamin Disraeli ++ "A government which lays taxes on the people not required by urgent public necessity and sound public policy is not a protector of liberty, but an instrument of tyranny." --Calvin Coolidge ++"Virtually everything is under federal control nowadays except the federal budget." --Herman E. Talmadge ++ "Before we give you billions more, we want to know what you've done with the trillion you've got." --Les Aspin ++ "The current tax code is a daily mugging." --Ronald Reagan ++ "The Income Tax has made more Liars out of the American people than golf has." --Will Rogers


Ok, I could go on and on about stuff like that, but instead I'll switch to something a little different....

Teach kids what DEBT REALLY COSTS! I don't think people realize what it really costs to carry credit card debt, ridiculous loans, stuff like that. The average Americna has a HUGE amount of debt. And it's worse than just having to catch up, but it costs you at the same time. Some of that isn't too bad, like financing a (reasonable) car or mortgaging a home. But I think we would be a much stronger nation if we could ween ourselves from debt.


Anyway, I'm getting WAY off-topic. Generally, I think we're at a low-point(although I don't think it's as bad as many people say it is), and things will only get better throughout my lifetime.