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Marciano
04-07-2004, 02:10 PM
i saw the movie last night, and i must say, i was really inspiring. i'm not a Christian, but i am very curious about the religion now. I was very moved by the strength and dedication of Jesus, and - this might sound stupid - even found myself thinking about his suffering while pushing myself during training today.

anyways, i had a couple of questions, that maybe some people can answer for me....

1. can anyone explain the trinity to me? I just can never understand how Jesus could be God and human at once. Is this something you have to take on blind faith?

2. Does the bible itself state that Mary was a virgin, or is that part of a later tradition - and if so, how is Jesus descended from David, when Joseph was David's descendant? Also, Mary called Jesus, flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood - does that mean that some of her genes were supposedly transmitted to Jesus, or was she just a vessel to birth Jesus?

3. How is it that Jesus talks to God - wouldn't he be talking to himself?

4. What would a Christian say are the main tenets of Christianity?

5. What are some good sources to read up on Christianity?

Ruthless4Life
04-07-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Marciano
i saw the movie last night, and i must say, i was really inspiring. i'm not a Christian, but i am very curious about the religion now. I was very moved by the strength and dedication of Jesus, and - this might sound stupid - even found myself thinking about his suffering while pushing myself during training today.

anyways, i had a couple of questions, that maybe some people can answer for me....

1. can anyone explain the trinity to me? I just can never understand how Jesus could be God and human at once. Is this something you have to take on blind faith?

2. Does the bible itself state that Mary was a virgin, or is that part of a later tradition - and if so, how is Jesus descended from David, when Joseph was David's descendant? Also, Mary called Jesus, flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood - does that mean that some of her genes were supposedly transmitted to Jesus, or was she just a vessel to birth Jesus?

3. How is it that Jesus talks to God - wouldn't he be talking to himself?

4. What would a Christian say are the main tenets of Christianity?

5. What are some good sources to read up on Christianity?

1.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/son-of-man.html

2. Yes.

http://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/virginbirth.html

3. Perhaps if God wanted to talk to Jesus, Jesus would hear him, and vice versa.

4. Jesus died for our sins.

5. The Bible.

FAQs

http://christiananswers.net/menu-at1.html

MetaPhysical
04-07-2004, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Marciano
i saw the movie last night, and i must say, i was really inspiring. i'm not a Christian, but i am very curious about the religion now. I was very moved by the strength and dedication of Jesus, and - this might sound stupid - even found myself thinking about his suffering while pushing myself during training today.

anyways, i had a couple of questions, that maybe some people can answer for me....

1. can anyone explain the trinity to me? I just can never understand how Jesus could be God and human at once. Is this something you have to take on blind faith?

2. Does the bible itself state that Mary was a virgin, or is that part of a later tradition - and if so, how is Jesus descended from David, when Joseph was David's descendant? Also, Mary called Jesus, flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood - does that mean that some of her genes were supposedly transmitted to Jesus, or was she just a vessel to birth Jesus?

3. How is it that Jesus talks to God - wouldn't he be talking to himself?

4. What would a Christian say are the main tenets of Christianity?

5. What are some good sources to read up on Christianity?

1. The trinity is the belief that even though God is one being, that He is also three divine persons at the same time (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit). Neither one is higher than the others. This is one of the biggest mysteries of Christianity, and it is very difficult for us as humans to grasp this concept since it physicaly doesn't make sense. With regards to the dual nature of Christ, many people tend to forget the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent, thus would it not be possible for God to give Christ humanity and divinity?

2. With regards to the first part of this questions, I personaly don't know if the Bible states whether Mary remained a virgin or not. I think it is generaly accepted by many that she was and had remained a virgin her entire life. This wouldn't be too dificult for her since she was born without sin (immaculate conception. And no the immaculate conception does NOT reffer to Jesus' conception, it is Mary's conception), thus she would not have that temptation that are fallen nature seems to afford us every day. With regards to the second part of your question... I really don't know how to answer this, you would probably have to go on logic here.

3. Jesus speaks to God the father. This really goes back to the whole trinity thing.

4. Hmmmmmmm, well as I know it, the promise of ressurection is one of the foundations of Christianity, and as ruthless said, Jesus died for our sins. You may want to read aout the sermon on the mount, in the gospels.

5. Like ruthless said, the Bible is a good place to start. For me, the catechism of the Catholic church has been an excellent source of information (yes I'm Catholic). Reading it, and learning from it was actualy what solidified my faith, because the reasoning behind much of what is in it is so encredibly sound, and simple... it all just made sense.

If you are interested in taking a look at it, you can read it for free at the vatican website:

http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm

Direct link:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc/index.htm

MAVEN
04-07-2004, 09:27 PM
jesus , lord , and the holy spirit , is the same thing , i know its sounds weird , God sent his son jesus on earth for a period of time , Jesus is God though, it sounds weird sorry im not really makin sense , if u have questions pm or im sure some people will help u out on this thread

JC-orginalbdass
04-08-2004, 07:12 AM
I'm a new Christian, and I've been going to church every Sunday, and bible study on Tuesday nights.
One of the most compelling things about Jesus for me is the fact that never once does Jesus do or say anything to gain personal glory. He CONSTANTLY gives credit to God and says over and over that he does everything for God and to glorify God. He gives credit to his father throughout.
Another thing is this-there were others who claimed to be the messiah, and they were also crucified. Their followers then fled. The same thing happened with Christ, except the main difference is that the followers then saw the risen Christ and came back to spread the word. Even if they didn't, they saw something powerful enough to make them pronounce their faith in Christ knowing that they would be persecuted and possibly killed.
Paul himself had been the biggest persecuter. He helped stone some of Jesus's followers. But, then, he also saw the risen Christ and became the biggest spreader of Christianity.
The main tenet is that Jesus came to let us know that we weren't pleasing God and that we had to change and fast. People at the time thought that if they followed the letter of the law then they were okay, but Jesus said that they had the wrong focus- they must love God with their HEARTS. His message in a nutshell was:
People are sinful and need to be redeemed, and this is your lucky day because I'm here to redeem you even though you don't deserve it, and I have to get the crap kicked out of me to do it.

jake24
04-08-2004, 08:39 AM
i think most of your questions has been answered by other people but there is one thing i would like to say about jesus mother mary it is true the bible says she was a virgin when she gave birth to jesus but some catholics believe she remained a virgin until her death.that is not true jesus had brothers and sisters and plus mary was married to joseph and sex inside a marriage is perfectly fine and some believe that mary was sinless as well she was just like any other human on earth born into sin the bible says there is only one without sin that is jesus christ.the catholic church seems like they practiclly worship mary. that is called idolatry only one person that lived on earth died for sinners that is jesus.there is no need to pray to mother mary.dont get called up thinking about religion christiananity is more about realationship with christ.

egon
04-08-2004, 08:40 AM
if you want some bible reading, read the book of job. it's really inspiring to see one man go through so much, and come out on top. that would have to be one of the best books in the bible imo

jake24
04-08-2004, 08:56 AM
also you said your not a christian but interested about christiananity i will give you a few good reasons to become one i address this to all non christians reading this. i will ask you a couple of questions concerning the 10 commandments.(have you ever lied the bible says that all liers will have thier part in the lake of fire) have you ever stolen the bible says that all thieves will be cast into hell) have you ever lusted that is adultry in gods eyes and no adulter can enter heavan) have you ever used the lords name in vain that is blaspemy)thats just a few of the 10 commandments if god were to judge each one of us by those standards (and he will) would you be innocent or guilty? we all would be guilty you have to be perfect like jesus to go to heavan but that why jesus died on the cross he paid your way! (for example say you murdered someone and the judge gives the death penalty and 100,000 dollar fine but some one you never met walks in the court room and pays your fine for you but you have to let him pay it because you can pay it your self and come up short or let him pay it that what jesus did for us 2,000 thousand years ago.but you have to repent confess your sins and forsake them then god will grant you ever lasting life. the only way to heavan is through faith and repentance toward jesus christ.

dmbfan1
04-08-2004, 09:55 AM
deep thought for the day

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

Doctor Evil
04-08-2004, 10:45 AM
I'm worried. I get told at work that I am Jesus, a) because I kick ass at what I do, and b) because I have a long goatee and long hair. Does that mean I'm gonna die on Good Friday?? :(

JC-orginalbdass
04-08-2004, 11:46 AM
Yes, probably, but don't worry, you'll come back to life on Easter Sunday.

BuckWyld
04-08-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by jake24
also you said your not a christian but interested about christiananity i will give you a few good reasons to become one i address this to all non christians reading this. i will ask you a couple of questions concerning the 10 commandments.(have you ever lied the bible says that all liers will have thier part in the lake of fire) have you ever stolen the bible says that all thieves will be cast into hell) have you ever lusted that is adultry in gods eyes and no adulter can enter heavan) have you ever used the lords name in vain that is blaspemy)thats just a few of the 10 commandments if god were to judge each one of us by those standards (and he will) would you be innocent or guilty? we all would be guilty you have to be perfect like jesus to go to heavan but that why jesus died on the cross he paid your way! (for example say you murdered someone and the judge gives the death penalty and 100,000 dollar fine but some one you never met walks in the court room and pays your fine for you but you have to let him pay it because you can pay it your self and come up short or let him pay it that what jesus did for us 2,000 thousand years ago.but you have to repent confess your sins and forsake them then god will grant you ever lasting life. the only way to heavan is through faith and repentance toward jesus christ.


you do realize that not going to heaven is not a very convincing argument to people who dont believe heaven exists right?

Marciano
04-08-2004, 12:16 PM
i think that's another thing that always turned me off about Christianity - that idea that being a good person wasn't enough, that you have to talk to God and get into Heaven through Christ, that we're covered in sin, and only Jesus can help cleanse us.

matpal
04-08-2004, 12:22 PM
1. God is omnipotent, yes. Jesus was fully man and fully God. It is entirely possible, but that would require a LENGTHY theological response that would fly ove most heads here.

2. Actually, the Bible states contrary to the Catholic position. Mary did in fact have other children with Joseph, and they are listed by name more than once. We know MAry and Joseph had sexual relations from the gospel of Luke. Having sex inside of marriage is not a sin, period. But with holding one's self from a spouse is.

The imaculate conception is also a Catholic tradition that is found nowhere in scripture, but instead is vehimantly denied by the entire Bible and the downfall of man. The document and its writers were put under an ananthema (curse) by the earliest popes. This is instead a sad case of the RCC exalting MAry to an unnecessary position.

5. I would challenge you to read your Bible, cathechism, and the Catholic encyclopedia side by side. Then you can say how logical it is.




Originally posted by MetaPhysical
1. The trinity is the belief that even though God is one being, that He is also three divine persons at the same time (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit). Neither one is higher than the others. This is one of the biggest mysteries of Christianity, and it is very difficult for us as humans to grasp this concept since it physicaly doesn't make sense. With regards to the dual nature of Christ, many people tend to forget the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent, thus would it not be possible for God to give Christ humanity and divinity?

2. With regards to the first part of this questions, I personaly don't know if the Bible states whether Mary remained a virgin or not. I think it is generaly accepted by many that she was and had remained a virgin her entire life. This wouldn't be too dificult for her since she was born without sin (immaculate conception. And no the immaculate conception does NOT reffer to Jesus' conception, it is Mary's conception), thus she would not have that temptation that are fallen nature seems to afford us every day. With regards to the second part of your question... I really don't know how to answer this, you would probably have to go on logic here.

3. Jesus speaks to God the father. This really goes back to the whole trinity thing.

4. Hmmmmmmm, well as I know it, the promise of ressurection is one of the foundations of Christianity, and as ruthless said, Jesus died for our sins. You may want to read aout the sermon on the mount, in the gospels.

5. Like ruthless said, the Bible is a good place to start. For me, the catechism of the Catholic church has been an excellent source of information (yes I'm Catholic). Reading it, and learning from it was actualy what solidified my faith, because the reasoning behind much of what is in it is so encredibly sound, and simple... it all just made sense.

If you are interested in taking a look at it, you can read it for free at the vatican website:

http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm

Direct link:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc/index.htm

matpal
04-08-2004, 12:52 PM
Hi there, and let me congratulate you on your honestly.

1. The Trinity is indeed a fact that must be adhered to in Christianity. If we do not know who Jesus is, we have no right to be called CHristians. You might want to check out the gospel of John, the first chapter. This is an excellent source showing God and JEsus are in fact one. Nothing in Christianity is taken on blind faith! THose who say so do not know what they are talking about, period.

2. Mary was a virgin up until the time Jesus was born, that is fact, not tradition. After His birth, we are told that Joseph took her as his wife, and then he "knew" her, knowing in the contexts means sexual relations. Catholics have made tradition that she was an ever-virgin, but this is just untrue and actually sin if you were married.

Being that Jesus was truly man and truly God, Mary passed on human genes to Him, but God was in fact his biological father, and that is why He is without sin. It is important to remember that the movie was not scripture, and took a few artistic liberties in telling the story.

3. This is better than I can explain: http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_pray_to.htm

4. The main tenatnts of Christianity are: We are all sinners, in need of God's grace to redeem us. Jesus was sent by God to be a sacrificial atonement for our sins. Since He was the only person to be without sin, and he was perfect in God, He is the only one fit to redeem us. Salvation is recieved by Christ, through Christ. Because His righteousness is perfect, we are presented to God as perfect when we accept His righteousness in our place. Depending on who you talk to, there would be more tenants, but those are the ones you should worry yourself with now.

5. This is a great question; there are many false and outright bad teachers out there. 1. DO NOT watch TBN. It is atrocious. You can check out www.carm.org, and look to the left column under questions. Read the Bible. It may be hard to understand at first, but if you ask for insight and understanding, it will be granted to you.

Please let me know if I can be any more help.



Originally posted by Marciano
i saw the movie last night, and i must say, i was really inspiring. i'm not a Christian, but i am very curious about the religion now. I was very moved by the strength and dedication of Jesus, and - this might sound stupid - even found myself thinking about his suffering while pushing myself during training today.

anyways, i had a couple of questions, that maybe some people can answer for me....

1. can anyone explain the trinity to me? I just can never understand how Jesus could be God and human at once. Is this something you have to take on blind faith?

2. Does the bible itself state that Mary was a virgin, or is that part of a later tradition - and if so, how is Jesus descended from David, when Joseph was David's descendant? Also, Mary called Jesus, flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood - does that mean that some of her genes were supposedly transmitted to Jesus, or was she just a vessel to birth Jesus?

3. How is it that Jesus talks to God - wouldn't he be talking to himself?

4. What would a Christian say are the main tenets of Christianity?

5. What are some good sources to read up on Christianity?

JonZ
04-08-2004, 01:07 PM
I also would suggest reading the historical versions of Jesus life and teachings and the origina of Christianity

The Bible has very little to do with the real Jesus and more to do with the creations of Constantine and Paul.

They were written for a Roman audience and edited and can hardy be considered devine.

ITs a FACT newer Gospels have been found that were purposley left out becuase they dont fit into "Romans vision of Christianity"

JC-orginalbdass
04-08-2004, 01:18 PM
Another good thing is to find out if your area has a contemporary Christian radio station. Great tunes and lots of good messages in between the songs.

JC-orginalbdass
04-08-2004, 01:20 PM
That last post was in response to the original question
BUMP
I have a crazy idea-instead of non believers trying to destroy this thread, why don't you not post. We are trying to help the person who started it and keep it focused on the topic. Find another thread where a debate is going on instead of starting one here.
Thanks.

jake24
04-08-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Marciano
i think that's another thing that always turned me off about Christianity - that idea that being a good person wasn't enough, that you have to talk to God and get into Heaven through Christ, that we're covered in sin, and only Jesus can help cleanse us. well the bible says only god is good .in our eyes we are good but we all have broken gods law so if you dont repent you will suffer the consequences.most people dont like to hear that but thats the truth.

jake24
04-08-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by BuckWyld
you do realize that not going to heaven is not a very convincing argument to people who dont believe heaven exists right? the bible says the ones that dont believe are all ready condemed.

matpal
04-08-2004, 02:54 PM
Can you give any proof to back this up??? You have no idea what you are talking about. The Bible was written BY Jews TO Jews. Preaching to the Gentiles was done AFTER the JEWS.

Who edited the books? What proof do you have? Why do not the earliest manuscripts, hundreds of years before Constantine show anything at all to back up your claims??? You have no idea of actaul history.




Originally posted by JonZ
I also would suggest reading the historical versions of Jesus life and teachings and the origina of Christianity

The Bible has very little to do with the real Jesus and more to do with the creations of Constantine and Paul.

They were written for a Roman audience and edited and can hardy be considered devine.

ITs a FACT newer Gospels have been found that were purposley left out becuase they dont fit into "Romans vision of Christianity"

CerealKiller
04-09-2004, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Marciano

5. What are some good sources to read up on Christianity?

Helpful site

http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/christia.htm

JonZ
04-09-2004, 08:05 AM
Matpal,
There are plenty of books about there that go into this stuff. Alot of rethinking has gone into bible study becuae you cant study it in 20 century terms. To the Jews at the time, religion and politics were the same. More and more scholars now believe Jesus was a Zealot. He was born of Royal blood and didnt acknowledge Roman authority (which most christians now do).

How else do you explain the Gospels of Thomas and Mary for example as well as the Nag Hammadi scrolls which were found and are authentic. There is NO disputing these findings. Yet they were left out of the Bible as we know it. WHY?

Yes alot of the documents predate Constantine, but when was the Bible actual belived to be assembled? And for what audience?And how come the religion changed so much around the time of the Counil Of Nicaea? Why did Thomas and others who ACTUALLY KNEW Jesus denounce Pauls teachings?

I know my history well enough thank you. And when u study the relgious AND HISTORICAL you get a better look at the big picture.

While Im not gonna sit here and give u a list of books(I dont think youll read them) if I had to give you one that went into alot of this and breaks it down pretty well, its The Messianic Legacy.

Doctor Evil
04-09-2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by JC-orginalbdass
Yes, probably, but don't worry, you'll come back to life on Easter Sunday.

I rose a bit earlier - the anticipation was killing me :D

matpal
04-09-2004, 10:58 AM
The Gospel of Thomas, as well as the Gospel of Philip, and others in conjunction with the Nag Hammadi are yes, indeed, 1st century documents. What you are failing to realize is they are Gnostic writings that assert to the notion that salvation is obtained through knowledge instead of God, Christ, and Grace. They were written by ordinary men, not apostles or phrophets; they are not divinly inspired, and were considered some of the earliest heresies against Christianity, 250 years BEFORE Rome had anything what-so-ever to do with the CHristian faith. That is why they are not in the Bible, plain and simple. It is quite easy to tell what jives with the cannon and what does not. Tell me, would you include instructions on how to plant a tree in a book about cars?

As far as your study, I would suggest you read some books by some more credible authors. PLease consider Norman Giesler, or Philip Schalff, who are two of the most respected apologists/professors/historians.

As far as the religion "changing" around the councils, it was the concils jobs to refute heresies that were arising at the time, to denounce new ideas that were opposed to the historically accurate faith. Nothing actually changed. what they did was cement things that were in the faith, but all of the sudden being challenged by cults and heretics.

I am not Roman Catholic, if that is what you are implying, and what that church has done and what it claims to be is an entirely different subject.



Originally posted by JonZ
Matpal,
There are plenty of books about there that go into this stuff. Alot of rethinking has gone into bible study becuae you cant study it in 20 century terms. To the Jews at the time, religion and politics were the same. More and more scholars now believe Jesus was a Zealot. He was born of Royal blood and didnt acknowledge Roman authority (which most christians now do).

How else do you explain the Gospels of Thomas and Mary for example as well as the Nag Hammadi scrolls which were found and are authentic. There is NO disputing these findings. Yet they were left out of the Bible as we know it. WHY?

Yes alot of the documents predate Constantine, but when was the Bible actual belived to be assembled? And for what audience?And how come the religion changed so much around the time of the Counil Of Nicaea? Why did Thomas and others who ACTUALLY KNEW Jesus denounce Pauls teachings?

I know my history well enough thank you. And when u study the relgious AND HISTORICAL you get a better look at the big picture.

While Im not gonna sit here and give u a list of books(I dont think youll read them) if I had to give you one that went into alot of this and breaks it down pretty well, its The Messianic Legacy.

BuckWyld
04-09-2004, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by matpal


to denounce new ideas



the catholic church seems to spend alot of time doing this

matpal
04-09-2004, 11:21 AM
I suppose I should have said heresies against Orthodox Christianity. Poor choice of words on my part.

MetaPhysical
04-09-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by jake24
i think most of your questions has been answered by other people but there is one thing i would like to say about jesus mother mary it is true the bible says she was a virgin when she gave birth to jesus but some catholics believe she remained a virgin until her death.that is not true jesus had brothers and sisters and plus mary was married to joseph and sex inside a marriage is perfectly fine and some believe that mary was sinless as well she was just like any other human on earth born into sin the bible says there is only one without sin that is jesus christ.the catholic church seems like they practiclly worship mary. that is called idolatry only one person that lived on earth died for sinners that is jesus.there is no need to pray to mother mary.dont get called up thinking about religion christiananity is more about realationship with christ.

Here we go with the catholic bashing :rolleyes:

Look man, maybe you should educated yourself on some of the Catholic dogmas reguarding Mary... Maybe even check out that link to the Catholic catechism and look it up, instead of spreading your ignorance.

MetaPhysical
04-09-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by matpal
1. God is omnipotent, yes. Jesus was fully man and fully God. It is entirely possible, but that would require a LENGTHY theological response that would fly ove most heads here.

2. Actually, the Bible states contrary to the Catholic position. Mary did in fact have other children with Joseph, and they are listed by name more than once. We know MAry and Joseph had sexual relations from the gospel of Luke. Having sex inside of marriage is not a sin, period. But with holding one's self from a spouse is.

The imaculate conception is also a Catholic tradition that is found nowhere in scripture, but instead is vehimantly denied by the entire Bible and the downfall of man. The document and its writers were put under an ananthema (curse) by the earliest popes. This is instead a sad case of the RCC exalting MAry to an unnecessary position.

5. I would challenge you to read your Bible, cathechism, and the Catholic encyclopedia side by side. Then you can say how logical it is.


Matpal, There are plenty of books about there that go into this stuff. Alot of rethinking has gone into bible study becuae you cant study it in 20 century terms. To the Jews at the time, religion and politics were the same. More and more scholars now believe Jesus was a Zealot. He was born of Royal blood and didnt acknowledge Roman authority (which most christians now do).


Jonz is very correct here that the Bible has been radicaly changed so that people in the 20th century can study it. How can you be sure that what you are studying is correct? The Bible alone can't be a reliable source of study since anyone can interpret it how the please. Also, many valid scriptures have indeed been left out or removed from the Bible ever since its creation. There is no way that every scripture could be in it or we would have tomes upon tomes of scripture that would make up the Bible. Also, newer version (such as the king james Bible) do not have certain books or versus that the new jerusalem Bible contains.

So my point is, please point to which verses in the Bible state that Mary did have children, and I will check it with my Bible to see if it's even in there, who knows one of our versions may have been altered because of popular belief. And with regards to comparing the Bible, and Chatechism.... I bet you havn't even read the Chatechism through cover to cover. Unlike many scriptures which have changed and thus their superficial meanings altered in their interpretaion... the CORE Catholic doctrines, have never changed since the creation of the Church. Popes may have their opinions but they have never changed the doctrines.

matpal
04-09-2004, 02:13 PM
Actually, I have read the Catechism. Quite extensively. Since you are the expert and asset that the core catholic teachings have never changed, please tell me why the Papal decree proclaiming infalliability states that it was "ever understood" by the earliest church, but this has later been corrected in the catholic encyclopedia (www.newadvent.org) to say that this doctine was not present until posibly the 3rd century. How about how the 2 dogams regarding Mary were unanimously rejected by all the popes as heretical, along with the writer until the 4th centurey by pope Galesisus(sp)? Why do we see the Early Church Fathers (ECF) rejecting the notion of purgatory in resounding fashion in the first few centuries?

This is not to be an offense to you, but I find most people who are professing catholics have very little understanding of what their church actually teaches and how they got there.

First off, lets get some common ground. Yes, the Catholic and Protestant Bibles differ. THe Catholic church added the apocraphyl books in 1546 as a means to silent the movement led by Martin Luther and provide support for their practices of prayers to the dead as well as purgatory. Of course, Catholic and Protestant historians will argue on the finer points.

How do you know scriptures have been left out? Did you know that in the Dead Sea Scrolls, we have a virtually intact copy of the OT that is 1500 years old? Do you realize it is 99.7% the same as what we have today? The only differences being in some punctuation and grammar. Please do not confuse scripture with early Christian writings. THere is a huge difference.

Now about Mary and her other kids:

We are told that Joseph "knew her not" until marriage. This is a phrase, in context, to say that he did not sleep with her before marriage, but instead waited until after and after the birth of Christ. So there goes her perpetual virginity as well.

James, the apostle, is referred to as the brother of Jesus numerous times. Catholics will argue that the term for brother actually means cousin, however a close study of the origional greek text easily proves them wrong.

In other places, we are told: Isn't this the carpenter (Jesus)? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph,Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?"

Still: While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

There are quite a few others, but I do not remember exactly where they are. I guess these should suffice for now, anyway.




Originally posted by MetaPhysical
Jonz is very correct here that the Bible has been radicaly changed so that people in the 20th century can study it. How can you be sure that what you are studying is correct? The Bible alone can't be a reliable source of study since anyone can interpret it how the please. Also, many valid scriptures have indeed been left out or removed from the Bible ever since its creation. There is no way that every scripture could be in it or we would have tomes upon tomes of scripture that would make up the Bible. Also, newer version (such as the king james Bible) do not have certain books or versus that the new jerusalem Bible contains.

So my point is, please point to which verses in the Bible state that Mary did have children, and I will check it with my Bible to see if it's even in there, who knows one of our versions may have been altered because of popular belief. And with regards to comparing the Bible, and Chatechism.... I bet you havn't even read the Chatechism through cover to cover. Unlike many scriptures which have changed and thus their superficial meanings altered in their interpretaion... the CORE Catholic doctrines, have never changed since the creation of the Church. Popes may have their opinions but they have never changed the doctrines.

matpal
04-09-2004, 02:15 PM
There is a difference between bashing and trying to teach or get across one's view. I beleive the poster did the latter. If you are wanting to talk about this stuff, you are going to need some thick skin.



Originally posted by MetaPhysical
Here we go with the catholic bashing :rolleyes:

Look man, maybe you should educated yourself on some of the Catholic dogmas reguarding Mary... Maybe even check out that link to the Catholic catechism and look it up, instead of spreading your ignorance.

MetaPhysical
04-09-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by matpal
Actually, I have read the Catechism. Quite extensively. Since you are the expert and asset that the core catholic teachings have never changed, please tell me why the Papal decree proclaiming infalliability states that it was "ever understood" by the earliest church, but this has later been corrected in the catholic encyclopedia (www.newadvent.org) to say that this doctine was not present until posibly the 3rd century. How about how the 2 dogams regarding Mary were unanimously rejected by all the popes as heretical, along with the writer until the 4th centurey by pope Galesisus(sp)? Why do we see the Early Church Fathers (ECF) rejecting the notion of purgatory in resounding fashion in the first few centuries?

This is not to be an offense to you, but I find most people who are professing catholics have very little understanding of what their church actually teaches and how they got there.

First off, lets get some common ground. Yes, the Catholic and Protestant Bibles differ. THe Catholic church added the apocraphyl books in 1546 as a means to silent the movement led by Martin Luther and provide support for their practices of prayers to the dead as well as purgatory. Of course, Catholic and Protestant historians will argue on the finer points.

How do you know scriptures have been left out? Did you know that in the Dead Sea Scrolls, we have a virtually intact copy of the OT that is 1500 years old? Do you realize it is 99.7% the same as what we have today? The only differences being in some punctuation and grammar. Please do not confuse scripture with early Christian writings. THere is a huge difference.

Now about Mary and her other kids:

We are told that Joseph "knew her not" until marriage. This is a phrase, in context, to say that he did not sleep with her before marriage, but instead waited until after and after the birth of Christ. So there goes her perpetual virginity as well.

James, the apostle, is referred to as the brother of Jesus numerous times. Catholics will argue that the term for brother actually means cousin, however a close study of the origional greek text easily proves them wrong.

In other places, we are told: Isn't this the carpenter (Jesus)? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph,Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?"

Still: While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

There are quite a few others, but I do not remember exactly where they are. I guess these should suffice for now, anyway.

Excellent, so you have done your homework and know about our belief in papal infalability. This does not refer to what popes "say". They are only infalable when speaking on matters regarding moral doctrine. This means whatever the pope says, doesnt always mean the Church has to believe it unless spoken ex chatedra. So unless those popes whom declared those dogmas regarding Mary, spoke ex cathedra, what they said really meant nothing.

With regards to the early church fathers and purgatory, I understand that there was a big dispute over its existence, and that dispute is still going strong today. We come back however, to that old papal infalability thing though. Although the church fathers were inspired men, they did not have the same authority that the pope did to speak on doctrine infalably. So whether you they liked it or not they had to believe in purgatories existence.

I have never read the Catholic encyclopedia, but from what I gather, it is an account of history, events, activities, and some information about dogma, used with each other to try to answer some questions. If you would care to expand on the point you are trying to convey about this I am sure I can try to answer the question a bit better.

Now... On to the Mary argument.


James, the apostle, is referred to as the brother of Jesus numerous times. Catholics will argue that the term for brother actually means cousin, however a close study of the origional greek text easily proves them wrong.

In other places, we are told: Isn't this the carpenter (Jesus)? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph,Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?"

Still: While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

I soooooooo saw this coming... The term brother does indeed mean cousin, but despite this fact, your argument is still a strong one. However we have to look at the context in which Jesus speaks about "brothers" and "sisters". When the people told him his mother and brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to him, Jesus replies rather crypticly "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?". There is something very odd about this passage, and you cannot take it at face value. It would actualy seem that Jesus was trying to convey something with his riddle. Many believe that Jesus was trying to express that blood relations are of no significance, and that we are all by virtue of being children of God brother and sister to one another, and to Jesus.

I know that sounds kind of corny, but you need to take more of this stuff in context man. Now if you can point to directly to a passage that says Mary has other children, and doesnt deal with possible metaphors, that would offer a greater chance of convincing me.

matpal
04-09-2004, 06:14 PM
Thank you for your respnse. I know full well about having to speak ex cathedra or "from the chair." Let me ask you, before ex-cathedra was defined, were there ex-cathedra statements? Think about if roses existed before they had names. If a pope or enceumical(sp) council fulfills all of the requirements for an ex-cathedra statement, but it was before the term was in use, they still are ex cathedra statements.

IN a nutshell, to speak ex cathedra, a pope in conjuction w/the council must be binding rules of faith or morals for the entire church. We see this has actually been done numerous times. Most agree the last one was the decree that opposed birth control. So yes, when 2 ex cathedra statements combat each other, such as the office of the pope, you can easily say that infalliability doe not exist.

Can you tell me how many infalliable proclimations have been made? This is something Catholics cannot even agree on. Some apologists say 2 (Marian Dogmas) others say 4 (infalliability and purgatory) and catholic apologist karl keating states 18! What good is infalliability if no one can even define what is infalliable?

My point in bring up the ECF's was that if these things have always been taught and known by the church since the days of the apostles as the church claims, we would not see them differing so much on such important issues. Historian Phillip Schlaff and the Catholic encyclopedia, which carries the seal of the Vatican to be free from doctornal error would be good places for you to read about this. Andi if they "had" to beleive in purgatory as you assert, why did the majority not do so? Because as we know for a catholic to deny dogma is to go to hell, no questions asked.

About the catholic encyclopedia, see above. It carries the seal of the Vatican to be free of teaching error. But then you would wonder why it "corrects" earlier catholic dogmas and beleifs such as the office of the papacy, inspiration in the Bible for purgatory, and rendering of texts such as Genesis 3:15 and Luke 1:28.

About Mary, I do not know if you are familiar with Greek usage and Arameic usage, but if the word cousin was meant to be used, there are 2 much better words that would have been.

as I said, James is referred to the brother of JEsus at least 3 different times in 3 different contexts. I do not have the verses at hand, but they ahould not be hard to find.

the one about Jesus asking who are his mother and brothers....so are you asserting that neither was Mary standing outside? You cannot have one without the other here. His family was in need of him, and he was making a point by saying the family of God is more important than his earthly family.

You may also want to look at the first chapter of Luke where it tells us thet Joseph "knew her not UNTIL marriage." Sex within marriage is a gift from God. For mary to remain a virgin in the context of marriage is absurd. Catholics also contend that even after Jesus's birth, Mary was a virgin in every way. Do you know of a way to birth a child without breaking the hyman of the woman? The gospels tell us nothing in the way of him being delivered out of mary in a miraculous fashion.

I in no way try to undermind your faith. I will say that I have studied Roman Catholic theology, doctrine, dogma, and history extensively, and I still assert that most catholics have little real idea of what and why the beleive what they do. I look forward to hearing your response.


Originally posted by MetaPhysical
Excellent, so you have done your homework and know about our belief in papal infalability. This does not refer to what popes "say". They are only infalable when speaking on matters regarding moral doctrine. This means whatever the pope says, doesnt always mean the Church has to believe it unless spoken ex chatedra. So unless those popes whom declared those dogmas regarding Mary, spoke ex cathedra, what they said really meant nothing.

With regards to the early church fathers and purgatory, I understand that there was a big dispute over its existence, and that dispute is still going strong today. We come back however, to that old papal infalability thing though. Although the church fathers were inspired men, they did not have the same authority that the pope did to speak on doctrine infalably. So whether you they liked it or not they had to believe in purgatories existence.

I have never read the Catholic encyclopedia, but from what I gather, it is an account of history, events, activities, and some information about dogma, used with each other to try to answer some questions. If you would care to expand on the point you are trying to convey about this I am sure I can try to answer the question a bit better.

Now... On to the Mary argument.



I soooooooo saw this coming... The term brother does indeed mean cousin, but despite this fact, your argument is still a strong one. However we have to look at the context in which Jesus speaks about "brothers" and "sisters". When the people told him his mother and brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to him, Jesus replies rather crypticly "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?". There is something very odd about this passage, and you cannot take it at face value. It would actualy seem that Jesus was trying to convey something with his riddle. Many believe that Jesus was trying to express that blood relations are of no significance, and that we are all by virtue of being children of God brother and sister to one another, and to Jesus.

I know that sounds kind of corny, but you need to take more of this stuff in context man. Now if you can point to directly to a passage that says Mary has other children, and doesnt deal with possible metaphors, that would offer a greater chance of convincing me.

beatphats
04-09-2004, 06:24 PM
THIS MOVIE JUST PROVED THAT GOD IS THEE DEADBEAT DAD OF ALL DEADBEATS...

I love what Pachino said about God, "He has good PR." You can never blame him for anything, but it's all good in the hood in the end.

Ha Ha.. Yeah right..

matpal
04-09-2004, 06:30 PM
This post is not debating the existence of God. Please go elsewhere with you trash.

jake24
04-09-2004, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by MetaPhysical
Here we go with the catholic bashing :rolleyes:

Look man, maybe you should educated yourself on some of the Catholic dogmas reguarding Mary... Maybe even check out that link to the Catholic catechism and look it up, instead of spreading your ignorance. i am not bashing anyone just stating that some teachings of the catholic church go against what the bible says.that is the truth whether you like it or not i have respect for catholics exept for a couple false teachings

jake24
04-09-2004, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by beatphats
THIS MOVIE JUST PROVED THAT GOD IS THEE DEADBEAT DAD OF ALL DEADBEATS...

I love what Pachino said about God, "He has good PR." You can never blame him for anything, but it's all good in the hood in the end.

Ha Ha.. Yeah right.. get a life!!!!!!!!

beatphats
04-10-2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by jake24
get a life!!!!!!!!

So emontional...

Faith is so fragile.

matpal
04-10-2004, 03:12 PM
That is why I choose to put my hope in God and His infinite Grace, not myself. He isn't going to let go. ;)

Jcfreak_02
04-11-2004, 02:16 AM
Wow my eyes are tearing up with joy. Keep up the good work fellas.

JonZ
04-12-2004, 07:03 AM
Matpal,
I cant give you direct quotes becase I no longer own the books I got most of my information from. Its hard to remember the names and authors becuase it was abotu 14 years ago I was reading this stuff.I mention Messianic Legacy becuase its one of the few I still own.

My argument is that Rome twisted the Gospels for there own purposes.

Mary Magdelene is a good example here. I believe that Rome and the gospels in the Bible severly downplay her role in Jesus life. The Gospels of Mary shows her to equal to the other apostles and to be considered a favorite of Jesus. There is a power struggle that seems to be going on between her and Peter (I personally belive is most probable that she was Jesus wife as I think Jesus, a Rabbi and teacher was married)

Yet Rome and most Catholics see her as a prostitute and a groupie


While your right that the gospels were written before Constantine and before Rome accepting Christianity as the official religion, that doesnt mean that WAS written hasnt been altered to suit Roman needs.

Ill use my example of Sol Invictus, which as you know is the worship of the sun, which was Constantines faith - he was not a Christian (although he was baptized while dying I belive).

Again to those at the time religion and politics were the same and in a effort at unity and blurring the differences between relgions, he messed alot of things together. The Sol Invictus day of rest was abopted to the Christian faith. Jesus borthday is I belive Jan6 not Dec 25 , which is actually a Sol Invictus holiday, the biggest of the year.

Again what was written is always open to interpretation. And theres alot of mistranlating going on as well.
Some scholars say Jesus of Nazareth is a mistranslation from Jesus the Nazarene which was a sect at the time not a town as Nazareth doesnt appear on any maps at the time of Jesus life. Sampson was a Nazarene.

I dont put alot of credibility in the Gospels. To me,the most accurate is probally Johns, which I think was the last one written.It also differs the most fromt he others.

Its true, the Hidden Gospels differ in that they dont rely on the resurrection as salvation, but thats exactly my point - that THAT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN JESUS ORIGINAL MESSAGE. I find it interesting that supposedly Thomas, Lazarus(who I also belive was a apostle and had his role downplayed in Jesus life) and the Nag Hammdi all come from Eygpt. Even the Spear of Destiny , which pierced Jesus side ended up there.I think Eygpt became a haven for the "true" followers of Jesus.

I think Jesus was a Zealot who wanted the Jews to be free of Roman rule. His message was political and religious. I dont think he performed miracles and he didnt rise fro the dead.

That doesnt mean that his message isnt important and that it is meaningless. If it can make the world a better place and the philosophy holds wisdom it is worth considering.

I just think the words are more important than the man (to steal a phrase from Star Trek)


My facts may very well be off a bit as its been a long time and as I said I have to do this from memory as I no longer have the books Ive read this stuff in. I spent a long time reading this stuff and it lead me to conclude that ALL relgion is mythology.


As for the Pope being infallible. On December12, 1984 the Los Angels times quoted the POPE as saying, "" DO NOT GO TO GOD FOR FORGIVENESS OF SIN, COME TO ME"

The Popes past has come under alot of critisicm in recent years.You'll love this....."From Behold A Pale Horse"

"In the early 1940's, a young Polish salesman, employed by I.G. Farben Chemical Company (manufacturer of cyanide gas) sold cyanide to the Nazis, for use in Auschwitz. He also worked as a chemist manufacturing the cyanide gas that exterminated millions of Jews and other peoples in the very heart of the Auschwitz extermination camp. Fearing for his life after the war, he took refuge in the Catholic church and was ordained a priest in late 1946. In 1958, he was ordained Poland's youngest bishop. After the thirty day reign and assassination of his predecessor, he assumed the papacy as Pope John Paul II"

The Kurgan
04-12-2004, 12:19 PM
I saw the film. I wasn't too keen on it- I don't like blood and guts and death in films, unless it's really REALLY necessary to the storyline.

Joshua_H
04-13-2004, 03:38 PM
Christianity in a nutshell...

God created the earth and man sinned therefore he had to die... In order for man to go to heaven he had to follow rules and regulations allocated by God and sacrifice a blameless animal(usually a lamb) for atonement of his sin regurally. During this time it was prophesied that a Messiah would come to save the human race.(Jewish Faith), then Jesus(The Son of the living God, the Messiah) came and was "sacrificed" on the cross(as you saw in the movie). He was a sinless man, who did not deserve to die, you could say he was the lamb of God, the ultimate perfect sacrifice. So basically he paid the penalty for our sin, so if we believe in him God the father sees us as sinless and we are able to enter heaven. In order to receive the forgiveness that Jesus provided we simply have to believe that he is who he said he was. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that for if (your name here) believes in him he shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

If I missed anything or you have any questions e-mail me, thanks. joshua_horn@hotmail.com