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amrbassiouny
04-06-2004, 03:55 AM
here, download this.

http://hkusua.hku.hk/~h0360593/videofiles/The_Quran_and_Modern_Science.pdf

this is basically proof that the Quran already has some serious mircales in it and nobody (after reading this) can deny. and since the quran has been proven to be correct and purely God, hence the bible and torah are also true (Muslims concider themselves as the "third and last" of the three great religions, though of course God has sent millions of religions throughout our existance, though only these three have survived to be this big. its all one God, though each book has always been corrupted, and so came the Quran to be the end of it all, the only book which would never corrupt).

if you want to check the validity of this and make sure the translation is correct, go to http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm where you will find the translation there right next to the real arabic text. i've personally checked this translation and it is 100% correct, though always read the footnotes because there are always things which you don't know that are usually referred to or talked about, that can seem to be something else. so stick to the footnotes. DON'T buy the penguin published version of the Quran, its FULL of bull****, if i only i found the guy who wrote that....

MetaforeX
04-06-2004, 05:13 AM
Weak.

Space outside astronomical systems was earlier assumed to be a vacuum. Astrophysicists later discovered the presence of bridges matter in this interstellar space. These bridges of matter are called plasma, and consist entirely of ionized gas containing equal numbers of free electrons and postive ions. The Qur'an mentions the presence of this interstellar matter in the following verse "He who created the heavens and the earth and all that is inbetween. It would be ridiculous for anyoen to suggest that the presence of interstellar galactic material was known 1400 years ago.
Why would you accept such evidence?

supergarr
04-06-2004, 05:38 AM
hehe
The Quraan contains the following verse, regarding the origin of the universe: Do not the Unbelievers see That the heavens and the earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? [Al-Quraan 21:30]

The striking congruence between the Quraanic verse and the Big Bang is inescapable! How could a book, which first appeared in the deserts of Arabia 1400 years ago, contain this profound scientific truth?

ya, i don't get this one. and its only the beginning of the file

amrbassiouny
04-06-2004, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by MetaforeX
Weak.

Space outside astronomical systems was earlier assumed to be a vacuum. Astrophysicists later discovered the presence of bridges matter in this interstellar space. These bridges of matter are called plasma, and consist entirely of ionized gas containing equal numbers of free electrons and postive ions. The Qur'an mentions the presence of this interstellar matter in the following verse "He who created the heavens and the earth and all that is inbetween. It would be ridiculous for anyoen to suggest that the presence of interstellar galactic material was known 1400 years ago.
Why would you accept such evidence?

THATS THE WHOLE POINT!!!! lol, if you didn't realize, this is where the miracle is!! how could you miss that?

why would i accept this evidence? very simple. when you have an illiterate man who lived all his life in a cave and worked as a servant and trader, come up and tell everybody about interstellar matter and microscopic details of pregnancy (along with democracy, slave abolition and women's rights for the first time in known history)...now that tells me there is some kind of supernatural intervention here.

the whole point of the Quran being "special" is that is was revealed by God himself. Mohammed didn't write it, mohammed has his own books called the "hadith." the Quran is purely God. it was just sent through the angel Gabriel and to Mohammed. and this book has been the same and its physically impossible for it to have changed any time in the past 1000 years (and i can prove that it wasn't changed when it was being compiled after the prophet's death also), meaning that either mohammed was a wierd genious with supernatural powers (which i doubt) or God sent this as proof in his book. and it is proof enough for me...

i mean, honestly, what more would i want?


Originally posted by supergarr
hehe
The Qur�aan contains the following verse, regarding the origin of the universe: �Do not the Unbelievers see That the heavens and the earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?� [Al-Qur�aan 21:30]

The striking congruence between the Qur�aanic verse and the �Big Bang� is inescapable! How could a book, which first appeared in the deserts of Arabia 1400 years ago, contain this profound scientific truth?

ya, i don't get this one. and its only the beginning of the file

let me explain. the word "heavens" is used many times in the Quran, and a lot it is used to mention "the sky" or "space" rather than the heaven where you will go to when you die (Which could very well be the same place...but i doubt that). so it is saying "the earth and space, i.e. the universe as a whole, were joined together in one piece. and then we 'broke them apart' or 'burst them apart.'" and then the verse continues with another miracle "and we made everything alive with water" (but this part is irrelevent).

now to go back to the science of this, the big bang has some very strong proof to support it, though of course it is not 100% proven yet, we need more time and science! but what science says is that the universe is expanding gradually. everything is moving farther away from each other gradually. so, imagine a baloon, getting bigger, and bigger. now, think of that as a video of a baloon. now, press pause. then rewind. what do you see? the balloon will get smaller, and smaller, until it will become a dot. and then? nothing. it will be one tiny peice. what before this? nothing. so this is what this verse is explaining, the history of the universe.

BigKazWSM747
04-06-2004, 08:36 AM
All I have to say is free will and divine intervention don't jive. And if you compromise free will then God being all-good collapses on itself due to the way this world is, or at least your picture of all-good.

amrbassiouny
04-06-2004, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
All I have to say is free will and divine intervention don't jive. And if you compromise free will then God being all-good collapses on itself due to the way this world is, or at least your picture of all-good.

who ever said that was the case? Islam suports your view. Why would God put us on Earth if he will control us in every way? it is illogical. there, as the Quran says, God tells us all "ok, here, you have your choice, good and evil. you have your own will, and you will do what you want. if you go towards evil, then let it be, but wait for your punishment in hell. and if you go towards good, then let it be, and wait for your reward in heaven." its like a test. does the examiner ever come in and start changing the questions or messing around with your answers while you are in the middle of test? nope. he gives it to you nice and blank, you choose right and wrong, and he grades it, and then decides wether you shall pass or not.

and also in terms of evolution and creationism, one can still in a way make Islam compatible with evolution! thats why i love it so much, its so damn logical and good when it comes to reality. it is very in-tune with reality, and so i never find it hard to fit it into our world today, and especially science. yes, the story of adam and eve does exist, but, did you ever concider this story as being more of a metaphorical one than a real one? maybe there really was an adam and eve! just that they were the first "batch" of humans that changed from apes. why not? God seems to have "made" everything. and it all happened in a very natural and logical order. it seems that God just made the big bang, and then from that bang everything was planned to happen. and it did. the universe expanded, earth was created from the rubble, the sun shone on it, life emerged, animals evolved, and then humans came into existance. it is very logical to think of it that way. God also said he created the sky. but does that mean he physically put it there? or can it mean that God maybe started the big bang, and then knew that the sky would creat itself after that bang happened in a certain way? therefore, at the end of the day God can still say "I created the sky."

let me simplify this. lets try and think of it in a much easier way. lets say you are God. for example. and you know that you can create a universe from nothing. and you know that if you fix that explosion to the billionth of a billionth of a decimle, that many solar systems will be created, and in one of those there will be a planet like earth which will be created, and then from that life will emerge, and after millions of years humans will evolve. now, if you say "i created earth." are you wrong? of course not, you can say that. can you say "i sent the humans to earth" of course you can! you were the reason for them being there in the first place, and you knew it would happen. therefore, God might not mean everything in a literal sense as in "I physically put you down on earth" but He might really be saying "I am the reason for you being there."

as i said, God is a logical being. and if it is illogical, then it is not part of what God said. and the Quran seems to be fully logical (unlike the bible which says that the universe was created 5000 years ago or something, illogical).

Ragnarok
04-06-2004, 08:59 AM
I second that. Free-will and divine intervention do not mix. I'm not familiar with the Quran, but assume it contains many of the same ideas contained in other religious texts.

I think Stephen Hawking said it best in his second book. He stated that it seems that if God does exist, he has chosen to constrain himself within the physical laws of the Universe, and it would therefore seem that it would leave very little for God to do.

Secondly, following Metaphysics, there is no proof or assumption that nothing existed before the big bang. One of the prevailing theories at this point is that the Universe is expanding, and eventually will begin to collapse, falling back to the "point of singularity", and which point, the process will start all over again.

The final question I have is WHY is there always some statement contained in every religion where God basically says, follow me and you will attain enlightenment, reach heaven, etc. but if you DON'T follow me, you will end up in hell, or be returned to Earth as a lower form (depending on which religion). Why is there always some evil punishment that we are threatened with unless we follow a particular God?

MetaforeX
04-06-2004, 09:13 AM
I don't have time to get into a theological debate. But you're making something of nothing. I could decipher truths of modernity out of 1800s slave ship records if I wanted. And as a clarification, no Muhammad did not live in a cave. He didn't write the Hadiths, they were written about what he did.

marek
04-06-2004, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by MetaforeX
I don't have time to get into a theological debate. But you're making something of nothing. I could decipher truths of modernity out of 1800s slave ship records if I wanted. And as a clarification, no Muhammad did not live in a cave. He didn't write the Hadiths, they were written about what he did.

i agree, religious writings are just what the reader wishes to interput them as(called faith) but mostly read with their biases and agendas.

Canadian Nanook
04-06-2004, 11:43 AM
I don't necessarily agree that it's only in the Quaran, sorry if i spelled it wrong, because in the torah there is also a code, they put together all the letters of the torah into one really long word and scanned it through a computer, they then typed in the names of important people, like Yitzhak Rabin and found out stuff about them, they typed Rabin in and it crossed with "will be murdered" they then typed in the name of his assassin, Yigal amir and it crossed with " the murderer who will murder"
Creepy ****

designedmind
04-06-2004, 01:04 PM
Hahahahahahah the big three because they are the only ones to endure and have such a population.


oh, yea, right.. like jews ever constituted a sizeable portion of the world's population.


and what about hinduism? ( a BILLION believers )


ignorance prevails....



not bashing your religion, just your statements =)

BigKazWSM747
04-06-2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
who ever said that was the case? Islam suports your view. Why would God put us on Earth if he will control us in every way? it is illogical. there, as the Quran says, God tells us all "ok, here, you have your choice, good and evil. you have your own will, and you will do what you want. if you go towards evil, then let it be, but wait for your punishment in hell. and if you go towards good, then let it be, and wait for your reward in heaven." its like a test. does the examiner ever come in and start changing the questions or messing around with your answers while you are in the middle of test? nope. he gives it to you nice and blank, you choose right and wrong, and he grades it, and then decides wether you shall pass or not.

and also in terms of evolution and creationism, one can still in a way make Islam compatible with evolution! thats why i love it so much, its so damn logical and good when it comes to reality. it is very in-tune with reality, and so i never find it hard to fit it into our world today, and especially science. yes, the story of adam and eve does exist, but, did you ever concider this story as being more of a metaphorical one than a real one? maybe there really was an adam and eve! just that they were the first "batch" of humans that changed from apes. why not? God seems to have "made" everything. and it all happened in a very natural and logical order. it seems that God just made the big bang, and then from that bang everything was planned to happen. and it did. the universe expanded, earth was created from the rubble, the sun shone on it, life emerged, animals evolved, and then humans came into existance. it is very logical to think of it that way. God also said he created the sky. but does that mean he physically put it there? or can it mean that God maybe started the big bang, and then knew that the sky would creat itself after that bang happened in a certain way? therefore, at the end of the day God can still say "I created the sky."

let me simplify this. lets try and think of it in a much easier way. lets say you are God. for example. and you know that you can create a universe from nothing. and you know that if you fix that explosion to the billionth of a billionth of a decimle, that many solar systems will be created, and in one of those there will be a planet like earth which will be created, and then from that life will emerge, and after millions of years humans will evolve. now, if you say "i created earth." are you wrong? of course not, you can say that. can you say "i sent the humans to earth" of course you can! you were the reason for them being there in the first place, and you knew it would happen. therefore, God might not mean everything in a literal sense as in "I physically put you down on earth" but He might really be saying "I am the reason for you being there."

as i said, God is a logical being. and if it is illogical, then it is not part of what God said. and the Quran seems to be fully logical (unlike the bible which says that the universe was created 5000 years ago or something, illogical).

Islam accepts miracles. I don't think free will and miracles go together. As for a specific very important one, Mohammed ascending into heaven with the angel Gabriel from what is now today the Dome of the Rock.

Also please point out to me where it says in the Bible exactly when the universe was created? Becuase i've never heard anyone say that ever nor have ever read it.

AnotherScorpion
04-06-2004, 04:07 PM
It's a real miracle!! The earth is flat according to koran

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by AnotherScorpion
It's a real miracle!! The earth is flat according to koran


:D

you serious?!

where in Quran exactly?!

nitr0x
04-06-2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
:D

you serious?!

where in Quran exactly?!

He was trying to be funny

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by nitr0x
He was trying to be funny


oh phew
cause I was planning to reject my faith :D

thanks ;)

amrbassiouny
04-06-2004, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Ragnarok
The final question I have is WHY is there always some statement contained in every religion where God basically says, follow me and you will attain enlightenment, reach heaven, etc. but if you DON'T follow me, you will end up in hell, or be returned to Earth as a lower form (depending on which religion). Why is there always some evil punishment that we are threatened with unless we follow a particular God?

maybe because its all ONE God and He always says the same stuff over and over again and we are all too ignorant to realize that?


Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Islam accepts miracles. I don't think free will and miracles go together. As for a specific very important one, Mohammed ascending into heaven with the angel Gabriel from what is now today the Dome of the Rock.

Also please point out to me where it says in the Bible exactly when the universe was created? Becuase i've never heard anyone say that ever nor have ever read it.

1) God wants to send a message across. The Quran was not free will. It was a miracle itself (the whole point of this thread!), so, can you say that the Quran does not exist? If the Quran is a miracle sitting right infront of your eyes, how can you deny anything written inside of it? very hard to know really, but some things are just logic.

2) Matthew, chapter 1. first part of the new testament. it gives a historical record of all the generations leading to Jesus. after historians calculated how many generations back that goes, they realized it only went back to 5,000 years old. to be honest i can't remember exaclty how it was done, but if you search a little on yahoo or google i'm sure you'll find lots about this. and its very accepted by christians so its no offence for me to say that.



Originally posted by
designedmind
and what about hinduism?

and what about bob? (i had to say that hehe)

Hinduism seems not to follow the "trend." i can talk about hinduism (which i've already looked into and i find it very interesting). i came to some vague conclusions that hinduism is very related to the "big three" religions in some ways. one example is the story of the prophet Moses, which is very very similar to another story of one of the times the Hindu God came to Earth (Hindus beleive in one God, but then they think that he came down to earth many times in the past as a "reincarnation" to teach us the religion and all that). i can't remember the exact reincarnation it was, but i can also ask for you (a whole group of my close friends are hindu/indian, so i'm very involved in these discussions all the time).

i don't deny hindusim being a big religion or any of that, but it seems to have deviated from the main course a bit too much for me to be able to look at it in the same way i'd look at judaism christianity and Islam.

God in the Quran says that he sent millions and millions of religions of history, and not all of them are mentioned in the Quran. God also sent prophets all over the place all the time in history and only a few of them are mentioned in the Quran bible and Torah. hence it does not rule out that there could be other "great" religions which stemmed from his prophets. so why doesn't he mention hindusim? thats because the Quran was directed at Muslims at a certain time and place. these muslims were closely related to and were always in contact with mainly jews, christians and pagans. hence hinduism was out of the picture and it would be irrelevant for God to talk about them as much as He talked about the Jews and Christians.

get the idea? so its not really ignorance, its just you don't understand the context of all religions and the big picture is very hard to form since it is so damn big and complicated.


Originally posted by MetaforeX
no Muhammad did not live in a cave. He didn't write the Hadiths, they were written about what he did.

before he came out with the Quran he was known to stay at a cave lots of the time. i'm sorry if i had exxagerated it a bit, but yes he didn't really live in a cave. but many people at the time did.

and the hadith. lol, the prophet couldn't read or write. so he just assigned people around him to write down everythign he said or did. so, technically, its HIS book. its like for example if i ask you to type a story for me and i just read it out for you to type. who wrote the book? you or me? who gets the credit? you or me? of course, the author.

now, let me ask you a question, did you read that file i put up there? if not, then start posing once you do. if you want to start another debate about something else then feel free to start another thread. lets keep this thread about this proof i've put here.

FatFat Bastard
04-06-2004, 08:24 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by amrbassiouny
[B]THATS THE WHOLE POINT!!!! lol, if you didn't realize, this is where the miracle is!! how could you miss that?

why would i accept this evidence? very simple. when you have an illiterate man who lived all his life in a cave and worked as a servant and trader, come up and tell everybody about interstellar matter and microscopic details of pregnancy (along with democracy, slave abolition and women's rights for the first time in known history)...now that tells me there is some kind of supernatural intervention here.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

lived in a cave? hahaha
does the name Waraqa ibn Naufa(christian)
ring a bell?
most of the revalations relate to the times and breaking events in Muhamads life. which makes perfect sense.
muhamad was surronded by a large jewish population in the time it seems they had a lot of impact on his views.

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/

i belive old testemant copied old historical rituals of differnt people, christians copied this and reshaped it, quaran copied the judo-christian virsion in reshaped it.

they all improved on the privious, not quistion, but they are all old and the world has moved on.
sometimes you need to let pride and ignorece go,
and take the best of ideas from those books, apply them and look forward not backward. religion has positive ideas but can cause a... lot...of problems due to human nature.
so religion should be viewed from a historical point
not by associating it with god. (does not make sense)
and is dangerous because you can justify anything using the religious gods.

BTW were did you take the idea of Islam=abolishment slavery?
bro you should read this
http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa040201a.htm
so now you know the reality..

BigKazWSM747
04-06-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny

1) God wants to send a message across. The Quran was not free will. It was a miracle itself (the whole point of this thread!), so, can you say that the Quran does not exist? If the Quran is a miracle sitting right infront of your eyes, how can you deny anything written inside of it? very hard to know really, but some things are just logic.

2) Matthew, chapter 1. first part of the new testament. it gives a historical record of all the generations leading to Jesus. after historians calculated how many generations back that goes, they realized it only went back to 5,000 years old. to be honest i can't remember exaclty how it was done, but if you search a little on yahoo or google i'm sure you'll find lots about this. and its very accepted by christians so its no offence for me to say that.


If the Quran denies free will then it brings the question of why is the world the way it is today? Whereas the Islamic utopia would not resemble today's world at all. If Allah represents total virtue or good then why does he tolerate the existence of so much evil?Especially since free will doesn't exist or so it is claimed.

If free will is considered important then why does Allah interfer with free will by having the muslims triumph over the infidels? And then why do the "infidels" still triumph over the muslims? (if it doesn't exist)

BTW Matthew only traces Jesus back to Abraham, I checked.

FatFat Bastard
04-06-2004, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
If the Quran denies free will then it brings the question of why is the world the way it is today? Whereas the Islamic utopia would not resemble today's world at all. If Allah represents total virtue or good then why does he tolerate the existence of so much evil?Especially since free will doesn't exist or so it is claimed.

If free will is considered important then why does Allah interfer with free will by having the muslims triumph over the infidels? And then why do the "infidels" still triumph over the muslims?

BTW Matthew only traces Jesus back to Abraham, I checked.

good arguments bro
this is exactly why religion does not make to much sense for me

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 08:40 PM
FatFat
you can't use a group of people as an example of a religion.
The only way to prove your point, would be to bring quranic verses either showing Islam promoting slavery or accepting it.

Other than that, I agree. Quran, Bible and Torah do share alot of history. but that doesn't mean that they all copied each other.

If that's the case, and based on your previous, everything goes back to Zoroastrian religion, which you believe is man made, right?

FatFat Bastard
04-06-2004, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
FatFat
you can't use a group of people as an example of a religion.
The only way to prove your point, would be to bring quranic verses either showing Islam promoting slavery or accepting it.

Other than that, I agree. Quran, Bible and Torah do share alot of history. but that doesn't mean that they all copied each other.

If that's the case, and based on your previous, everything goes back to Zoroastrian religion, which you believe is man made, right?
even before
way before
don't get me wrong .
religious books record history
take moral parts
promote good morals
not promote bad morals
threaten bad morals with a religious god(pain/punishment/hell)
promote good morals with (heaven/verigins/torah/family/chance to meet god).
they are ...esenseal... for the creation of society
ex golden age of Islam... great, moral society based on quaran..
now you put quaran in a nice safe box and build you society from there.
don't go back and start building it from the quaran again!!!
it beats the purpose of it in the first place.

i hope you agree.
its a foundation you evolve from threir and not try to go back in time. (turkey)
aphganistan has gone back in time.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 09:04 PM
I understand your point of view

I agree to some extend.

I think if people have lost the direction to build a society, they need to go back and look at what it's built on.
I don't think you should put it in a box and lock it and throw the key away.

to build your future you need to know your past.

bts327
04-06-2004, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard

they are ...esenseal... for the creation of society




If these things are essential for the creation of a society then how can their be chimpanzees living in Africa within a tight social structure or group? Isnt this technically a society? Surely they dont have these things.

These things may be essential for the creation of a society based upon their principles, but that is all.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by bts327
If these things are essential for the creation of a society then how can their be chimpanzees living in Africa within a tight social structure or group? Isnt this technically a society? Surely they dont have these things.

These things may be essential for the creation of a society based upon their principles, but that is all.


so you see champanzees and humans on the same level?

bts327
04-06-2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
I think if people have lost the direction to build a society, they need to go back and look at what it's built on.
I don't think you should put it in a box and lock it and throw the key away.

to build your future you need to know your past.


Perhaps. I happen to think that a society would form regardless of effort put forth "building". Then with the right minds leading the way, observation upon the present would lead to decision on the right course of action to take for the future, regardless of past. It wouldnt happen over night, but in time.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by bts327
Perhaps. I happen to think that a society would form regardless of effort put forth "building". Then with the right minds leading the way, observation upon the present would lead to decision on the right course of action to take for the future, regardless of past. It wouldnt happen over night, but in time.

you used the word right twice.

that word is what causes the problem. right based on whose basis.

who has the right mind?
who would decide the right direction?

bts327
04-06-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
so you see champanzees and humans on the same level?

The simple answer being...no, of course not. The point was that there exists society/ies free of idea. They may not exist at the human "level" but that doesnt make them any less social.

bts327
04-06-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
you used the word right twice.

that word is what causes the problem. right based on whose basis.

who has the right mind?
who would decide the right direction?

Good point.

You are "right" :D. I guess I should have worded it differently. Hmmm... I guess that there would have to be a group effort.

I guess what I meant by "right minds" are people who place the interests of the whole society before their own and act accordingly.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by bts327
The simple answer being...no, of course not. The point was that there exists society/ies free of idea. They may not exist at the human "level" but that doesnt make them any less social.


ok true.

so maybe FatFat must have mentioned, it is essential for a human society. right?

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by bts327
Good point.

You are "right" :D. I guess I should have worded it differently. Hmmm... I guess that there would have to be a group effort.

I guess what I meant by "right minds" are people who place the interests of the whole society before their own and act accordingly.


hard to find a group like that.
since that's against human nature.

but that is exactly what's taught by religions :P

bts327
04-06-2004, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
ok true.

so maybe FatFat must have mentioned, it is essential for a human society. right?

Now that I am thinking about it, that is a tuff question to answer.

Essential? Maybe, but this lends itself back to what you said about who is to decide who or what is right. Because someone or some group would need to decide upon the "right" essentials to be set forth. These essentials will probably differ from someone elses and then there will be war. You dont want that unless your a nutjob. So this presents a very big problem, because the society of war I cant see anyone truly enjoying, but.

Is it possible to be free of the "essential"? Is it possible to be free of these "ideas" which we would form the essentials? Isnt the notion of being free of idea an idea within itself? In the current situation, which is the only realistic way to view it, then I guess that I would have to say that they are not so much neccesary as they are "there" regardless. So we have to deal with them.

Is there a way to form all into one? So there is no opposition. Isnt this in itself an idea to be opposed by somebody?


Now Im rambling...sorry.

FatFat Bastard
04-06-2004, 09:41 PM
the.. right.. based on what is around you
use religion as foundation not as the purpose of society. based on religion not for religion.

Then with the right minds leading the way, observation upon the present would lead to decision on the right course of action to take for the future, regardless of past...

sort of agree however the past is important
to learn from. not to worship.
this is what every orthodox religioun seems to do, try to go back in history.


(never said through the key away) :D
i love history that were i get my entertainment...
Btw trans since you are Shi'i muslim you belive in Hussain (grandson of muhhamad)
i am writing a paper about this stuff very intresting

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 09:49 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bts327
Now that I am thinking about it, that is a tuff question to answer.

Essential? Maybe, but this lends itself back to what you said about who is to decide who or what is right. Because someone or some group would need to decide upon the "right" essentials to be set forth. These essentials will probably differ from someone elses and then there will be war. You dont want that unless your a nutjob. So this presents a very big problem, because the society of war I cant see anyone truly enjoying, but.

I guess that's where God needs to come in.
rather than different groups, one God would be the necessary.

Is it possible to be free of the "essential"? Is it possible to be free of these "ideas" which we would form the essentials? Isnt the notion of being free of idea an idea within itself? In the current situation, which is the only realistic way to view it, then I guess that I would have to say that they are not so much neccesary as they are "there" regardless. So we have to deal with them.

the realistic view is always a smart view.
I think we need to find a way based on what is real now.


Is there a way to form all into one? So there is no opposition. Isnt this in itself an idea to be opposed by somebody?

I think so.
IF, which I doubt will happen anytime soon, IF instead of looking for differences among each other, and keep on trying to put down one another's faith and religion, we all try to find the common ground among all, we'd eventually reach that peace point.


Now Im rambling...sorry.

that was rambling man
smart post

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 09:53 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
the.. right.. based on what is around you
use religion as foundation not as the purpose of society. based on religion not for religion.

what do you think the purpose of a society is?


Then with the right minds ???? leading the way, observation upon the present would lead to decision on the right course of action to take for the future, regardless of past...


sort of agree however the past is important
to learn from. not to worship.
this is what every orthodox religioun seems to do, try to go back in history.

same with fundamental muslims and christians and everyone :D
they use the glory of their past in their advantage. I don't think they realize things have changed


(never said through the key away) :D
i love history that were i get my entertainment...
Btw trans since you are Shi'i muslim you belive in Hussain (grandson of muhhamad)
i am writing a paper about this stuff very intresting

nice nice
let me know about your findings

bts327
04-06-2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
hard to find a group like that.
since that's against human nature.

but that is exactly what's taught by religions :P

Hmmm... I think that a lot of times religion itself gets in the way of what it is trying to teach. Or maybe not. Is it against human nature?

My problem with the way that a lot of idea like religion tries to structure society is that its too unrealistic. It tries to place humans onto a "level" that we havent currently reached. So there is much inner turmoil between natural desires of the body and belief of the mind. This inner turmoil materilizes into the physical world and youve got war on your hands.

Maybe instead of trying to be all high and mighty and godly we should just be who we are by nature and try to understand ourselves without placing judgement on who or what we think we should be. all opinion.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 10:05 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bts327
Hmmm... I think that a lot of times religion itself gets in the way of what it is trying to teach. Or maybe not. Is it against human nature?

not religion, so-called religious people

My problem with the way that a lot of idea like religion tries to structure society is that its too unrealistic. It tries to place humans onto a "level" that we havent currently reached. So there is much inner turmoil between natural desires of the body and belief of the mind. This inner turmoil materilizes into the physical world and youve got war on your hands.

religion teaches how to reach that level as well.
and I assume each religion does it differently.
some by meditation, some by praying
for example, in Islam fasting for 30 days from dawn to dusk is a great way to teach discipline.


Maybe instead of trying to be all high and mighty and godly we should just be who we are by nature and try to understand ourselves without placing judgement on who or what we think we should be. all opinion.

we should do what you just said
try to know ourselves first before judging everyone else

bts327
04-06-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG

I guess that's where God needs to come in.
rather than different groups, one God would be the necessary.

Yes but with such a touchy subject; god, you will always have someone who is opposed to it. You will have society but it will not be peaceful if it is built around any central belief(especially one so suppressive), because the world is so big that on the other side there will be another society with a different belief and guess what, there will again be war. Even the idea of peace itself will bring about war with those who oppose it.

The world is perhaps to large and diversified to bring about unity under one god or system. So then isnt it more logical to do away with system and god? Of course the doing away with would certainly have to be an organized operation, a system with structure and goals just like the thing it is trying to do away with and so it becomes the thing it is trying to do away with.. This is a very complicated topic. Hopefully others will chime in.


Originally posted by TranceNRG
the realistic view is always a smart view.
I think we need to find a way based on what is real now.

Of course, perhaps this is far easier said than done though, because we will always have a vision for the future. Wont this get in the way of dealing with the present if our focus is towards something other than now? This vision will likely be derived from past experience and idea, another obstacle.


Originally posted by TranceNRG
I think so.
IF, which I doubt will happen anytime soon, IF instead of looking for differences among each other, and keep on trying to put down one another's faith and religion, we all try to find the common ground among all, we'd eventually reach that peace point.

It isnt possible to disregard the differences of one another when our beliefs, and therefore we, are different. When men find differenc among one another they will argue and this arguement will lead to war.

We are even at war with ourselves, "Im hungry for a Big Mac, so I will get one", "Wait a minute I cant, those things will kill you, and plus Im cutting." This is inner conflict of desire and belief and will always bring about endless misery and turmoil. We need toget it together ourselves before we can get it together together, me thinks.

I dont think that peace will ever be if it is viewed as a goal, a point in the future because if this is so then there must be a plan for it and this plan will be opposed by another plan, therefore no peace. If it cant be attained in an instant with the whole earth agreeing that it is time to lay down and disassemble arms then I say never. This will only ever happen if men first make peace with themselves and say goodbye to fear, which is a process of sorts regardless of wether or not it is to be viewed as one, so I guess I contradicted myself a bit. If we can become peaceful within then it will reflect without. Or something cheesy like that anyway.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 10:40 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bts327
Yes but with such a touchy subject; god, you will always have someone who is opposed to it. You will have society but it will not be peaceful if it is built around any central belief(especially one so suppressive), because the world is so big that on the other side there will be another society with a different belief and guess what, there will again be war. Even the idea of peace itself will bring about war with those who oppose it.

ever since the beginning there has been good and evil, right?
I dun think that will end.

btw, I'm not implying anything :D


The world is perhaps to large and diversified to bring about unity under one god or system. So then isnt it more logical to do away with system and god? Of course the doing away with would certainly have to be an organized operation, a system with structure and goals just like the thing it is trying to do away with and so it becomes the thing it is trying to do away with.. This is a very complicated topic. Hopefully others will chime in.


true


Of course, perhaps this is far easier said than done though, because we will always have a vision for the future. Wont this get in the way of dealing with the present if our focus is towards something other than now? This vision will likely be derived from past experience and idea, another obstacle.

well said

It isnt possible to disregard the differences of one another when our beliefs, and therefore we, are different. When men find differenc among one another they will argue and this arguement will lead to war.

it's okay to be different.
what's not okay is NOT having the tolerance to admit and accept those differences.


We are even at war with ourselves, "Im hungry for a Big Mac, so I will get one", "Wait a minute I cant, those things will kill you, and plus Im cutting." This is inner conflict of desire and belief and will always bring about endless misery and turmoil. We need toget it together ourselves before we can get it together together, me thinks.

I 100% agree

I dont think that peace will ever be if it is viewed as a goal, a point in the future because if this is so then there must be a plan for it and this plan will be opposed by another plan, therefore no peace. If it cant be attained in an instant with the whole earth agreeing that it is time to lay down and disassemble arms then I say never. This will only ever happen if men first make peace with themselves and say goodbye to fear. If we can become peaceful within then it will reflect without. Or something cheesy like that anyway.

I agree.
for step must be self-realization and being in peace with yourself.
once you in peace with your own beliefs and have enough tolerance, then you can set yourself as an example. don't preach, but live yor life based on what you have come to realize about yourself.

does it make sense?

amrbassiouny
04-07-2004, 04:44 AM
ok look i didn't read all the details of that stuff after my post cuz i don't have time now. but it doesn't matter, cuz none of it had anything to do with this thread!!! read the evidence, and then refute THAT EVIDENCE. DON'T REFUTE OTHER EVIDENCE WHICH IS IRRELEVENT TO OUR SUBJECT. START ANOTHER THREAD IF YOU ARE DESPEREATE.

and just as a note...

i can quote you a verse in the Quran that says that if a slave asks for freedom you are obliged to give it to him/her. full stop. i think it is surit il nisa', but i'll have to check cuz i can't remember exactly where it is.

this is not the point though!!! this whole thread is about that attachement i put, not the other arguments! i could argue against every single claim anybody can put up against me cuz i've already did that a million times before. and it is very time-consuming.

if you want to talk then talk about the evidence i posted there, don't start refuting other evidence. i really don't care about the rest now! if you want to talk then talk about those miracles in the quran which i posted, if not, then start another thread.

amrbassiouny
04-07-2004, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
BTW were did you take the idea of Islam=abolishment slavery?
bro you should read this
http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa040201a.htm
so now you know the reality..

now you are a prime example of a misinformed person.

let me make you look VERY bad.

chapter 24, verse 33.

And let those who cannot find a
match keep chaste, until Allah makes
them free from want out of His
grace.a And those of your slaves who
ask for a writing (of freedom), give
them the writing, if you know any
good in them, and give them of the
wealth of Allah which He has given
you.b And compel not your slave-girls to prostitution when they desire
to keep chaste, in order to seek the
frail goods of this world's life. And
whoever compels them, then surely
after their compulsion Allah is
Forgiving, Merciful.c

so you feel stupid yet? well, i don't have the time for you, just know that you are underinformed, and this is some good proof of that. if you want to challenge me on Islam and especially the Quran then know that you are challenging somebody who knows pretty much EVERYTHING that will and can be asked or shot at me. i've got into endless debates and i know every single more you can and will ever throw at me, so be careful if you want to start me. cuz you WILL lose.

now, lets go back to my proof. i have'nt seen anybody coming up with any credible evidence against it, and until you prove me wrong then i am right. so start talking about what this thread is about, the proof i put infront of you. and if you can't find any good argument against it then go attack somebody else or let your anger out somewhere away from this thread.

BigKazWSM747
04-07-2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by bts327
The simple answer being...no, of course not. The point was that there exists society/ies free of idea. They may not exist at the human "level" but that doesnt make them any less social.

True, but they are also no where near as advanced and are much more primitive societies. Are you trying to say that life in a cave with your tribe or whatever is equal to life today in say a city?

BigKazWSM747
04-07-2004, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
ok look i didn't read all the details of that stuff after my post cuz i don't have time now. but it doesn't matter, cuz none of it had anything to do with this thread!!! read the evidence, and then refute THAT EVIDENCE. DON'T REFUTE OTHER EVIDENCE WHICH IS IRRELEVENT TO OUR SUBJECT. START ANOTHER THREAD IF YOU ARE DESPEREATE.

and just as a note...

i can quote you a verse in the Quran that says that if a slave asks for freedom you are obliged to give it to him/her. full stop. i think it is surit il nisa', but i'll have to check cuz i can't remember exactly where it is.

this is not the point though!!! this whole thread is about that attachement i put, not the other arguments! i could argue against every single claim anybody can put up against me cuz i've already did that a million times before. and it is very time-consuming.

if you want to talk then talk about the evidence i posted there, don't start refuting other evidence. i really don't care about the rest now! if you want to talk then talk about those miracles in the quran which i posted, if not, then start another thread.

I'm interested to hear your response to my questions, becuase I doubt you will find a suitable answer searching the Quran. You'll have to make a logical argument on your own as opposed to going back to old throwback of "because my holy book says so".

FatFat Bastard
04-07-2004, 09:12 AM
now you are a prime example of a misinformed person.

let me make you look VERY bad.

chapter 24, verse 33.

And let those who cannot find a
match keep chaste, until Allah makes
them free from want out of His
grace.a And those of your slaves who
ask for a writing (of freedom), give
them the writing, if you know any
good in them, and give them of the
wealth of Allah which He has given
you.b And compel not your slave-girls to prostitution when they desire
to keep chaste, in order to seek the
frail goods of this world's life. And
whoever compels them, then surely
after their compulsion Allah is
Forgiving, Merciful.c

so you feel stupid yet? well, i don't have the time for you, just know that you are underinformed, and this is some good proof of that. if you want to challenge me on Islam and especially the Quran then know that you are challenging somebody who knows pretty much EVERYTHING that will and can be asked or shot at me. i've got into endless debates and i know every single more you can and will ever throw at me, so be careful if you want to start me. cuz you WILL lose.



hahah you are funny bro
did you read the article ?

However, the spread of the Islamic Empire resulted in a much harsher interpretation of the law. For example, if a dhimmis was unable to pay the taxes they could be enslaved, and people from outside the borders of the Islamic Empire were considered an acceptable source of slaves.

so what is your point
Quaran can say slaves bad
it can say slaves good.
It can justify what you want it to justify.
one of the problem points of religion.
you interped it one way or another.
and justify you interpetation using allah

BTW if your perants were jewish or christian hindu, etc you would belived just as strongly in the new/old testemants....
There quite a few reasons you belive so strongly in you faith
(why most people belive strongly in there faith)
1.Parents----don't want to disapoint them
2.Brain washing ---parents freinds imams etc...
3.Need to be part of something more then individual self
need to belong to a group.
4.need to belive in something greater then whats around you
5. need some prove to reafirm your belives in your case Quaran.


only a few people belive in religion while understanding the initial perpose behind the religion

BTW trans
purpose of society?
to try to make life greater then it was yestarday....

JohnnyLaw
04-07-2004, 10:22 AM
Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents

Last modified 6 September 2002.

(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)
Christianity: 2 billion

Islam: 1.3 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million

Buddhism: 360 million

Chinese traditional religion: 225 million

primal-indigenous: 150 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 14 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 6 million

Jainism: 4 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 3 million

Tenrikyo: 2.4 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 700 thousand

Scientology: 600 thousand

Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

bts327
04-07-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
True, but they are also no where near as advanced and are much more primitive societies. Are you trying to say that life in a cave with your tribe or whatever is equal to life today in say a city?


At the basic level I think they are the same; people will seek the same things under any circumstance or environment, ie. food, water, shelter, safety, companionship, identity, etc. The difference between the cave and the city is that in the city the seeking and finding of these things will become more complex.

Ragnarok
04-07-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by bts327
If these things are essential for the creation of a society then how can their be chimpanzees living in Africa within a tight social structure or group? Isnt this technically a society? Surely they dont have these things.

These things may be essential for the creation of a society based upon their principles, but that is all.

I was having this philosophical argument with my wife, and this is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!!!!!!!!! Many animals form tight social groups, with an alpha male as the leader, a particular pecking order, cooperative hunting, socializing "or playing together". That's definitely a society. Except without the religion.

JohnnyLaw
04-07-2004, 11:17 AM
They also masterbate in trees and fling **** at each other. I hardly ever do that.

Ragnarok
04-07-2004, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by JohnnyLaw
Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents

Last modified 6 September 2002.

(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)
Christianity: 2 billion

Islam: 1.3 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million

Buddhism: 360 million

Chinese traditional religion: 225 million

primal-indigenous: 150 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 14 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 6 million

Jainism: 4 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 3 million

Tenrikyo: 2.4 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 700 thousand

Scientology: 600 thousand

Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see Christian on the list. I would be very interested in the number and how it ranks against the others. If it IS on this list, could someone call me a moron, and point out where?

Thanks.

JohnnyLaw
04-07-2004, 11:27 AM
you sir are a moron its on the top above Islam....2 billion....making it biggest and right because of its enormity. J/K

bts327
04-07-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Ragnarok
I was having this philosophical argument with my wife, and this is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!!!!!!!!! Many animals form tight social groups, with an alpha male as the leader, a particular pecking order, cooperative hunting, socializing "or playing together". That's definitely a society. Except without the religion.

I think its a society too, pretty much the same as ours as well. Many people will argue that society only exists when in relation to humans, so go figure.

We still desire the same things as even the apes do and behave similarly, the difference is that we think and so we have created a reality around us based upon the ideas we have in thought. This reality is more complex than the apes so the only difference I see is one of complexity as opposed to simplicity. This makes our desires only more difficult to fullfill because of complexity, it doesnt change them.

BigKazWSM747
04-07-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by bts327
At the basic level I think they are the same; people will seek the same things under any circumstance or environment, ie. food, water, shelter, safety, companionship, identity, etc. The difference between the cave and the city is that in the city the seeking and finding of these things will become more complex.

Yes, but in which are you most able to achieve these goals to a further extent than the other?

Also I would have to say finding food, shelter, water, companionship, possibility safety, and indenity is both easier and more fulfilled in the city. Its much easier to locate these things and achieve them after living the city for say 6 years then living the woods for 6.

Ragnarok
04-07-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by JohnnyLaw
you sir are a moron its on the top above Islam....2 billion....making it biggest and right because of its enormity. J/K

Yep, right there it is. Thanks.

chiba102
04-07-2004, 02:10 PM
Im not a religious but astonished to know that Quran contains unbelievable scientific facts discovered just in the last century.

This is really amazing.

Astronomy!
Mountains!
Human Embryology!
Oceans And Seas!
The Movement Of Clouds!
The Cerebrum!
The Shape Of The Earth!
The Expansion Of The Universe!
The Sensory Characteristic Of The Skin!
Formation Of Iron!
The Lowest Part On The Face Of The Earth!
The Sequence Of Day And Night!
The Snow Age!
New Diseases!
Cnn Top Ten Discoveries Of 1998

You can find more info of the Scientists Declaration on the following site:
http://www.islampedia.com/ijaz/Html/Scientist_All/Index.htm

Scientists Declaration

Keith L.Moore
E. Marshall Johnson
T.V.N. Persaud
Joe Leigh Simpson
Gerald C. Goeringer
Alfred Kroner
Yushidi Kusan
Professor Armstrong
William Hay
Durja Rao
Professor Siaveda
Tejatat Tejasen
Dr. Maurice Bucaille

http://islamicity.com/science/
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

AnotherScorpion
04-07-2004, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by nitr0x
He was trying to be funny

I was serious

JohnnyLaw
04-07-2004, 02:14 PM
its funny but biblical scientists have been saying this about the bible for years. Nobody is shocked or amazed about that.


Let the attacks begin.

bts327
04-07-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Yes, but in which are you most able to achieve these goals to a further extinct than the other?

Also I would have to say finding food, shelter, water, companionship, possibility safety, and indenity is both easier and more fulfilled in the city. Its much easier to locate these things and achieve them after living the city for say 6 years then living the woods for 6.


I guess it depends on perspective. I do agree with your point as well as agreeing with the converse. Maybe what I meant wasnt "more complex" but "different" to some degree. Thanks for pointing this out.

amrbassiouny
04-07-2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by chiba102
I�m not a religious but astonished to know that Quran contains unbelievable scientific facts discovered just in the last century.

This is really amazing.

� Astronomy!
� Mountains!
� Human Embryology!
� Oceans And Seas!
� The Movement Of Clouds!
� The Cerebrum!
� The Shape Of The Earth!
� The Expansion Of The Universe!
� The Sensory Characteristic Of The Skin!
� Formation Of Iron!
� The Lowest Part On The Face Of The Earth!
� The Sequence Of Day And Night!
� The Snow Age!
� New Diseases!
� Cnn Top Ten Discoveries Of 1998

You can find more info of the Scientists Declaration on the following site:
http://www.islampedia.com/ijaz/Html/Scientist_All/Index.htm

Scientists Declaration

� Keith L.Moore
� E. Marshall Johnson
� T.V.N. Persaud
� Joe Leigh Simpson
� Gerald C. Goeringer
� Alfred Kroner
� Yushidi Kusan
� Professor Armstrong
� William Hay
� Durja Rao
� Professor Siaveda
� Tejatat Tejasen
� Dr. Maurice Bucaille

http://islamicity.com/science/
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

thank you. the first person to talk about the focus of this thread for quite a while. can you plz stop hijacking this thread with other arguments? take it elsewhere.

now, take your arguments to another place, exchange numbers of MSN emails and do that there.

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
True, but they are also no where near as advanced and are much more primitive societies. Are you trying to say that life in a cave with your tribe or whatever is equal to life today in say a city?


are you implying that living in caves is what religions promote?

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by AnotherScorpion
I was serious


if you werew, can you please put the verse here?

thanks

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
are you implying that living in caves is what religions promote?

No. I never linked religion and a lack of society together. I was just addressing tribes living together vs. modern day society and which one betters fulfills our needs. Religion didn't really factor into the equation there.

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
thank you. the first person to talk about the focus of this thread for quite a while. can you plz stop hijacking this thread with other arguments? take it elsewhere.

now, take your arguments to another place, exchange numbers of MSN emails and do that there.

Are you going to even address what I said? Because I think it certainly affects if the Quran is valid or not. I think you and I can both agree problems in logic would be man-made not divine, especially if the god in question is supposed to be all powerful and all knowing.

amrbassiouny
04-08-2004, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Are you going to even address what I said? Because I think it certainly affects if the Quran is valid or not. I think you and I can both agree problems in logic would be man-made not divine, especially if the god in question is supposed to be all powerful and all knowing.

i'm sorry man, i think i missed that. looking back, is that the thing you talked about with the apes and monekys compared to humans? to be honest i didn't understand where the argument was there...would you mind rephrasing?

though to be honest i'd still like us to stick to what this thread is about. so lets keep discussions/debates like the one i'm getting into now (yea, i can't push it away since the guy was so polite asking for it) for other threads and stick to debating specifically with this evidence i posted here.

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
i'm sorry man, i think i missed that. looking back, is that the thing you talked about with the apes and monekys compared to humans? to be honest i didn't understand where the argument was there...would you mind rephrasing?

though to be honest i'd still like us to stick to what this thread is about. so lets keep discussions/debates like the one i'm getting into now (yea, i can't push it away since the guy was so polite asking for it) for other threads and stick to debating specifically with this evidence i posted here.

well it was way back on the 1st page actually.

Here:

If the Quran denies free will then it brings the question of why is the world the way it is today? Whereas the Islamic utopia would not resemble today's world at all. If Allah represents total virtue or good then why does he tolerate the existence of so much evil?Especially since free will doesn't exist or so it is claimed.

If free will is considered important then why does Allah interfer with free will by having the muslims triumph over the infidels? And then why do the "infidels" still triumph over the muslims? (if it doesn't exist)

BTW Matthew only traces Jesus back to Abraham, I checked.

chiba102
04-08-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
thank you. the first person to talk about the focus of this thread for quite a while. can you plz stop hijacking this thread with other arguments? take it elsewhere.

now, take your arguments to another place, exchange numbers of MSN emails and do that there.


No problem

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
well it was way back on the 1st page actually.

Here:

If the Quran denies free will then it brings the question of why is the world the way it is today? Whereas the Islamic utopia would not resemble today's world at all. If Allah represents total virtue or good then why does he tolerate the existence of so much evil?Especially since free will doesn't exist or so it is claimed.

If free will is considered important then why does Allah interfer with free will by having the muslims triumph over the infidels? And then why do the "infidels" still triumph over the muslims? (if it doesn't exist)

BTW Matthew only traces Jesus back to Abraham, I checked.

the question of free will vs. fate

is like asking the question about egg or chicken?!

no way to find a definite answer.

I personally believe it's neither 100% free will nor 100% fate.
it's something in between.

JonZ
04-08-2004, 12:10 PM
ALL religion is Mythology.

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
the question of free will vs. fate

is like asking the question about egg or chicken?!

no way to find a definite answer.

I personally believe it's neither 100% free will nor 100% fate.
it's something in between.

Well then give me an example of something you consider fate, if free will does not extend absolutely. Also assuming you believe in a God who is absolutely good then why would they select a middle of the road stance on this issue? I thought free will was even allowing you to make the wrong choice, even though you will be punished in the afterlife. IMO it can't really be in between, and I rule out fate (at least for the major religions) because so much of the world today goes against what they preach.

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 01:23 PM
HEY WTF!? Why was my post deleted and why was amrbassiouny's reponse to my inquiry deleted!?

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Well then give me an example of something you consider fate, if free will does not extend absolutely. Also assuming you believe in a God who is absolutely good then why would they select a middle of the road stance on this issue? I thought free will was even allowing you to make the wrong choice, even though you will be punished in the afterlife. IMO it can't really be in between, and I rule out fate (at least for the major religions) because so much of the world today goes against what they preach.


long but explains alot (at least to me)

http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/free.htm

_-_-_
04-08-2004, 04:28 PM
you will find refutations to that nonesense about koran and science here:


http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/home.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/index.htm

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by _-_-_
you will find refutations to that nonesense about koran and science here:


http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/home.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/index.htm





http://www.answering-christianity.org/ac.htm

_-_-_
04-08-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
http://www.answering-christianity.org/ac.htm

That site is the biggest joke on the internet...look at his scandal here to understand why...look at the "scientific sources" he uses in his article..phone numbers!! unbelievable :

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/360joints.htm

I'm surprised he is still "showing face" after that.



Here is one of the rare objective muslim scholars that admits that trying to use science to promote the koran is redicilous:



What's so amazing about interpreting the Qur'an scientifically and then just standing back stunned at the apparently miraculous reconciliation of science and the Qur'an? It reminds me of a 'Mr. Bean' episode where he writes Christmas cards out to himself, walks out of his apartment door, posts them through his own apartment door via the mail-slot and walks in a few seconds later. And to his wonderful surprise as interpreted by his mentality, he's received Christmas cards! Amazing! The whole enterprise does have a hidden circularity embedded into it.


http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/embryo.html

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by _-_-_
That site is the biggest joke on the internet...look at his scandal here to understand why...look at the "scientific sources" he uses in his article..phone numbers!! unbelievable :

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/360joints.htm

I'm surprised he is still "showing face" after that.



Here is one of the rare objective muslim scholars that admits that trying to use science to promote the koran is redicilous:



http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/embryo.html



the sites that you have represnted are also as senseless and biased.


edit:

read Chiba's post in one of these threats
about the miracles.

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
long but explains alot (at least to me)

http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/free.htm

interesting by I must disagree.

Free will shows true love not neglect. If God's interference with free will and only acts in certain cases then that is neglect.

The article implies that man must fear the awesome power of God in order to stay. I disagree, if God represents virtue then man will seek out virtues because that is part of the road to true salvation. Fear is not a necessary part of this process, and you can not truely and wholeheartedly embrace the road to righteousness if you are doing it for a selfish-purpose (the desire to avoid wrath).

I believe it to be too much of a paradox to claim "God controls whatever exists in the heavens or on earth" and then say "He has willed that man should construct his own future, good or bad, bright or dark, in accordance with his own discernment and desires." This contrast should appear obvious enough.

Also these schools of thought do not adequately address reconilling God's interference in the affairs of men listed in the scriptures with man's apparent freedom of choice from divine intervention.

SYRIANKID
04-09-2004, 04:45 PM
If anyone wants to take up a serious philosophical challenge and get a good idea of the Muslim view on free will, I highly recommend

Abu Hamid al-Ghazali (1058-1111)
"The Incoherence of the Philosophers"

It's a lot better than just tossing verses around, plus the man is one of the most famous philosophers of the Muslim world

_-_-_
04-09-2004, 04:52 PM
This is an good , well researched article on Islam and free will :

http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/limitedallah.html

FatFat Bastard
04-09-2004, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by _-_-_
This is an good , well researched article on Islam and free will :

http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/limitedallah.html

whole sh**
good arguments.

BigKazWSM747
04-09-2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by _-_-_
This is an good , well researched article on Islam and free will :

http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/limitedallah.html

Good article. I'm thinking on possibily writing up an essay on christianity and free will at some point. If I never decide to do it then i'll be sure to post it in this section.

aserecuba
04-09-2004, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
whole sh**
good arguments.
well again like i said free will is very complex but to an observer from above, simply knowing that something will happen does not mean that it wasnt was your choice.to make example:

you tell me you are going to rob a store. now I KNOW you will rob the store because you told me you assured me you were going to rob the store. who made the choice to rob the store? it was your decision the simple fact that i know you will rob it doesnt change the fact that it was you that chose to rob it. right??

BigKazWSM747
04-09-2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
well again like i said free will is very complex but to an observer from above, simply knowing that something will happen does not mean that it wasnt was your choice.to make example:

you tell me you are going to rob a store. now I KNOW you will rob the store because you told me you assured me you were going to rob the store. who made the choice to rob the store? it was your decision the simple fact that i know you will rob it doesnt change the fact that it was you that chose to rob it. right??

Well there are other examples, which don't go as well as that one.

Such as God would know who was going to win say a football game, because he would know every "choice" people made.

aserecuba
04-09-2004, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Well there are other examples, which don't go as well as that one.

Such as God would know who was going to win say a football game, because he would know every "choice" people made.
well a group of people are going to rob a store. im on the roof and i hear the whole planning, everything. i know every step they will take because i was on the roof listening. does that mean they didnt make the choice to rob the store themselves. all im guily of is knowing what they will do.

same thing with the football game, i listened to their planning i know what play they will attempt next and its foolproof. is it my fault they win the game? all im guilty of is being an observer and knowing. but hey they chose the play not me.

smartboybynd
04-09-2004, 10:24 PM
this is the way i see free will. we decide our destiny by what choces we make in life. god just knows our destiny before we do, but we still decide it. god wouldnt decide our destiny. if he did, there would be no free will. think about it, is anything making you read this thread? no, you are reading it because you want to. your destiny is a reflection on what you will do.
my $0.02