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Hat
04-05-2004, 09:28 PM
I posted this poll to see how diverse the beliefs of the members of Bodybuilding.com are. This thread is not intended as a debate platform, just a poll. With 50,000 members, I think this is a fascinating venue for a poll such as this.

The Spirituality choice includes those with non specific belief in a higher power, souls, and afterlife (any or all of those) without adhering to an established religion or world view. Deism is included here.

mariners216
04-05-2004, 09:37 PM
Agnosticism

FatFat Bastard
04-05-2004, 09:39 PM
belive in god
but not in religion.

egon
04-05-2004, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
belive in god
but not in religion.


aye, religion is corrupt and watered down, but i can't deny the existance of a god

Crimson-Model
04-05-2004, 10:03 PM
I don't know. :(

Debaser
04-05-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
belive in god
but not in religion.

Amen.

FatFat Bastard
04-05-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Debaser
Amen.

you too bro
I am glad to hear this...

bts327
04-05-2004, 10:21 PM
other

Pump that iron!
04-05-2004, 11:12 PM
I, myself do not believe in any god or religion.

I think it's a bunch of nonsense.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by egon
aye, religion is corrupt and watered down, but i can't deny the existance of a god


I disagree

religions are NOT corrupt.
the human nature is, which causes the religion to seem corrupt.


But Personally, I belong to Islam. but at the same time I respect all other religions equally.

AnotherScorpion
04-06-2004, 03:09 AM
Athiesm

AnotherScorpion
04-06-2004, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
I disagree

religions are NOT corrupt.
the human nature is, which causes the religion to seem corrupt.







The point is still valid...Religion is corrupt! God should protect his own system that sent to earth. Why he is changing his laws, words, system....etc.? According to Islam, Judaism and Christianity were all corrupted by people. God didn't do anything to protect his own system, so he sent a new fresh one, Islam (in term, it's really old and outdated). That's so confusing bro!

Cod
04-06-2004, 03:28 AM
I'm a crossbreed between Athiesm and Scientology. Also, off the record, I believe in the 'Theory of Evolution'; not creationism.

BuckWyld
04-06-2004, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by Cod
I'm a crossbreed between Athiesm and Scientology.

As in L Ron Hubbard Scientology?

amrbassiouny
04-06-2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by AnotherScorpion
The point is still valid...Religion is corrupt! God should protect his own system that sent to earth. Why he is changing his laws, words, system....etc.? According to Islam, Judaism and Christianity were all corrupted by people. God didn't do anything to protect his own system, so he sent a new fresh one, Islam (in term, it's really old and outdated). That's so confusing bro!

God has a good way of doing things. God tells a nation (Israel): "here, take this book and these prophets, and don't corrupt it." but what the heck, they corrupt it. therefore, God gave them a chance, and they blew it! second chance. send Jesus. Jesus says "ok, here is another one, don't corrupt this like you corrupted the Torah!!" but they blow that too. then God says, "ok, enough. You have all had your chances. those of you who have corrupted my religions will be punished, and here is Islam, and this will never be corrupted. nomatter what you do." and it hasn't. get that?

very logical. God always gives you a chance, he is testing you. though you might say "why doesn't he just get it overwith and send me to hell since he already knows what ill do?!" very simple. thats because God says "ok, i'll give you a chance so that you have no excuse. I'm fair. I'm just. and you will choose your destiny."

also to answer the rest of your question. not every religion was made for all times and places! one single set of rules or ideals can never be able to rule the whole world at all times and places!

so God sent for example judaism for that specific time and place, though it would be unsuitable for other times and places. and so on. the special thing about the Quran is that it was written in a way which would allow people to "reinterpret" the verses in different ways to be able to better serve each different time and place! i can right now (after learning and studying my ass off) interpret only one quranic verse as many many things. for example one verse can tell you "women should only cover their chests to be modest" or "women should cover their heads to be modest" or "women should cover their face and head to be modest." its really only how you interpret it, not how its written.

in the begining of the second chapter of the Quran (al imran) it tells us that some of the verses are firm and straightforward, hance cannot be changed. while others are allogerical or metaphorical, and hence they can be "reinterpreted" for any time or place. of course any interpretation must be based on logic and reason rather than personal wants or needs.

God is a logical being. and the only thing which seems to be of any logic to me is the Quran. i can give you a million valid reasons proving my point (just go to that other thread i started about proof of the quran bible and torah and youll get a small glimpse of what i'm saying). read, learn, study, and most of all be open minded and unbiased. search for the truth and put any personal feelings aside, that is the only way you will be able to find it.

BigKazWSM747
04-06-2004, 09:22 AM
Agnostic

BigKazWSM747
04-06-2004, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
God has a good way of doing things. God tells a nation (Israel): "here, take this book and these prophets, and don't corrupt it." but what the heck, they corrupt it. therefore, God gave them a chance, and they blew it! second chance. send Jesus. Jesus says "ok, here is another one, don't corrupt this like you corrupted the Torah!!" but they blow that too. then God says, "ok, enough. You have all had your chances. those of you who have corrupted my religions will be punished, and here is Islam, and this will never be corrupted. nomatter what you do." and it hasn't. get that?

very logical. God always gives you a chance, he is testing you. though you might say "why doesn't he just get it overwith and send me to hell since he already knows what ill do?!" very simple. thats because God says "ok, i'll give you a chance so that you have no excuse. I'm fair. I'm just. and you will choose your destiny."

also to answer the rest of your question. not every religion was made for all times and places! one single set of rules or ideals can never be able to rule the whole world at all times and places!

so God sent for example judaism for that specific time and place, though it would be unsuitable for other times and places. and so on. the special thing about the Quran is that it was written in a way which would allow people to "reinterpret" the verses in different ways to be able to better serve each different time and place! i can right now (after learning and studying my ass off) interpret only one quranic verse as many many things. for example one verse can tell you "women should only cover their chests to be modest" or "women should cover their heads to be modest" or "women should cover their face and head to be modest." its really only how you interpret it, not how its written.

in the begining of the second chapter of the Quran (al imran) it tells us that some of the verses are firm and straightforward, hance cannot be changed. while others are allogerical or metaphorical, and hence they can be "reinterpreted" for any time or place. of course any interpretation must be based on logic and reason rather than personal wants or needs.

God is a logical being. and the only thing which seems to be of any logic to me is the Quran. i can give you a million valid reasons proving my point (just go to that other thread i started about proof of the quran bible and torah and youll get a small glimpse of what i'm saying). read, learn, study, and most of all be open minded and unbiased. search for the truth and put any personal feelings aside, that is the only way you will be able to find it.

A supposed logic that falls in upon itself. Such as the paradox of free will yet frequent references of God intervening to cause one side to win. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't free will also based on you being able to make the wrong choices, you will just be judged at the end?

Also if God deems himself fit to intervene for the Israelites against the Canaanites why then does evil flourish so much in the world is free will can just be compromised? Why then does evil exist? If God deems it fit to crush evil, because a definition of evil sometimes used is having the power to do something but doing nothing, then why does he not just stomp out evil altogether? I thought a God was supposed to stand for absolutes (good) why then does the God in the Old Testament appear to change his mind so frequently? Also why does he make the Israelites his "chosen people" when Jesus says that God has no chosen people and everyone regardless of race or gender has a chance at salvation?

Also as for the Quran. Why does Mohammed basically extend some of the teachings of Jesus but he seeks them through violent means?

Dorian
04-06-2004, 09:30 AM
I beleive in me

supergarr
04-06-2004, 09:35 AM
easter bunny

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by AnotherScorpion
The point is still valid...Religion is corrupt! God should protect his own system that sent to earth. Why he is changing his laws, words, system....etc.? According to Islam, Judaism and Christianity were all corrupted by people. God didn't do anything to protect his own system, so he sent a new fresh one, Islam (in term, it's really old and outdated). That's so confusing bro!


that's when God allows people to have free-will.

it's very interesting. When things go wrong, people blame God and not their free will, when things go right they assume they are the ones who did it and ignore God.

CerealKiller
04-06-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
that's when God allows people to have free-will.



What makes you think free-will comes from God ?

Jakman20
04-06-2004, 02:27 PM
what is agnosticism and oh yeah im a christian

CerealKiller
04-06-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Jakman20
what is agnosticism and oh yeah im a christian

The belief that nobody can confirm or deny the existence of any gods. We simply do not know if any gods exist, but we don't deny it's possible that they might. As of now there is not enough evidence for a meaningful guess in either direction.

affy
04-06-2004, 02:50 PM
Religon is a good thing, give us something to belief in...some faith. The problem lies with the people who are members of that religon who can't keep there mouths shut about there religon being the right one and such. If you beleve in something keep it to yourself, don't try to convice or convert anyone. To me that is one of the biggest sins.

btw im a Zoroastrian

BigKazWSM747
04-06-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
that's when God allows people to have free-will.

it's very interesting. When things go wrong, people blame God and not their free will, when things go right they assume they are the ones who did it and ignore God.

Or something miraclous happens and they praise God and something goes wrong and they blame either people or the devil working through people.

Also it doesn't make any logical sense as to why a God believing in free will would intervene at all, even if it was to our benefit.

bonethug187
04-06-2004, 03:55 PM
i bellieve in sikhism

AnotherScorpion
04-06-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
that's when God allows people to have free-will.

it's very interesting. When things go wrong, people blame God and not their free will, when things go right they assume they are the ones who did it and ignore God.

According to Islam and Koran...God guides some and mislead others! That's not a freewill my friend...everything is written!

AnotherScorpion
04-06-2004, 04:53 PM
read below

AnotherScorpion
04-06-2004, 04:56 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by amrbassiouny

also to answer the rest of your question. not every religion was made for all times and places! one single set of rules or ideals can never be able to rule the whole world at all times and places!

[/QUOTE

I agree....so according to this I sill think Islam is outdated long time ago!! Chopping hands and an eye for an eye is not for 21st century! Lets talk about making new religion were Bill gates is GOD!

shinysound
04-06-2004, 06:08 PM
religion has caused more deaths than any other factor in the history of humanity. i refuse to dedicate my life to something that has caused endless suffering. if u believe firmly in christianity, yet still sin, then you know that u have suffering in store in the end. so life becomes waiting for punishment in a sense. **** the idea of hell-the idea of living ur life knowing u didnt live up to par is hell enough for me. just live and love.

JigaroKagan
04-06-2004, 06:52 PM
I'm agnostic because religion and god are trivial to me. I make my own path and I reap my own consequences or rewards.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by affy
Religon is a good thing, give us something to belief in...some faith. The problem lies with the people who are members of that religon who can't keep there mouths shut about there religon being the right one and such. If you beleve in something keep it to yourself, don't try to convice or convert anyone. To me that is one of the biggest sins.

btw im a Zoroastrian

BIG BUMP

the best way to preach is follow what you believe in, and let people just see your life. If they like it, they'll ask you questions and you answer.
If no one cares don't preach

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by CerealKiller
What makes you think free-will comes from God ?


what do you mean?

free-will is when God doesn't intervene with our decisions and let us experience the consequence of our own decisions.
and I believe that's the case ALOT of times.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by AnotherScorpion
According to Islam and Koran...God guides some and mislead others! That's not a freewill my friend...everything is written!


God doesn't mislead them
they do so... God let's them mislead themselves.

That doesn't mean that God misleads them. God lets them make their decisions and if it's misleading then be it.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 08:39 PM
brief philosophical view

Predestination and Free Will

* In his exposé, the Prophet Muhammad has lastly demanded the belief that the determination (qadr) of all good and evil is from God. Does this phrase signify that everything is predestined for man, or does the statement merely imply that the qualification of good and evil in a given act depends on God? In other words, nothing is good or evil in itself, but it is so only because God has declared it to be so and man has nothing to do but observe it.

* In fact, here is a dilemma for the theologian. If we declare that man is responsible for his acts, it would be incompatible with the predestination of his acts. Similarly, if we declare that man is free in his acts, then this would imply that God has neither power over nor the knowledge of what man is going to do in his worldly life. The two alternatives create an embarrassment. One would like to attribute to God not only justice, but also omnipotence and omniscience. The Prophet Muhammad ridicules this discussion, which will ever remain inconclusive, and he has formally ordered his adherents not to engage in it, adding: "People before you have been led astray by this discussion." He recognizes for God, in all respect and reverence, the attribute of omnipotence - omniscience, and also affirms that man will be held responsible for his acts. He does not want to tie up one of these things with the other. In a way, he relegates this discussion to the level of the futility of knowing whether the hen came first or the egg..

* Moreover, good and evil are relative terms. A tiger hunts a rabbit for food. What is good (sustenance) for one is evil (death) for the other. That is why the evil that seems to reach us is on account of our own nature, which merits or requires that "evil." That is also why it is for God to determine for whom a given act is good and for whom a given act is evil. Furthermore, it should be remembered that the conception of 'responsibility' is a this-worldly thing, whereas the 'Divine reward and punishment' belong to the other-worldly matters. We are shocked only when we relegate them both to the same level. To do so would be a fallacy.

* Let us remember that it is this double belief in the omnipotence of God and the absolute individual responsibility of man which rouses a Muslim to action, even as it enables him to support easily an unavoidable misfortune. Far from creating in him an immobility, it gives him a dynamism. We have to refer to the exploits of the early Muslims, who were the best practitioners of the teaching of the Prophet, in order to convince ourselves of the truth of this statement.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 08:49 PM
099.007
YUSUFALI: Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!

099.008
YUSUFALI: And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.

076.003
YUSUFALI: We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will).



Here's a question... why does it have to Black OR White?!
maybe it's something in between

CerealKiller
04-06-2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
what do you mean?

free-will is when God doesn't intervene with our decisions and let us experience the consequence of our own decisions.
and I believe that's the case ALOT of times.

Free will is not something God had to give us. It is inherent in self-aware beings.

Why would a God that loves us give us free will and then punish us for using it ? Free will is rather pointless when your choice is to "do as I command or else!"

The "or else" was spelled out rather dramatically in Deuteronomy 28:

20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.
25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and ravish her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.
36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the LORD will drive you.
38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.
43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.
45 All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you.

Cod
04-06-2004, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by BuckWyld
As in L Ron Hubbard Scientology?
That's the one.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 08:52 PM
cereal...
I can't comment on the Bible verses, I'm sure there are enough christians here to do so.

But if you find verses from Quran, I'll be more than willing to look into them.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 09:00 PM
interesting read
I doubt any of non-muslims would know this... or accept it.

http://www.harunyahya.com/32why_an_authoritarian_soc12.php

Danski
04-07-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
belive in god
but not in religion.

totally agree...

AnotherScorpion
04-07-2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
God doesn't mislead them
they do so... God let's them mislead themselves.

That doesn't mean that God misleads them. God lets them make their decisions and if it's misleading then be it.

Trance,

I will assume that you are non-arabic speaker Muslim...right?

Learn Arabic, then start reading Quran!! God stated in Quran that he himself guides and misguides people period!

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 01:42 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CerealKiller
Free will is not something God had to give us. It is inherent in self-aware beings.

Why would a God that loves us give us free will and then punish us for using it ? Free will is rather pointless when your choice is to "do as I command or else!"

The "or else" was spelled out rather dramatically in Deuteronomy 28:


hey Bro
I can't comment on the biblical verses. I'll let the christians take this :P

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by AnotherScorpion
Trance,

I will assume that you are non-arabic speaker Muslim...right?

Learn Arabic, then start reading Quran!! God stated in Quran that he himself guides and misguides people period!


I'm sure we have arabs on this board.

we can ask them to translate teh Quran.
just present the verses you have in mind and let's wait for arabs to translate them.

JC-orginalbdass
04-08-2004, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by affy
Religon is a good thing, give us something to belief in...some faith. The problem lies with the people who are members of that religon who can't keep there mouths shut about there religon being the right one and such. If you beleve in something keep it to yourself, don't try to convice or convert anyone. To me that is one of the biggest sins.

btw im a Zoroastrian

But to Christians, it's not a sin. Jesus repeatedly tells us to spread the word. My favorite example (and I don't have a bible handy to say what verse this is) In the gospels, when Jesus feeds the thousands, he commands his deciples, "You feed them."
The problem is the way that many Christians go about feeding others. They are not gentle. They force the food down people's throats, which chokes them and causes a distaste. I can't stand that either. As Christians, it is our responsibility to learn the word and gently lead others. We also have a helper that Jesus names as the Holy Spirit. It's primariliy the spirits job to lead others to Christ, but we do need to do our part as well.

aserecuba
04-08-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
You have all had your chances. those of you who have corrupted my religions will be punished, and here is Islam, and this will never be corrupted. nomatter what you do." and it hasn't. get that?



sounds easy but whos to tell thats the truth?

amrbassiouny
04-08-2004, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by aserecuba
sounds easy but whos to tell thats the truth?

as we muslims say, "al a'amal bilneyat."

literal meaning, acts are with intentions. so if you have a good intention, and follow the wrong path, then you are safe. but if you have a bad intention and follow the right path, then ur not safe. very simple.

amrbassiouny
04-08-2004, 10:32 AM
i know this is just a waste of time, but i'll just flex my muscles with this guy here...


Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
A supposed logic that falls in upon itself. Such as the paradox of free will yet frequent references of God intervening to cause one side to win. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't free will also based on you being able to make the wrong choices, you will just be judged at the end?

i never said God intervenes with free will. if i ever talked about this subject, and if you ever learnt how to read well and concentrate for long periods of time, you will realize that everything i've said was "God does not directly interfere with us." and in that post, if you read, i said that God leaves us to do what we want, good or bad, and then we are judged upon that. so? can you debate that? pfft...READ!!!


Originally posted by BigKazWSM747

Also if God deems himself fit to intervene for the Israelites against the Canaanites why then does evil flourish so much in the world is free will can just be compromised? Why then does evil exist? If God deems it fit to crush evil, because a definition of evil sometimes used is having the power to do something but doing nothing, then why does he not just stomp out evil altogether? I thought a God was supposed to stand for absolutes (good) why then does the God in the Old Testament appear to change his mind so frequently? Also why does he make the Israelites his "chosen people" when Jesus says that God has no chosen people and everyone regardless of race or gender has a chance at salvation?

let me make something straight. if God is "God," then he doens't "deem himself fit" to anything. He just does what he wants and it happens the way he wants it to. now, why does God "deem himself fit" to intervene for the israelites..blbalalb...because he wanted to. full stop. is that hard for you to understand? though God said that he leaves each person to his own will. hence, He never MAKES anybody do anything, you do it yourself, and then He judges you. thats the whole ****ing point. why doesn he not stop evil? because if he did then he wouldn't have to judge anyone, would he? why doesn't God stand for good and not crush evil? because there is free will. do you have no logical brain that functions with any logical order? why des ht make the Israelites his "chosen people" when Jesus says blbalbla...i don't care really. the bible is corrupt and we all know that. the Quran is the only credible source to get this info from (and i can prove that it is the case, real evidence which you cannot debate with me about, so don't even try to waste my time on that), and the Quran says that the israelites WERE the chosen people until they corrupted their books and then God sent Jesus to fix that.

LOGIC.


Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
Also as for the Quran. Why does Mohammed basically extend some of the teachings of Jesus but he seeks them through violent means?

He doesn't "extend" the teachings of Jesus, and he never takes it through violent means. you are another misinformed and undereducated person. i know EXACTLY what you will tell me if i reply to this, and i know EXACTLY what to say when you say that. and it pisses me off cuz it takes so much time for me to do it, yet it is so damn easy.

let me just tell you some facts, and spare me the time of having to run around getting the proof. i'm sure that after all you've read from me you can assume that i don't bull**** nor do i talk out of my ass.

1) the Quran was sent by God. the bible was written by humans. THAT is the difference.

2) the bible was made for one time and place, whlie the Quran was made for all times and places.

3) it doens't "extend" the bible, it just fixes all that **** that was messed up, adds on it things like democracy and human rights and closes it once and for all. and YES I CAN QUOTE ALL THIS. but please spare yourself the humiliation and spare me the time wasted.

4) The Quran is very tolerant and non-violent. i can right now pull out a verse of the Quran which tells all muslims to slaughter every pagan they see. lol. but you know something, i just read it. when i interpret it, it is a VERY different case. and i won't write down the interpretation now, but the conclusion is that no, muslims shouldn't kill and slaughter every pagan they see. so just reading things is stupid, you have to learn how to interpret them. if you don't (which is clearly the case) then read a good interpretation written by a moderate trustable person. i can reccomend some good ones i've found.

reading the Quran is one thing everybody can do! i can do it, you can do it and your mother can do it too. but not everybody can interpret it. until you learn to interpret the Quran, and until you get the necessary info to interpret it (which is extremely hard to find), then shut up and listen to those who do.

let me give you a list of what you need to interpret the Quran.

- Arabic language.
- arabic Quran.
- the hadith
- historial records of what happened when in the time of the Quran.
- "the reasons for revelation" books
- a brain (you can try to buy one of those)
- many other scholars to debate with
- Al-Azhar intepretations (which are crap)
- other interpretations you can find
- A LOT OF TIME.
- at least a year of practice and debate with knowledgable persons.

do you have all those? no. you don't. but, i do. so until you do, i don't want you talking about the Quran, because now you know that you don't know anything about it. so be quiet.

enough time wasted.

aserecuba
04-08-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
i know this is just a waste of time, but i'll just flex my muscles with this guy here...




1) the Quran was sent by God. the bible was written by humans. THAT is the difference.

2) the bible was made for one time and place, whlie the Quran was made for all times and places.

3)

1)the Quran was sent by God. not 100 proof. it does seem to be a nice tactic though if you want a people to not question it. " it was sent firectly from God so dont question it" very convenient.

2) why would God who is all- knowing sent the bible for one time one people. and Quran for all times. nice logic there. and you also said before that God sent the torah, it was corrupted so God gave us another change, Jesus Christ. then Christ's word was also corrupted??? so everything that doesnt agree with the quran has been tampered with, again very convenient.

3) why are you getting upset? cant you explain something without trying to make the other person feel stupid.? talk about tolerance ::rolls eyes::

FatFat Bastard
04-08-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by aserecuba
1)the Quran was sent by God. not 100 proof. it does seem to be a nice tactic though if you want a people to not question it. " it was sent firectly from God so dont question it" very convenient.

2) why would God who is all- knowing sent the bible for one time one people. and Quran for all times. nice logic there. and you also said before that God sent the torah, it was corrupted so God gave us another change, Jesus Christ. then Christ's word was also corrupted??? so everything that doesnt agree with the quran has been tampered with, again very convenient.

3) why are you getting upset? cant you explain something without trying to make the other person feel stupid.? talk about tolerance ::rolls eyes::

aserecuba
this kid is very sensetive about the quaran as the world of god
it is as much word of god as is judaism and christianity,
judaism is not a word of god
nither is Isam

Muhhamad was a bright men
he created a book in Arabic
because Arabic was a language he spoke.
It is Arabic poetry because poetry was considered powerfull in the arab world at the time.
It still is.
Allah is called Allah because of the Main Idol
Muhhamad could not make up a name because people had to associate god with the Idolic god in order to belive.

nevertheless
Quaran is a great book but has no conection to god.
It has basic and essintial parts on how to run society wich is very impresive.
took the stuff from both christian and jewish belives and improved on them (there books of other religions that improve on the quaran as well)
anyway no need to be upset about this
but good is not a supramist and he does not "choose people"
which makes religion false.

AnotherScorpion
04-08-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
I'm sure we have arabs on this board.

we can ask them to translate teh Quran.
just present the verses you have in mind and let's wait for arabs to translate them.

Trance,

I'm really surprised with your limited knowledge of Quran! The reason I say that is cuz more than dozen verse in Quran talks about how God purposely mislead some people! I can think of right now: 16:93, 14:4, 16:37, 14:27, 13:33, 7:155, 6:125, 13:27 and many more! For me, if God purposely dose that then he/she/it is Evil or malice! But I guess for believers, there is some sort of wisdom behind it! lol I guess I'm one of those people that God led to stray! huh

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
interesting read
I doubt any of non-muslims would know this... or accept it.

http://www.harunyahya.com/32why_an_authoritarian_soc12.php

Well Islam in its early stages was just as much of a politcal/military conquest movement as a religious one.

The Ukrainian
04-08-2004, 01:58 PM
im just asking so dont get to upset with me, ive read on the internet that wen (in the Qu'aran) it is final judgemnt that the muslims have a better chance of going to heaven and even if a muslim goes to hell for being bad they can go back to heaven after a given time, is this true?

BigKazWSM747
04-08-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
i know this is just a waste of time, but i'll just flex my muscles with this guy here...



i never said God intervenes with free will. if i ever talked about this subject, and if you ever learnt how to read well and concentrate for long periods of time, you will realize that everything i've said was "God does not directly interfere with us." and in that post, if you read, i said that God leaves us to do what we want, good or bad, and then we are judged upon that. so? can you debate that? pfft...READ!!!


let me make something straight. if God is "God," then he doens't "deem himself fit" to anything. He just does what he wants and it happens the way he wants it to. now, why does God "deem himself fit" to intervene for the israelites..blbalalb...because he wanted to. full stop. is that hard for you to understand? though God said that he leaves each person to his own will. hence, He never MAKES anybody do anything, you do it yourself, and then He judges you. thats the whole ****ing point. why doesn he not stop evil? because if he did then he wouldn't have to judge anyone, would he? why doesn't God stand for good and not crush evil? because there is free will. do you have no logical brain that functions with any logical order? why des ht make the Israelites his "chosen people" when Jesus says blbalbla...i don't care really. the bible is corrupt and we all know that. the Quran is the only credible source to get this info from (and i can prove that it is the case, real evidence which you cannot debate with me about, so don't even try to waste my time on that), and the Quran says that the israelites WERE the chosen people until they corrupted their books and then God sent Jesus to fix that.

LOGIC.



He doesn't "extend" the teachings of Jesus, and he never takes it through violent means. you are another misinformed and undereducated person. i know EXACTLY what you will tell me if i reply to this, and i know EXACTLY what to say when you say that. and it pisses me off cuz it takes so much time for me to do it, yet it is so damn easy.

let me just tell you some facts, and spare me the time of having to run around getting the proof. i'm sure that after all you've read from me you can assume that i don't bull**** nor do i talk out of my ass.

1) the Quran was sent by God. the bible was written by humans. THAT is the difference.

2) the bible was made for one time and place, whlie the Quran was made for all times and places.

3) it doens't "extend" the bible, it just fixes all that **** that was messed up, adds on it things like democracy and human rights and closes it once and for all. and YES I CAN QUOTE ALL THIS. but please spare yourself the humiliation and spare me the time wasted.

4) The Quran is very tolerant and non-violent. i can right now pull out a verse of the Quran which tells all muslims to slaughter every pagan they see. lol. but you know something, i just read it. when i interpret it, it is a VERY different case. and i won't write down the interpretation now, but the conclusion is that no, muslims shouldn't kill and slaughter every pagan they see. so just reading things is stupid, you have to learn how to interpret them. if you don't (which is clearly the case) then read a good interpretation written by a moderate trustable person. i can reccomend some good ones i've found.

reading the Quran is one thing everybody can do! i can do it, you can do it and your mother can do it too. but not everybody can interpret it. until you learn to interpret the Quran, and until you get the necessary info to interpret it (which is extremely hard to find), then shut up and listen to those who do.

let me give you a list of what you need to interpret the Quran.

- Arabic language.
- arabic Quran.
- the hadith
- historial records of what happened when in the time of the Quran.
- "the reasons for revelation" books
- a brain (you can try to buy one of those)
- many other scholars to debate with
- Al-Azhar intepretations (which are crap)
- other interpretations you can find
- A LOT OF TIME.
- at least a year of practice and debate with knowledgable persons.

do you have all those? no. you don't. but, i do. so until you do, i don't want you talking about the Quran, because now you know that you don't know anything about it. so be quiet.

enough time wasted.

Many people have already cited specific verses in the Quran dealing with Allah interferring with free will. I can also add to others (2 from the OT and one from the NT). You also did say you believed in free will. I am not saying you don't believe in free will, I am saying the way things are in the scriptures it contradicts the idea of free will by God or Allah constantly rearing his head.

1) On the way back to Egypt, God attempts to kill Moses until Moses' wife circumsizes him with a stone!

2) The Pharoah's heart is hardened after each plague until the final one so as to demonstrate the power of god.

3) Jesus specifically prophesizes that Peter will deny him 3 times before the cock crows after the last supper.

Allah or God is supposed to be totally good correct? God is considered all knowing and all-power and all-good. This is the basis for following his will. Yet, if God is all good then why does he do actions that would be considered bad (especially since you believe in free will you must consider it bad) such as making the Israelites win or lose a battle or other examples like those aforementioned. I am only debating the concept of free will, and how you say it exists yet you admit in Allah's interferring with the exercise of free will.


As for your next four points.

1) If there is a paradox in the way Allah carries himself and the doctrine of free will then it seems to tell me more likely than not that the Quran was manmade also, or it has been corrupted horribly, so horribly that it fundamental falls in on itself.

2) The Bible is meant to extend forever, just like the Quran. Jesus' convenant was to be everlasting not just for the people of his day. And his lessons were how a christian should live their lives.

3) I am not concerned with the morals in the Quran. What disturbs me with the religion most, when addressing its validity, is saying one thing and then doing something else. That is what people do all the time, it doesn't seem to me that a God who represents the absolute of goodness would do such a thing if it is indeed correct. And if he is uncompromising in the face of evil and free will is a myth then why the hell do the muslims still lose?

4) Double talk is a sign of the hand of man. Absolute goodness would not tolerate something even the slightest bit evil in it. However, I did not address that at all. Your trying to steer away from what I'm talking about and go on discussing things that I never said. I am talking about the central fundamental issues not what the book says. I don't need to read the entire Quran to figure out was those are, all I needed was a few examples (and some that other people posted).

Once again address the fundamentals of what I've posted (I've tried to stick to them again, so you can't keep storming off about how much you've studied blah blah, how I should read the thing in arabic, its Allah's word so it must be true.) I am not questioning what the Quran says. I am questioning why it says one thing and does another in regards to FREE WILL.

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 02:05 PM
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/7568/allother/q2.htm

long but interesting

aserecuba
04-08-2004, 02:10 PM
according to muslims, you can not understand the Quran unless you learn arabic. i guess thats why there are so many sects within islam itself. everyone interprets it differently, but isnt it suppossed to be God's perfect word? why so many confussion within the muslim community itself.

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by AnotherScorpion
Trance,

I'm really surprised with your limited knowledge of Quran! The reason I say that is cuz more than dozen verse in Quran talks about how God purposely mislead some people! I can think of right now: 16:93, 14:4, 16:37, 14:27, 13:33, 7:155, 6:125, 13:27 and many more! For me, if God purposely dose that then he/she/it is Evil or malice! But I guess for believers, there is some sort of wisdom behind it! lol I guess I'm one of those people that God led to stray! huh

I never said I'm a scholar man.

but here's a long but suffiecient (for me) to understand this issue

http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/free.htm

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
according to muslims, you can not understand the Quran unless you learn arabic. i guess thats why there are so many sects within islam itself. everyone interprets it differently, but isnt it suppossed to be God's perfect word? why so many confussion within the muslim community itself.


hmmm...

not really.
the translation is there.

it's the interpretation of the translation that creates sects.

AnotherScorpion
04-08-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
I never said I'm a scholar man.

but here's a long but suffiecient (for me) to understand this issue

http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/free.htm

This site dosn't address the verses I posted

aserecuba
04-08-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
hmmm...

not really.
the translation is there.

it's the interpretation of the translation that creates sects.
look around more. when a muslim cant get his point across or finds contradiction he says that its there because its in arabic and he cant explain it to you, etc.

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
look around more. when a muslim cant get his point across or finds contradiction he says that its there because its in arabic and he cant explain it to you, etc.


a muslim

there are muslims who don't even know how many chapters are in the Quran?

That has nothing to do with the religion
but uneducated muslims

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by AnotherScorpion
This site dosn't address the verses I posted

true...

but in general it gives a sufficient point of view.

I'll look into those verses
and see what I can get .


thanks though

Jcfreak_02
04-11-2004, 02:23 AM
I believe in the Bible as the Word of God and do everything in my power to live as though it is True.

Hat
04-12-2004, 10:35 PM
Bump for more votes

XEastCoastHateX
04-13-2004, 02:00 AM
Im pagan..

Well Odinist to be exact.....funny only one other pagan vote...I wonder who it was

The Kurgan
04-13-2004, 03:32 AM
I worship trees (for we shall all have to stand judgement before them one day, and we owe our existance to their photosynthesis and respiration.)

Oh come on, it's more sensible than worshipping a sky god with magical powers. At least my religion is scientifically proven.

XEastCoastHateX
04-13-2004, 01:38 PM
Where does science have the right to judge people and there faith....

Jcfreak_02
04-13-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by XEastCoastHateX
Where does science have the right to judge people and there faith.... Science does not, science is merely the data and the inferences that can be implied from the data. Scientists are usually the ones that judge people and their faith. I do not think there are any problems with true science and true Christianity. There are many problems with bias scientists and true Christianity.

BigKazWSM747
04-13-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Jcfreak_02
Science does not, science is merely the data and the inferences that can be implied from the data. Scientists are usually the ones that judge people and their faith. I do not think there are any problems with true science and true Christianity. There are many problems with bias scientists and true Christianity.

I think its fair to say that the way we understand the world today through science does not lend itself very easily to christianity. If you think it does then please elaborate.

uhhduh
04-13-2004, 04:30 PM
Atheism

I think leaving out deism was bad. I think there are a lot more deists than we think (people who believe in god but not in organized religion)

Holy Ghost
04-13-2004, 05:45 PM
Christianity.

TranceNRG
04-13-2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by BigKazWSM747
I think its fair to say that the way we understand the world today through science does not lend itself very easily to christianity. If you think it does then please elaborate.


just out of curiousity...

have you found any science which is not compatible with Islam/Quran?

The Kurgan
04-14-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by XEastCoastHateX
Where does science have the right to judge people and there faith....

Nowhere, but I have a right to judge your spelling and poor use of English.

amrbassiouny
04-14-2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
just out of curiousity...

have you found any science which is not compatible with Islam/Quran?

well we all know that the Quran talks about some serious science which is perfectly in-sync with modern science. and i've looked around, the only way you can make the Quran look like it is in conflict with science is with the metaphorical parts of the Quran, but pretty much all of it is which is not metaphorical in nature is to the best of my knowledge perfect with both history and science.

The Kurgan
04-15-2004, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
well we all know that the Quran talks about some serious science which is perfectly in-sync with modern science. and i've looked around, the only way you can make the Quran look like it is in conflict with science is with the metaphorical parts of the Quran, but pretty much all of it is which is not metaphorical in nature is to the best of my knowledge perfect with both history and science.

You could say the same thing about the Bible, or even Narnia.

Hat
04-18-2004, 06:34 PM
BUMP for more votes

Hat
05-03-2004, 06:32 PM
BUMP for more votes

BigKazWSM747
05-03-2004, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
just out of curiousity...

have you found any science which is not compatible with Islam/Quran?

I am not familar with the Quran. FRom my understanding though both Judism, Christianity, and Islam share the same story of Adam and Eve. So no while science may or may not (I cannot say if it does, so in this instance I will assume it doesn't with islam) logic most likely would. And of course the character of Mohammed can be called into question as well.

CHIBI
05-04-2004, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
I beleive in me

WORD

BigKazWSM747
05-04-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
I beleive in me

I never took you to be a Descartian :D

SoCool
05-04-2004, 07:48 PM
I am a born again believer in Christ. For all who roll thier eyes at that comment, let me add, I believe the "church" as a whole does a poor job or representing and portraying Christ to the secular world (some churches do a great job). If anyone is interested, search the misc. forum and look under supernatural experiences. I came across that forum before this one and gave a brief explanation of my beliefs.

Bionik
05-04-2004, 07:52 PM
Where is Deism????

FatFat Bastard
05-04-2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Bionik
Where is Deism????

the only true movement

belive in god
belive in higher power/higher force..

but not in religion
not in heaven/hell, not in angels and other weird sh** that does not exist and never existed.

Heavily Armed
05-04-2004, 10:39 PM
Christian.

TranceNRG
05-05-2004, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
the only true movement

belive in god
belive in higher power/higher force..

but not in religion
not in heaven/hell, not in angels and other weird sh** that does not exist and never existed.

so what does God do then?
he just sits there and watches us?

FatFat Bastard
05-05-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
so what does God do then?
he just sits there and watches us?

Equilibrium and balance

Certainly not send people to heaven or hell.
it's too childish and used to be a pagen belive. organized religion was build on it.

TranceNRG
05-05-2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
Equilibrium and balance

Certainly not send people to heaven or hell.
it's too childish and used to be a pagen belive. organized religion was build on it.

that's your core belief, how everything is from paganism.

However you seem to forget that Paganism is copied from the divine religions.

tell me, how and where did pagans came up w/ such rituals?

edit:

what exactly do you mean by equilibrium and balance anywayz?

NPB
05-05-2004, 08:28 PM
I worship Thor, the God of Thunder. Through his following I have increased my bench press by 20 pounds and I couldn't have done it without him.

Odin be praised,

nPB

FatFat Bastard
05-06-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
that's your core belief, how everything is from paganism.

However you seem to forget that Paganism is copied from the divine religions.

tell me, how and where did pagans came up w/ such rituals?

edit:

what exactly do you mean by equilibrium and balance anywayz?

divine religions copied paganism not the other way around

religious people seem to think that god came up to the jewish people and gave them the comandments
one of those comandments was not to kill

but in reality there were commuities that practeced this years before. because if you kill all the people there would be no one left to kill.
so beliving that the religious god came down and magicly created the book that said "you must not kill" is nonsense.
same about everything...else
some people in the middle east before mohamad or the jews did not eat pigs meat.
because the hot weather used to spoil the meat and make people ill.
so somehow this managed to get included in the religious books.
did god say pigs meat is sinfull
NO
but the tradition got incorparated and overtime became holy
like superstition.

are you with me?

CerealKiller
05-07-2004, 09:57 PM
I have a lot of trouble with the word "believe" particularly when related to what I see are unanswerable questions about our world, so I always substitute the word "guess" because to me that's what a belief is, a "guess" about some unknown. I think there are things we know, things we don't know, and things we guess at.

I became an agnostic because I truly think the world would be a better place if we all acknowledged our agnosticism. If you will pardon the expression "I believe" that everyone is an agnostic.

It's just that we agnostics come in two categories -- those who acknowledge that we don't know the answers to unanswerable
questions; and those who pretend to know. That latter category includes the theists and the atheists (two sides of one coin)--both of whom suppose they know the answers to those unanswerable questions.

Bionik
05-07-2004, 10:07 PM
I used to be Agnostic, but after extensive investigation in the field of physics, I gradually became a sort of pantheist/deist. And yes, it is a sort of "guess," but it's an extremely probable one from what I've seen.

Example: It has wings, a roaring engine, it's flying in the air, it has rows of windows on both sides. I'm guessing it's probably an airplane. =P

You can't positively confirm the above scenario unless you have very detailed and up-close access to all the information regarding the mechanism. However, logic provides us with the ability to guess where probability arises and the absolute cannot be known.

CerealKiller
05-08-2004, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by Bionik
I used to be Agnostic, but after extensive investigation in the field of physics, I gradually became a sort of pantheist/deist. And yes, it is a sort of "guess," but it's an extremely probable one from what I've seen.

Example: It has wings, a roaring engine, it's flying in the air, it has rows of windows on both sides. I'm guessing it's probably an airplane. =P

You can't positively confirm the above scenario unless you have very detailed and up-close access to all the information regarding the mechanism. However, logic provides us with the ability to guess where probability arises and the absolute cannot be known.

There is verifiable evidence of the existence of airplanes. We know they exist. We don't have to guess.

The currently popular gods and their natures are a bit more mysterious.

Bionik
05-08-2004, 09:04 AM
There is verifiable evidence of the existence of airplanes. We know they exist. We don't have to guess.

I was speaking in terms of an isolated instance as the whole.

Hat
05-31-2004, 08:33 PM
BUMP for more votes

RedheadHardBody
06-02-2004, 12:22 PM
I'm Jewish, but I find organized religion hard to follow.

Hat
07-06-2004, 01:18 AM
And again, I shall bump for more votes

Hat
08-14-2004, 08:29 PM
To the top for more voting!

Twiggy316225
08-16-2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by uhhduh
Atheism

I think leaving out deism was bad. I think there are a lot more deists than we think (people who believe in god but not in organized religion)
Atheism

i thought that believe in god but not a religion was Agnosticism.



Origingally posted by XEastCoastHateX
Where does science have the right to judge people and there faith....
becauase faith is having a belief or and an idea. science is an idea that has been tested and proven.

bts327
08-16-2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Twiggy316225
Atheism

i thought that believe in god but not a religion was Agnosticism.



becauase faith is having a belief or and an idea. science is an idea that has been tested and proven.

An agnostic is someone claiming to be undecided on the whole "god debate".

Most of the entire world of science was built and sculpted by those who have or had faith. Most of science is mere speculation and model building, most of these models unproven. If you create the system which explains the phenomenon your attempting to discover you can tailor the system to explain whatever you wish. Just because something is proven doesn't mean that this is how it exists in "reality", all it means is that it has proven the usefulness of a model in relation to defining and manifesting our own realities. Science was built on and relies on faith, the same as religion.

These two systems are only important so long as we can find usefulness in them when tailoring our realities. The main difference between science and religion is that science has "proven" it's self to be more usefull when attempting to interact with or customize our realities.