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Ruthless4Life
04-05-2004, 04:07 PM
Two days ago, my mom invited some Christians over after dinner along with a pastor. When the pastor was talking about events happening today because of our sins, such as the terrorists killing innocent people, he started talking about the Israeli-Arab conflict.

During the conversation, I sprung up a comment about Arabs being Jews, in the context of Ishmael being the son of Abraham. The Christians outraged, and said that they are not, and Ishmael defied the plans of God where Abraham was supposed to have Issac through Sarah, and therefore Hagar and Ishmael are not blessed, implying that Arabs aren't either. The pastor went on about how God will continue to bless Israel, the Jews, being the chosen people.

I also asked him if Allah is the same God as the one Jews and Christians warship. He said no, and said that Allah is a man, implying that the whole religion is wrong.

Look. I support Israel - Judaism and Christianity. However, I still respect Islam, as it came about from the original Judaism religion. But saying implying that Arabs are bad because they are offsprings of Hagar, is going too far, and is rediculous. I believe that in the Old Testament, Hagar is offered to Abraham as his wife, not a prositute, therefore I believe that the argument how Ishmael is a bastard is unfound, only something rightwing Jewish and Christian leaders claim for political reasons.

I also talked to a Christian the next day, talking about this, asking his opinion. He believes that when God said he will bless the family of Abraham, he stayed true to his word, and bless his whole family, including Hagar and Ishmael, for he shall bring about a great Arab nation.

I believe the above also, but either Hagar and Ishmael is part of Abraham's family is still to be debated by political leaders, as with Allah and God either or not being one and the same.

As you can see, I will not be going to the church of these anti-Islam Christians who came to my house the other day. I am going to a church where the other Christian I talked to the next day, who believes that everyone is blessed by God.

Lynne
04-05-2004, 04:31 PM
Well, I understand your reservation about the previous Christian church. However, the New Testatment does not state that everyone will be blessed by God. Also, the Christians you spoke with are classic dispensationalists (most Baptists, Assemblies of God, EFCA, etc.). They believe that 144,000 in the book of Revelation will be Jewish evangelists during the Tribulation period and that God will save the remnant of Israel in a day (save as in born-again, spiritually reborn, final destination of heaven). The majority of the Christian church are made up of preterists who actually believe that God is finished with the Jews (Presbyterians, Reformed Church to name a few) and don't believe in the rapture of the church and so on (that is, there is only one final dispensation, the judgment). They believe they have replaced Israel under the New Convenant. People may get very animated and excited about what they believe, but because they interpret the bible in a certain way shouldn't be taken as some sort of hatred. They may be adamant because they so wholeheartedly believe that particular interpretation. That doesn't make them an awful person. To say "I believe all non-Christians are going to burn in the eternal lake of fire forever and ever" does not make one a person of hatred. It is a belief. The reason Christians evangelize are two-fold: out of love, so as not to see anyone perish, and as obedience to God (Mathew 27, the Great Commission). However, having said all of that, there is a lot of coldness and apathy in the church. This isn't what Christ taught and Christians will have to answer for their attitudes and thoughts before Christ one day.

If a "Christian" church is truly based on the New Testament, there is no way their doctrine can espouse that Jehovah God (Yahweh) is the same as Allah. You might find a pseudo-Christian church or a New Age Church that will teach what you want to hear though.

Whingman
04-05-2004, 04:34 PM
7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

Lynne
04-05-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Whingman
7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

Blessings, yes. I, personally, was talking about eternal destination, heaven vs. hell.

aserecuba
04-05-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Whingman
7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.


yes no way they can be the same.their natures are totally different.

FatFat Bastard
04-05-2004, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
Two days ago, my mom invited some Christians over after dinner along with a pastor. When the pastor was talking about events happening today because of our sins, such as the terrorists killing innocent people, he started talking about the Israeli-Arab conflict.

During the conversation, I sprung up a comment about Arabs being Jews, in the context of Ishmael being the son of Abraham. The Christians outraged, and said that they are not, and Ishmael defied the plans of God where Abraham was supposed to have Issac through Sarah, and therefore Hagar and Ishmael are not blessed, implying that Arabs aren't either. The pastor went on about how God will continue to bless Israel, the Jews, being the chosen people.

I also asked him if Allah is the same God as the one Jews and Christians warship. He said no, and said that Allah is a man, implying that the whole religion is wrong.

Look. I support Israel - Judaism and Christianity. However, I still respect Islam, as it came about from the original Judaism religion. But saying implying that Arabs are bad because they are offsprings of Hagar, is going too far, and is rediculous. I believe that in the Old Testament, Hagar is offered to Abraham as his wife, not a prositute, therefore I believe that the argument how Ishmael is a bastard is unfound, only something rightwing Jewish and Christian leaders claim for political reasons.

I also talked to a Christian the next day, talking about this, asking his opinion. He believes that when God said he will bless the family of Abraham, he stayed true to his word, and bless his whole family, including Hagar and Ishmael, for he shall bring about a great Arab nation.

I believe the above also, but either Hagar and Ishmael is part of Abraham's family is still to be debated by political leaders, as with Allah and God either or not being one and the same.

As you can see, I will not be going to the church of these anti-Islam Christians who came to my house the other day. I am going to a church where the other Christian I talked to the next day, who believes that everyone is blessed by God.

Arabs are not really jewish, relatives, but not the same.
Arabs and jews came out from a similar ethnic group. The
mideastern people split into jews/Arabs/many other..
acording to the old testemant hagar and Ismael are blesed and god promised them to become a large nation. which they have..

jews and christians and muslims worship very different things
they worship god, but their own religious gods.
Its complex, but the way each views... their god ... is very different from what others view theirs. so imo jews muslim christians worship 3 differnt gods.
its not a bad thing
beliving in religioun is like taking a slice of cake and saying that you slice is the only true peice of cake, and the rest are bread.
This is why i belive in god but not in any religioun...

Debaser
04-05-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Lynne
To say "I believe all non-Christians are going to burn in the eternal lake of fire forever and ever" does not make one a person of hatred.


I think it kind of does. What about those who have never heard of Christianity? Do they go to hell as well? Afterall, they are merely victims of never being introduced to the religion.

aserecuba
04-05-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Debaser
I think it kind of does. What about those who have never heard of Christianity? Do they go to hell as well? Afterall, they are merely victims of never being introduced to the religion.

nobody knows maybe thats why Christ say that the weak and kids were blessed because theirs was the kingdom of God. or something like this. perhaps if you were never had the chance to meet christ in this life you will after death . who knows?? nadie. i also wonder what will happen to those tribes in the amazon etc.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 02:36 AM
I notice alot of evangelic point of view.

The main point is... NO ONE, not a jew, not a christian nor a muslim can prove their beliefs. Everyone just has blind faith on their holy books.
Thr problem with humans, not religions, is pride.
each religious person believe his/her religion is the true one. But none never have any proof to back it up. They simply quote their holy books, which someone else can eaily reject as unauthentic.

once people start bringing the issue of superiority and inferiority among religions, they have all lost the true meaning of their own religions, which is peace and unity among all humans.

so rather than dividing the ONLY God that exists to three or more, look for the similarities and maybe then you'd realize how all the religions share the same core.

amrbassiouny
04-06-2004, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
I also asked him if Allah is the same God as the one Jews and Christians warship. He said no, and said that Allah is a man, implying that the whole religion is wrong.



this man seems to be talking straight out of his ass.

what? Allah is a man? lol. thats an ass talking! do you know what Allah means? let me tell you.

Allah is the arabic word for God. therefore, its like me telling a muslim friend of mine that God means man. stupid right?

and why do we call God Allah then? that is because the word Allah is very special. there is no plural form of the word Allah. hence, there is only one God, and so if i use the word "God" then you can say "Godess" or "Gods" but with Allah, its only Allah, no feminine and no plural.

this man is a classic example of a misinformed Christian. and btw, the Jews imo are not blessed anymore. they are the most hated people in the world. and they have been for quite a long time. that doesn't sound blessed to me. anyways, they won't be in their current state of power for much longer imo.

amrbassiouny
04-06-2004, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
I notice alot of evangelic point of view.

The main point is... NO ONE, not a jew, not a christian nor a muslim can prove their beliefs. Everyone just has blind faith on their holy books.


i can prove that the Quran is true and valid in terms that it was sent by God.

how?

lol, very easy. flip over to surah 67, verse 3. tell me what you read. "(Allah) who created seven layered skies..." ever read about how many layers are in the atmosphere? yes, you guessed it. seven. and btw, this verse is repeated exactly seven times in the Quran.

i can mention tens of these, let me give you just one more to prove my point. though this one is way more dramatic and surprising then the first i mentioned.

turn to surah 55 verses 19-20. "He has made the two seas flow freely, they meet. between them is a barrier which they cannot pass." do you know that between salt water and fresh water, there is a sort of barrier which stops the water from mixing? something natural, which was only discovered recently. and then the next verse says "which then of the bounties of your lord do you deny?" exactly.

the biggest proof that the bible and torah are true (though corrupt) is the Quran. being the mircale it is and having so many miracles within it, there is nothing stronger proof than this.

you seem to be talking out of your ass too. i used to have trouble beleiving in God. only when i started reading and learning religion did i ever find the truth. i am only convinced by scientific material proof, fairy tales are of no value to me. and in the quran i found all that proof before my eyes, something i could never deny. along with that i did some studying on the bible and Torah, but nothing as intense as i did with the Quran. very interesting and very real. i advise you to start reading and stop talking because you REALLY sound like you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

the only true thing you said was:


Originally posted by TranceNRG
so rather than dividing the ONLY God that exists to three or more, look for the similarities and maybe then you'd realize how all the religions share the same core.

i agree with you here, but the rest is no more than the result of being either underinformed or misinformed.

marek
04-06-2004, 10:22 AM
to Amrbassiony:

you can not "prove" that a religion is true or that Allah or God is true and the other is false. Gosh, IT WOULD NOT BE A FAITH BASED RELIGION, if it is "provable". A religion is based on faith by it's own nature. To say you can prove something is to change it into a science or physical fact. You can not do that my friend with God. Many want to and will unfortunately. I like what someone said about PRIDE above ! Basically in your arguments you are moving an ALLAH/Isalm religion into a definable set of codes and laws too....gosh, i am scarced when men think they have the mind of allah/god all figured out. I am guessing God is not real happy either. No one can win this argument, but are you really suppose too is my point!

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 01:26 PM
amrbassiouny...

when did you read your Quran last?!
I'm assuming you've recently discovered all those scientific proofs and all.

First of all I am a muslim. but I have already walked the way you are walking.
so I know everything you told and everything you'll tell me about quran and how it's true.

how many philosophy classes have you taken?!
how old are you?!

I just want to know if you'll reach where I am right now :)

affy
04-06-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
this man seems to be talking straight out of his ass.

what? Allah is a man? lol. thats an ass talking! do you know what Allah means? let me tell you.

Allah is the arabic word for God. therefore, its like me telling a muslim friend of mine that God means man. stupid right?

and why do we call God Allah then? that is because the word Allah is very special. there is no plural form of the word Allah. hence, there is only one God, and so if i use the word "God" then you can say "Godess" or "Gods" but with Allah, its only Allah, no feminine and no plural.

this man is a classic example of a misinformed Christian. and btw, the Jews imo are not blessed anymore. they are the most hated people in the world. and they have been for quite a long time. that doesn't sound blessed to me. anyways, they won't be in their current state of power for much longer imo.

bump to my knowlege allah is just a arabic word that means God. Its still the same belief, Indians call god Rabba, Khoda, Bagwan, im sure other languages have there own way of saying it. It doesn't mean that they have beliefs in a different God.

FatFat Bastard
04-06-2004, 06:48 PM
this man is a classic example of a misinformed Christian. and btw, the Jews imo are not blessed anymore. they are the most hated people in the world. and they have been for quite a long time. that doesn't sound blessed to me. anyways, they won't be in their current state of power for much longer imo.


this forum is about respecting others
try to avoid posting ignorant crap

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by affy
bump to my knowlege allah is just a arabic word that means God. Its still the same belief, Indians call god Rabba, Khoda, Bagwan, im sure other languages have there own way of saying it. It doesn't mean that they have beliefs in a different God.

and you call is AhuraMazda, right? ;)

amrbassiouny
04-07-2004, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by marek
to Amrbassiony:

you can not "prove" that a religion is true or that Allah or God is true and the other is false. Gosh, IT WOULD NOT BE A FAITH BASED RELIGION, if it is "provable". A religion is based on faith by it's own nature. To say you can prove something is to change it into a science or physical fact. You can not do that my friend with God. Many want to and will unfortunately. I like what someone said about PRIDE above ! Basically in your arguments you are moving an ALLAH/Isalm religion into a definable set of codes and laws too....gosh, i am scarced when men think they have the mind of allah/god all figured out. I am guessing God is not real happy either. No one can win this argument, but are you really suppose too is my point!

here, http://hkusua.hku.hk/~h0360593/videofiles/The_Quran_and_Modern_Science.pdf

download that, if this is not proof enough then i really don't know what is. but then still, if you are close-minded enough to not accept that proof, then i can tell you how science itself proves the existance of God.


Originally posted by TranceNRG
amrbassiouny...

when did you read your Quran last?!
I'm assuming you've recently discovered all those scientific proofs and all.

First of all I am a muslim. but I have already walked the way you are walking.
so I know everything you told and everything you'll tell me about quran and how it's true.

how many philosophy classes have you taken?!
how old are you?!

I just want to know if you'll reach where I am right now :)

yes, i know where most of these scientific miracles are. i didn't discover them myself though, i just read this PDF file and then checked them myself. here, again, http://hkusua.hku.hk/~h0360593/videofiles/The_Quran_and_Modern_Science.pdf

i am 18. and i've been independantly studying religion in depth for quite a while now. and at the moment i can take on any muslim who has studied in the azhar or done any formal education on this in a debate with a great amount of confidence (which i do often, and i haven't lost any debates yet).

when did i last read the Quran? just a while ago. i pray 5 times a day so technically i do it everyday.

did i every study philosophy? no, didn't get the chance to yet. but i did also do a lot of indpendant reading on it. i'm the kind of guy who likes to know everything, and i try to know as much as i can. and so i read and read and read.

i doubt you ever went through the stage i'm going through now too.

TranceNRG
04-07-2004, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
here, http://hkusua.hku.hk/~h0360593/videofiles/The_Quran_and_Modern_Science.pdf

download that, if this is not proof enough then i really don't know what is. but then still, if you are close-minded enough to not accept that proof, then i can tell you how science itself proves the existance of God.



yes, i know where most of these scientific miracles are. i didn't discover them myself though, i just read this PDF file and then checked them myself. here, again, http://hkusua.hku.hk/~h0360593/videofiles/The_Quran_and_Modern_Science.pdf

i am 18. and i've been independantly studying religion in depth for quite a while now. and at the moment i can take on any muslim who has studied in the azhar or done any formal education on this in a debate with a great amount of confidence (which i do often, and i haven't lost any debates yet).

when did i last read the Quran? just a while ago. i pray 5 times a day so technically i do it everyday.

did i every study philosophy? no, didn't get the chance to yet. but i did also do a lot of indpendant reading on it. i'm the kind of guy who likes to know everything, and i try to know as much as i can. and so i read and read and read.

i doubt you ever went through the stage i'm going through now too.


good luck
I hope you find the answer to all your questions

amrbassiouny
04-07-2004, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
good luck
I hope you find the answer to all your questions

appreciated. i think i already did find the answer though...and thats why i'm out debating whenever i get the chance to so that i can be 100% sure i'm right...so i'd like a good challenge also if you can give me one :-D.

affy
04-07-2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
and you call is AhuraMazda, right? ;)

Yup:D. But when i speak farsi (or attempt at speaking it:p) i still refer to God as 'khoda'.

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by amrbassiouny
appreciated. i think i already did find the answer though...and thats why i'm out debating whenever i get the chance to so that i can be 100% sure i'm right...so i'd like a good challenge also if you can give me one :-D.

but seems you like calling names and you get mad and frustrated easily.

I dun wanna talk outta my ass, so I need to take it easy when talking to you :P

TranceNRG
04-08-2004, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by affy
Yup:D. But when i speak farsi (or attempt at speaking it:p) i still refer to God as 'khoda'.

yup
Khoda
have you read Avesta?!
is there simply farsi or English version of it around.
I like to read it once.

amrbassiouny
04-08-2004, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
but seems you like calling names and you get mad and frustrated easily.

I dun wanna talk outta my ass, so I need to take it easy when talking to you :P

i'm sorry dude seriously. i don't get frustrated or mad, its just that i hate when people get ignorant and so i do my best to give out the image of being very confident and knowledgable (which i am) and so it will keep anybody who doesn't know 100% what they are talking about from wasting my time (time is scarce and i take it seirously, and when a retard, and i'm not referring to you, comes over with stupid evidence to waste my time, i just can't tolerate it.

but serious, i'm sorry if i ever offend any of you, and after this post now i respect you dude. take care.