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Heisman
04-05-2004, 09:06 AM
I'm jewish. If anyone wants to discuss Judaism, do it here.

Juicematic
04-05-2004, 09:30 AM
I like Jewish girls. They have slamming bodies.

aserecuba
04-05-2004, 09:32 AM
nm

Demorak
04-05-2004, 11:25 AM
So then you look down on all us goj's?

Lynne
04-05-2004, 01:35 PM
Happy Passover to all my Jewish friends.

Lynne

aserecuba
04-05-2004, 02:18 PM
.

Lynne
04-05-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
.

What does a period mean???? I'm not Jewish, I don't get it.

Ryo
04-05-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Juicematic
I like Jewish girls. They have slamming bodies.


Some have really nice breasts.

Dorian
04-05-2004, 03:04 PM
I have a question... Why is it that Jewish people beleive they are the chosen ones ? I mean after all The bible of christianity claims that it was The Jews who killed the Christ. f I am not mistaken it also states in one your holy books that we are infidels and should be put to death and are not worthy of God. I could be wrong, but I remember someone at a church read this to me. (we, the ones who are not jewish) are not deemed worthy of the scraps that fall off of your plates and onto the floor. This too has been read to me. So if your God is so loving why is this what he teaches you people? I also see man made rituals that you are made to keep.

LordNeon
04-05-2004, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
I have a question... Why is it that Jewish people beleive they are the chosen ones ? I mean after all The bible of christianity claims that it was The Jews who killed the Christ. f I am not mistaken it also states in one your holy books that we are infidels and should be put to death and are not worthy of God. I could be wrong, but I remember someone at a church read this to me. (we, the ones who are not jewish) are not deemed worthy of the scraps that fall off of your plates and onto the floor. This too has been read to me. So if your God is so loving why is this what he teaches you people? I also see man made rituals that you are made to keep.

Looking at the top sticky on this board, it seems to me that this post would be deleted if it weren't coming from a moderator.

Just saying.

Ryo
04-05-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by LordNeon
Looking at the top sticky on this board, it seems to me that this post would be deleted if it weren't coming from a moderator.

Just saying.

Naw, just look at Starsky's posts, his are extreme and he never gets banned. Dorian was still stating facts. The Talmud has some extreme slanders about Christ and the Virgin Mary as well, and refers gentiles as cattle.

Ruthless4Life
04-05-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
I have a question... Why is it that Jewish people beleive they are the chosen ones ? I mean after all The bible of christianity claims that it was The Jews who killed the Christ. f I am not mistaken it also states in one your holy books that we are infidels and should be put to death and are not worthy of God. I could be wrong, but I remember someone at a church read this to me. (we, the ones who are not jewish) are not deemed worthy of the scraps that fall off of your plates and onto the floor. This too has been read to me. So if your God is so loving why is this what he teaches you people? I also see man made rituals that you are made to keep.

Not only do Jews believe that they are the chosen ones, Christians do too. Ultimately, Christianity is a branch of Judaism, and the people who started Christianity were Jews. Jesus is a Jew, and so were his deciples. It was the Jewish political leaders that brainwashed a number of Jews into believing that Jesus is a fake, but also, the people that believed in Jesus were also Jews.

Therefore, it would be wrong to say Jews killed Jesus, because Jesus himself was one and so were his believers.

Dorian
04-05-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by LordNeon
Looking at the top sticky on this board, it seems to me that this post would be deleted if it weren't coming from a moderator.

Just saying.

actually no.. this is a serious set of questions with no flame intended. I myself do not close stuff if I see it of serious nature.
Now if I came outr and started name calling then that would be different.
And just because I am a mod makes no difference, so do not go there.

Ryo
04-05-2004, 03:19 PM
This "chosen" crap makes no sense. Chosen for what?

LordNeon
04-05-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Ryo
Naw, just look at Starsky's posts, his are extreme and he never gets banned. Dorian was still stating facts. The Talmud has some extreme slanders about Christ and the Virgin Mary as well, and refers gentiles as cattle.

The Talmud doesn't have slanders against Christ. It came more than a thousand years before he existed.

There are some rabbis who have written nasty things about the Gentiles over time, but come on - Christian churches have had plenty of nasty things to say about the Jews over the last 2000 years themselves.

Ruthless4Life
04-05-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Ryo
This "chosen" crap makes no sense. Chosen for what?

"Israelites, as respects their sacred privileges as the chosen people of God. "To other races we owe the splendid inheritance of modern civilization and secular culture; but the religious education of mankind has been the gift of the Jew alone.""

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/jew.html

Dorian
04-05-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
Not only do Jews believe that they are the chosen ones, Christians do too. Ultimately, Christianity is a branch of Judaism, and the people who started Christianity were Jews. Jesus is a Jew, and so were his deciples. It was the Jewish political leaders that brainwashed a number of Jews into believing that Jesus is a fake, but also, the people that believed in Jesus were also Jews.

Therefore, it would be wrong to say Jews killed Jesus, because Jesus himself was one and so were his believers.

I do agreee that christiuans also believe this. I find it rather odd though that the books that the jewish religion follows though, considers those of us who are not jewish , dogs and lower than animals, I guess what I am asking here is do you beleive that this is the truth? The books that is. Do you consider that we are lower than the animals and deserve to die? That you are the only ones promised to be in heaven?

Ruthless4Life
04-05-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
I do agreee that christiuans also believe this. I find it rather odd though that the books that the jewish religion follows though, considers those of us who are not jewish , dogs and lower than animals, I guess what I am asking here is do you beleive that this is the truth? The books that is. Do you consider that we are lower than the animals and deserve to die? That you are the only ones promised to be in heaven?

I'll have to find out.

BTW, I'm not a Jew, so I guess maybe we're in the same boat. ;)

Ryo
04-05-2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
"Israelites, as respects their sacred privileges as the chosen people of God. "To other races we owe the splendid inheritance of modern civilization and secular culture; but the religious education of mankind has been the gift of the Jew alone.""

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/jew.html

So your saying it is a supremacist isolated cult belief?

LordNeon
04-05-2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
I do agreee that christiuans also believe this. I find it rather odd though that the books that the jewish religion follows though, considers those of us who are not jewish , dogs and lower than animals, I guess what I am asking here is do you beleive that this is the truth? The books that is. Do you consider that we are lower than the animals and deserve to die? That you are the only ones promised to be in heaven?

Seems like every Western religion thinks this way about themselves.

Ruthless4Life
04-05-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Ryo
So your saying it is a supremacist isolated cult belief?

I don't know. I don't speak on behalf of the bible nor God. I'm only saying what the documents are saying.

Crimson-Model
04-05-2004, 03:28 PM
Ethnocentricity maybe?
The Torah, The Koran and The Bible all discuss the topic that they are the right religion...

LordNeon
04-05-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Ryo
So your saying it is a supremacist isolated cult belief?

The difference between a "supremacist isolated cult belief" and a religion, as far as I can tell, is a few million people.

Ruthless4Life
04-05-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by LordNeon
The difference between a "supremacist isolated cult belief" and a religion, as far as I can tell, is a few million people.

And the tax deductables from the government.

Ryo
04-05-2004, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by LordNeon
The difference between a "supremacist isolated cult belief" and a religion, as far as I can tell, is a few million people.

Well read the quote Ruthless posted. It is basically saying that they need to take over the world through education. Also, it states that Israelites have that right "alone" among all races.

LordNeon
04-05-2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Ryo
Well read the quote Ruthless posted. It is basically saying that they need to take over the world through education. Also, it states that Israelites have that right "alone" among all races.

Doesn't sound much different to me than Christians' insistence they need to convert every last heathen on earth to the ways of Christ.

Dorian
04-05-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by LordNeon
Doesn't sound much different to me than Christians' insistence they need to convert every last heathen on earth to the ways of Christ.

not just christians, but others sects as well beleive this way. The church of christian scientology, the Lutherans, the catholics, the .... Get my meaning? But I am curious as to the 'other' beleifs out there as well.

Lynne
04-05-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by LordNeon
Doesn't sound much different to me than Christians' insistence they need to convert every last heathen on earth to the ways of Christ.

If you are talking about Judaism, aren't Jews forbidden to evangelize. In fact, isn't very difficult to convert to Judaism???

Lynne

Ryo
04-05-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Lynne
If you are talking about Judaism, aren't Jews forbidden to evangelize. In fact, isn't very difficult to convert to Judaism???

Lynne

I have been wondering about this too. I hope Heisman can give some info.

Wheytgain
04-05-2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Ryo
I have been wondering about this too. I hope Heisman can give some info.

Converting to Judiasm is nothing like converting to Christianity. It takes years of study and a willing Rabbi among other things.

irpker
04-05-2004, 05:19 PM
What is it with tatoo's and circumcisions?

I remember hearing you can't go to heaven if you have a tattoo, but you are obligated as a jewish male, to have a circumcision. One form of body mutilation is required but another form of body mutilation is forbidden? Consistency please.

Heisman
04-05-2004, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Ryo
I have been wondering about this too. I hope Heisman can give some info.

Oh great. Now all the pressure is on me. :mad: :D

First of all, somebody PM Assassinator and tell him about this thread. I think he is orthodox, which means that he knows a lot more about this then I do and that he probably isn't available right now since his Seder is going to go on until 3:00 possibly :o. Of course, he lives just outside of Tel Aviv so I don't know if he is done or not.

Lynne, thanks. I had a great Seder with my family.

I don't really know good answers to all of these questions, but I know people who do. I'll right them down and ask some more knowledgable people (my grandfather, maybe my rabbi although she is always busy) what the answers are. I'm pretty sure that my grandfather will be able to answer all of these questions. He has read hundreds (actually over a thousand) different books on judaism and religion in general.

FatFat Bastard
04-05-2004, 07:53 PM
speaking of Judaism



Prime minister condemns attack on Montreal Jewish school
Last Updated Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:36:06
MONTREAL - Prime Minister Paul Martin has called the attack on a Jewish elementary school in Montreal "an act of violence directed at all Canadians" that will not be tolerated.

Martin joined community leaders and police in condemning the attack on the United Talmud Torah elementary school. "The attack against a place of learning, where young children gather, is an offence against everything that Canadians cherish. But the assault was not directed against the Jewish community of Montreal. It was an act of violence directed at all Canadians and at our freedom."


Police say a fire in the school library early Monday morning was deliberately set – and they're calling it a hate crime.

Workers spent the day vacuuming up the water left by firefighters, but the library is beyond hope. The room is black and charred and almost all the books are destroyed. Police say the fire started after someone threw a flammable substance through the library window.

At the front door police found a note referring to the Middle East, but they won't give any more details.

Not only did the prime minister denounce the attack, so did the mayor of Montreal, members of Parliament and Justice Minister Irwin Cotler. They gathered in the school gymnasium to show support for the Jewish community.

Cotler used to be a student at the school. He says he's just relieved there were no injuries. "Absolutely nothing ... can justify such an act," he said.

"We unequivocally condemn these acts of racist hate. We unequivocally condemn these racist hate crimes. And we will not be silent. And we will not be intimidated," said Cotler.

Quebec Premier Jean Charest issued an official statement condemning the fire, saying that "such gestures are intolerable" and called on all Quebecers to denounce the act.

Last month, B'nai Brith Canada reported an increase in anti-Semitic incidents across the country in 2003, saying there were almost 600 cases of violence, harassment and vandalism against Jews and over 100 such incidents in Quebec alone.

Last week, Toronto police arrested three teenagers in connection with a string of anti-Semitic hate crimes two weekends ago that included the desecration of a Jewish cemetery.

Parents and children gathered outside the school to show their support, but the experience seems to have left a mark on some of the students. Eleven-year-old Isabelle Malka, a Grade 5 student, says she's "terrified."

No one was hurt because the school is closed for Passover. The school will reopen on April 15.

Some parents say they are concerned about the safety of their children. Police say security will be increased at all Jewish institutions in Montreal throughout the Passover period.



http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/05/mtlschool040405

FatFat Bastard
04-05-2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
I do agreee that christiuans also believe this. I find it rather odd though that the books that the jewish religion follows though, considers those of us who are not jewish , dogs and lower than animals, I guess what I am asking here is do you beleive that this is the truth? The books that is. Do you consider that we are lower than the animals and deserve to die? That you are the only ones promised to be in heaven?

Dorian were did you read this stuff?
....dogs and lower than animals... this is BS
where did you get this from ********** or something? did you ever walk in to a jewish temple, and talk to rabbis and got this answer or youve heard this from someone?

Jewsih people have 5 basic fundamental commands
1. to live
2.to have a family
3.to be a community
4.to respect creation/nature
5.to study torah for jews, or obay the noahide covenant for the rest.
remeber Naoh was not a jew
but jews respect him a lot
so considering him a dog would not be very appropriate.

TranceNRG
04-06-2004, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Ruthless4Life
"Israelites, as respects their sacred privileges as the chosen people of God. "To other races we owe the splendid inheritance of modern civilization and secular culture; but the religious education of mankind has been the gift of the Jew alone.""

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/jew.html


ok reading quotes like this... and reading many more quotes w/ the same message, I cannot understand why jews and christians point at Islam and regard Islam the religion that promotes hate and violence.

to me it seems all religions, if wrongfully interpreted, condone the same method of violence to stay in and gain more power.

Juicematic
04-06-2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by irpker
What is it with tatoo's and circumcisions?

I remember hearing you can't go to heaven if you have a tattoo, but you are obligated as a jewish male, to have a circumcision. One form of body mutilation is required but another form of body mutilation is forbidden? Consistency please.

The tattoo's are forbidden as a desecration of the flesh. The circumcision is part of the covenent that Abraham made with God.

Canadian Nanook
04-06-2004, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Wheytgain
Converting to Judiasm is nothing like converting to Christianity. It takes years of study and a willing Rabbi among other things.

It's a lot more difficult than that. First, the rabbis tell you why you shouldn't convert, then if you still want to they see if it is because you are devoted to it. then you must study for a long time so as to understand Judaism. The rabbi then asks again if you are sure and explains again why you shouldn't convert. If you still want to they then have to circumcize the male and have him, "born again" by giving him a new name as the son of abraham. So if your name was Noah, then you would be Noach Ben Avraham. Now you are a jew and must follow all of the rules of Judaism.

Canadian Nanook
04-06-2004, 11:27 AM
Judaism was the first monotheistic religion and therefore was the basis for all other monotheistic religions. It led to christianity, and then christianity led to Islam, simlpy starting the lineage

Canadian Nanook
04-06-2004, 11:31 AM
Judaism doesn't accept Jesus and did not kill jesus. The Jews at the time did not like what jesus was doing and told the romans what Jesus was doing, causing an uprising, that is why they crucified Jesus. The Jews do not accept jesus because we feel he was a false prophet. There were many false prophets at the time and the jews disregarded the ones who wanted to change the Jewish way of worship. Jesus told everyone that they did not need to follow the torah, which was given down by god himself and therefore we felt that Jesus was in conflict with god and therefore was a false prophet. Anyone against god's word was against Judaism and that was why we did not consider Jesus as a prophet or a messiah

Canadian Nanook
04-06-2004, 11:35 AM
and a question, how do you guys keep the passover food still tasting edible and eating healthy, it's so gross
damn Matzah
I know a bunch of non jews who love it, oh god, why?
and a happy pesach and good yon tiv to everyone

Heisman
04-06-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
and a question, how do you guys keep the passover food still tasting edible and eating healthy, it's so gross
damn Matzah
I know a bunch of non jews who love it, oh god, why?
and a happy pesach and good yon tiv to everyone

Thanks bro.

I don't see why people like Matzah. I can only eat it with condiments.

I'm basically on the Atkins diet now, with a few exceptions.

Ryo
04-06-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by LordNeon
The Talmud doesn't have slanders against Christ. It came more than a thousand years before he existed.

There are some rabbis who have written nasty things about the Gentiles over time, but come on - Christian churches have had plenty of nasty things to say about the Jews over the last 2000 years themselves.

Just do a quick search on the Talmud. You will find a lot of excerpts.

Heisman
04-06-2004, 02:32 PM
On a sidenote that doesn't have to do with anything, my great great grandfather, Abraham Levinson, is I believe the only person to memorize the entire Talmud.

blaker00
04-07-2004, 03:50 AM
bro matzah-bry is like the best food ever made to man

The Ukrainian
04-07-2004, 06:22 PM
about the Bible and Torah (im just saying what ive read about the chosen people) The jews were Gods chosen poeple because he knew that they would endure alot of hardship and wen the Day of Judgment comes Jews have a second chance but other people have to be faithfull and beleive the Christ is the only Savoir, is this right or are all my facts either messed up or wrong?

FatFat Bastard
04-07-2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by The Ukrainian
about the Bible and Torah (im just saying what ive read about the chosen people) The jews were Gods chosen poeple because he knew that they would endure alot of hardship and wen the Day of Judgment comes Jews have a second chance but other people have to be faithfull and beleive the Christ is the only Savoir, is this right or are all my facts either messed up or wrong?

hi i am a ukrainian jew, i was born in lvov.
i don't think jews were gods chosen people
because this would make god a supremasist and god is not a supremasist.
all are equal before god threfore no one is chosen.
jew took many important ancient belives and put it in a book.
nothing to do with god.
they used to belive in many gods and one god was more powerfull then the rest
ELL wich was in human from
Elloyim is what the jews belive in

remeber in the old restement it says we were created from dust but in the image of god.
well no kidding.

The Ukrainian
04-07-2004, 06:44 PM
{[remeber in the old restement it says we were created from dust but in the image of god.
well no kidding.}]

Errr. i thought it was clay, but lets say u were god and u knew what horrors the jews would face throughout history, wouldnt u give them a second chance, too?

FatFat Bastard
04-07-2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by The Ukrainian
{[remeber in the old restement it says we were created from dust but in the image of god.
well no kidding.}]

Errr. i thought it was clay, but lets say u were god and u knew what horrors the jews would face throughout history, wouldnt u give them a second chance, too?

a secound chance for what?
who says that they had the first chance?

The Ukrainian
04-08-2004, 11:55 AM
well they get a chance becuase they were the most hated pple in all of time, starting from slaves in egypt to the holocost, you cant tell that another group of pple have had it this bad.

Dorian
04-08-2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
Dorian were did you read this stuff?
....dogs and lower than animals... this is BS
where did you get this from ********** or something? did you ever walk in to a jewish temple, and talk to rabbis and got this answer or youve heard this from someone?

Jewsih people have 5 basic fundamental commands
1. to live
2.to have a family
3.to be a community
4.to respect creation/nature
5.to study torah for jews, or obay the noahide covenant for the rest.
remeber Naoh was not a jew
but jews respect him a lot
so considering him a dog would not be very appropriate.


Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Rotze'ach 2:11: "A Jew who killed a righteous gentile is not executed in a court of law. It says in Exodus 21:14, 'If a man schemes against his fellow man and kills the man deliberately, take him away from the altar and put him to death.' But a gentile is not considered a man, and even more so, a Jew is not executed for killing an unrighteous gentile."

aserecuba
04-08-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
Judaism doesn't accept Jesus and did not kill jesus. The Jews at the time did not like what jesus was doing and told the romans what Jesus was doing, causing an uprising, that is why they crucified Jesus. The Jews do not accept jesus because we feel he was a false prophet.

thats interesting of you to say. now lets look at the other side of the coin. i got the following from the net. a little research never hurts.

The Jews rejected Jesus because He failed, in their eyes, to do what they expected their Messiah to do--destroy evil and all their enemies, in this case the Romans, and establish an eternal kingdom with Israel as the preeminent nation in the world. The prophecies in Isaiah and Psalm 22 described a suffering Messiah who would be persecuted and killed, but they chose to focus on those prophecies that discussed His glorious victories, not His crucifixion.

take note that the following was written abuot 880 - 1500 years before Christ's birth.

issiah:
53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;
when he makes himself an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.
53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out his soul to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

and palsms:


1 2 For the leader; according to "The deer of the dawn." A psalm of David.
2
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?
3
My God, I call by day, but you do not answer; by night, but I have no relief.
4
Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the glory of Israel.
5
In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted and you rescued them.
6
To you they cried out and they escaped; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
7
3 But I am a worm, hardly human, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
8
All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me:
9
"You relied on the LORD--let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you."
10
Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother's breast.
11
Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.
12
Do not stay far from me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help.
13
4 Many bulls surround me; fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me.
14
They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar.
15
Like water my life drains away; all my bones grow soft. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me.
16
5 As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me in the dust of death.
17
Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me. So wasted are my hands and feet
18
that I can count all my bones. They stare at me and gloat;
19
they divide my garments among them; for my clothing they cast lots.
20
But you, LORD, do not stay far off; my strength, come quickly to help me.
21
Deliver me from the sword, my forlorn life from the teeth of the dog.
22
Save me from the lion's mouth, my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.
23
6 Then I will proclaim your name to the assembly; in the community I will praise you:
24
"You who fear the LORD, give praise! All descendants of Jacob, give honor; show reverence, all descendants of Israel!
25
7 For God has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch, Did not turn away from me, but heard me when I cried out.
26
I will offer praise in the great assembly; my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him.
27
8 The poor will eat their fill; those who seek the LORD will offer praise. May your hearts enjoy life forever!"
28
All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the LORD; All the families of nations will bow low before you.
29
For kingship belongs to the LORD, the ruler over the nations.
30
9 All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
31
And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.
32
The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.


yes there were many false prophets. but when they were killed what did their followers do? they fled. Only Christ followers died for the faith. they died horrible deaths too. i believe one of them was even cruxified, but he asked to be cruxified upside down because he was not worthy of being cruxified in the same way Christ was.

aserecuba
04-08-2004, 01:04 PM
heres what happenned to the apostles:

John The Baptist

John The Baptist was beheaded by Herod. (Matthew 14:1-12) (see Herod The Great and The Herods)

Stephen

The account of Stephen is very well documented in the Bible (Acts chapters 6 and 7). He is generally regarded as the first Christian martyr.

It has been estimated that about 2,000 Christians, along with Nicanor, one of the seven deacons (Acts 6:5), also suffered martyrdom during the great persecution that arose after Stephen (Acts 8:1).

James, the brother of John

James was "put to death with the sword" by King Herod (Acts 12:2)

Philip

Reportedly suffered martyrdom at Heliopolis, in Phrygia. He was severely flogged, imprisoned, and later crucified.

Matthew

The former tax collector, he was killed with a halberd (a pike fitted with an ax head) in Nadabah.

James

Stoned and clubbed to death in Jerusalem.

Matthias

He was stoned, then beheaded at Jerusalem.

Andrew, the brother of Peter

He was crucified on an X-shaped cross, two ends of which were in the ground. Hence the origin of the term, "St. Andrew's Cross".

Mark

Mark was reportedly torn to pieces by a mob in Alexandria after he told them that their god, a statue carved from stone, was worthless (see Images and Idols).

Peter

Peter was reportedly crucified, upside down, during the reign of Emperor Nero.

Paul

Beheaded, or torn to pieces by wild animals in the arena, during the time of Nero. See On The Road To Damascus, Paul In Athens, Paul In Rome, Paul's First Missionary Journey, Paul's Journey To Rome, Paul's Second Missionary Journey and Paul's Third Missionary Journey.

Jude

The brother of James, often called Thaddeus. He was crucified at Edessa.

Bartholomew

Tortured and crucified in India.

Thomas

Thomas was reportedly killed with a spear in India.

Luke

Luke was the author of the Gospel which is called by his name, and also probably the Book Of Acts. One account states that he died of old age, while another says that he was hanged in an olive tree in Greece.

Simon the Zealot

He traveled widely, and is believed to have been crucified in what is today Britain.

John

John took care of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (not the mother of God), after the Crucifixion (John 19:26-27). He went on to write the Book of Revelation while a prisoner on Patmos. He may be the only apostle who escaped a violent death.

Barnabas

Barnabas is believed to have been killed about 10 years after Paul.

FatFat Bastard
04-08-2004, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Rotze'ach 2:11: "A Jew who killed a righteous gentile is not executed in a court of law. It says in Exodus 21:14, 'If a man schemes against his fellow man and kills the man deliberately, take him away from the altar and put him to death.' But a gentile is not considered a man, and even more so, a Jew is not executed for killing an unrighteous gentile."

Dorian what is you source for this information?
or do you know hebrew?

Moses Miamonides is an Sparadic Religious scolar
he does not represent the Ashkanazi jews

once again Noah was a gentile.
and no we don't hate christians or muslims
its just in history they had the tendecy of using their holy books to justify supprion of jews.

FatFat Bastard
04-08-2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
heres what happenned to the apostles:

John The Baptist

John The Baptist was beheaded by Herod. (Matthew 14:1-12) (see Herod The Great and The Herods)

Stephen

The account of Stephen is very well documented in the Bible (Acts chapters 6 and 7). He is generally regarded as the first Christian martyr.

It has been estimated that about 2,000 Christians, along with Nicanor, one of the seven deacons (Acts 6:5), also suffered martyrdom during the great persecution that arose after Stephen (Acts 8:1).

James, the brother of John

James was "put to death with the sword" by King Herod (Acts 12:2)

Philip

Reportedly suffered martyrdom at Heliopolis, in Phrygia. He was severely flogged, imprisoned, and later crucified.

Matthew

The former tax collector, he was killed with a halberd (a pike fitted with an ax head) in Nadabah.

James

Stoned and clubbed to death in Jerusalem.

Matthias

He was stoned, then beheaded at Jerusalem.

Andrew, the brother of Peter

He was crucified on an X-shaped cross, two ends of which were in the ground. Hence the origin of the term, "St. Andrew's Cross".

Mark

Mark was reportedly torn to pieces by a mob in Alexandria after he told them that their god, a statue carved from stone, was worthless (see Images and Idols).

Peter

Peter was reportedly crucified, upside down, during the reign of Emperor Nero.

Paul

Beheaded, or torn to pieces by wild animals in the arena, during the time of Nero. See On The Road To Damascus, Paul In Athens, Paul In Rome, Paul's First Missionary Journey, Paul's Journey To Rome, Paul's Second Missionary Journey and Paul's Third Missionary Journey.

Jude

The brother of James, often called Thaddeus. He was crucified at Edessa.

Bartholomew

Tortured and crucified in India.

Thomas

Thomas was reportedly killed with a spear in India.

Luke

Luke was the author of the Gospel which is called by his name, and also probably the Book Of Acts. One account states that he died of old age, while another says that he was hanged in an olive tree in Greece.

Simon the Zealot

He traveled widely, and is believed to have been crucified in what is today Britain.

John

John took care of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (not the mother of God), after the Crucifixion (John 19:26-27). He went on to write the Book of Revelation while a prisoner on Patmos. He may be the only apostle who escaped a violent death.

Barnabas

Barnabas is believed to have been killed about 10 years after Paul.

whats your point?

aserecuba
04-08-2004, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
whats your point?
whats my point? the other kid pointed out that there had been false messiahs before and had been killed too. i said that yea there were but what happenned when "that messiah died" all of the followers ran and fled. Christ followers were willing to die for this faith.

FatFat Bastard
04-08-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
whats my point? the other kid pointed out that there had been false messiahs before and had been killed too. i said that yea there were but what happenned when "that messiah died" all of the followers ran and fled. Christ followers were willing to die for this faith.

thats great
you just pointed out one more problem with religion

jesus was a very bright men
i resect him
he was has invanted an intresting varitation
i consider what he preached to be very similar to reform judaism.
however i don't belive that he is son of god
god or anything to do with god.
like muhammad.

christianity confuses me sometimes
it aknowledges that jesus and all his first followers were jewish, yet christans (religious)
managed to prosecute and abuse jews
for many many years

what my quistion is how did they justify such treatment of jews?
if jesus himself
says
if someone slaps you on one chick offer them you other... or something like this.

aserecuba
04-08-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
thats great
you just pointed out one more problem with religion

jesus was a very bright men
i resect him
he was has invanted an intresting varitation
i consider what he preached to be very similar to reform judaism.
however i don't belive that he is son of god
god or anything to do with god.
like muhammad.

christianity confuses me sometimes
it aknowledges that jesus and all his first followers were jewish, yet christans (religious)
managed to prosecute and abuse jews
for many many years

what my quistion is how did they justify such treatment of jews?
if jesus himself
says
if someone slaps you on one chick offer them you other... or something like this.
well shy* happens. they were being persecuted. point is they stood up for their faith and died preaching it. who did the apostles kill?

FatFat Bastard
04-08-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
well shy* happens. they were being persecuted. point is they stood up for their faith and died preaching it. who did the apostles kill?

taking about the DARK AGES and even after the enlightment

SHY* happens LOL
so they died for the faith preaching it












Like you said
SHY*
happens
:D

aserecuba
04-08-2004, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
taking about the DARK AGES and even after the enlightment

SHY* happens LOL
so they died for the faith preaching it












Like you said
SHY*
happens
:D
.

Canadian Nanook
04-09-2004, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by aserecuba
thats interesting of you to say. now lets look at the other side of the coin. i got the following from the net. a little research never hurts.

The Jews rejected Jesus because He failed, in their eyes, to do what they expected their Messiah to do--destroy evil and all their enemies, in this case the Romans, and establish an eternal kingdom with Israel as the preeminent nation in the world. The prophecies in Isaiah and Psalm 22 described a suffering Messiah who would be persecuted and killed, but they chose to focus on those prophecies that discussed His glorious victories, not His crucifixion.

take note that the following was written abuot 880 - 1500 years before Christ's birth.

issiah:
53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;
when he makes himself an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.
53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out his soul to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

and palsms:


1 2 For the leader; according to "The deer of the dawn." A psalm of David.
2
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?
3
My God, I call by day, but you do not answer; by night, but I have no relief.
4
Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the glory of Israel.
5
In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted and you rescued them.
6
To you they cried out and they escaped; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
7
3 But I am a worm, hardly human, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
8
All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me:
9
"You relied on the LORD--let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you."
10
Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother's breast.
11
Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.
12
Do not stay far from me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help.
13
4 Many bulls surround me; fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me.
14
They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar.
15
Like water my life drains away; all my bones grow soft. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me.
16
5 As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me in the dust of death.
17
Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me. So wasted are my hands and feet
18
that I can count all my bones. They stare at me and gloat;
19
they divide my garments among them; for my clothing they cast lots.
20
But you, LORD, do not stay far off; my strength, come quickly to help me.
21
Deliver me from the sword, my forlorn life from the teeth of the dog.
22
Save me from the lion's mouth, my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.
23
6 Then I will proclaim your name to the assembly; in the community I will praise you:
24
"You who fear the LORD, give praise! All descendants of Jacob, give honor; show reverence, all descendants of Israel!
25
7 For God has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch, Did not turn away from me, but heard me when I cried out.
26
I will offer praise in the great assembly; my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him.
27
8 The poor will eat their fill; those who seek the LORD will offer praise. May your hearts enjoy life forever!"
28
All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the LORD; All the families of nations will bow low before you.
29
For kingship belongs to the LORD, the ruler over the nations.
30
9 All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
31
And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.
32
The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.


yes there were many false prophets. but when they were killed what did their followers do? they fled. Only Christ followers died for the faith. they died horrible deaths too. i believe one of them was even cruxified, but he asked to be cruxified upside down because he was not worthy of being cruxified in the same way Christ was.

This is where the false prophets come in. As I said earlier, the Jews did not accept Jesus because he said that no one has to follow the mitzvot of the Torah. Any prophet who says something in direct contradiction to the torah was considered a false prophet and could not be listened to. This is what happened in the kingdom of Israel and that was why they were exiled, they listened to the false prophets and started to worship in Beit El instead of at the temple mount which was forbidden. This is why the levites moved into the land of Judah and left the worship at beit el. The Jews did not listen to false prophets and Jesus was designated as a false prophet because he contradicted god. Simply accepting him as the son of god and loving him was not enough, you still have to follow the mitzvot of God, his "father". Because of the large following after Jesus, the Jews needed to tell the romans and kind of have him removed

Canadian Nanook
04-09-2004, 09:18 AM
The reason I see them following so devoutly was because at the time, the tribes of Israel were just exiled, the Romans were oppressing the Jews and the Jews had to follow 613 laws every single day of their lives. Jesus was the easy way out, he said accept me as the son of god and you will be allowed into heaven. It was a type of cult. Not only this but there were also different types of Jews at the time, there were the rabbis, who are what Jews today are descendants of, there were the priests who only believed in the written Torah and were kind of corrupt, they were destroyed. There were the extremists who wanted to overthrow the Romans, and then there were the Kaarites, they were separate from the rest of Jewish society and Jesus was a part of this group. They had a bit of a different way of worship that was looked down upon by the other groups. This is also where the dead sea scrolls came from. When Jesus said that he was the messiah, the rest of the Kaarites followed him because they saw it as a way out, that is why they died following him

aserecuba
04-09-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
This is where the false prophets come in. As I said earlier, the Jews did not accept Jesus because he said that no one has to follow the mitzvot of the Torah. Any prophet who says something in direct contradiction to the torah was considered a false prophet and could not be listened to. This is what happened in the kingdom of Israel and that was why they were exiled, they listened to the false prophets and started to worship in Beit El instead of at the temple mount which was forbidden. This is why the levites moved into the land of Judah and left the worship at beit el. The Jews did not listen to false prophets and Jesus was designated as a false prophet because he contradicted god. Simply accepting him as the son of god and loving him was not enough, you still have to follow the mitzvot of God, his "father". Because of the large following after Jesus, the Jews needed to tell the romans and kind of have him removed

and your point is?

aserecuba
04-09-2004, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
The reason I see them following so devoutly was because at the time, the tribes of Israel were just exiled, the Romans were oppressing the Jews and the Jews had to follow 613 laws every single day of their lives. Jesus was the easy way out, he said accept me as the son of god and you will be allowed into heaven. It was a type of cult. Not only this but there were also different types of Jews at the time, there were the rabbis, who are what Jews today are descendants of, there were the priests who only believed in the written Torah and were kind of corrupt, they were destroyed. There were the extremists who wanted to overthrow the Romans, and then there were the Kaarites, they were separate from the rest of Jewish society and Jesus was a part of this group. They had a bit of a different way of worship that was looked down upon by the other groups. This is also where the dead sea scrolls came from. When Jesus said that he was the messiah, the rest of the Kaarites followed him because they saw it as a way out, that is why they died following him
ok then you wait for your messiah. I put my faith in Christ.

RedheadHardBody
04-09-2004, 03:01 PM
I'm Jewish. Happy Belated Passover! How was your passover? I ate too much passover candy. I love those chocolate and rasberry candy my mom gives us for passover.

FatFat Bastard
04-09-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
ok then you wait for your messiah. I put my faith in Christ.

haha religious people are funny!!!

why
not belive in god
without jesus or the old testement.

i mean directly in god

nothing in between.

why do you need symbols or books or old pegan belives to belive in god.

i mean even acording to religious books
the prophets did not go to church or to a jewish tempel, but the religious god still contacted them.

Why not do what the so call prophets did
pray directly to god






Just my 2c

aserecuba
04-09-2004, 04:00 PM
well i dont go to church but i do believe in God nor am I a saint. i sin believe me, i sin alot. do you think God would just create us and let us be.? I put Jesus in between because he said he was the way to God. funny thing is he never proclaimed to be greater than God or asked for people to worship him. that is why i put Jesus in between God and I.

FatFat Bastard
04-09-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
well i dont go to church but i do believe in God nor am I a saint. i sin believe me, i sin alot. do you think God would just create us and let us be.? I put Jesus in between because he said he was the way to God. funny thing is he never proclaimed to be greater than God or asked for people to worship him. that is why i put Jesus in between God and I.

you don't go to church?
this is a very good start

now you sin.
what do you difine as sin?

I personaly focus on basic human interactions,
i vulonter in food banks and other support programs
i think helping other human,all humans
is the highest point of contact between you and god
because we agree that god created us,
so helping others is respecting creation

also try i follow basic interaction laws of not killing and stealing and so on.
but you don't really need jesus for this
in imo anyway

aserecuba
04-09-2004, 04:23 PM
i see Jesus as something like the apple in the garden of eden. except this time God told us either you eat from it and live or dont eat and die.

Quaght
04-10-2004, 03:24 PM
I am not Jewish, but here's to hoping the people that are had a good Passover.


mean after all The bible of christianity claims that it was The Jews who killed the Christ.

Wow. That's pretty ignorant. The Jewish council supported the Roman crucifixion of Jesus. The Jews did not kill him. Anti-Sematism is quite misplaced. If anything, the Christians should hate the Italians. But darn if spaghetti ain't too good to hate! ;)

/Q

Canadian Nanook
04-10-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
well i dont go to church but i do believe in God nor am I a saint. i sin believe me, i sin alot. do you think God would just create us and let us be.? I put Jesus in between because he said he was the way to God. funny thing is he never proclaimed to be greater than God or asked for people to worship him. that is why i put Jesus in between God and I.

I'm not all that religious of a Jew either, I go to shul four days a year. But when you say that Jesus is the way to god, it directly contradicts GOD. Jesus said don't bother with the mitzvot and just love me and god and then you will be accepted. The problem is that god said you must do all 613 mitzvot in order to be accepted. And by accepted i mean into heaven. This is where it gets contradicting and doesn't make sense. I don't mean to flame or offend you in any way but I would like to know why you follow Jesus when he contradicted god and kind of gave an easy way out? Again, i don't mean you any disrespect, I would just like to understand your point of view

Canadian Nanook
04-10-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
and your point is?
I was responding to you saying why the followers of Jesus did not simply disband like with other false messiahs

aserecuba
04-10-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
I'm not all that religious of a Jew either, I go to shul four days a year. But when you say that Jesus is the way to god, it directly contradicts GOD. Jesus said don't bother with the mitzvot and just love me and god and then you will be accepted. The problem is that god said you must do all 613 mitzvot in order to be accepted. And by accepted i mean into heaven. This is where it gets contradicting and doesn't make sense. I don't mean to flame or offend you in any way but I would like to know why you follow Jesus when he contradicted god and kind of gave an easy way out? Again, i don't mean you any disrespect, I would just like to understand your point of view


very easy. Jesus didnt come to abolish God's law but to fulfill them.

i did a little research, found the following interesting.

"Do NOT think that I have come to ABOLISH THE LAW or the Prophets; I have not coame to abolish them but to FULFILL them"

Read Matthew 5, to the very end of the chapter. Notice. Jesus did not just condemn the act of murder, but He added, "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment" (verse 22). Jesus did not merely condemn the act of adultery, but He went much further, saying, "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (verse 28). Although the law of Moses allowed divorce through a "certificate of divorce," Jesus tightened and strengthened the divorce law of God. He said, "But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for MARITAL UNFAITHFULNESS, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery" (verse 32).

Does this sound as if Jesus rescinded or abolished the commandments of God? NOT AT ALL! Rather, He amplified and expanded their meaning, showing us the full spiritual intent of God's Law. As Isaiah the prophet spoke of Him, "It pleased the LORD for the sake of his righteousness to make his law great and glorious" (Isa.42:21). The Living Bible has this verse, "The LORD has magnified his law and made it truly glorious." A possible rendering of the original Hebrew of this passage is: "He will enlarge and advance the Torah, and make it expanded." In other words, Jesus' intent was not to abolish or weaken or emasculate the Laws of God, revealed in the Old Testament, but to expand and magnify them to their full spiritual intent and conclusion -- to show their full meaning, purpose, and relevance -- to reveal their spiritual and supernatural nature and basis -- to show that the commandments lead us by necessity to FAITH in Him as the Messiah. We do not earn salvation by works of law, but by Faith in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins and transgression of the Law, and who now gives us His Spirit to enable us to fulfill the righteousness of the Law (Acts 2:38; 5:32; Gal.2:20). Christ did not replace the Law of God with Faith, but rather gives us inward Faith, through His Spirit, to enable us to observe the holy commandments of God!

The apostle Paul knew this truth. He wrote to the believers in Rome, "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we UPHOLD the law" (Rom.3:31). Not one iota, not one jot or tittle, is abolished from the Law of God.

What about the Law of Moses?

When a leper came to Jesus and asked to be made clean, Jesus had compassion on him and healed him. At once he was cured. Then Jesus commanded him, "See that you don't tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and OFFER THE SACRIFICES THAT MOSES COMMANDED for your cleansing, as a testimony to them" (Mark 1:40-44). Here was Jesus' perfect opportunity to tell the poor man that it wasn't necessary any more for him to offer sacrifices prescribed in the Law. But He didn't do it! Why? Because, although those sacrifices did not forgive sin, their performance would be a TESTIMONY to all the people that a wonderful miracle had been accomplished -- a marvelous, miraculous HEALING!

At that time the Temple of God was still standing. The Levitical priesthood was still in operation and functioning. Therefore, the Laws involving the Temple, priesthood, and sacrifices were STILL APPLICABLE and in force!

i hope that answered your questin. and by the way did you read the psalms and issiah i posted before, written 800 - 1500 years before his birth.

Canadian Nanook
04-10-2004, 05:47 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you that he abolished the laws of God but there are more laws in the old testament than the ten commandments, so why doesn't jesus strengthen and increase them as well. It says in Leviticus Chapter 11
1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them: 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying: These are the living things which ye may eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. 3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is wholly cloven-footed, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that may ye eat. 4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that only chew the cud, or of them that only part the hoof: the camel, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you. 5 And the rock-badger, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you. 6 And the hare, because she cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, she is unclean unto you. 7 And the swine, because he parteth the hoof, and is cloven-footed, but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you. 8 Of their flesh ye shall not eat, and their carcasses ye shall not touch; they are unclean unto you. 9 These may ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them may ye eat. 10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that swarm in the waters, and of all the living creatures that are in the waters, they are a detestable thing unto you, 11 and they shall be a detestable thing unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, and their carcasses ye shall have in detestation. 12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that is a detestable thing unto you. 13 And these ye shall have in detestation among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are a detestable thing: the great vulture, and the bearded vulture, and the ospray; 14 and the kite, and the falcon after its kinds; 15 every raven after its kinds; 16 and the ostrich, and the night-hawk, and the sea-mew, and the hawk after its kinds; 17 and the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl; 18 and the horned owl, and the pelican, and the carrion-vulture; 19 and the stork, and the heron after its kinds, and the hoopoe, and the bat. 20 All winged swarming things that go upon all fours are a detestable thing unto you. 21 Yet these may ye eat of all winged swarming things that go upon all fours, which have jointed legs above their feet, wherewith to leap upon the earth; 22 even these of them ye may eat: the locust after its kinds, and the bald locust after its kinds, and the cricket after its kinds, and the grasshopper after its kinds. 23 But all winged swarming things, which have four feet, are a detestable thing unto you. 24 And by these ye shall become unclean; whosoever toucheth the carcass of them shall be unclean until even. 25 And whosoever beareth aught of the carcass of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even. 26 Every beast which parteth the hoof, but is not cloven footed, nor cheweth the cud, is unclean unto you; every one that toucheth them shall be unclean. 27 And whatsoever goeth upon its paws, among all beasts that go on all fours, they are unclean unto you; whoso toucheth their carcass shall be unclean until the even. 28 And he that beareth the carcass of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even; they are unclean unto you. {S} 29 And these are they which are unclean unto you among the swarming things that swarm upon the earth: the weasel, and the mouse, and the great lizard after its kinds, 30 and the gecko, and the land-crocodile, and the lizard, and the sand-lizard, and the chameleon. 31 These are they which are unclean to you among all that swarm; whosoever doth touch them, when they are dead, shall be unclean until the even.
If Jesus wanted the people to become more religious and follow in gods footsteps more, then why is it that the Christians today do not follow the laws of kashrut and are not required to?

aserecuba
04-10-2004, 06:11 PM
alot of things have changed, and changed with time. God knows how many laws we are suppossed to follow and we dont. be it becuase texts have been omitted or w/e. the only thing i am sure of is Jesus is the messiah prophesied in issiah and psalms.

FatFat Bastard
04-10-2004, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
alot of things have changed, and changed with time. God knows how many laws we are suppossed to follow and we dont. be it becuase texts have been omitted or w/e. the only thing i am sure of is Jesus is the messiah prophesied in issiah and psalms.

does it make you feel more secure about the after life?



but what about if

Jesus Never Existed?


The three topics which suggest that Jesus never existed are:
History
Comparative Religion
Solar Mythology
History.

It's inconceivable that during the alleged time of Jesus no one bothered to write down anything about this most extraordinary person, yet we have nothing. Even the earliest Bible reference to Jesus dates to at least A.D. 64, and the first Gospel, the Gospel of Mark, dates to at least A.D. 70 (and probably to A.D. 170).
Comparative Religion shows that the story of Jesus already existed in numerous religions prior to the alleged time of Jesus. Chrishna, Horus, Orpheus, Bacchus, Osiris, Dionysus, Buddha, Apollo, Hercules, Adonis, Ormuzd, Mithras, Indra, Ĺ’dipus, Quetzalcoatle, etc. The motif of a Crucified Savior was already extant prior to the alleged time of Jesus.
Solar Mythology shows the story of Jesus is just an allegory for the sun passing through the Zodiac and the passage of the seasons of the year. Jesus travels throughout his one year ministry, and the description of his travels exactly match that of the sun traveling through the Zodiac during the year. Here we have the origin of the Jesus story. This common origin explains why all the stories of crucified saviors are essentially the same.


HISTORY.
If Jesus actually existed and did all the miraculous things he is said to have done then surely many people would have written about it during and immediately following Jesus' life. Writing was common at the time, yet an extensive search by many scholars over centuries has turned up nothing. The very few references to Jesus that allegedly date back to his lifetime are clearly forgeries, forged no doubt hundreds of years later by people who realized this embarrassing lack of evidence needed to be rectified (see Joseph Wheless Forgery in Christianity).

Even if we ignore the evidence that they are forgeries, the very small number of these questionably authentic writings that allegedly date back to his alleged lifetime are still far too few. There should be a huge wealth of writing about this person that was written during his lifetime.

Jesus allegedly had crowds of thousands follow him around. Once he fed 5000 people with only a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish (Mark 6:39-44). Later he repeated the miracle again feeding a crowd of 4000 people (Mark 8:1-9). Jesus cured sick people miraculously and raised people from the dead. He changed water into wine at a wedding reception. He exorcised demons. He commanded 2000 pigs to rush into a lake and drown themselves, inciting the people of the nearby town and countryside, who asked him to leave. (No mention is made of what happened to the poor pig hearder whose livelihood must have been ruined. Mark 5:1-20).

Wherever Jesus went a crowd gathered and wondered in amazement who this person was. Jesus was a very controversial person. Finally he got himself into so much trouble that huge crowds of Jews demanded his execution. There was a controversial trial followed by his public execution. Three days later he is seen walking around alive again. And no one wrote any of this down when it allegedly happened?

Even the earliest full account of Jesus in the Bible, the Gospel of Mark, is admitted by the Catholic Church to date to at least A.D. 70, a full 40 years after Jesus' alleged death and resurrection. (Mark makes reference to an event that happened around A.D. 70, so it could not have been written any earlier. Modern scholars now date the Gospels as being written near A.D. 170, a full 140 years after the alleged event, since no one makes any reference to a Gospel of Mark, or any other Gospel, prior to this time.)

It's inconceivable that no one at the time bothered to write down anything about the most important person in the whole of human history. Writing was common back then. People wrote letters. Historians wrote commentaries on current events. The Romans wrote and kept legal documents about trials. It's considered one of the best documented periods of history. Yet no one wrote anything about this Jesus; no one painted a portrait of this Jesus; no one drew a sketch of this Jesus; no one cast a coin depicting this Jesus; no one made a statue of this Jesus; no one makes any reference whatsoever to this Jesus. The historical evidence is overwhelming—the Jesus of the Bible never existed.

NEGATIVE EVIDENCE PRINCIPLE
When is absence of evidence, evidence of absence? In general a mere lack of evidence is not sufficient to conclude a proposition is false. We must also demonstrate:
All of the evidence used to support the proposition is untenable.
Adequate tenable evidence should exist.
A thorough search for this tenable evidence has been made and none has been found.
At this point I leave it to the reader to decide for him or her self whether the above three points have been satisfied or not, as every individual must ultimately decide what one chooses to believe. Any counter-argument will be an attack against one of the above three points. We can not prove that Jesus never existed, just as we can not prove that Santa Claus never existed. Quite a lot of people believe Santa Claus exists (mostly young people).

Being suspicious of "The Jesus Story is a Biography" theory frees our thinking and allows us to look in other places for the origin of the story. Indeed we will discover that the Jesus Story is not unique. We will find that the motif of a crucified savor who dies and is resurrected was common in other religions prior to the alleged time of Jesus. We will also discover that the story of Jesus' one year ministry parallels that of the Sun's annual journey through the Zodiac and the Sun's apparent death in Autumn and subsequent resurrection in Spring.

We will pursue these studies in parts 2 & 3. First let's examine what other scholars throughout history have said about the existence of Jesus.

aserecuba
04-10-2004, 09:50 PM
ok. are you an atheist?

benefit
04-10-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Ryo
Some have really nice breasts.

Some have really nice wigs.

FatFat Bastard
04-10-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
ok. are you an atheist?

stupid qusition you know the answer...

aserecuba
04-10-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by FatFat Bastard
stupid qusition you know the answer...
ok.

Canadian Nanook
04-11-2004, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by aserecuba
alot of things have changed, and changed with time. God knows how many laws we are suppossed to follow and we dont. be it becuase texts have been omitted or w/e. the only thing i am sure of is Jesus is the messiah prophesied in issiah and psalms.
This text was a full chapter of liviticus or Vayikra in hebrew, it remains in your old testament but very few if any christians actually practice it or are required to. also with the prophecies in issiah and psalms, psalms was written by king david who was not a prophet and never spoke to god and therefore Psalms as a prophecy for the messiah can't work. As for Issaih Jesus was supposed to be a very learned and bright scholar in the torah, anyone actually knowing this prophecy well can interpret it to mean them. There is also the prophecy that when the Messiah does come, he will be led in by Eliyahu ha navi, or elijah the prophet. Jesus was not led in by eliyahu and there never was an account of Eliyahu ever returning, therefore, Jesus could not have been the messiah as sent by God

aserecuba
04-11-2004, 08:44 AM
ok you believe that...

Canadian Nanook
04-11-2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by aserecuba
ok you believe that...

Can you actually say that this is not plausible proof?

aserecuba
04-11-2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
Can you actually say that this is not plausible proof?

this is not proof. YOU think that david did not talk to god. YOU think his prophecies are fake. but again this is what you believe even though you have the text right before you telling you otherwise.

regarding Elijah comeing before Christ:

Then his followers asked him, “Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered, “They are right to say that Elijah is coming and that he will make everything the way it should be. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him. They did to him whatever they wanted to do. It will be the same with the Son of Man; those same people will make the Son of Man suffer.” 13 Then the followers understood that Jesus was talking about John the Baptist.
— Matthew 17:1-13


Matt 11:7-10-14 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, …. And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.

Luke 1:13-17 But the angel said unto him, …. and thou shalt call his name John. …. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord

Canadian Nanook
04-11-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
this is not proof. YOU think that david did not talk to god. YOU think his prophecies are fake. but again this is what you believe even though you have the text right before you telling you otherwise.

regarding Elijah comeing before Christ:

Then his followers asked him, “Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered, “They are right to say that Elijah is coming and that he will make everything the way it should be. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him. They did to him whatever they wanted to do. It will be the same with the Son of Man; those same people will make the Son of Man suffer.” 13 Then the followers understood that Jesus was talking about John the Baptist.
— Matthew 17:1-13


Matt 11:7-10-14 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, …. And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.

Luke 1:13-17 But the angel said unto him, …. and thou shalt call his name John. …. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord

David has never in Judaism been acredited to speaking with God. That was why there was the prophet Shmuel who spoke to David and told David that he would not build the Temple. This is why david never spoke to god, none of the kings did, the prophets said that God didn't want the Jews to have kings because they would begin to worship them and therefore did not allow the Kings to receive prophecy. As for those quotes, Eliyahu was supposed to come at the same time as the messiah and proclaim to the world so that everyone knows that the messiah has come, Matt and Luke were written far after Jesus and John the Baptist and can not be appropriate recreations of the time. Also, in hebrew, Elias and John are no where near the same as the spelling of Eliyahu which means that they were not the same person. Elias may be similar but at the time God was with Eliyahu and that is the reason for the name, Elias meaning to me, and eliyahu meaning of God or god is with him. Names do not change in the bible unless God intended for them to change, such as Abram changing to Abraham symbolyzing that god is with them

aserecuba
04-11-2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
David has never in Judaism been acredited to speaking with God. That was why there was the prophet Shmuel who spoke to David and told David that he would not build the Temple. This is why david never spoke to god, none of the kings did, the prophets said that God didn't want the Jews to have kings because they would begin to worship them and therefore did not allow the Kings to receive prophecy. As for those quotes, Eliyahu was supposed to come at the same time as the messiah and proclaim to the world so that everyone knows that the messiah has come, Matt and Luke were written far after Jesus and John the Baptist and can not be appropriate recreations of the time. Also, in hebrew, Elias and John are no where near the same as the spelling of Eliyahu which means that they were not the same person. Elias may be similar but at the time God was with Eliyahu and that is the reason for the name, Elias meaning to me, and eliyahu meaning of God or god is with him. Names do not change in the bible unless God intended for them to change, such as Abram changing to Abraham symbolyzing that god is with them

so now you are saying that the scriptures which indicate that john was indeed eliah are fake. and are not reliable?
ok i will post this anyway. i didnt write this by the way but found it interesting nonetheless.

The Bible tells us that John the Baptist possessed, "... the spirit and power of Elijah." (Luke 1:17) Those who refute this reincarnation connection say that John the Baptist merely came in the spirit and power of Elijah. However, this is a perfect description of reincarnation: the spirit and power. This is reincarnation - the reincarnation of the spirit. The Bible itself states that John the Baptist possessed the spirit that had previously lived in, and as, the man Elijah - not his physical being and memory, but his spirit. John carried Elijah's living spirit, but not his physical memory. And since John did not possess Elijah's physical memory, he did not possess the memories of being the man Elijah. Thus, John the Baptist denied being Elijah when asked: They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No." Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?" John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'" Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" "I baptize with water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie." (John 1:21-27) But Jesus knew better, and said so in the plainest words possible: "This is the one ... there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist.... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 11:11-15). It comes down to this: Jesus said John was Elijah, and John said he wasn't. Which of the two is to be believed - Jesus or John?

are you really expecting elijah to come as elijah in this day and age?why would john say that one was to come after him which was greater and then ecognized Jesus as the messiah.

Ryo
04-11-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
The reason I see them following so devoutly was because at the time, the tribes of Israel were just exiled, the Romans were oppressing the Jews and the Jews had to follow 613 laws every single day of their lives. Jesus was the easy way out, he said accept me as the son of god and you will be allowed into heaven. It was a type of cult. Not only this but there were also different types of Jews at the time, there were the rabbis, who are what Jews today are descendants of, there were the priests who only believed in the written Torah and were kind of corrupt, they were destroyed. There were the extremists who wanted to overthrow the Romans, and then there were the Kaarites, they were separate from the rest of Jewish society and Jesus was a part of this group. They had a bit of a different way of worship that was looked down upon by the other groups. This is also where the dead sea scrolls came from. When Jesus said that he was the messiah, the rest of the Kaarites followed him because they saw it as a way out, that is why they died following him

There never was a country known as Israel before 48.

Canadian Nanook
04-11-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Ryo
There never was a country known as Israel before 48.
Fine, I meant Canaan

Canadian Nanook
04-11-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
so now you are saying that the scriptures which indicate that john was indeed eliah are fake. and are not reliable?
ok i will post this anyway. i didnt write this by the way but found it interesting nonetheless.

The Bible tells us that John the Baptist possessed, "... the spirit and power of Elijah." (Luke 1:17) Those who refute this reincarnation connection say that John the Baptist merely came in the spirit and power of Elijah. However, this is a perfect description of reincarnation: the spirit and power. This is reincarnation - the reincarnation of the spirit. The Bible itself states that John the Baptist possessed the spirit that had previously lived in, and as, the man Elijah - not his physical being and memory, but his spirit. John carried Elijah's living spirit, but not his physical memory. And since John did not possess Elijah's physical memory, he did not possess the memories of being the man Elijah. Thus, John the Baptist denied being Elijah when asked: They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No." Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?" John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'" Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" "I baptize with water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie." (John 1:21-27) But Jesus knew better, and said so in the plainest words possible: "This is the one ... there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist.... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 11:11-15). It comes down to this: Jesus said John was Elijah, and John said he wasn't. Which of the two is to be believed - Jesus or John?

are you really expecting elijah to come as elijah in this day and age?why would john say that one was to come after him which was greater and then ecognized Jesus as the messiah.

The whole reason in the old testament of Why elijah rode up to heaven on a chariot of fire and did not die was to show that he would return to earth, there was no mortal body of elijah dead and therefore his method of return was supposed to be of him himself, and not of anyone else or possessing anyone else. If John says he was not the prophet Elijah, then Jesus was simply self proclaiming himself as the messiah. John said someone will come after me, well then why couldn't anyone have simply proclaimed that John was talking about them. John is too vague to be able to fully comprehend. He may very well have been the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet, but it seems that everything is trying to be fit into a place which doesn't make sense. Simply conforming all of the characteristics of these people to fit in with the prophecy does not make sense.

aserecuba
04-11-2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
The whole reason in the old testament of Why elijah rode up to heaven on a chariot of fire and did not die was to show that he would return to earth, there was no mortal body of elijah dead and therefore his method of return was supposed to be of him himself, and not of anyone else or possessing anyone else. If John says he was not the prophet Elijah, then Jesus was simply self proclaiming himself as the messiah. John said someone will come after me, well then why couldn't anyone have simply proclaimed that John was talking about them. John is too vague to be able to fully comprehend. He may very well have been the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet, but it seems that everything is trying to be fit into a place which doesn't make sense. Simply conforming all of the characteristics of these people to fit in with the prophecy does not make sense.

but John himself ackowledge Jesus as the messiah, didnt he? so you are saying elijah will come in the flesh. do you really see that happenning??

Canadian Nanook
04-11-2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by aserecuba
but John himself ackowledge Jesus as the messiah, didnt he? so you are saying elijah will come in the flesh. do you really see that happenning??
Why not, Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, healed the sick, why can't Elijah come down from heaven to proclaim the messiah to the world

aserecuba
04-11-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Canadian Nanook
Why not, Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, healed the sick, why can't Elijah come down from heaven to proclaim the messiah to the world
where in the old testament does it say elijah will come in the flesh. himself. why is it so far fetched to admit that he was within john the baptist. after all didnt john himself let Jesus baptize him and proclaim him the messiah?

have you ever wondered why Jesus came 2000 + years ago? do you really see the posibility of someone coming now with wiath all this technology and fullfilling everything written in the old testament? with all the media, technology and everything i dont think thats possible. just sit and think thats maybe why all these events happened way before society became too civilized and technological. in any case if you look at it as whole theres alot more evidence that Jesus was indeed the messiah, than against it.

Canadian Nanook
04-12-2004, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by aserecuba
where in the old testament does it say elijah will come in the flesh. himself. why is it so far fetched to admit that he was within john the baptist. after all didnt john himself let Jesus baptize him and proclaim him the messiah?

have you ever wondered why Jesus came 2000 + years ago? do you really see the posibility of someone coming now with wiath all this technology and fullfilling everything written in the old testament? with all the media, technology and everything i dont think thats possible. just sit and think thats maybe why all these events happened way before society became too civilized and technological. in any case if you look at it as whole theres alot more evidence that Jesus was indeed the messiah, than against it.

Basically, I don't feel that the messiah will come to anyone, I think that most religions are garbage and they don't make sense, and I am including both Judaism and Christianity in it. But simply the fact that Jesus fits some of the criteria and that other people are changing the words of the bible to make Jesus fit in as the messiah really doesn't make him the actual messiah. Look at it this way, when the messiah is to come once again, to the world, there are supposed to be four evils, famine, disease, death and war (I think, I'm not certain though) all four of these have come at the same time on massive scales and people have predicted the messiah, but he hasn't come. In the 1930's there was death all over because of poverty. There was a famine because of the dust bowl. There was the spanish influenza spreading like crazy and there was the war before and after. Yet the messiah did not come. Recently, there were locusts eating the farms of South africa, there was war in rewanda, there was a masacre in the congo and there was aids spreading like wildfire throughout Africa, but did the messiah come, No. I don't think we can assume that the messiah will come and I don't think that we can say simply because Jesus fits in to some of the criteria that he was the messiah, especially in that there is no recollection at the time of what actually happened.

uhhduh
04-12-2004, 09:15 AM
I used to be Jewish but I no longer am. Could someone please explain why it only takes 3 pages for the bible to start contradicting itself? (I know that sounds sarcastic, it's not, I'd like to know what you think about that :))

Canadian Nanook
04-12-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by uhhduh
I used to be Jewish but I no longer am. Could someone please explain why it only takes 3 pages for the bible to start contradicting itself? (I know that sounds sarcastic, it's not, I'd like to know what you think about that :))
Please elaborate, and why are you no longer Jewish?

uhhduh
04-13-2004, 03:28 PM
For many reasons, too many to explain here.

Read the order in which things are created. It says the order two times in the first two sections. However the orders are very very different. A little odd, isn't it?

The Ukrainian
04-14-2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by uhhduh
For many reasons, too many to explain here.

Read the order in which things are created. It says the order two times in the first two sections. However the orders are very very different. A little odd, isn't it?

No what you're saying is odd. What are you trying to say?

Canadian Nanook
04-14-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by uhhduh
For many reasons, too many to explain here.

Read the order in which things are created. It says the order two times in the first two sections. However the orders are very very different. A little odd, isn't it?
If you want an explanation, read any number of rabbis, Rambam or Rashi give explanations on why it is written twice. that is not a reason to give up on Judaism, have you studied a lot of Jewish thought and religion? Judaism makes more sense then christianity, I know that. A lot of Jewish Laws were based on common sense. for example, Kashrut, don't eat milk and meat, well it has been determined recently that it is harder on the stomach to mix the two and healthier if you don't eat them together. Same with circumcision, it was found recently to be healthier because the foreskin can become cancerous quite easily. Most of Judaism is based on common sense and getting worked up over small things that have been explained doesn't make much sense

notorius1
10-15-2005, 11:55 AM
I wonder how folks forgot about this thread?

Canadian Nanook
10-15-2005, 05:23 PM
I wonder how folks forgot about this thread?
wow old thread, Interesting bump

notorius1
10-15-2005, 05:29 PM
wow old thread, Interesting bump


Only because there's another Judaism thread too.