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alpha-LG
11-08-2003, 08:10 AM
How far appart should they be?
Also, can you alternate, or do they have to be consectutive?

I heard that there should be <10g of the other macro in each meal, is this acccurate?

Thanks :)

sawastea
11-08-2003, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by alpha-LG
How far appart should they be?
Also, can you alternate, or do they have to be consectutive?

I heard that there should be <10g of the other macro in each meal, is this acccurate?

Thanks :)

Like all your meals, they should be seperated 2-3 hrs apart. Here is an example of MY day:

Breakfast
P+C

Meal 2
P+F

Meal 3
P+F

Meal 4 (pre-workout)
P+C

Meal 5 (post-workout shake)
P+C

Meal 6 (post-workout meal)
P+C

Meal 7 (bedtime)
P+F

I heard about that ratio as well, I think in Men's Health or something. It's a nice % to look for, and if you can consume less then 10g of fat for a carb meal or vice-versa, you'll be fine. Ultimately, it'll come down to how many calories you consume throughout the day :)

nathan101085
11-08-2003, 08:20 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but does the idea for spliting come from the fear that if you DO spike insulin then the blood fats you have will also be shuttled into adipose?

alpha-LG
11-08-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by sawastea
Like all your meals, they should be seperated 2-3 hrs apart. Here is an example of MY day:

Breakfast
P+C

Meal 2
P+F

Meal 3
P+F

Meal 4 (pre-workout)
P+C

Meal 5 (post-workout shake)
P+C

Meal 6 (post-workout meal)
P+C

Meal 7 (bedtime)
P+F

I heard about that ratio as well, I think in Men's Health or something. It's a nice % to look for, and if you can consume less then 10g of fat for a carb meal or vice-versa, you'll be fine. Ultimately, it'll come down to how many calories you consume throughout the day :)

Great, thank you.
One more question.. On not workout days, would your p/c meals be p/f?

Zachary
11-08-2003, 09:02 AM
*screams and curses and rants*

Repeat after me...

YOU CAN COMBINE FAT AND CARBS WITHOUT MAGICALLY GAINING FAT

BERARDI IS FULL OF...

*ahem*

You want to know how far apart you should space them? About 0 minutes. It doesn't matter. Fat can be stored without the presence of insulin. Even if it's stored and you're hypocaloric, it will come right back out again. Most fat in healthy people goes to fat cells BEFORE it gets burned for energy anyway. Fat + Carbs together will have NO adverse affects UNLESS you're in an EXTREMELY hypercaloric state, in which case any fat consumed will be more or less stored for sure.

Come on people, it's about calories in vs. calories out. Voodoo macronutrient timing is absurd. Think.

Cardinal
11-08-2003, 11:09 AM
I recall last fall coming to this board as a newbie and was quickly sucked into the idea of Berardi's daily food combining theory. Lol, I was shocked when I went to wannabebig and was laughed at basically for believing it. Nice wake-up call! Zachary is right, we need to think a bit more.

Unfortunately, separating meals into p/f and p/c is not supported by research, never has been really, even Berardi mentioned this in one of his articles I believe.

Lyle McDonald pretty well tore the idea apart with his posts on ASP many moons ago. It is pretty much seen as voodoo nutrition by the majority of bbing boards now thanks to him.

Cardinal
11-08-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by nathan101085
Correct me if I'm wrong but does the idea for spliting come from the fear that if you DO spike insulin then the blood fats you have will also be shuttled into adipose?

Right or wrong, I think about it this way. At least this is what I can say 'seems' to be the case from personal experience.

Insulin can very easily be anti-lipolytic, but not necessarily lipogenic. Note the difference. If you are in a hypocaloric state, it is easy to rationalize why an insulin spike would not lead to additional fat storage over the course of the day for example (where will the new fat to be stored come from?)

But in the same hypocaloric state, for many of us, it might put a block on fat burning (to use Lyle's terminology again) from a hormonal perspective. See Ultimate Diet 2.0 for explanation.

I suspect that may be one of the reasons I and many other endos do well on lower carbohydrate/cyclical carbohydrate diets. More time where insulin levels are stable/lower than normal.

alpha-LG
11-08-2003, 11:58 AM
Hmm...
so if your typical endo (or any one I suppose) stuck with low GI carbs, how would that affect fat storage recruitment in a hypocaloric state?

On a side note, if you add a protien or fat rich food to something that is high GI, doest that lower it at all, or is that asking for trouble?

Cardinal
11-08-2003, 12:24 PM
I can't really offer any much new or particularly insightful info on sticking with low GI carbs really. It is still good imo for the same old reasons....

Low GI carbs lead to more stable insulin levels over time and they are slower digesting which seems to be a pretty important aspect.

There are too many individual differences from one somatotype to the next and from person to person to make strong generalizations and conclusions about the whole issue.

Best advise I can give would be to carefully control your diet and experiment with carbohydrate use yourself and see if you can find what works best.

Maybe try a straight isocaloric diet (or 40/40/20) for a while and monitor progress then switch to some type of cyclical carbohydrate diet (the current hyped up dieting scheme) with the same caloric consumption all else being equal and see what kind of a difference you notice.

Good luck.
-Cardinal

Cardinal
11-08-2003, 12:33 PM
Adding protein or fat to a meal will definitely lower the GI value and slow digestion. A good thing imo, especially adding protein.

My understanding is that fats are typically broken down into constituents, then packaged as chylomicrons/enter lymphatic system etc. before they are available to be used as energy. This process takes a good while (~3 hours maybe) for longer chain triglycerides.

nathan101085
11-08-2003, 06:07 PM
While its obviously true that with an increased amount of insulin fat burning is reduced. I'm gonna combine this with a question thats been biting at me for a while.

If fat is the perferd source of resting heart rate energy to carbohydrates why does the body burn more carbs when insulin is presesnt exactly? Or is fat not always the perferd source, and instead just insulin levels dictate the amount of cortisol which in turn depending on the relative values of these hormones to one another determine the fat\carb\protein ratio on a per calorie basis thatare used for energy?

So anyway what i was saying was that even in a hypercaloric state wont your body still just burn calories based on the insulin\cortisol levels and all other unuesed calories go to fat, I mean i can see how perhaps more Fat would be stored if you had high insuline levels and so were burning from glycogen from previous meals instead of fats from the most recent one but this leads me to one more question.

If I eat x amount of carbohydrate calories and then i wait a while and because of raised insulin levels from eating them burn off x amount of calories does my body continue on even when all those carb calroies are burnt burning my glycogen or is it all relative to insuline for example x amount of insulin makes me burn A carb calories to B protein\fat cals per min. So does my body continue processing a macronutrient ratio in accordance to the x amount of insulin even after all the carb calories i diegested were burnt off, which, leaves my body then resorting to glycogen from previous meals, or by the time ive burned through the carb calories ive eaten my insulin will have lowerd consistently and my fat\protein would have raised as cortisol raised so that when those carbs were gone i was back a higher concentration of fat\prtoein cals per minute?

nathan101085
11-08-2003, 09:34 PM
quick bump to see if anyoen can answer my questions

Cardinal
11-08-2003, 10:57 PM
To get into the biochemistry behind this would be far more complicated than any of the scenarios you mention.

That said there are plenty of over riding factors that can influence cortisol levels in addition to insulin for example. You can't just make such a direct corrolation between insulin levels and cortisol. It just isn't that simple. Based on that I am having trouble figuring out what the rest of your question is exactly.

But I can say that fat is definitely not always the preferred source of energy. Obviously there are metabolic conditions where carbs are used preferentially (think high intensity/short duration work), HIIT for example.

Check the wording of some of your sentences. If you rephrase what you are asking more clearly with fewer run-ons, you will get better responses I feel.

anthonyfel
11-09-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by sawastea
Like all your meals, they should be seperated 2-3 hrs apart. Here is an example of MY day:

Breakfast
P+C

Meal 2
P+F

Meal 3
P+F

Meal 4 (pre-workout)
P+C

Meal 5 (post-workout shake)
P+C

Meal 6 (post-workout meal)
P+C

Meal 7 (bedtime)
P+F

I heard about that ratio as well, I think in Men's Health or something. It's a nice % to look for, and if you can consume less then 10g of fat for a carb meal or vice-versa, you'll be fine. Ultimately, it'll come down to how many calories you consume throughout the day :)

Well, I hear a lot of you to talk about Prot/fat _ Prot/carb meals.
I think it's a kind of diet quite fine. Stable insulin level through the day, except after training, carbs in the morning, before and after training...

However, I was wondering what do you guy mean about protein/fat meals.

It would be fine if you can give meal examples from your example above

Thans & regards

xil
11-09-2003, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by anthonyfel
However, I was wondering what do you guy mean about protein/fat meals.

It would be fine if you can give meal examples from your example above

Thans & regards
chicken breast with salad on the side, maybe some olive oil drizzled on top and some EFA's, tuna with nuts etc... Just a source of protein with fats on the side, prefably keeping carbs to a minimum

alpha-LG
11-09-2003, 05:42 AM
For me, P/c would be like cottage cheese w/ oats mixed in. P/f would be ground turkey & egg w/ some broccoli, etc.
I tried this for a few days, and I found thatt it kept my late day cravings at bay (my weakness) while still having lots of energy throughout the day.

anthonyfel
11-09-2003, 05:47 AM
Ok.
Can you include fibrous veggies (brocoli, green beans, cabbage...)with protein/fat meals?

nathan101085
11-09-2003, 07:49 AM
What would you say is\are the determining factor(s) for where energy comes from at a resting heart rate on a per calorie basis after a meal with carbs as opposed to after a meal without carbs. For instance Will the body continue to burn glycogen at a resting heart rate because of high insulin levels or will it simply put what it can in glycogen and put the rest in fat and continue burning fat.
To put it all together: Do the meals eaten affect ones resting heart rate macro nutrient expenditure on a per calorie basis and if so how long?

nathan101085
11-09-2003, 06:55 PM
bump for cardinal

Cardinal
11-10-2003, 05:21 PM
nathan, sorry for the slow response.

I tend to think about it in a pretty straightforward manner.

Say you ingest a meal that induces a fairly large insulin spike. This is how I would prioritize what eventually happens to the carbohydrates...

1) Fuel current energy needs

2) Replenish Liver and muscle glycogen

3) Any excess calories from carbohydrates would then either directly (through De Novo Lipogenesis for example) or indirectly contribute to fat storage (hence assuming a hypercaloric state for that time frame)

This is obviously a gross oversimplification.

In answer to your last question, yes definitely meals eaten effect your macronutrient expenditure in a big way. As far as how long the effect lasts, that will vary depending on what and how much you ate specifically.

Gareth
11-10-2003, 05:28 PM
Cardinal, when u consume a carb it doesn't fuel current needs. The body will use liver stores and it just serves as an instant replacement.

Lyle McDonald will basically tear up anything that he didn't think off first and when he can't do that (i'm talking about justifying the need for high GI carbs post-workout) he escapes by saying he can't be bothered participating.

I have more faith in JB than LM who said one day as I quote "Any amount of carbs consumed by the human body is never stored as fat."

I dont believe ur point 3 is very accurate 2. The body isn't as perfect as it seems. Even with glycogen stores depleted, the body will not store all carbs as glycogen. It will continue 2 store some as fat 2.

nathan101085
11-10-2003, 05:44 PM
Thanks for the responses but i really knew all that the main question im asking is for instance after a meal with carbs a higher level of insulin stays in your blood the effects of which promote carbohydrate burning and minimize fat burn but at a resting heart rate ive heard that your body burns more fat on a per calorie basis. Does the macronutrient ratio on a per calorie basis at a resting heart rate change to compensate for the meal just eaten or is there a set macronutrient ratio that you will burn based off of ones heart rate. If case B however how could anyone possibly ever burn a significant amount of carbs unless using muscle glycogen for exercise i stay at low body fat (6-8) and eat plenty of carbs i dont gain body fat and eat right up to my caloric expenditure just not over however if during rest my body would always burn more fat then i would have very little body fat because i onyl get about 40 grams a day and unless a HUGE percentage of the low gi fiberous carbs i eat were all turning to fat i would have no where to turn but my own fat stores, on the opposite end if at a resting heart rate i for some reason burnt a higher percentage of carbs would my body start turning my protein into glucose before even dipping into glycogen stores? For instance does my body have the ability to use glycogen in muscles at a resting heart rate. So basically it all boils down to again, does the macronutrient ratio on a per calorie basis shift in favor of carbs to help clear the blood of sugar after a carb meal or is the macronutrient ratio simply reliant on heart rate? I'm kinda confused now lots of theories....Is there a definant answer to my question or is this what scientists are debating today?

Cardinal
11-10-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Gareth
Cardinal, when u consume a carb it doesn't fuel current needs. The body will use liver stores and it just serves as an instant replacement.

Lyle McDonald will basically tear up anything that he didn't think off first and when he can't do that (i'm talking about justifying the need for high GI carbs post-workout) he escapes by saying he can't be bothered participating.

I have more faith in JB than LM who said one day as I quote "Any amount of carbs consumed by the human body is never stored as fat."

I dont believe ur point 3 is very accurate 2. The body isn't as perfect as it seems. Even with glycogen stores depleted, the body will not store all carbs as glycogen. It will continue 2 store some as fat 2.

Thanks for the corrections. Using liver stores/instant replacement makes sense. The body would need to convert the sugar into some type of glycogen that it recognizes before using it to fuel such a direct energy need.

Also, I made point three assuming but not clearly stating that liver/muscle glycogen stores were pretty much topped off. Hence, if one were severely depleted, you could bet on most CHO going to fill glycogen with very little tending to fat storage (think glycogen supercompensation) and vise versa. I suspect general nutrient partitioning effects can play a large role in what happens to the CHO ultimately, especially in less extreme/more typical cases where liver and muscle glycogen were not wholly filled or depleted.


On another note, I get the same sense about Lyle from reading his posts at Avant Labs and his own forum. It just seems in most cases he is pretty accurate/knowledgeable and cuts to the chase rather well. Sometimes he is willing to admit that he was wrong in many of his former beliefs (with regards to the importance of ketosis for instance). That takes some guts. He can come across as a real ass many times as well and tends to respond tersely to some issues he thinks he shouldn't have to or doesn't want to deal with/answer.

It is just that JB took a pretty hard hit/possibly made a mistake by not being able to back up some of his recommendations with research.

Cardinal
11-10-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by nathan101085
So basically it all boils down to again, does the macronutrient ratio on a per calorie basis shift in favor of carbs to help clear the blood of sugar after a carb meal or is the macronutrient ratio simply reliant on heart rate? I'm kinda confused now lots of theories....Is there a definant answer to my question or is this what scientists are debating today?

I would tend to answer yes to the first question, the macronutrient ratio would tend to shift more toward burning carbs after such a carb meal. The reasoning would be mainly due to the insulin spike = burning carbs becomes a preferred energy pathway in this instance.

You might find a better answer to your general question by researching anaerobic glycolysis and in general basic metabolic energy pathways. You could tell a lot more about at what point anaerobic glycolysis becomes the major source of energy for example. This is not determined solely by your heart rate to the best of my knowledge.

Something as basic as this is pretty well understood and you could almost certainly find close to the full answer in any up-to-date nutritional biochem text. I have just done an inadequate job of explaining it myself because I am poorly versed in the biochem behind it all. Many times I really wish I had studied nutrition in undergrad rather than physics. This is one of those times.

On a side note, it is also a blessing and a curse that we can't trust sources from a few years back on many current research topics. Things are moving very fast in the world of nutrition. Damn exciting if you ask me.

Zachary
11-10-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Gareth
Cardinal, when u consume a carb it doesn't fuel current needs. The body will use liver stores and it just serves as an instant replacement.

Lyle McDonald will basically tear up anything that he didn't think off first and when he can't do that (i'm talking about justifying the need for high GI carbs post-workout) he escapes by saying he can't be bothered participating.

I have more faith in JB than LM who said one day as I quote "Any amount of carbs consumed by the human body is never stored as fat."

I dont believe ur point 3 is very accurate 2. The body isn't as perfect as it seems. Even with glycogen stores depleted, the body will not store all carbs as glycogen. It will continue 2 store some as fat 2.

Technically, I believe that's right...

Carbs cannot be stored as fat. They can be inefficiently turned into fat via de novo lipgenesis which can then be stored, but carbs themselves cannot be.

It takes an enormous number of carbs to stimulate this, however. Thus the refeed.

Cardinal
11-10-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Zachary
Technically, I believe that's right...

Carbs cannot be stored as fat. They can be inefficiently turned into fat via de novo lipgenesis which can then be stored, but carbs themselves cannot be.

It takes an enormous number of carbs to stimulate this, however. Thus the refeed.

I believe Lyle also noted somewhere that chronically low fat intake (<10% total kcals) combined with even moderately hypercaloric dieting can stimulate DNL to a great extent.

It may be very hard to actually stimulate DNL like this, but I think a lot of people could easily misconstrue that little new tidbit of info and use it as a justifications for overfeeding on carbs too often (like everyday!).

What he was trying to get at I think was that in general we were blaming DNL for everything when really we should look a little more closely at how fat is store on a carb based hypercaloric diet.

Gareth
11-10-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Zachary
It takes an enormous number of carbs to stimulate this, however. Thus the refeed.

I believe the rate of rate de novo lipogenesis is determined genetically.

If u compared a group of obese people with an underweight group, u would find that with the same carb intake the obese group would store more as fat than the underweight group.

I believe the same would apply to any amount of carbs.

Zachary
11-10-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Gareth
I believe the rate of rate de novo lipogenesis is determined genetically.

If u compared a group of obese people with an underweight group, u would find that with the same carb intake the obese group would store more as fat than the underweight group.

I believe the same would apply to any amount of carbs.

Well, there are several abstracts often cited that showed while glycogen depleted and after days of a low-no carb diet, that a variety of people were able to take in 15g carb / kg of bodyweight + about 500g more before stimulating DNL to any great degree.

As to DNL being stimulated by an extremely low-fat diet...I hadn't heard about that. I was strictly speaking about refeeds though -- which is a rather special situation.

Cardinal
11-10-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Gareth
I believe the rate of rate de novo lipogenesis is determined genetically.

If u compared a group of obese people with an underweight group, u would find that with the same carb intake the obese group would store more as fat than the underweight group.

I believe the same would apply to any amount of carbs.

I agree, damn ectomorphs!!!

This is one thing that is a bit frustrating sometimes. The end result of many of our efforts is largely influenced by genetic predispositions. I forget that all too often. One more reason I am leaning toward the 'figure out what works for you and go with that' mentality.

I know if I overconsume on carbs for several days even, chances are I will gain some bodyfat. I don't even need to experiment. Done it too many times already over the course of my life.

Zachary, I am certainly not questioning that if even a hardcore endo for example depletes almost totally, they can consume a few truckloads of CHO without seeing much DNL. FYI, I don't think Gareth was talking about ppl that were extremely depleted but rather true ectos for example vs. endos

I have definitely hit the range you are referring to (1500+ grams CHO in a 24 hour period) and have still seen good success. I am sure many other binge type eaters like myself can attest to this as well.

Gareth
11-10-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Cardinal
FYI, I don't think Gareth was talking about ppl that were extremely depleted but rather true ectos for example vs. endos

Yup. I dont know how I'd handle a refeed.

With just 300g of carbs daily, my bf is climbing.

nathan101085
11-10-2003, 09:47 PM
In any of your opinoins do you think its possible that BF could be gained even if a caloric defeciet was in place because of a shift to burning muscle tissue to replenish glucose to use as energyinstead of fat tissue due to many higher carbohydrate\lower fat meals and therefore raised insulin levels. Will ones body go looking for the macronutrient ratio its been burning and try to contineu burning that or will someones body always choose fat over muscle in a caloric defeciet situtation that has no type of workout that would require glucogenesis. For instance will high insulin levels cause my body to look to my muscles for more insulin or will glucagon\cortisol levels raise in contrast with insulin dropping so that by the time that my body may have needed to break down muscle tissue to continue at the rate of carbs to fat it was burning it will instead be looking for fat anyway.

ps im going to go look up some of the terms you gave me thanks =).. I'm only in Highschool and am going to collecge for this stuff but ive really only gotten into diet\nutrition in the last 4 months and feel im starting to understand but again just STARTING to understand the basic concepts of hormones ect so this question of how your body regulates the macronutrient ratio that you burn to make it fit the macro nutrient ratio that you eat really perplexes me, cause technicly if i have high insulin levels and my body wants glucose while it may be ineffiecent as hell if there was nothing to prevent it from continuing on burning at a high insulin and therefore hi carb\fat ratio then it would go for glucogenesis for at least a small portion as liver glycogen got low. If this was the case however we would never burn any fat, in the same way if we didnt have insulin to stimulate a carb burning ratio then glycogen stores wouldbe getting topped off all the time if ther wasnt some form of exercise and fat would be stored all the time course wed burn fat ll the time so id come down to a caloric defeciet alone. It always however comes to a caloric defeciet so there must eb something that regulates insulins effects so that we go back to fat burning. Ive read sources that say we burn fat at rest and carbs when we do anarobic exercise or aerobic exercise in which we reach 75% vo2 max but say at rest we burn more fat.

Gareth
11-10-2003, 10:06 PM
If u are consuming less calories than u need u will drop BF.

Insulin and glucagon work in a ratio. One up, One down or they can both balance. Just imagine a see-saw.

When @ rest, glucagon is high and the liver glycogen is broken down 2 maintain blood sugar levels for bodily functions. At the same time glucagon breaks fat down and provides energy for our actitivies. (walking, carrying...) These actitives give the body enough time to convert fat into energy.

However with activites that demand energy (eg. running) the body doesn't have enough time 2 convert stored fat into energy. Cortisol is released & without the presense of insulin, glucogensis will take place. Aminos in the blood will be converted into energy. If there isn't enough it'll break muscle tissue down.

nathan101085
11-10-2003, 10:15 PM
ok thanks just wanted to reaffirm that, i had always been saying cortisol when i meant glucagon granted cortisol may be the thing that acutally DOES the breaking down i assume. So now ill look at the different energy pathways to see what the diferences are when you are running of one fuel as opposed to the other.

Zachary
11-11-2003, 11:29 AM
Refeeds are funny -- I've yet to see the long term effects on me, but right now I've been switching between carb-cycling (when I'm sick of intense dieting) and then refeed style dieting where I'll take a 1000+ calorie deficit for 3-5 days and then go on a 6-12 hour refeed where I eat enormous quantities of yummy, delicious ice cream (fat free/sugar free), bagels w/ FF cream cheese, etc. It's heaven.

Only problem is that once you first try binge eating, you want to do it, well, often. 'cause it's amazing.

Unfortunately, the 1000+ calorie deficit days are BITCHES and the 2-3 depletion workouts are just misery. Ah, the rigors of dieting.

nathan101085
11-11-2003, 01:06 PM
How you function on those days is beyond me...and i must be weird but i dont enjoy eating mass quantities of food I like to eat and enjoy it as much as possible but get it done as effeciently as i can