PDA

View Full Version : Which workout program is best fitted ? Need advice



RelentlessWyll
05-10-2019, 03:52 PM
Hi guys,

I'm new to the forum ! So I've posted a bunch of photos in my profile if you're interested in checking it.

Age : 24 (don't know why the sites shows 49)
Weight : 100 kg
Height : 1m81 cm
BodyFat : ~30% estimated

Goal : Get rid of the belly and build lean muscle

I've only started working out since last summer 3/4/5 times a week, tried at least 3 different routines from bro split to classic full body to body part split over 6 months of practicing, because of a 2 month injury break (where I still kinda worked out my upper body)

Decided to put my faith in this forum to find a better way to progress hopefully the most suited one for me.

My nutrition is in check in terms of food's quality, starting from today I'm starting to re-count my calorie intake.

I need an advice on what workout routine I could find in this forum that would better help me reach my goal.
Is Fierce 5 adapted ?

StrongmanFan
05-10-2019, 03:56 PM
Since you're not a total noob, your goals of dropping your body fat and building muscle are at odds. The easiest thing is going to be to pick one and do it, then switch strategies and address the other. You can use the same exercise program for both, but you'll need to adjust your diet for each.

RelentlessWyll
05-11-2019, 07:58 AM
Since you're not a total noob, your goals of dropping your body fat and building muscle are at odds. The easiest thing is going to be to pick one and do it, then switch strategies and address the other. You can use the same exercise program for both, but you'll need to adjust your diet for each.

Hmm

So first things first, I went through some of the major posts in the forum, and decided to pick the AllPro routine as a definitive plan. It seems much suited for my needs.

Second, you seem to claim that it's impossible to build muscle and lose fat at the same time ? Do you have any evidence to support this ? I'm genuinely interested.

Until now, I always thought that providing muscles with enough protein meaning between 0.7-1 g/bodyweight was enough to build them.

In the next months, I will be on a daily caloric deficit, but still my diet will provide me with about 220 g of protein which is more than enough at my level to build muscle.
Also according to your hypothesis, how in the world am i supposed to lift more weights throughout the year if i'm not gaining muscle ? That alone is enough to prove that this claim doesn't make total sens.

Tucane
05-11-2019, 08:38 AM
Imagine you're going to build an additional floor to an existing building... The manpower and building blocks you need to maintain the stucture likely won't be efficient enough to also build the additional floor in decent time, without compromising the working hours of the staff or the stucture itself.

RelentlessWyll
05-11-2019, 09:03 AM
Imagine you're going to build an additional floor to an existing building... The manpower and building blocks you need to maintain the stucture likely won't be efficient enough to also build the additional floor in decent time, without compromising the working hours of the staff or the stucture itself.

Except that in the case of our body, all the workers don't have the same role. Some are meant to build muscle others are meant to ensure other functions. So provided that you have enough muscle building workers you will still be able to build these muscles.

Also this question remain unanswered : according to your hypothesis, how am i supposed to lift more weights throughout the year if i'm not gaining muscle ? That alone is enough to prove that this claim doesn't make total sens.

Again if you have a well argumented article or discussion on this I would gladely look into it.

hardyboysare
05-11-2019, 09:12 AM
Except that in the case of our body, all the workers don't have the same role. Some are meant to build muscle others are meant to ensure other functions. So provided that you have enough muscle building workers you will still be able to build these muscles.

Also this question remain unanswered : according to your hypothesis, how am i supposed to lift more weights throughout the year if i'm not gaining muscle ? That alone is enough to prove that this claim doesn't make total sens.

Again if you have a well argumented article or discussion on this I would gladely look into it.

It is possible to build muscle and lose fat its called a body recomp the question you should be asking and trying to prove is that you can do it.........

Quick thought from myself on the matter

- Yes they can work if you are patient enough and willing to invest enough time.

- Do they work for everyone, well most likely but again humans are patient creatures so results are slow.

- Will you see results short term, No you wont maybe in a year or two possibly but not in 6 months unlike a cut and bulk where results are noticeable easier.

- Are they easier, no way of knowing some people like them (generally people who are already lean as they keep definition all year round and the untrained as they don't need to diet) but for the rest they can be very frustrating and most just give up.

If you want to try one go ahead but I would advise looking at in the long term and short term results are minimal at best.

Whereas focusing on one task either building muscle or losing fat generally ensure progression one way or the other instead of trying to achieve too many things at one go.

sunsean
05-11-2019, 09:55 AM
Hmm

Second, you seem to claim that it's impossible to build muscle and lose fat at the same time ? Do you have any evidence to support this ? I'm genuinely interested.

Until now, I always thought that providing muscles with enough protein meaning between 0.7-1 g/bodyweight was enough to build them.

In the next months, I will be on a daily caloric deficit, but still my diet will provide me with about 220 g of protein which is more than enough at my level to build muscle.
Also according to your hypothesis, how in the world am i supposed to lift more weights throughout the year if i'm not gaining muscle ? That alone is enough to prove that this claim doesn't make total sens.

Read the stickies at the top of the “losing fat” and “nutrition” forums. You need to understand the basic concepts of energy balance before moving forward otherwise you’re going to be spinning your wheels.

RelentlessWyll
05-11-2019, 10:04 AM
I understand the basics of nutrition and energy balance, but I will look into those topics as well, as I'm always open to new sources of information.

From reading your answers i came to question not only my choice of going for the AllPro routine but even my choice of going to the gym in the first place ...

Isn't the purpose of working out to build muscle ?

If I'm dietting in a way that according to some won't help me build muscle or at least heavily slow it, then I'm doing something wrong.

So I would like to ask what a fat loss oriented routine should look like, and what goals and progression measurement and milestones are to be expected with it ?

If I agree to your sayings then my whole strategy will change.

Tucane
05-11-2019, 10:23 AM
Except that in the case of our body, all the workers don't have the same role. Some are meant to build muscle others are meant to ensure other functions. So provided that you have enough muscle building workers you will still be able to build these muscles.

Also this question remain unanswered : according to your hypothesis, how am i supposed to lift more weights throughout the year if i'm not gaining muscle ? That alone is enough to prove that this claim doesn't make total sens.

Again if you have a well argumented article or discussion on this I would gladely look into it.

If you look at the analogy again, it didn't say it was impossible. Only that if you want the desired results you'll need to overtrain to a real degree, which I have a hard time believing a new lifter can pull off. People who are athlete aspirants at 2x a day or similiar programs might get incredible results (transformations), but it comes with a price few are willing to pay. For a novice it likely won't be as significant and can easily lead to adherence issues and quitting. Consistency over time is the safe approach.

As for initial strength gains, there are CNS adaptions happening making it easier to lift the weight. Technique advancement is another factor that adds to the equation.

RelentlessWyll
05-11-2019, 10:45 AM
Ok so let me sum your infos up and draw a conclusion on it, correct me if I'm wrong :

For a novice, while on caloric deficit it is almost impossible to build muscle, let's remove this from the way.

The best way to lose fat is to create a moderate sustainable caloric deficit that fits the daily requirements.

So from this i get :

Since I'm not focused in muscle gain anyway but rather on fat loss, all of a sudden I don't have to care about programs that focus on building strength and laying the foundations for muscle mass, because that's clearly not doable while on deficit.

Then it would be highly recommended to have a daily intense training activity with maybe one or two rest day to keep the body from breaking.
So therefore the fullbody's workout and all the very popular novice routines listed in this forum are not the best when it comes to fat loss.

Instead a program revolving around 5 or 6 days of consecutive training would be much more efficient.
The goal being encouraging the caloric deficit and not building muscle because we already agreed that was not possible.

Now again If I isolate these pieces of information even further I could argue that one's doesn't even need to go the gym in order to lose weight because when you're training your body is consuming calories, so you'd end up with an even lower caloric income than if you conteted to stay at home while eating at a deficit.

And i could even push this further, why do even bother with food's quality, if your only goal is to lose weight , you can even get your daily macros while being in a deficit by eating some wisely chosen junk food. I'm pretty sure you can elaborate a 100% fast food plan that would fit any macro requirement and calorie intake.

Please show me what I've missed

TheUnderdog83
05-11-2019, 12:27 PM
Below is a pretty good article about concurrent training. If you scroll down to figure 1, you’ll see that doing both cardio and resistance training (lifting weights) lost more fat than doing only cardio. You’ll also see that muscle size and strength went up by doing both, but goes up the most by only doing resistance training.

https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2012/08000/Concurrent_Training___A_Meta_Analysis_Examining.35 .aspx

Another good article is below which states -

“Weekly weight loss rates of 1.4% of bodyweight compared to 0.7% in athletes during caloric restriction lasting four to eleven weeks resulted in reductions of fat mass of 21% in the faster weight loss group and 31% in the slower loss group. In addition, LBM increased on average by 2.1% in the slower loss group while remaining unchanged in the faster loss group. Worthy of note, small amounts of LBM were lost among leaner subjects in the faster loss group”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033492/

In conclusion, lifting weights while cutting will help lose fat and can also help you gain strength at the same time. Also, the faster you lose weight the more negatively affected your muscle gains (and testosterone levels) will be. This means to do both you have to keep a small deficit and lose weight slowly, which is why most people lose weight slightly faster and just try to retain strength by continuing to lift.

RelentlessWyll
05-11-2019, 01:49 PM
Amazing ! Thanks for providing such documented sources was really insightful to go through

Furthermore the result of these studies seem to correlate with my personal experience, i've noticed that when I was doing concurrent training my results proved to be better.

I stopped doing cardio because of all the "beware of the muscle loss" spam which again looking at these studies seem to be true for most part but under some circumstances may not apply. The perfect correlation between how endurance training impact resistance training has not been figured out completely.

At any rate, since my primary goal is not to build muscle, I don't see any drawback in combining both for better results.
I might add that this is the best routine for a novice who has little muscle mass to begin with and large amounts of body fat to lose.

So my idea rn is something along the lines of :
3 days of AllPro and cardio on either weekend or in between the workouts.