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View Full Version : I fixed my thread— anybody eat a low fat diet here?



niculus
08-22-2018, 12:52 PM
Sorry I unknowingly posted inappropriate info.


I’ll rephrase my question:

Anyone here eat a low/ no fat diet, and if so, has it affected your training or ability to make muscle gains?

Thank you!

jk202
08-22-2018, 12:57 PM
What do you consider low fat

Ghawk21
08-22-2018, 01:02 PM
I wouldn't dip below .4g/lb of bodyweight, for general health purposes that's the recommended minimum. Going below can negatively affect things like hormone production. Going no fat would be quite stupid.

jk202
08-22-2018, 01:03 PM
I wouldn't dip below .4g/lb of bodyweight, for general health purposes that's the recommended minimum. Going below can negatively affect things like hormone production. Going no fat would be quite stupid..

This

EjnarKolinkar
08-22-2018, 02:09 PM
Anyone here eat a low/ no fat diet, and if so, has it affected your training or ability to make muscle gains?

No, nobody is going to advocate a fat free diet. Basic health is required to retain much less develop long term muscle gainz.

rhadam
08-22-2018, 02:59 PM
If you want to be incredibly unhealthy then yes do low fat/no fat.

SOJA
08-22-2018, 03:02 PM
If you want to be incredibly unhealthy then yes do low fat/no fat.

Not to mention your dick will be limper than 30 day old rhubarb left out of the crisper drawer.

AdamWW
08-22-2018, 03:11 PM
to me, just halving my bodyweight as a general guide is the easiest... if you dip slightly below half your BW, no biggie.

rhadam
08-22-2018, 04:21 PM
Not to mention your dick will be limper than 30 day old rhubarb left out of the crisper drawer.

Try this one weird trick to go soyboy without the soy!

niculus
08-22-2018, 07:48 PM
Thanks to all who cared to reply.

I’m not trolling, or unaware of the “ridiculous” nature of my question.

I went from 148 to 205 when I started lifting, and went through various nutrition ideas until I found success.

It just happens that I have health reasons I need to limit fat in my diet... I was really just wondering if anyone here HAD limited fat in their diet, and what the physical response ended up being.

I don’t want to get banned for restarting this thread— I’m ok with the mods closing it if they want.

Thanks again for reading guys.

rhadam
08-22-2018, 08:52 PM
Thanks to all who cared to reply.

I’m not trolling, or unaware of the “ridiculous” nature of my question.

I went from 148 to 205 when I started lifting, and went through various nutrition ideas until I found success.

It just happens that I have health reasons I need to limit fat in my diet... I was really just wondering if anyone here HAD limited fat in their diet, and what the physical response ended up being.

I don’t want to get banned for restarting this thread— I’m ok with the mods closing it if they want.

Thanks again for reading guys.

If you don't mind talking about it, what medical reason do you have to limit dietary fat intake? You definitely can stay on a low fat diet, it's just by no means optimal. You'll suffer quality of life decrease through various pathways. Dietary fat intake can be lowered for short periods of time without much issue, but chronic limitation will over time create complications.

desslok
08-23-2018, 07:39 PM
Why would anybody here do something that stupid? Most people here have passed high school biology already.

Goingviking
08-23-2018, 08:40 PM
The Okinawa people who are some of the longest living people on record and consumed about 6 percent of their calories from fat:

http://www.okicent.org/docs/500s_willcox_okinawa_diet.pdf

If you read the book, the China Study, you will also see low fat populations with a higher lifespan and general better health in old age.

I believe that fat is overrated in its role in bodybuilding, and that fat is a good place to start when cutting calories while taking a moderate approach to body re-composition. I will not deny that there are hunger suppressing benefits of a low carb(ketogenic) diet, but for overall health a diet rich in fruits and vegetables will provide more vitamins, antioxidants and minerals which will lead to better muscle recovery. Hormone health and fat soluble vitamins absorption is a concern in a zero fat environment but it appears that the Okinawans and other low fat populations appear to be an example that fat does not need to be high for optimal human functioning. My approach is to to avoid fat heavy foods and just take what ever fat comes along with my lean proteins(chicken, salmon, liver, turkey) and vegetables(spinach is 14 percent fat for example).

When looking at improving body composition we have three approaches: lose fat, gain muscle, or do a combination of both. Losing fat is done by reducing calories while providing adequate protein and carbs to preserve muscle in order to aim the deficit at fat storage. High fats diets do not have a benefit to weight loss; low carb ones do by suppressing hunger(this suppression of hunger is behind the success of Keto not the fat consumption). However carbs and protein do preserve muscle during weight loss(though a dieter may want to utilize protein mainly to keep hunger down), which makes protein and to a lower extent carbs a higher priority than fats when losing weight if muscle preservation is a side goal. While calorie deficits fuel weight loss it is macro choice that determines how much weight comes from muscle and how much weight comes from fat storage.

Gaining muscle in order to improve body composition is also highly dependent on carbs and protein. While lowfat diets can lower testosterone most nutrition professionals do not believe its to a high enough level to affect muscle growth. Only anabolic steroids affect testosterone to a level high enough to make a difference in muscle growth. Protein on the other hand is used to keep nitrogen balance, and carbs aid in this process by increasing insulin(an anabolic hormone). Moreover carbs are needed to actually perform at peak level and get the extra volume or intensity that will trigger new muscle growth. So again fat has very little impact on new muscle growth. Instead we see stimulus(workout fueled by carbs) and recovery(nitrogen balance fueled by protein and a lesser extent carbs) driving new muscle growth.

It is carbs combined with dietary fat that are making America obese, because the body is anabolic do to insulin, the body has an abundance of carbs to use, and high levels of dietary fats to store. Compare this with a moderate carb/high protein BUT low fat diet where insulin is high enough to fuel exercise, aminos are being funneled in muscles, BUT there are low amounts of fats to store. This ladder scenario is the optimal muscle building environment nutritionally in my opinion.

The moderate carb, low fat, high protein diet is what I would recommend for people recomping(trying to gain muscle and lose fat at same time). The body goes through cycles of prioritizing fat and prioritizing carbs (https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fundamentals_of_Human_Nutrition/Energy_systems), and quite simply it makes sense that by restricting dietary fat that the body will prioritize stored fat whenever it is using fats to fuel body functions.

I know I am in the minority here as there are many people who preach whatever info is on the stickies, but I want to present this view as I think the common advice on this forum leads to people just eating the typical American diet(High fat, High Protein, High Carbs). High fat is just a trend in my opinion.

rhadam
08-23-2018, 08:57 PM
The Okinawa people who are some of the longest living people on record consumed about 6 percent of their calories from fat:

http://www.okicent.org/docs/500s_willcox_okinawa_diet.pdf

If you read the book, the China Study, you will also see low fat populations with a higher lifespan and general better health in old age.

I believe that fat is overrated in its role in bodybuilding, and that fat is a good place to start when cutting calories while taking a moderate approach to body re-composition. I will not deny that there are hunger suppressing benefits of a low carb(ketogenic) diet, but for overall health a diet rich in fruits and vegetables will provide more vitamins, antioxidants and minerals which will lead to better muscle recovery. Hormone health and fat soluble vitamins absorption is a concern in a zero fat environment but it appears that the Okinawans and other low fat populations appear to be an example that fat does not need to be high for optimal human functioning. My approach is to to avoid fat heavy foods and just take what ever fat comes along with my lean proteins(chicken, salmon, liver, turkey) and vegetables(spinach is 14 percent fat for example).

When looking at improving body composition we have three approaches: lose fat, gain muscle, or do a combination of both. Losing fat is done by reducing calories while providing adequate protein and carbs to preserve muscle in order to aim the deficit at fat storage. High fats diets do not have a benefit to weight loss; low carb ones do by suppressing hunger(this suppression of hunger is behind the success of Keto not the fat consumption). However carbs and protein do preserve muscle during weight loss(though a dieter may want to utilize protein mainly to keep hunger down), which makes protein and to a lower extent carbs a higher priority than fats when losing weight if muscle preservation is a side goal. While calorie deficits fuel weight loss it is macro choice that determines how much weight comes from muscle and how much weight comes from fat storage.

Gaining muscle in order to improve body composition is also highly dependent on carbs and protein. While lowfat diets can lower testosterone most nutrition professionals do not believe its to a high enough level to affect muscle growth. Only anabolic steroids affect testosterone to a level high enough to make a difference in muscle growth. Protein on the other hand is used to keep nitrogen balance, and carbs aid in this process by increasing insulin(an anabolic hormone). Moreover carbs are needed to actually perform at peak level and get the extra volume or intensity that will trigger new muscle growth. So again fat has very little impact on new muscle growth. Instead we see stimulus(workout fueled by carbs) and recovery(nitrogen balance fueled by protein and a lesser extent carbs) driving new muscle growth.

It is carbs combined with fat that are making America obese, because the body is anabolic do to insulin, the body has an abundance of carbs to use, and high levels of dietary fats to store. Compare this with a moderate carb/high protein BUT low fat diet where insulin is high enough to fuel exercise, aminos are being funneled in muscles, BUT there are low amounts of fats to store. This ladder scenario is the optimal muscle building environment nutritionally in my opinion.

The moderate carb, low fat, high protein diet is what I would recommend for people recomping(trying to gain muscle and lose fat at same time). The body goes through cycles of prioritizing fat and prioritizing carbs (https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fundamentals_of_Human_Nutrition/Energy_systems), and quite simply it makes sense that by restricting dietary fat that the body will prioritize stored fat when needed.

I know I am in the minority here as there are many peoples who preach whatever info are on the stickies, but I want to present this view as I think the common advice on this forum leads to people just eating the typical American diet(High fat, High Protein, High Carbs). High fat is just a trend in my opinion.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL my god it's been a while since someone has cited the china study. I needed a good laugh.

dest0
08-24-2018, 02:44 AM
The Okinawa people who are some of the longest living people on record and consumed about 6 percent of their calories from fat:

http://www.okicent.org/docs/500s_willcox_okinawa_diet.pdf

If you read the book, the China Study, you will also see low fat populations with a higher lifespan and general better health in old age.

I believe that fat is overrated in its role in bodybuilding, and that fat is a good place to start when cutting calories while taking a moderate approach to body re-composition. I will not deny that there are hunger suppressing benefits of a low carb(ketogenic) diet, but for overall health a diet rich in fruits and vegetables will provide more vitamins, antioxidants and minerals which will lead to better muscle recovery. Hormone health and fat soluble vitamins absorption is a concern in a zero fat environment but it appears that the Okinawans and other low fat populations appear to be an example that fat does not need to be high for optimal human functioning. My approach is to to avoid fat heavy foods and just take what ever fat comes along with my lean proteins(chicken, salmon, liver, turkey) and vegetables(spinach is 14 percent fat for example).

When looking at improving body composition we have three approaches: lose fat, gain muscle, or do a combination of both. Losing fat is done by reducing calories while providing adequate protein and carbs to preserve muscle in order to aim the deficit at fat storage. High fats diets do not have a benefit to weight loss; low carb ones do by suppressing hungerthis suppression of hunger is behind the success of Keto not the fat consumption). However carbs and protein do preserve muscle during weight loss(though a dieter may want to utilize protein mainly to keep hunger down), which makes protein and to a lower extent carbs a higher priority than fats when losing weight if muscle preservation is a side goal. While calorie deficits fuel weight loss it is macro choice that determines how much weight comes from muscle and how much weight comes from fat storage.

Gaining muscle in order to improve body composition is also highly dependent on carbs and protein. While lowfat diets can lower testosterone most nutrition professionals do not believe its to a high enough level to affect muscle growth. Only anabolic steroids affect testosterone to a level high enough to make a difference in muscle growth. Protein on the other hand is used to keep nitrogen balance, and carbs aid in this process by increasing insulin(an anabolic hormone). Moreover carbs are needed to actually perform at peak level and get the extra volume or intensity that will trigger new muscle growth. So again fat has very little impact on new muscle growth. Instead we see stimulus(workout fueled by carbs) and recovery(nitrogen balance fueled by protein and a lesser extent carbs) driving new muscle growth.

It is carbs combined with dietary fat that are making America obese, because the body is anabolic do to insulin, the body has an abundance of carbs to use, and high levels of dietary fats to store. Compare this with a moderate carb/high protein BUT low fat diet where insulin is high enough to fuel exercise, aminos are being funneled in muscles, BUT there are low amounts of fats to store. This ladder scenario is the optimal muscle building environment nutritionally in my opinion.

The moderate carb, low fat, high protein diet is what I would recommend for people recomping(trying to gain muscle and lose fat at same time). The body goes through cycles of prioritizing fat and prioritizing carbs (https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fundamentals_of_Human_Nutrition/Energy_systems), and quite simply it makes sense that by restricting dietary fat that the body will prioritize stored fat whenever it is using fats to fuel body functions.

I know I am in the minority here as there are many people who preach whatever info is on the stickies, but I want to present this view as I think the common advice on this forum leads to people just eating the typical American diet(High fat, High Protein, High Carbs). High fat is just a trend in my opinion.

So many wrongs things in your post, I don't even know where to start.. I'm only highlighting what I find absolutely absurd.

1. Fat isn't overrated, dietary fat is very important wtihin one's nutritional plan.

2. You mentioned that high fat diet doesn't aid weight loss, then you went on to mention that Keto is banging when it's a high fat, high protein diet? hmmm.. news flash: what aids weight loss is being in a caloric deficit regardless of your macro distribution.

3. As long as you're hitting your protein & fat minimums whilst being on a solid work out program, your muscle retention will be high. Being on a low fat diet is in NO way going to aid in a better muscle composition whilst on a cut over a high fat diet..

4. Based on what study?

5. Body recomposition is NOT based on a moderate carbs, high protein, low fat. That's just utter bull****. I've easily recomped on high protein, high fat, and low carbs. Body recomposition depends on many factors included but not limited to how advanced is the athlete, and their body fat percentage.

/end of rant.

niculus
08-24-2018, 08:02 AM
Thanks again to those participating in the thread, and for the detailed response!

When I mentioned my exact medical problem, my thread was closed, because the mods didn’t think it wise for me to seek medical advice over a forum. I respect that.

I’m not dying, and I’m ok.

:)

If someone is really THAT interested they can pm me I suppose.

Once again, I know the common (and uncommon,) wisdom of bodybuilding nutrition— been there, done that: keto, carb cycling/carb loading, high(er) protein diets of 200-275g, high carb, etc.


I just never knew anyone who ever did bodybuilding with say only 5-15% fat in their diet.... I assumed maybe someone somewhere had tried it, and I’d consider their anecdotal experience to see what I might experience if I did the same.

Thanks again everyone, take care and have a good weekend

dest0
08-24-2018, 08:47 AM
The thing is, if there's any added benefit of trying it, we would have, but there isn't.

You will build a decent physique on a well structured, balanced diet with a proven lifting program and progressive overload; there's no magic trick, there are no pills (well there are..) but it's all with hard work and consistency.

Mrpb
08-24-2018, 09:13 AM
The Okinawa people who are some of the longest living people on record and consumed about 6 percent of their calories from fat.

And the other 4 Blue Zones you cleverly left out ate more fat. Especially Sardinia (Italy) and Icaria (Greece).

Goingviking
08-24-2018, 11:20 PM
And the other 4 Blue Zones you cleverly left out ate more fat. Especially Sardinia (Italy) and Icaria (Greece).

It wasn't my intention to say that eating low fat is the only way to live healthy, or get lean as I have used various methods myself to lose weight. I used the Okinawa as an example of why having a minimum on fat is snake oil; my point being that you can eat very low levels of fats by our standards and still have healthy hormone levels and no fat soluble vitamin deficiencies. There is no concrete evidence justifying adding high levels of fat to a diet while bodybuilding. Fats are calorie dense foods, and seem to only help in weight loss when paired with a very low carb diet(which is usually a diet absent of many essential vitamins and minerals).

Goingviking
08-24-2018, 11:49 PM
So many wrongs things in your post, I don't even know where to start.. I'm only highlighting what I find absolutely absurd.

1. Fat isn't overrated, dietary fat is very important wtihin one's nutritional plan.

2. You mentioned that high fat diet doesn't aid weight loss, then you went on to mention that Keto is banging when it's a high fat, high protein diet? hmmm.. news flash: what aids weight loss is being in a caloric deficit regardless of your macro distribution.

3. As long as you're hitting your protein & fat minimums whilst being on a solid work out program, your muscle retention will be high. Being on a low fat diet is in NO way going to aid in a better muscle composition whilst on a cut over a high fat diet..

4. Based on what study?

5. Body recomposition is NOT based on a moderate carbs, high protein, low fat. That's just utter bull****. I've easily recomped on high protein, high fat, and low carbs. Body recomposition depends on many factors included but not limited to how advanced is the athlete, and their body fat percentage.

/end of rant.

I'm not really anti fat, and if I had to guess I would say I eat between 15 and 25 percent fat daily. The issue I have is fatty foods are calorie dense foods, and when people start adding an extra few hundred calories of fat to each meal because people are preaching about minimums peoples goals are being affected.

1.None of your points were very compelling. I admitted in my first statement that fat is important for hormones and fat soluble vitamin absorption. I just think you need way less than what people say on this forum. Also I was refering to fat not being very important for bodybuilding. No one has provided a study contradicting my statement, so I am don't feel the need to provide one confirming my statement.

2: "Losing fat is done by reducing calories while providing adequate protein and carbs to preserve muscle in order to aim the deficit at fat storage."was is in my original post AND WAS WHERE I REFERRED TO CALORIE DEFICIT. Though a calorie deficit on an 100 percent fat diet would result in significant muscle loss when compared to a calorie deficit on a 100 percent carb or protein diet(Macros matter hence the protein minimum). Keto diet reduces hunger by eliminating carbs; fat is just a replacement macro. Reduction in hunger creates the calorie deficit. Muscle loss is a risk of keto since protein and carbs are low

3.Fat has nothing to do with muscle retention. Muscle is broken down in a calorie deficit when carb levels are so low that the brain and other glucose dependent processes look for tissue to break down. A protein minimum may prevent this by providing dietary protein to be converted to glucose, but the more direct route is to just consume enough carbs to fuel this process while in a deficit. Protein that is converted to carbs cannot also be used to repair muscle tissue. A reason why a low fat diet may be better for better body compositon is that fats are being replaced with muscle sparring macros(carbs and protein). Obviously some people who can eat less or stay on a diet longer do to the benefits of hunger suppression may fair better on a keto type diet, but my point is that a carb and protein focused diet is better for muscle preservation if the diet can be followed.

4. Are you presenting a study for your points?

5. I never said body recomposition is based on a set macro combination. I recommend the macro combination for the reasons I stated above. To recomp you need to be wise about your macro selection. Carbs are a priority for fueling exercise, protein is important for building muscle, and fat can be the filler at the end of the day. I agree with you last sentence in this point, and maybe I tend to preference carbs because I do MMA training 10 hours a week, and 4 hours of weight lifting and therefore have a higher need for carbs. I have said in other posts that I think some people do better on lower carbs and high fat diets when they live a sedetary life and do a few half ass gym sessions a week.

In conclusion I am not really against fat; I just see a bunch of conformists giving out cookie cutter recommendations when half of them have never even read a basic nutrition book.

Mrpb
08-25-2018, 12:13 AM
It wasn't my intention to say that eating low fat is the only way to live healthy, or get lean as I have used various methods myself to lose weight. I used the Okinawa as an example of why having a minimum on fat is snake oil;

Your reasoning is bogus. Having low testosterone is fine if you want to become old and frail. It sucks if you want to become strong and muscular.

By the way, discussing the recommended minimum fat intake is fine, calling it snakeoil without understanding what it's based on is not.


There is no concrete evidence justifying adding high levels of fat to a diet while bodybuilding.

0.4 gram per lb is high nowadays? Wut?

And no evidence?

1. Stoppani J, Scheett TP, and Mcguiggan MR. Nutritional needs of strength/power athletes. In: Essentials of Sports Nutrition and Supplements. Antonio J, Kalman D, Stout JR, Greenwood M, Willoughby DS, and Haff GG, eds. New York, NY: Humana Press-Springer, 2008. pp. 349-370.

2. Kraemer WJ, Fragala MS, and Volek JS. Nutrition for muscle development. In: Strength Training. Brown LE, ed. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics, 2007. pp. 73-94.

3. Bird SP: Strength nutrition: maximizing your anabolic potential. Strength Cond J. 2010, 32: 80-86. 10.1519/SSC.0b013e3181d5284e.

4. Volek J, Kramer W. Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology. http://jap.physiology.org/content/82/1/49. Accessed February 12, 2017.

5. Hämäläinen E, Adlercreutz H, Puska P, Pietinen P. Diet and serum sex hormones in healthy men. J Steroid Biochem. 1984;20(1):459-464. [PubMed]

6. Bélanger A, Locong A, Noel C, et al. Influence of diet on plasma steroids and sex hormone-binding globulin levels in adult men. J Steroid Biochem. 1989;32(6):829-833. [PubMed]

7. Hill P, Wynder E. Effect of a vegetarian diet and dexamethasone on plasma prolactin, testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone in men and women. Cancer Lett. 1979;7(5):273-282. [PubMed]

8. Howie B, Shultz T. Dietary and hormonal interrelationships among vegetarian Seventh-Day Adventists and nonvegetarian men. Am J Clin Nutr. 1985;42(1):127-134. [PubMed]

9. Key T, Roe L, Thorogood M, Moore J, Clark G, Wang D. Testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, calculated free testosterone, and oestradiol in male vegans and omnivores. Br J Nutr. 1990;64(1):111-119. [PubMed]

10. Tegelman R, Aberg T, Pousette A, Carlström K. Effects of a diet regimen on pituitary and steroid hormones in male ice hockey players. Int J Sports Med. 1992;13(5):424-430. [PubMed]

11. Mylonas C, Kouretas D. Lipid peroxidation and tissue damage. In Vivo. 1999;13(3):295-309. [PubMed]

Goingviking
08-25-2018, 10:23 AM
Your reasoning is bogus. Having low testosterone is fine if you want to become old and frail. It sucks if you want to become strong and muscular.

By the way, discussing the recommended minimum fat intake is fine, calling it snakeoil without understanding what it's based on is not.



0.4 gram per lb is high nowadays? Wut?

And no evidence?

1. Stoppani J, Scheett TP, and Mcguiggan MR. Nutritional needs of strength/power athletes. In: Essentials of Sports Nutrition and Supplements. Antonio J, Kalman D, Stout JR, Greenwood M, Willoughby DS, and Haff GG, eds. New York, NY: Humana Press-Springer, 2008. pp. 349-370.

2. Kraemer WJ, Fragala MS, and Volek JS. Nutrition for muscle development. In: Strength Training. Brown LE, ed. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics, 2007. pp. 73-94.

3. Bird SP: Strength nutrition: maximizing your anabolic potential. Strength Cond J. 2010, 32: 80-86. 10.1519/SSC.0b013e3181d5284e.

4. Volek J, Kramer W. Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology. http://jap.physiology.org/content/82/1/49. Accessed February 12, 2017.

5. Hämäläinen E, Adlercreutz H, Puska P, Pietinen P. Diet and serum sex hormones in healthy men. J Steroid Biochem. 1984;20(1):459-464. [PubMed]

6. Bélanger A, Locong A, Noel C, et al. Influence of diet on plasma steroids and sex hormone-binding globulin levels in adult men. J Steroid Biochem. 1989;32(6):829-833. [PubMed]

7. Hill P, Wynder E. Effect of a vegetarian diet and dexamethasone on plasma prolactin, testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone in men and women. Cancer Lett. 1979;7(5):273-282. [PubMed]

8. Howie B, Shultz T. Dietary and hormonal interrelationships among vegetarian Seventh-Day Adventists and nonvegetarian men. Am J Clin Nutr. 1985;42(1):127-134. [PubMed]

9. Key T, Roe L, Thorogood M, Moore J, Clark G, Wang D. Testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, calculated free testosterone, and oestradiol in male vegans and omnivores. Br J Nutr. 1990;64(1):111-119. [PubMed]

10. Tegelman R, Aberg T, Pousette A, Carlström K. Effects of a diet regimen on pituitary and steroid hormones in male ice hockey players. Int J Sports Med. 1992;13(5):424-430. [PubMed]

11. Mylonas C, Kouretas D. Lipid peroxidation and tissue damage. In Vivo. 1999;13(3):295-309. [PubMed]

I honestly appreciate these references. I will look through them, and I am not so stubborn to change an opinion if I find them compelling enough. Thanks!

Mrpb
08-25-2018, 10:32 AM
I honestly appreciate these references. I will look through them, and I am not so stubborn to change an opinion if I find them compelling enough. Thanks!

YW. Keep in mind I usually say I don't think there's any problem with going to 0.3 gram per lb. However, it's probably not optimal.

Just like with protein, many people will do perfectly fine with 1.4 gram per kg, yet we recommend 1.6 gram per kg as a minimum.

Goingviking
08-25-2018, 11:07 AM
Your reasoning is bogus. Having low testosterone is fine if you want to become old and frail. It sucks if you want to become strong and muscular.

By the way, discussing the recommended minimum fat intake is fine, calling it snakeoil without understanding what it's based on is not.



0.4 gram per lb is high nowadays? Wut?

And no evidence?

1. Stoppani J, Scheett TP, and Mcguiggan MR. Nutritional needs of strength/power athletes. In: Essentials of Sports Nutrition and Supplements. Antonio J, Kalman D, Stout JR, Greenwood M, Willoughby DS, and Haff GG, eds. New York, NY: Humana Press-Springer, 2008. pp. 349-370.

2. Kraemer WJ, Fragala MS, and Volek JS. Nutrition for muscle development. In: Strength Training. Brown LE, ed. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics, 2007. pp. 73-94.

3. Bird SP: Strength nutrition: maximizing your anabolic potential. Strength Cond J. 2010, 32: 80-86. 10.1519/SSC.0b013e3181d5284e.

4. Volek J, Kramer W. Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology. http://jap.physiology.org/content/82/1/49. Accessed February 12, 2017.

5. Hämäläinen E, Adlercreutz H, Puska P, Pietinen P. Diet and serum sex hormones in healthy men. J Steroid Biochem. 1984;20(1):459-464. [PubMed]

6. Bélanger A, Locong A, Noel C, et al. Influence of diet on plasma steroids and sex hormone-binding globulin levels in adult men. J Steroid Biochem. 1989;32(6):829-833. [PubMed]

7. Hill P, Wynder E. Effect of a vegetarian diet and dexamethasone on plasma prolactin, testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone in men and women. Cancer Lett. 1979;7(5):273-282. [PubMed]

8. Howie B, Shultz T. Dietary and hormonal interrelationships among vegetarian Seventh-Day Adventists and nonvegetarian men. Am J Clin Nutr. 1985;42(1):127-134. [PubMed]

9. Key T, Roe L, Thorogood M, Moore J, Clark G, Wang D. Testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, calculated free testosterone, and oestradiol in male vegans and omnivores. Br J Nutr. 1990;64(1):111-119. [PubMed]

10. Tegelman R, Aberg T, Pousette A, Carlström K. Effects of a diet regimen on pituitary and steroid hormones in male ice hockey players. Int J Sports Med. 1992;13(5):424-430. [PubMed]

11. Mylonas C, Kouretas D. Lipid peroxidation and tissue damage. In Vivo. 1999;13(3):295-309. [PubMed]

Interesting paragraph from one of your sources not to contradict from your point, but emphasis some of my earlier statements(especially in regards to keto):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033492/

"Competing bodybuilders must make an obligatory caloric reduction. If a reduction in fat is utilized, it may be possible to attenuate a drop in testosterone by maintaining adequate consumption of saturated fat [5]. However, a drop in testosterone does not equate to a reduction in LBM. In direct studies of resistance trained athletes undergoing calorically restricted high protein diets, low fat interventions that maintain carbohydrate levels [13,29] appear to be more effective at preventing LBM loses than lower carbohydrate, higher fat approaches [32,40]. These results might indicate that attempting to maintain resistance training performance with higher carbohydrate intakes is more effective for LBM retention than attempting to maintain testosterone levels with higher fat intakes."

I went through a half dozen of your sources, and I have been exposed to many of them over the years. The real question is whether a 13 percent drop in testosterone affects muscle growth enough to warrant the diet transition from a 20 percent diet in fat to a diet in 40 percent fat. Carbs(along with vitamins and minerals stored in those carbs) and Protein need to be reduced in order to achieve the new higher fat intake levels assuming a fixed calorie target:

"While cogent arguments for fat intakes between 20 to 30% of calories have been made to optimize testosterone levels in strength athletes [59], in some cases this intake may be unrealistic in the context of caloric restriction without compromising sufficient protein or carbohydrate intakes. While dieting, low carbohydrate diets may degrade performance [32] and lead to lowered insulin and IGF-1 which appear to be more closely correlated to LBM preservation than testosterone [6]. Thus, a lower end fat intake between 15-20% of calories, which has been previously recommended for bodybuilders [5], can be deemed appropriate if higher percentages would reduce carbohydrate or protein below ideal ranges"

Source:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033492/

I don't think a few studies which tested 20 to 40 males is conclusive enough to say yes or no, without a study that analyzes muscle growth over men with varying ranges of testosterone while comparing the related diets. I think people should just see what works for them..

rhadam
08-25-2018, 04:19 PM
I honestly appreciate these references. I will look through them, and I am not so stubborn to change an opinion if I find them compelling enough. Thanks!

Per your neg comment I would seriously advise you to seek psychological help. I’m saying this for your own good. Seek help.

AdamWW
08-25-2018, 04:22 PM
1. Stoppani J, Scheett TP, and Mcguiggan MR. Nutritional needs of strength/power athletes. In: Essentials of Sports Nutrition and Supplements. Antonio J, Kalman D, Stout JR, Greenwood M, Willoughby DS, and Haff GG, eds. New York, NY: Humana Press-Springer, 2008. pp. 349-370.


Just sayin :)


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/154bianqh5c/maxresdefault.jpg

SOJA
08-25-2018, 04:53 PM
Dang, I'd go for some Haribo gold bears right about now.

rhadam
08-25-2018, 04:55 PM
Dang, I'd go for some Haribo gold bears right about now.

Legit my favorite candy. Used to eat a bag almost every shift lol. Had to quit when I went low carb :(

SOJA
08-25-2018, 05:03 PM
Legit my favorite candy. Used to eat a bag almost every shift lol. Had to quit when I went low carb :(

They're good, but I love em when they're fresh and softer. I like the Green Forest stuff, too. Even if it's far sweeter. They're really soft and make chewing easier. Anyway, I really shouldn't seeing as I ate 6 lb a month ago in a little over a day.

I've tried a few of the other Haribo stuff. It's alright. The cherries and the peaches are good.

rhadam
08-25-2018, 05:24 PM
They're good, but I love em when they're fresh and softer. I like the Green Forest stuff, too. Even if it's far sweeter. They're really soft and make chewing easier. Anyway, I really shouldn't seeing as I ate 6 lb a month ago in a little over a day.

I've tried a few of the other Haribo stuff. It's alright. The cherries and the peaches are good.

Black Forest? Super flavorful, like a rich flavor that tastes expensive. My second choice is the sour octopus from Trolli.

6lb bag of gummy bears in a day? You maniac. Respect.

SOJA
08-25-2018, 05:28 PM
Black Forest? Super flavorful, like a rich flavor that tastes expensive. My second choice is the sour octopus from Trolli.

6lb bag of gummy bears in a day? You maniac. Respect.

I don't like Trolli. It has a doughy texture if that makes sense. If you stretch it out, it rips like raw bread dough. Yeah funny thing is it's cheaper than Haribo. Yeah I bought a giant bag from some place. It's addictive to sit back and toss them back into your mouth. Just gotta take short breaks in between munches. The oil/carnuba they use to coat them makes you feel nauseous after a while.

Vegan/vegetarian gummies are even better. They're soft, very flavorful and they're so easy to chew. Too expensive, though, if you like to eat them often.

desslok
08-25-2018, 08:40 PM
They're good, but I love em when they're fresh and softer. I like the Green Forest stuff, too. Even if it's far sweeter. They're really soft and make chewing easier. Anyway, I really shouldn't seeing as I ate 6 lb a month ago in a little over a day.

I've tried a few of the other Haribo stuff. It's alright. The cherries and the peaches are good.

Last time I was in Germany I tried all the ones I couldn’t get in the states. Thay had a lot of random ones there.

AdamWW
08-25-2018, 09:55 PM
I don't like Trolli. It has a doughy texture if that makes sense. If you stretch it out, it rips like raw bread dough. Yeah funny thing is it's cheaper than Haribo. Yeah I bought a giant bag from some place. It's addictive to sit back and toss them back into your mouth. Just gotta take short breaks in between munches. The oil/carnuba they use to coat them makes you feel nauseous after a while.

Vegan/vegetarian gummies are even better. They're soft, very flavorful and they're so easy to chew. Too expensive, though, if you like to eat them often.

the stupid-expensive gummies at starbucks are solid. but not worth the price.

Mrpb
08-26-2018, 12:54 AM
Interesting paragraph from one of your sources not to contradict from your point, but emphasis some of my earlier statements(especially in regards to keto):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033492/

"Competing bodybuilders ...


Why do you say it's one of my sources when I specifically didn't include it?

I did not include that source because it's aimed at competing bodybuilders. Competing bodybuilders do not mind screwing up their hormones for a couple of months in order to win a contest.

Goingviking
08-26-2018, 10:21 AM
Why do you say it's one of my sources when I specifically didn't include it?

I did not include that source because it's aimed at competing bodybuilders. Competing bodybuilders do not mind screwing up their hormones for a couple of months in order to win a contest.

Oh sorry was copying your sources into google. Must of clicked on wrong link because the same scientist was on the study or they referenced same sources. Will say 9 out of 10 of your sources were either not directly related or just general fat intake recommendations based on conclusions drawn from the same few studies that total combine less than 50 test subjects.

The 1/10 was the study with the 30 test subjects lol:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6298507 .

Is a 13 percent drop in testosterone significant enough to double fat intake at the expense of performance enhancing carbs and muscle building protein? Study doesn't appear to discuss any training regiment lol(probably a few soyboys in there as well).

No this study is the one most applicable to your argument(find a better one), and has only eight weight lifters, and ten other physically active men:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15532008
Note that some hormonal benefits were noticed on the weight lifters and close to no benefits on the other ten men. While we are concerned with the weight lifters, its worth noting that this study contradicts the study above of fat intake having an absolute increase on testosterone. Also note the words "MAY" and "POSSIBLE" in the conclusion. These words are used when a study is not conclusive.

Either way, this is a bodybuilding site, and this review references applicable studies in regards to nutrition for bodybuilders:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033492/

And you can draw the same conclusions that I have been discussing on this thread based on this review, which is that CARBS and PROTEIN are more important than fat when bodybuilding(though the increase to testosterone from eating fats MAY be significant but can be reasonably debated). Again, I am not saying healthy fats should be avoided, just PHUCKIN limited because calorie dense foods tend to make people eat more calories(Its cattle feeding theory).

In many cases fats are just added calories that do not directly build to the structure of muscles like carbs and protein, but are the most easily converted macro to bodyfat and do not increase metabolism(TEF) like carbs and protein.

Also when it comes to screwing up hormones, I recommend doing some research into carbs and thyroid hormones.

Mrpb
08-26-2018, 11:13 AM
Either way, this is a bodybuilding site, and this review references applicable studies in regards to nutrition for bodybuilders:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033492/


The title should be clear enough:


Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding CONTEST preparation

There's a special forum for contest preparation. You might like it.


I am not saying healthy fats should be avoided, just PHUCKIN limited because calorie dense foods tend to make people eat more calories(Its cattle feeding theory).

I've never seen a study suggesting that low fat is somehow better (than 0.4 gram per lb) for satiety.

And we're not dealing with ruminants here.