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Strawng
06-12-2018, 08:18 PM
I eat a pescetarian diet (fish/eggs/dairy) but I've been eating fish less often due to my current financial situation. I haven't had fish since April, but was thinking about including it again. I currently eat chia seeds and acai a couple times per week & don't supplement with fish oil, but I know the EFAs in plants aren't absorbed as well. How important would it be for me to reintroduce fish, & what are the possible health effects of me failing to do so?

rhadam
06-12-2018, 09:22 PM
Do you have any idea of your current (diet's) EPA and DHA content?

Mrpb
06-12-2018, 11:24 PM
How important would it be for me to reintroduce fish, & what are the possible health effects of me failing to do so?

Tough question. From what I've seen eating fatty fish ~3x per week is a good idea, not just for the EPA/DHA, also for the vitamin D, protein, minerals etc. The benefits are hard to quantify.

Personally I try to eat wild salmon and sardines ~3x per week. There may be some brain benefits as well.

Elokuu
06-13-2018, 03:07 AM
Two quick questions related to the topic that may be of interest for OP as well:

1. The best kind of canned sardines I can find are "canned sardines in tomato sauce" (without sugar and with still 4g of fats per 100g). Are these fine for getting omega 3 fats? Are such fats well conserved in cans or may they go bad as well?

2. I have been buying fish oil capsules, in opaque containers, but upon opening I have always smelled some very strong fish smell. How do I know whether their fish oil is not rancid and beneficial? Moreover, some other vitamins are found in these capsules and one of them is obviously vitamin E. The only problem is that it is the "artificial" kind (starting with "DL"); do you think it may have unwanted effects, since it is not the "natural" vitamin E?

Thanks for the much appreciated help.

Nedo
06-13-2018, 05:22 AM
Tough question. From what I've seen eating fatty fish ~3x per week is a good idea, not just for the EPA/DHA, also for the vitamin D, protein, minerals etc. The benefits are hard to quantify.

Personally I try to eat wild salmon and sardines ~3x per week. There may be some brain benefits as well.

Are you avoiding Pacific salmon due to the nuclear reactor leak?

I'm on wild Alaskan salmon, but fuk me its expensive. $40 cad for 8-9 fillets.

OP: if money is tight, get on some fish oil pills.

Mrpb
06-13-2018, 06:12 AM
Are you avoiding Pacific salmon due to the nuclear reactor leak?

I'm on wild Alaskan salmon, but fuk me its expensive. $40 cad for 8-9 fillets.

OP: if money is tight, get on some fish oil pills.

I buy frozen pacific wild salmon from China. Quite cheap here.

I avoid farmed salmon because last time I checked various toxins were quite high.

Latest meta analysis on fish oil failed to find a benefit for heart health. It remains to be determined whether whole fish is better.
https://examine.com/nutrition/fish-oil-hearth-health/

Plateauplower
06-13-2018, 06:27 AM
I buy frozen pacific wild salmon from China. Quite cheap here.

I avoid farmed salmon because last time I checked various toxins were quite high.

Latest meta analysis on fish oil failed to find a benefit for heart health. It remains to be determined whether whole fish is better.
https://examine.com/nutrition/fish-oil-hearth-health/

I recently looked into this a little Chile farmed salmon seems to be the cleanest farmed fish, they have invested a LOT into their infrastructure and farming techniques. Farmed fish (specifically salmon) from anywhere do get a pretty hefty antibiotic regimen just due to their susceptibility to various bacterial diseases living in such high population densities, farmed trout apparently don't need much in terms antibiotics but don't have much O3 either . Farmed fish have higher Omega 3 ratios than wild counterparts in what I read. They are also about twice as calorie dense due to high fat content. I eat both, fresh farmed (which is freaking amazing just oven baked with some coarse ground salt) and frozen wild (not from china). The frozen wild are almost unpalatable compared to the farmed fresh, but I have started smoking them at 160 degrees for 2.5 hrs with hickory chips and usually just a dry rub 4lbs at a time and they are amazing that way. I take High potency NOW brand fish oil sup when fish is lacking in my diet, and omit it when I am regularly eating fish. I have been working on buying the fresh when it is reduced for sell by date and freezing it. Otherwise $8/lb is a little more than I like to pay for protein and fat sources for regular consumption (i.e. rather than special meals etc)

Mrpb
06-13-2018, 06:29 AM
I recently looked into this a little Chile farmed salmon seems to be the cleanest farmed fish, they have invested a LOT into their infrastructure and farming techniques.

Do you have peer reviewed data that shows that? From the data that I've seen wild salmon is lower on toxins than farmed salmon.

Not sure if you know but smoking fish has some serious downsides for health.

Plateauplower
06-13-2018, 06:38 AM
Do you have peer reviewed data that shows that? From the data that I've seen wild salmon is lower on toxins than farmed salmon.

Not sure if you know but smoking fish will take away some of the health benefits.
No studies handy that I can point you to....I just kept looking at a variety of different studies and sources and it was several months ago when I was looking.
It would depend on where the wild fish was from in terms of "toxins". Heavy metals primarily accumulate in fish tissue through biomagnification, predatory fish eating prey fish which feed on down the food chain to the bottom feeding invertebrates which feed in the zone where metals such as cadmium, mercury etc settle out. Because metals are slow to be cleared, typically larger older fish tend to accumulate more. Farmed fish environments are controlled a little more, but I'm not sure if I would make a habit of eating them daily...

I wouldn't think smoking fish would be very detrimental, I use an electric smoker, which is essentially a low heat electric oven that smolders some wood chips for flavor. Sure there would be some potential "carcinogens" from the smoke, but for the flavor, its a risk I am willing to take....

I work in the water industry and we have aquatic biologists that do surveys on fish and toxins etc based on water quality of the system. Game fish and bottom feeders are always the highest in terms of "toxins". Filter feeders like the crazy Asian carp that are an invasive species here are surprisingly free of contaminants. They feed in the middle of the water column and do not ingest prey fish, they don't scrounge around on the bottom where metals are, nor do they feed at the top where petroleum chemicals accumulate.

Mrpb
06-13-2018, 06:58 AM
No studies handy that I can point you to...

OK. Let me know if you see some. Personally I remain skeptical of the idea of a farmed salmon that's low on toxins.



I wouldn't think smoking fish would be very detrimental, I use an electric smoker, which is essentially a low heat electric oven that smolders some wood chips for flavor. Sure there would be some potential "carcinogens" from the smoke, but for the flavor, its a risk I am willing to take....


Yeah smoking forms carcinogens like polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.

Plateauplower
06-13-2018, 07:29 AM
OK. Let me know if you see some. Personally I remain skeptical of the idea of a farmed salmon that's low on toxins.



Yeah smoking forms carcinogens like polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.

I don't think wild or farmed fish are going to be LOW in toxins by default, its a shame, but xenobiotic chemicals are pretty much prevalent EVERYWHERE. I eat wild game, even the deer I eat are routinely exposed to chemicals to some degree. They are eating crops sprayed with herbicides/insecticides (they probably even get directly sprayed incidentally as well when living in corn fields when the corn is tall and farmers are applying chemical via airplane)

Gotta eat something though....

Yea PAHs occur grilling too, I'd have to live in a bubble and eat only boiled or steamed certified organic food if I was going to concern myself with trivial things. I'm a risk taker I guess. I often grill non organic beef and just eat it without a second thought...

Mrpb
06-13-2018, 07:46 AM
1. The best kind of canned sardines I can find are "canned sardines in tomato sauce" (without sugar and with still 4g of fats per 100g). Are these fine for getting omega 3 fats? Are such fats well conserved in cans or may they go bad as well?

I'd prefer sardines in water, olive oil or sunflower oil. Less additives = better in my opinion.


I don't think wild or farmed fish are going to be LOW in toxins by default

yeah wild Pacific salmon tends to be significantly lower in toxins than the farmed salmon being sold here, at least that's when I looked at various studies a while back. Farmed salmon from Chile may be an exception, I don't know. I'd need to see hard data to believe it. YMMV.

And frying salmon on a lower temperature in some olive oil doesn't have the negative health effects that are caused by smoking. Each to his own I guess.

Nedo
06-13-2018, 09:16 AM
I work in the water industry and we have aquatic biologists that do surveys on fish and toxins etc based on water quality of the system. Game fish and bottom feeders are always the highest in terms of "toxins". Filter feeders like the crazy Asian carp that are an invasive species here are surprisingly free of contaminants. They feed in the middle of the water column and do not ingest prey fish, they don't scrounge around on the bottom where metals are, nor do they feed at the top where petroleum chemicals accumulate.

Avid walleye fisherman checking in. If I like to eat walleye, should I proceed with caution? They don't bottom feed because they can't see below themselves (only straight and above). However, they do spend alot of their time hugging the bottom so it sounds like this would expose them to metals based on what you've said?

Plateauplower
06-13-2018, 09:29 AM
Avid walleye fisherman checking in. If I like to eat walleye, should I proceed with caution? They don't bottom feed because they can't see below themselves (only straight and above). However, they do spend alot of their time hugging the bottom so it sounds like this would expose them to metals based on what you've said?

Walleye are delicious....Chances are yes, you would want to limit your consumption. You can check with your Department of Natural Resources or with the EPA to see what kinds of consumption advisories are in effect for your area. It is usually based on X number of meals per month. From what I have seen, Bass (small mouth and large mouth, walleye, northern etc, and even crappie have issues. Many of the metals and other toxins have accumulated from years of point and non-point source pollution. Mercury settles out of the air from coal fired power plants and even effects the most pristine and remote waters.

True story, my dad was eating a LOT of fish that he was catching at a fishing club he belongs to and ended up having pretty high mercury levels. He has since gone to catch and release from there except for blue gills (blue gills always seem to have very low toxicity buildup, they eat a lot of bugs though....

broganoff
06-13-2018, 10:45 AM
If you can smell fish in the fish oil pill bottle, it means that the fish oil has oxidized. Toss it.

At a minimum, the bottle should not smell. The gold standard is being able to bite into the pill and not have it taste bad. I take a single New Rhythm triple strength everyday, and I can bite into them without being grossed out.

Strawng
06-13-2018, 04:53 PM
I buy frozen pacific wild salmon from China. Quite cheap here.

I avoid farmed salmon because last time I checked various toxins were quite high.

Latest meta analysis on fish oil failed to find a benefit for heart health. It remains to be determined whether whole fish is better.
https://examine.com/nutrition/fish-oil-hearth-health/


Do you have any idea of your current (diet's) EPA and DHA content?
No EPA or DHA because it's all plant-based sources of Omega-3s since April.


Tough question. From what I've seen eating fatty fish ~3x per week is a good idea, not just for the EPA/DHA, also for the vitamin D, protein, minerals etc. The benefits are hard to quantify.

Personally I try to eat wild salmon and sardines ~3x per week. There may be some brain benefits as well.
Ok, so the health benefits of fish seem to extend farther than simply it's EPA/DHA content to such a degree that fish oil pills alone don't offer any noticeable benefit on health? In that case, I'll start reincorporating fish into my diet more regularly.

AdamWW
06-13-2018, 05:34 PM
Out of curiosity, are you grinding the chia? Whether it's chia or flax, grinding them is essential to maximize absorption and conversion.

AdamWW
06-13-2018, 10:12 PM
It's not like super powers brosef.



Nope. Only applies to flax because it's outer shell is impermeable. Chia is digested, ground or not. I'm like THE Chia Master. You should totes trust me. I've probably eaten over sixty pounds of chia seeds in the last few years.

interdasting... did not know that!

Mrpb
06-13-2018, 10:55 PM
Ok, so the health benefits of fish seem to extend farther than simply it's EPA/DHA content to such a degree that fish oil pills alone don't offer any noticeable benefit on health?

I personally think so but it remains controversial. What is rather clear in epidemiology is that of the various sorts of meats fish usually comes out best.

And there may be benefits to EPA/DHA so eating fatty fish ~3x per week should take care of that. This happens to be what Alan recommends in his Lean Muscle Diet book too.

But don't get me wrong I don't really believe that eating fish or consuming fish oil are necessary to be healthy.

Nedo
06-14-2018, 05:16 AM
But don't get me wrong I don't really believe that eating fish or consuming fish oil are necessary to be healthy.

I've been on fish oil for years. The ONLY difference I have noticed is improved mood, especially when on cut given you are more grumpy in a deficit. However, wasn't it Lyle who said if you are going to take 1 supplement, take fish oil.

Mrpb
06-14-2018, 05:45 AM
I've been on fish oil for years. The ONLY difference I have noticed is improved mood, especially when on cut given you are more grumpy in a deficit. However, wasn't it Lyle who said if you are going to take 1 supplement, take fish oil.

Lyle is a big fan of fish oil. But the evidence isn't as strong as he portrays it to be, imo.

Lyle is also a big fan of recommending ~1.5 gram protein per lb for everyone.

The effects of fish/fish oil on mood may be (solely) due to EPA. Interesting info here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10160400382265317&set=a.10150697458865317.701579.811665316&type=3&theater (for correct understanding of the image it's important to read the comments).

AdamWW
06-14-2018, 07:52 AM
Lyle is a big fan of fish oil. But the evidence isn't as strong as he portrays it to be, imo.

Lyle is also a big fan of recommending ~1.5 gram protein per lb for everyone.

The effects of fish/fish oil on mood may be (solely) due to EPA. Interesting info here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10160400382265317&set=a.10150697458865317.701579.811665316&type=3&theater (for correct understanding of the image it's important to read the comments).

I have heard similar things regarding fish oil's benefits to be largely exaggerated at least in the dosages many are consuming.

Also not sure how much of the hype was generated by 'poor' studies vs industry (supplement) nonsense.

Personally I take a low-dose omega-3 every day if I don't consume salmon, but it's algae-based DHA.

I also consume 3-4oz of cooked wild alaskan salmon 2 times per weak or so, unless I have salmon sushi. Seems to be working fine.

Nedo
06-14-2018, 09:14 AM
Lyle is a big fan of fish oil. But the evidence isn't as strong as he portrays it to be, imo.

Lyle is also a big fan of recommending ~1.5 gram protein per lb for everyone.

The effects of fish/fish oil on mood may be (solely) due to EPA. Interesting info here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10160400382265317&set=a.10150697458865317.701579.811665316&type=3&theater (for correct understanding of the image it's important to read the comments).

Thanks for link but can't view it from work right now.

To your knowledge, has the research proven the claimed anti-inflammatory benefits? I had a natural path tell me that fish oil is the most potent natural anti-inflammatory. I haven't noticed this, even on combined EPA/DHA dosage of 3600mg.

Nedo
06-14-2018, 09:20 AM
Walleye are delicious....Chances are yes, you would want to limit your consumption. You can check with your Department of Natural Resources or with the EPA to see what kinds of consumption advisories are in effect for your area. It is usually based on X number of meals per month. From what I have seen, Bass (small mouth and large mouth, walleye, northern etc, and even crappie have issues. Many of the metals and other toxins have accumulated from years of point and non-point source pollution. Mercury settles out of the air from coal fired power plants and even effects the most pristine and remote waters.

True story, my dad was eating a LOT of fish that he was catching at a fishing club he belongs to and ended up having pretty high mercury levels. He has since gone to catch and release from there except for blue gills (blue gills always seem to have very low toxicity buildup, they eat a lot of bugs though....

Good points, thanks. I suppose it ain't so bad that I don't catch much when I fish lol. My lake is very seasonal in terms of fishing quality, or atleast that's my excuse :D

Mrpb
06-14-2018, 09:37 AM
Thanks for link but can't view it from work right now.


The image shows a potent effect of EPA in combination with anti depressants on depression. A much larger effect than anti depressants alone.



To your knowledge, has the research proven the claimed anti-inflammatory benefits?

I don't know. I just looked it up on Examine.com: "Minor effect. Highly mixed and unreliable influences on circulating inflammatory cytokines (although, due to immunosuppression on cellular adhesion factors, the overall effect may still be anti inflammatory)".

And this is coming from Examine, who often tend to be overoptimistic when interpreting research IMO.

https://examine.com/supplements/fish-oil/

Strawng
06-14-2018, 04:51 PM
With so much mixed evidence on the effectiveness of fish oil, why exactly are EPA & DHA considered "essential" fatty acids if they're not essential per se. Are there not plenty of people around the world who don't eat fish regularly & fail to supplement? I'm sure this might belong in the stupid questions thread, but couldn't they be called "highly recommended fatty acids"?

AdamWW
06-14-2018, 06:46 PM
With so much mixed evidence on the effectiveness of fish oil, why exactly are EPA & DHA considered "essential" fatty acids if they're not essential per se. Are there not plenty of people around the world who don't eat fish regularly & fail to supplement? I'm sure this might belong in the stupid questions thread, but couldn't they be called "highly recommended fatty acids"?

EPA/DHA aren't essential but rather omega-3's are in general (you can synthesize it from ALA, which can be found in lots of plants).... I think most cultures with little to no fish intake get it mostly from greens. Spinach for example has a good amount by % of total calories... but you're right, many other cultures have a lower intake.

But then again, in such countries they probably intake far fewer n-6's, which definitely makes a higher n-3 intake more ideal.