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chamelious
07-15-2016, 01:46 AM
GF and I are having a "papa john's" pizza tonight. Had them before, they're quite tasty. Out of curiosity i checked out the nutritional values. Good lord! Medium pizza, half a garlic bread and some brownie, 3500 calories. 400g carbs, 1 meal.

....Looking forward to it. But its no wonder theres an issue with obesity when its so easy to eat an absurd amount of calories.

DBZ1
07-15-2016, 03:32 AM
Yes, I agree. Before getting into all these bodybuilding things and knowing a little about nutrition, I used to go out and eat at restaurants like Pizza Hut, Kentucky Fried Chicken, and the like. Sometimes I thought I was eating "not so much" but after knowing about calories and macros now I know all these types of food have a LOT of calories. I would, in almost a daily basis, eat my 3 meals at home, then eat something else from those restaurants like pizza, a McDonalds milkshake, a hamburger with french fries, etc. Add all of that up and it turns out to be a lot of saturated fat and carbs.

The problem is that the average person does not know how many calories is too much for them and they just go out and eat and replace for instance one of their home meals with junk food, and that's when they start gaining weight.

Znik
07-15-2016, 03:51 AM
At least the pizza, garlic bread, cheese sticks or whatever are somewhat filling and limits your ability to eat vast quantities of it.

Stuff like Cronut etc. are more the reason why people are fat, as you can easily eat several of those at a time and each serving:
http://www.womenshealthmag.com/sites/womenshealthmag.com/files/2014/10/06/screen_shot_2014-10-06_at_4.53.41_pm_0.png

The calorie density of some popular foods(treats/snacks) are just insane.

DBZ1
07-15-2016, 04:18 AM
I recall that my typical Pizza Hut order would consist of about 3 slices of pizza, 3 cheesesticks and a lot of coke. And that was when I mentally was trying to eat less to lose weight, no wonder why for a long time I stayed the same haha.

chamelious
07-15-2016, 04:48 AM
limits your ability to eat vast quantities of it.

Lol. If only that were the case ;)

Those cronuts look insane though.

jdrush
07-15-2016, 05:07 AM
Lol. If only that were the case ;)

Those cronuts look insane though.

Seriously.

BRB, an extra large pizza and trip to the froyo bar later.

Garlisk
07-15-2016, 05:24 AM
When I was gaining (aka pre-fitness fatty) I loved me some fast food style pizzas.

Partyrocking
07-15-2016, 05:50 AM
For me, drinking was a big part of my fat gain, not just the calories of the drinks themselves, but getting food with my friends at like 2AM because I was "so hungry" even though I had already had dinner.

A night for em was go out drinking, then get food and of course a boozy milkshake while the eating the food. Oops!

Easily added 2000-3000 cals to my total for the day. Do that 1-2 times a week for 3 years, no wonder I gained 60lbs.

Tyler2106
07-15-2016, 06:49 AM
Tonight I'm going to destroy some pizza. Hope I don't get too fat from it :)

TheEternalCut
07-15-2016, 07:03 AM
People get fat because they give their bodies too much energy over periods of time.

It is crazy to see some of these numbers, the interesting thing about pizza is I've had a Dominos where there has been very little cheese, and sometimes where the it's so overloaded with cheese the slice has fallen apart during the epic journey from pizza box to face box. Only +/- 20% if we're lucky...

rhadam
07-15-2016, 07:39 AM
GF and I are having a "papa john's" pizza tonight. Had them before, they're quite tasty. Out of curiosity i checked out the nutritional values. Good lord! Medium pizza, half a garlic bread and some brownie, 3500 calories. 400g carbs, 1 meal.

....Looking forward to it. But its no wonder theres an issue with obesity when its so easy to eat an absurd amount of calories.

No. People are the reason people are fat. Food simply exists.

I eat fast food, especially pizza, all the time. Yet i maintain around 12% body fat and compete occasionally.

jdrush
07-15-2016, 07:41 AM
No. People are the reason people are fat. Food simply exists.

I eat fast food, especially pizza, all the time. Yet i maintain around 12% body fat and compete occasionally.

My fork made me fat.

I've lost 110 pounds since I threw it away.

Garlisk
07-15-2016, 07:42 AM
While I agree on personal responsibility, you have to admit some foods are way easier to binge on than others...

Jammer02xd
07-15-2016, 07:47 AM
No. People are the reason people are fat. Food simply exists.

I eat fast food, especially pizza, all the time. Yet i maintain around 12% body fat and compete occasionally.

This. There is NO EDUCATION WHATSOEVER on nutrition in high schools where there absolutely should be. There's a reason that the majority of adults are obese and it's because people don't think about what they are eating. I eat fast food on a semi regular basis but you know what? I choose exactly what I want, track it and know the portions but most people don't know how to navigate the menus are fast food restaurants to know how to save calories. That's the problem, lack of education.

Tyler2106
07-15-2016, 07:49 AM
This. There is NO EDUCATION WHATSOEVER on nutrition in high schools where there absolutely should be. There's a reason that the majority of adults are obese and it's because people don't think about what they are eating. I eat fast food on a semi regular basis but you know what? I choose exactly what I want, track it and know the portions but most people don't know how to navigate the menus are fast food restaurants to know how to save calories. That's the problem, lack of education.

You think all the fat people out there eating out every meal really feel uneducated about what they're eating? They're fat because they don't care. People know soda, pizza, burgers, wings, beer etc etc are higher / empty calories yet still choose to eat them.

Garlisk
07-15-2016, 07:53 AM
Thank god we educate our kids on not smoking, so now none of them smoke.

Admittedly education would go a long way to reduce obesity, but it wouldn't eliminate it. Some of these foods are straight up unnatural/addictive. I'm not saying people shouldn't be responsible for themselves, but you can't just assume because somebody knows something is bad they won't do it.

At least with smoking, by the time you choose to smoke a cigarette, you are making a conscious choice. Most of us don't choose the first time we eat cake, pizza, soda, chips, etc.

Not looking to argue, just something to think about.

Oatmealman99
07-15-2016, 07:57 AM
You think all the fat people out there eating out every meal really feel uneducated about what they're eating? They're fat because they don't care. People know soda, pizza, burgers, wings, beer etc etc are higher / empty calories yet still choose to eat them.That's exactly why most people are fat. Most of my family is, I wish I could make them understand exercise isn't terrible.

Tyler201
07-15-2016, 08:00 AM
feelsbad, I eat a whole extra large pepperoni brooklyn style pizzas from dominoes along with cheese bread and im not even bulking :(
cant even imagine how much all of that is ROFL

rhadam
07-15-2016, 08:15 AM
This. There is NO EDUCATION WHATSOEVER on nutrition in high schools where there absolutely should be. There's a reason that the majority of adults are obese and it's because people don't think about what they are eating. I eat fast food on a semi regular basis but you know what? I choose exactly what I want, track it and know the portions but most people don't know how to navigate the menus are fast food restaurants to know how to save calories. That's the problem, lack of education.

That's not really what i said. I exercise, a lot. Yes i make smart choices like if i know i'm having pizza for dinner i won't eat a lot of calories during the day to give myself space. But at the end of the day YOU are responsible for YOUR choices. Blaming society or the institutions of learning is a cop-out. I've probably learned more from educating myself than i have in school when it comes to dietetics. But it took work to find out where to find proper information, work that a lot of people don't want to put in. Laziness is a large issue here.

juggernaut74ia
07-15-2016, 08:20 AM
And now I want pizza....

wlodarczykn
07-15-2016, 08:20 AM
its so easy to eat an absurd amount of calories.

If you have no knowledge on at least the basics of nutrition (which most ppl don't) it is extremely easy to pack away calories.

Xplicit001
07-15-2016, 09:22 AM
And now I want pizza....

Thats literally all I am getting out of this thread as well. Damnet.

Znik
07-15-2016, 09:31 AM
You think all the fat people out there eating out every meal really feel uneducated about what they're eating? They're fat because they don't care. People know soda, pizza, burgers, wings, beer etc etc are higher / empty calories yet still choose to eat them.

So true. Pretty much every single person in the modern society knows certain foods are calorie laden and "unhealthy" along with overeating making you fat and unhealthy.

Garlisk
07-15-2016, 09:32 AM
Then eat it, IIFYM?

Xplicit001
07-15-2016, 09:40 AM
Then eat it, IIFYM?

It doesnt fit my macros :)

Not today atleast.

Onlyspoons
07-15-2016, 10:57 AM
To be honest, the amount of food mentioned in the first post seems like an enormous amount to me. I'd be stuffed to the gills. To consistently eat that much food I'd have to train myself to completely ignore being uncomfortably food. And THAT is why people are fat. They eat way past when their body says stop. And it's not lack of education. People know they are eating junk and eating too much. It's just easier not to admit that.

EmperorRyker
07-15-2016, 11:48 AM
To be honest, the amount of food mentioned in the first post seems like an enormous amount to me. I'd be stuffed to the gills. To consistently eat that much food I'd have to train myself to completely ignore being uncomfortably food. And THAT is why people are fat. They eat way past when their body says stop. And it's not lack of education. People know they are eating junk and eating too much. It's just easier not to admit that.That's not true. Just because you think you'd be uncomfortably full, doesn't mean others are. A medium pizza, garlic bread and a brownie absolutely doesn't make everyone stuffed and that's just one meal.

Budjola
07-15-2016, 11:57 AM
one pizza or even two hell even three wont make you fat, what will make you fat is if your eating and training habits are bad and you do that quite often, one cheat meal like that every month, hell even once a week wont do chit except make you happy

blue9steel
07-15-2016, 12:19 PM
For me, I never ate particularly horribly, it's just that without tracking my natural inclination was to eat what turned out to be about a 100 calorie surplus. Do that for a few years and the pounds pile on quick.

jdrush
07-15-2016, 12:19 PM
That's not true. Just because you think you'd be uncomfortably full, doesn't mean others are. A medium pizza, garlic bread and a brownie absolutely doesn't make everyone stuffed and that's just one meal.

Team never full.

EmperorRyker
07-15-2016, 12:32 PM
For me, I never ate particularly horribly, it's just that without tracking my natural inclination was to eat what turned out to be about a 100 calorie surplus. Do that for a few years and the pounds pile on quick.Yeah, exactly. You don't have to gorge on food to get fat, and some people have to extremely mindful and educated to stay at a healthy weight. Ultimately, most of them indeed can indeed get or stay fit, but if you're swimming against a strong current, then dismissing it and saying you should just swim harder isn't really all that smart, not to mention it might not work. And that's what people here are doing, entirely dismissing the psychology behind the obesity problem. Telling people they need more willpower is never going to help, the issue needs to be addressed systematically and individually, just only individually won't solve the problem. Those that are fit also don't necessarily have more willpower than those that aren't, so it's just a bad argument that guilt trips people.

Partyrocking
07-15-2016, 12:50 PM
Team never full.

Me too.

Heisman2
07-15-2016, 06:04 PM
Yeah, exactly. You don't have to gorge on food to get fat, and some people have to extremely mindful and educated to stay at a healthy weight. Ultimately, most of them indeed can indeed get or stay fit, but if you're swimming against a strong current, then dismissing it and saying you should just swim harder isn't really all that smart, not to mention it might not work. And that's what people here are doing, entirely dismissing the psychology behind the obesity problem. Telling people they need more willpower is never going to help, the issue needs to be addressed systematically and individually, just only individually won't solve the problem. Those that are fit also don't necessarily have more willpower than those that aren't, so it's just a bad argument that guilt trips people.

This. Without question some obese individuals know exactly what they need to do to be healthier and simply do not care. However, there are many who try to exercise more and eat healthily and struggle to lose weight. I've talked to many people like this. People who are obese their whole lives are almost certainly at a disadvantage relative to people who are lean in childhood. I haven't read up on this in great detail, but here's an interesting read that sheds some light on this: http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2008/05/04/fat-cell-number-is-set-in-childhood-and-stays-constant-in-ad/ - the take home point is that the number of fat cells one has is set in childhood and obese children will have many more fat cells than lean children; if obese adults do lose weight they still maintain the increased number of fat cells relative to lean adults.

Also, try telling an obese person who is deconditioned, has osteoarthritis, and no gym knowledge to start working out hard and well without a trainer. Other than low-intensity cardio I don't see a reason to expect an obese person to do much more without coaching as they will experience many more aches and pains than leaner people just from the osteoarthritis aspect alone (yes, exercise helps osteoarthritis, but if someone starts training without coaching I worry they will stress their body/joints unnecessarily due to poor form when they already have a low margin of error; I still advise obese people to try to lift if able but I don't get my hopes up). So they largely have to rely on dieting (which granted they would have to do anyway), but these are the same people who likely have lower NEAT and greater baseline hunger than leaner adults. Can they track calories and make progress? Of course. Should you expect the average adult who tries to eat healthier to understand the importance of tracking calories without being taught this? I don't think so. Honestly, a lot of Americans cannot even read nutrition labels properly. We have questions on this board every week regarding how to measure calories in chicken breasts (before or after cooking), and this board I think self-selects for people with generally above-average IQ, not to mention the time/passion needed to look things up, find this forum, and take the time to post and try to learn. The average adult who isn't passionate about this will not only spend less time trying to learn but will not even find this forum in the first place to help sort out the facts from all of the myths.

Anyways, sorry for the lengthy post. The stigma against obesity irritates me to no end and working on obesity prevention is one of my biggest career goals so I feel fairly strongly about this.

markthrones
07-15-2016, 06:23 PM
pizza and hamburger always a no no.

EmperorRyker
07-15-2016, 06:43 PM
This. Without question some obese individuals know exactly what they need to do to be healthier and simply do not care. However, there are many who try to exercise more and eat healthily and struggle to lose weight. I've talked to many people like this. People who are obese their whole lives are almost certainly at a disadvantage relative to people who are lean in childhood. I haven't read up on this in great detail, but here's an interesting read that sheds some light on this: http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2008/05/04/fat-cell-number-is-set-in-childhood-and-stays-constant-in-ad/ - the take home point is that the number of fat cells one has is set in childhood and obese children will have many more fat cells than lean children; if obese adults do lose weight they still maintain the increased number of fat cells relative to lean adults.

Also, try telling an obese person who is deconditioned, has osteoarthritis, and no gym knowledge to start working out hard and well without a trainer. Other than low-intensity cardio I don't see a reason to expect an obese person to do much more without coaching as they will experience many more aches and pains than leaner people just from the osteoarthritis aspect alone (yes, exercise helps osteoarthritis, but if someone starts training without coaching I worry they will stress their body/joints unnecessarily due to poor form when they already have a low margin of error; I still advise obese people to try to lift if able but I don't get my hopes up). So they largely have to rely on dieting (which granted they would have to do anyway), but these are the same people who likely have lower NEAT and greater baseline hunger than leaner adults. Can they track calories and make progress? Of course. Should you expect the average adult who tries to eat healthier to understand the importance of tracking calories without being taught this? I don't think so. Honestly, a lot of Americans cannot even read nutrition labels properly. We have questions on this board every week regarding how to measure calories in chicken breasts (before or after cooking), and this board I think self-selects for people with generally above-average IQ, not to mention the time/passion needed to look things up, find this forum, and take the time to post and try to learn. The average adult who isn't passionate about this will not only spend less time trying to learn but will not even find this forum in the first place to help sort out the facts from all of the myths.

Anyways, sorry for the lengthy post. The stigma against obesity irritates me to no end and working on obesity prevention is one of my biggest career goals so I feel fairly strongly about this.Yeah, basically the argument of those ignorant of these issues is that they did it, therefore everyone else can, too. It's really not a question of whether it is theoretically possible, because the answer to that is always yes. Regardless of what is going against them, if they stuck to a low calorie diet and exercised, they'd lose and later maintain weight. But you can't just discard the psychological factors and say they're lazy. Like you said, many are, but many also aren't.

For example, here's a study that looks at how stress impacts post-prandial energy expenditure, and mentions that people with depression have an 58% increased risk of becoming obese:


Daily Stressors, Past Depression, and Metabolic Responses to High-Fat Meals: A Novel Path to Obesity

...

Conclusions

The cumulative 6-hour difference between one prior day stressor and no stressors translates into 104 kcal, a difference that could add almost 11 pounds/year. These findings illustrate how stress and depression alter metabolic responses to high-fat meals in ways that promote obesity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289126/#R1

Ultimately, because something is harder doesn't mean you should just quit, but you can just assign blame when some of these might work harder than you and still have worse results. I see with myself what a game-changer depression is. It's really easy to diet and exercise hard when you feel fine on a daily basis and have just normal episodes of feeling down here and there.

ErikTheElectric
07-15-2016, 09:08 PM
People are "fat" simply because they refuse to do more MOVEMENT and of course.. excuses.

Obstacles
07-15-2016, 10:44 PM
i always kind of had a hunch that places like pizza hut and whatnot would be calorie dense, what i didn't expect is how eating out at sit-down/family type restaurants adds up. my family and i used to eat out at least once a week (years ago) and i'd always go for appetizer + dinner + dessert. some dinners are easily over 1000kcal, all together probably over 3500, and that's after having a full breakfast and food throughout the day.

Thebunz
07-15-2016, 11:02 PM
This and sugar. I can tear up 2 bags of candy and a soda and still not be anywhere near full. That's roughly 250g carbs (1000 cals)! But it's the cheese my man. Fats can really up the calories quick.

ErikTheElectric
07-15-2016, 11:07 PM
This and sugar. I can tear up 2 bags of candy and a soda and still not be anywhere near full. That's roughly 250g carbs (1000 cals)! But it's the cheese my man. Fats can really up the calories quick.You also forgot the overabundance of animal protein. :)

kahri
07-16-2016, 03:32 AM
http://doylez.com/img/oreo-shake-nutrition-information.png

aquamarine84
07-16-2016, 04:16 AM
Team never full.

I think my problem for years - aside from my soda habit and eating out of boredom - was that I did eat to fullness. There is a difference between fullness and satisfaction though. Here I am, I work in fast food and yet am prepping for a contest now. And I eat leftover Taco Bell breakfast almost every day.

What cracks me up are the people who come in and ask what's the healthiest. Sometimes it's s struggle not to get on a soapbox.

shesprints
07-16-2016, 05:23 AM
I really do think this is an American thing--or at least an American fast-food restaurant thing, which is sadly becoming more of a universal thing. In Italy a whole pizza is maybe 800 calories, the way it's served in a restaurant for a single person.

And in America, I would virtually never eat more than one piece of a pizza 'pie' for a meal. I just don't see that as a portion. It's not that I would be full--pizza is very calorie dense and easy to consume a lot of--it's that I would feel totally gross. I don't even feel like I've eaten a meal without having a serving of nice watery/fibrous vegetables--that's how I was raised. I'm lucky that I wasn't raised with 'mainstream American' food. My mom always cooked us balanced meals with lots of vegetables and fruit, and I honestly think eating whole foods is important for learning what true satiety feels like. On processed food alone (like if I eat just plain fast-food pizza or something, without at least a salad on the side or some cooked vegetables or something) it's really tough to figure out when I'm full. It just totally confuses my satiety signals.

I guess I feel like of course it's easy to overeat wholly processed food? It's just not satisfying. It's engineered to be that way. It's not something that should be the foundation of a diet, it's something we should have a little bit of. And it is kind of sad and shocking to me that in America we consider this stuff real 'meals.' It's just NOT.

BuildKing
07-16-2016, 05:26 AM
People are "fat" simply because they refuse to do more MOVEMENT and of course.. excuses.

Exercise often makes people more hungry leading to even more overfeeding, they eat more than they burn during the exercise after.

This is not an argument that exercise is bad, im simply saying that an average joe without much knowledge will most likely eat more than burn after doing an aerobic exercise, specialy with the average joe's diet which is high in foods with no satiety and insulin crashes.

shesprints
07-16-2016, 05:31 AM
Exercise often makes people more hungry leading to even more overfeeding, they eat more than they burn during the exercise after.

This is not an argument that exercise is bad, im simply saying that an average joe without much knowledge will most likely eat more than burn after doing an aerobic exercise, specialy with the average joe's diet which is high in foods with no satiety and insulin crashes.

Agreed. Erik, I think you are a little biased in favor of VERY EXTREME aerobic exercise--which, by the way, isn't even possible for those who are obese and out of shape. It's a vicious cycle (ha, see what I did there? because cycling). If you're fat and unfit, you simply cannot burn many calories through exercise!

And relying on exercise too much is dangerous... what if you get injured?

--which is likely if you exercise excessively.

Znik
07-16-2016, 06:17 AM
Exercise often makes people more hungry leading to even more overfeeding, they eat more than they burn during the exercise after.

This is not an argument that exercise is bad, im simply saying that an average joe without much knowledge will most likely eat more than burn after doing an aerobic exercise, specialy with the average joe's diet which is high in foods with no satiety and insulin crashes.

Actually it's the opposite, generally speaking for the average Joe, exercise does not impact energy intake it tends to remain fairly steady thus addition of exercise tends to cause an overall deficit without any change in dietary intake.

For instance:

Better understanding is needed regarding the effects of exercise alone, without any imposed dietary regimens, as a single tool for body-weight regulation. Thus, we evaluated the effects of an 8-week increase in activity energy expenditure (AEE) on ad libitum energy intake (EI), body mass and composition in healthy participants with baseline physical activity levels (PAL) in line with international recommendations. Forty-six male adults (BMI = 197-293 kg/m(2)) participated in an intervention group, and ten (BMI = 210-284 kg/m(2)) in a control group. Anthropometric measures, cardiorespiratory fitness, EI, AEE and exercise intensity were recorded at baseline and during the 1st, 5th and 8th intervention weeks, and movement was recorded throughout. Body composition was measured at the beginning and at the end of the study, and resting energy expenditure was measured after the study. The intervention group increased PAL from 174 (se 003) to 193 (se 003) (P < 00001) and cardiorespiratory fitness from 414 (se 09) to 457 (se 11) ml O2/kg per min (P = 0001) while decreasing body mass (-136 (se 02) kg; P = 0001) through adipose tissue mass loss (ATM) (-161 (se 02) kg; P = 00001) compared with baseline. The control group did not show any significant changes in activity, body mass or ATM. EI was unchanged in both groups. The results indicate that in normal-weight and overweight men, increasing PAL from 17 to 19 while keeping EI ad libitum over an 8-week period produces a prolonged negative energy balance. Replication using a longer period (and/or more intense increase in PAL) is needed to investigate if and at what body composition the increase in AEE is met by an equivalent increase in EI.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27066256?dopt=Abstract

There are a couple of more that show the same thing, exercise does not generally trigger a refeed response.
At some point it is highly likely that the body compensates, either by metabolic adaptions,increased hunger or loss of mass thus negating the exercise induced deficit, but initially (for a few months at least) it does not.

aquamarine84
07-16-2016, 06:59 AM
There are a couple of more that show the same thing, exercise does not generally trigger a refeed response.


It's more psychological. Someone exercises/burns calories through NEAT and thinks they've earned more calories than they really burned.

Partyrocking
07-16-2016, 08:03 AM
It's more psychological. Someone exercises/burns calories through NEAT and thinks they've earned more calories than they really burned.

I have one friend who thinks that every day she walks at least 10,000 steps she can eat an extra 1,000 calories. She also wonders why she keeps gaining weight.

Znik
07-16-2016, 08:07 AM
It's more psychological. Someone exercises/burns calories through NEAT and thinks they've earned more calories than they really burned.

That is true, but that's mostly because of personal reward thinking, they have been good so they need a reward, which also works for everything you achieve in life not just exercise.

Point was that exercise in itself does not trigger a refeed response to cover calorie expenditure. So if someone eats more after exercise it's a psychological issue because they feel the need to reward themselves.

VinBin
07-16-2016, 08:46 AM
Also, try telling an obese person who is deconditioned, has osteoarthritis, and no gym knowledge to start working out hard and well without a trainer. Other than low-intensity cardio I don't see a reason to expect an obese person to do much more without coaching as they will experience many more aches and pains than leaner people just from the osteoarthritis aspect alone (yes, exercise helps osteoarthritis, but if someone starts training without coaching I worry they will stress their body/joints unnecessarily due to poor form when they already have a low margin of error; I still advise obese people to try to lift if able but I don't get my hopes up). So they largely have to rely on dieting (which granted they would have to do anyway), but these are the same people who likely have lower NEAT and greater baseline hunger than leaner adults. Can they track calories and make progress? Of course. Should you expect the average adult who tries to eat healthier to understand the importance of tracking calories without being taught this? I don't think so. Honestly, a lot of Americans cannot even read nutrition labels properly. We have questions on this board every week regarding how to measure calories in chicken breasts (before or after cooking), and this board I think self-selects for people with generally above-average IQ, not to mention the time/passion needed to look things up, find this forum, and take the time to post and try to learn. The average adult who isn't passionate about this will not only spend less time trying to learn but will not even find this forum in the first place to help sort out the facts from all of the myths.

Anyways, sorry for the lengthy post. The stigma against obesity irritates me to no end and working on obesity prevention is one of my biggest career goals so I feel fairly strongly about this.

That's why people have mentioned here regarding the importance of (primary) prevention in addressing this issue. Of course if you are already morbidly obese, its foolish to tell them to just "shape up, exercise and eat less." These people don't have any idea of basic nutrition or energy balance. While genetics will likely play a role in behaviors that make weight gain more likely, metabolism, etc the culprit is still intake of more calories than expenditure and that's the education point that needs to be driven home starting at a young age. The difficulty in doing this is that our society hates to place individuals as responsible for their actions and blame anything/everything else (society, evil corporations, sugar, meat, HFCS, etc). And there are always those that are more than happy to take advantage of the ignorant.

It sounds like you are in primary care, and you likely deal with a lot of smokers who will likely never quit until severe COPD/emphysema or limitations in life (and how many do you know that are on oxygen and still continue to smoke). It's the same parallel, here, once you have a morbidly obese adult who has lifelong habits, changes in habits are nearly impossibly.

EmperorRyker
07-16-2016, 11:43 AM
I really do think this is an American thing--or at least an American fast-food restaurant thing, which is sadly becoming more of a universal thing. In Italy a whole pizza is maybe 800 calories, the way it's served in a restaurant for a single person.

And in America, I would virtually never eat more than one piece of a pizza 'pie' for a meal. I just don't see that as a portion. It's not that I would be full--pizza is very calorie dense and easy to consume a lot of--it's that I would feel totally gross. I don't even feel like I've eaten a meal without having a serving of nice watery/fibrous vegetables--that's how I was raised. I'm lucky that I wasn't raised with 'mainstream American' food. My mom always cooked us balanced meals with lots of vegetables and fruit, and I honestly think eating whole foods is important for learning what true satiety feels like. On processed food alone (like if I eat just plain fast-food pizza or something, without at least a salad on the side or some cooked vegetables or something) it's really tough to figure out when I'm full. It just totally confuses my satiety signals.

I guess I feel like of course it's easy to overeat wholly processed food? It's just not satisfying. It's engineered to be that way. It's not something that should be the foundation of a diet, it's something we should have a little bit of. And it is kind of sad and shocking to me that in America we consider this stuff real 'meals.' It's just NOT.I agree with this, and that's why going by your hunger signals isn't a foolproof way of staying in the shape you want. It's also why I take issue with the standard "eat what you enjoy" advice given out, because it assumes that what you enjoy at some moment in time is what you'll always enjoy and what's ingrained with you. Yet you can change that, and from both the physical and mental health side of it, it might be healthier to change those preferences and have an easier time reaching whatever physique goals you have.


Agreed. Erik, I think you are a little biased in favor of VERY EXTREME aerobic exercise--which, by the way, isn't even possible for those who are obese and out of shape. It's a vicious cycle (ha, see what I did there? because cycling). If you're fat and unfit, you simply cannot burn many calories through exercise!

And relying on exercise too much is dangerous... what if you get injured?

--which is likely if you exercise excessively.I agree with this, too. There's a bit of dissonance between his advice and what he's actually doing, because he usually says the same thing as you do. I mean, it's good advice and I think you should make exercise part of your daily routine. It's just that pushing yourself to do too much can backfire and lead to disorders that will have the opposite effect of what you want. What he said here is a tautology anyway, though.


Actually it's the opposite, generally speaking for the average Joe, exercise does not impact energy intake it tends to remain fairly steady thus addition of exercise tends to cause an overall deficit without any change in dietary intake.I wanted to disagree with you, but you're right, other studies also show that this is the case in general. But since individual variability can be high, I wonder whether it's those that are obese or have trouble maintaining weight that react with an increased ad libitum intake when they add exercise. If that's the case, then extra exercise wouldn't have the desired effect here and it would mostly work in those that are already more likely to be leaner.

BuildKing
07-16-2016, 04:25 PM
That is true, but that's mostly because of personal reward thinking, they have been good so they need a reward, which also works for everything you achieve in life not just exercise.

Point was that exercise in itself does not trigger a refeed response to cover calorie expenditure. So if someone eats more after exercise it's a psychological issue because they feel the need to reward themselves.

But the problem is that 99% of people have that psychological problem.

Heisman2
07-16-2016, 04:36 PM
That's why people have mentioned here regarding the importance of (primary) prevention in addressing this issue. Of course if you are already morbidly obese, its foolish to tell them to just "shape up, exercise and eat less." These people don't have any idea of basic nutrition or energy balance. While genetics will likely play a role in behaviors that make weight gain more likely, metabolism, etc the culprit is still intake of more calories than expenditure and that's the education point that needs to be driven home starting at a young age. The difficulty in doing this is that our society hates to place individuals as responsible for their actions and blame anything/everything else (society, evil corporations, sugar, meat, HFCS, etc). And there are always those that are more than happy to take advantage of the ignorant.

It sounds like you are in primary care, and you likely deal with a lot of smokers who will likely never quit until severe COPD/emphysema or limitations in life (and how many do you know that are on oxygen and still continue to smoke). It's the same parallel, here, once you have a morbidly obese adult who has lifelong habits, changes in habits are nearly impossibly.

I will ultimately be in primary care (currently in residency training). One problem is that many obese individuals are obese (or on their way) in childhood. You can't blame the kids (well, not reasonably IMO). Here's a paper that illustrates this with numbers: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1309753#t=article. As I posted above, during childhood adipocytes will multiple while in adulthood with weight gain or loss you typically keep the same amount. So just from that aspect the overweight children are at a disadvantage, not including any genetic or epigenetic impacts that led them to put on the weight in the first place.

I agree we need more education. I plan to work on that, actually. We also need more viable healthy food options for low-income families and safe spaces for children to exercise in otherwise dangerous areas. At least one city has started a program where volunteers stay after school to have an open gym that children can stay and play in. I feel this is a great way to work on the exercise aspect. Pokemon Go seems to be doing good things (when it doesn't lead to people walking off a cliff or equivalent). Exergaming in general has yet to show great benefit but I think there is a lot of potential there as games develop over time. I don't have a large enough economics/sociology/policy background to try to propose any solutions to the difficulty in purchasing healthy food.

I've had multiple patients tell me point blank they would rather die than give up smoking. Smoking is very addictive; I have never actually looked into whether there are addictive aspects of the obese with food. I know quite a few obese people who are able to eat less and change what they eat and don't see the results they want, but there certainly are some who have a hard time changing their eating habits in a meaningful way. It's a potentially interesting parallel.

EmperorRyker
07-16-2016, 04:59 PM
I've had multiple patients tell me point blank they would rather die than give up smoking. Smoking is very addictive; I have never actually looked into whether there are addictive aspects of the obese with food. I know quite a few obese people who are able to eat less and change what they eat and don't see the results they want, but there certainly are some who have a hard time changing their eating habits in a meaningful way. It's a potentially interesting parallel.My guess is that in general the obese don't experience anything so strong. But with those that got or stay there through binging, it could be the case. I know that personally when urges arise I feel I'd rather die than not binge, as well, and that's not an exaggeration. So yeah, you can say it's still a choice and it is, but it's a choice between something that to you is worse than death in that moment. That's why I don't like assigning blame to anyone, because you only see the choice itself and not how hard it was to make or resist it. I don't know how prevalent BED and bulimia are with the obese, though.

snarfbot
07-16-2016, 05:11 PM
7590 mg of sodium! that's like a whole salt shaker full of salt.

Melis689
07-16-2016, 05:28 PM
You think all the fat people out there eating out every meal really feel uneducated about what they're eating? They're fat because they don't care. People know soda, pizza, burgers, wings, beer etc etc are higher / empty calories yet still choose to eat them.

This. People always say "I need to cut out junk food, lose weight" etc.. It's the doing it part that usually doesn't happen. Some people are ok with it and that's fine, even I used to not really care about what I ate. But once you get in to the habit of cleaner eating and realising the amount of cleaner foods out there it becomes easier.

Znik
07-17-2016, 02:35 AM
I wanted to disagree with you, but you're right, other studies also show that this is the case in general. But since individual variability can be high, I wonder whether it's those that are obese or have trouble maintaining weight that react with an increased ad libitum intake when they add exercise. If that's the case, then extra exercise wouldn't have the desired effect here and it would mostly work in those that are already more likely to be leaner.

It's more likely to work for those who are fat, the fatter you are the slower you get metabolic adaptions/leptin drops that is going to promote increased hunger,lower NEAT etc.
In my experience, fat people who start to exercise tend to lose weight, lean people who start to exercise tend to maintain and not lose any fat unless they start controlling calories/intake.



But the problem is that 99% of people have that psychological problem.

If the number was that high the studies wouldn't show a overall energy deficit on average.

The reward psychological aspect also works for when they have lost 2lbs, gotten a promotion, had a good day at work, birthdays, family/friend gatherings, or achieved anything in life. If you are going to think along those lines then fat people may just as well give up and keep on eating.

Fact is, daily or regular exercise is crucial in terms of losing weight and maintaining said weight loss. Because of it's "free" calorie burn, overall appetite suppression, anti-catabolic properties, anti-metabolic adaption properties, overall general health aspect etc. etc. Most of the successful weight loss and it's maintenance studies/stories comes from those with regular exercise.

If exercise made you fat by overeating then it wouldn't be such an important aspect in a successful weight loss journey.

Heisman2
07-17-2016, 02:58 AM
Znik, would you be willing to post other studies you've read on this topic if you know them off hand? EmperorRyker and myself looked at one study fairly recently (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)01577-8) looking essentially at how NEAT varies with different baseline activity levels, but a big difference between that and the appetite one you just posted is that in the appetite one the participants at baseline were living a relatively active lifestyle (compared to a sedentary population) and added on a decent amount of exercise in the intervention group, whereas in the Cell paper people were living their normal lifestyles whatever they may be. I won't have time for awhile but I'd like to go through various studies related to this topic looking at different BMIs and different activity levels. There may not be much out there but it would be cool if we could use these data to develop different guidelines based on BMI and baseline activity.

Mik3yp
07-17-2016, 03:56 AM
People are fat because they're pretty much weak minded individuals. I was at work watching some mini cinnamon buns on camera at bakery, zoomed in on that **** and they looked so incredibly hnnnggg (I work loss prevention, see lots of booty and delicious goods). I was so tempted to rush out of my office and purchase those goodies. 5 months into this cut, almost done. I'm gonna make it.

freethetree
07-17-2016, 07:16 AM
I think that besides the psychological issues and weaknesses, there's also a big gap in knowledge. Kind of like how not everyone is literate or knowledgeable (e.g. financially, mechanically, etc). With more knowledge and awareness, more people can actually wake up to the fact that what they're eating is horrible to their bodies and health?

VinBin
07-17-2016, 07:35 AM
I've had multiple patients tell me point blank they would rather die than give up smoking. Smoking is very addictive; I have never actually looked into whether there are addictive aspects of the obese with food. I know quite a few obese people who are able to eat less and change what they eat and don't see the results they want, but there certainly are some who have a hard time changing their eating habits in a meaningful way. It's a potentially interesting parallel.

For the extremely obese, food is essentially a psychological coping measure. They eat when they are bored, sad, tired, depressed, and so on. This can easily lead to a vicious cycle that leads to increased fat gain and more depression leading to increased eating, etc. This is one of the main reason that patient who are being considered for bariatric surgery generally undergo pretty intense psychological testing. No doubt there are underlying hormonal and deranged food/appetite signaling issues in play as well from the excess adiposity.

Znik
07-17-2016, 07:36 AM
There may not be much out there but it would be cool if we could use these data to develop different guidelines based on BMI and baseline activity.

There is not much out there in direct relationship with NEAT/activity/total TDEE. But when you look at things like Caffeine supps etc. you notice that NEAT is an extremely adaptive function, which is why caffeine (or fat burners) don't work, there is an acute increase in EE but once the caffeine wears of there is an acute decrease in EE (mostly through NEAT) to compensate for the previous increase thus the body achieves homeostasis.

In the average Joe, to my knowledge TDEE when compensated for mass/body composition is fairly identical unless they have an highly active job or pro-athlete levels of training. Acute bursts in EE tends to cause an acute drop in EE afterwards. Introduction of exercise for some reason seems to bypass it, it may just be because of the long term increased REE rather than the acute increase of EE (pure speculation, but people who exercise do tend to have a higher REE).

In terms of TDEE, skeletal muscle efficiency tends to jump in fairly quickly when activity/weight is changed(part of the homeostasis function), if body weight drops too much then efficiency is increased and activity requires less energy, if weight increases then efficiency decreases and activity requires more energy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12609816
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/298/1/R79


The majority of my research is on weight loss, so I don't have much in terms of activity/neat relationship, more calorie restriction/neat relationship.

You may find some of these interesting, but for the most part they are related to weight loss/calorie restriction, ill dig through my bookmarks when I get the time to see if I got any in direct relationship with activity (pretty sure I have some).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279077/
http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/26/4/729.full
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0004377#pone-0004377-g004 - a good one in terms of REE
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/297/3/R793
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/57/2/127.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25003773
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26087884
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3943438/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3075130/
http://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(13)00528-X/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10643690

Znik
07-17-2016, 07:55 AM
Some more in terms of exercise and energy intake, ill even be a good sport and post both sides of the argument.

In favor of appetite suppression and lower energy intake/balance :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24454704
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/201/1/151.long
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/203/3/357.long
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14574343/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20674640/



RESULTS:

No effect of physical activity, exercise or exercise training on energy intake was shown in 59% of cross-sectional studies (n = 17), 69% of acute (n = 40), 50% of short-term (n = 10), 92% of non-randomized (n = 12) and 75% of randomized trials (n = 24). Ninety-four percent of acute, 57% of short-term, 100% of non-randomized and 74% of randomized trials found no effect of exercise on macronutrient intake. Forty-six percent of cross-sectional trials found lower fat intake with increased physical activity.
LIMITATIONS:

The literature is limited by the lack of adequately powered trials of sufficient duration, which have prescribed and measured exercise energy expenditure, or employed adequate assessment methods for energy and macronutrient intake.
CONCLUSIONS:

We found no consistent evidence that increased physical activity or exercise effects energy or macronutrient intake.

In favor of eating more afterwards:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19171314/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12631503/


. However, moderational analyses revealed that change in negative mood interacted with condition to predict energy intake, such that participants who reported increased negative mood during exercise consumed more calories in the Active compared to the Sedentary condition. That a short bout of exercise resulted in mood deterioration and increased energy intake for some overweight, sedentary individuals is concerning.

^ Which is relative to the psychological aspect, if you hate doing exercise then you are probably likely to compensate by comfort eating afterwards.


For Heismann: Some more studies relative to RMR and total TDEE and activity/exercise:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-1716.1991.tb09117.x/abstract
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/5/793.short
http://jap.physiology.org/content/72/1/23.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9665098

Heisman2
07-17-2016, 01:44 PM
Znik, awesome. I'll go through these and use them to search for others eventually. I have a week off at the beginning of August and will be traveling some but may be able to take a day to go through all of these then.

Heisman2
08-05-2016, 05:57 PM
Znik, I got through all of them and have since gone through some more. Thanks again so much. If you haven't seen this, here's a nice review published a few months ago with a bunch of other interesting references: http://www.mdpi.com/2411-5142/1/2/230/htm

whersmahprotein
08-06-2016, 12:08 AM
But still you are getting 119g of protein, good for bulk though.