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tenthirty
05-05-2016, 02:27 AM
Hi All,

Up till around 8 weeks ago or so, I was gaining weight steadily, about 1.5kg a month I reckon, from eating roughly 4 meals a day, two of which were regular (pasta with chicken).
Now I got stuck and I'm floating around 85kg, but I really am sick of eating and can barely force myself to eat my meals (currently either rice and chicken or potatoes and chicken).

I want to start gaining weight again, and I know that's done with a calorie surplus but I wont be able to add another meal of the same structure (carb base with a bit of meat).
Can I use a fat based food to make up for this? I'm thinking something like a few added peanut butter sandwiches every day.

Will fat work just like carbs or will I end up storing it all as bodyfat and none as blood glucose/glycogen or whatever it is that carbs convert into?

Thanks in advance.

nakkiz
05-05-2016, 02:35 AM
Litterally anything will work. It will make no difference if they're fat or carbs in regard to fat gain. In general, when you gain weight you gain fat, too. To minimize the fat gain you should eat a smaller surplus.

Why are you eating low fat meals? Carbs are non essential. Dont force feed yourself. Eat food you enjoy.

muruku
05-05-2016, 03:37 AM
In a caloric surplus, dietary fat is preferentially stored as fat IIRC.

muruku
05-05-2016, 03:39 AM
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/how-we-get-fat.html/


Letís work through this backwards. When you eat dietary fat, itís primary fate is storage as its intake has very little impact on fat oxidation (and donít ask me a bunch of questions about ďBut people say you have to eat fat to burn fat?Ē in the comments. That idea is fundamentally wrong but would take an entire article to address). It also doesnít impact greatly on the oxidation of the protein or carbohydrates.

Carbohydrates are rarely converted to fat (a process called de novo lipogenesis) under normal dietary conditions. There are exceptions when this occurs. One is with massive chronic overfeeding of carbs. Iím talking 700-900 grams of carbs per day for multiple days. Under those conditions, carbs max out glycogen stores, are in excess of total daily energy requirements and you see the conversion of carbohydrate to fat for storage. But this is not a normal dietary situation for most people.

A few very stupid studies have shown that glucose INFUSION at levels of 1.5 total daily energy expenditure can cause DNL to occur but this is equally non-physiological. There is also some evidence that DNL may be increased in individuals with hyperinsulinemia (often secondary to obesity). Thereís one final exception that Iíll use to finish this piece.

But when you eat more carbs, you burn more carbs and burn less fat. And thatís why even if carbs arenít directly converted to fat and stored as such, excess carbs can STILL MAKE YOU FAT. Basically, by inhibiting fat oxidation, excess carbs cause you to store all the fat youíre eating without burning any of it off. Did you get that? Let me repeat it again.

Carbs donít make you fat via direct conversion and storage to fat; but excess carbs can still make you fat by blunting out the normal daily fat oxidation so that all of the fat youíre eating is stored. Which is why a 500 cal surplus of fat and a 500 cal surplus of carbs can both make you fat; they just do it for different reasons through different mechanisms. The 500 calories of excess fat is simply stored; the excess 500 calories of carbs ensure that all the fat youíre eating is stored because carb oxidation goes up and fat oxidation goes down. Got it? If not, re-read this paragraph until it sinks in.

Oh yeah, the same holds for protein. Protein isnít going to be converted to and stored as fat. But eat excess protein and the body will burn more protein for energy (and less carbs and fat). Which means that the other nutrients have to get stored. Which means that excess protein can still make you fat, just not by direct conversion. Rather, it does it by ensuring that the fat youíre eating gets stored.

Of course protein also has the highest thermic effect, more of the incoming calories are burned off. So excess protein tends to have the least odds of making you fat under any conditions; but excess protein can make you fat. Just not by direct conversion to fat; rather itís indirectly by decreasing the oxidation of other nutrients.

Ok, is the above clear enough? Because I canít really explain it any simpler but will try one last time using bullet points and an example. Letís assume someone is eating at exactly maintenance calories. Neither gaining nor losing fat. Hereís what happens with excess calories. Assume that all three conditions represent identical increases in caloric intake, just from each of the different macros. Hereís what happens mechanistically and why all three still make you fat:

Excess dietary fat is directly stored as fat
Excess dietary carbs increases carb oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat
Excess dietary protein increases protein oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat

Got it? All three situations make you fat, just through different mechanisms. Fat is directly stored and carbs and protein cause you to store the fat youíre eating by decreasing fat oxidation.

ALX333
05-05-2016, 03:46 AM
Yeah, dietary fat is targeted for storage in fat cells like muruku said.

Some people dont notice any difference between high fat and high carbs when bulking. Some people gain more fat if they swap carbs for fats. Either way the primary factor determining fat gains is the size of the surplus.

jdrush
05-05-2016, 04:01 AM
I prefer carbs, I notice more energy in the gym.

Or you could mix fats and carbs.... tastier.

Fried Mozzarella sticks anyone?

Mrpb
05-05-2016, 05:58 AM
At 85 kg, chances are you're over 15% body fat. The fatter you get the harder it will become to bulk and the poorer your bulking results will be.

If you're over 15% consider cutting or recomping at maintenance.

As to your question, overfeeding on saturated fats has been shown to increase fat mass. Overfeeding on unsaturated fats has been shown to increase lean mass.

Should people bulk on higher carbs and/or higher fat? Lyle answers that question here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/macronutrient-intake-for-mass-gains-qa.html/

Basically if you have good insulin sensitivity you'll likely do better on high carbs/lower fat, if not: the opposite.

tenthirty
05-06-2016, 03:14 AM
Thanks for the replies guys.

So what I've gathered is that from excess carbs, only a little will go into fat and the rest into glycogen.
But with fat, excess calories will go directly into fat storage and barely anything into direct useable energy.

The problem still remains, I don't want to add another carb heavy meal but I want to add calories.

If I eat a fat based meal/snack directly after my workout when blood sugar levels are low, can this force more of the fat to go into glycogen and stuff instead of stored fat?
Or does timing not matter at all?

Mrpb
05-06-2016, 03:39 AM
^ you didn't understand it correctly. Overfeeding on carbs isn't superior to overfeeding on fat. Read my post again, read the full link.

Nutrient timing for fat and carbs is largely irrelevant. Not for protein.

k260jl
05-06-2016, 07:09 AM
^ you didn't understand it correctly. Overfeeding on carbs isn't superior to overfeeding on fat. Read my post again, read the full link.

Nutrient timing for fat and carbs is largely irrelevant. Not for protein.

website is blocked for me at work. What is the timing for protein?

Mrpb
05-06-2016, 07:25 AM
website is blocked for me at work. What is the timing for protein?

Ideally 4 or 5 meals spread evenly over the day with ~0.4 gram protein per kg or more.

If you prefer 3 meals that will work too.

ALX333
05-06-2016, 08:13 AM
Ideally 4 or 5 meals spread evenly over the day with ~0.4 gram protein per kg or more.

If you prefer 3 meals that will work too.

Ive always wondered: do the numbers for protein refer to total protein or is it just complete proteins like whey, eggs, etc?

Pungiish
05-06-2016, 08:18 AM
^ you didn't understand it correctly. Overfeeding on carbs isn't superior to overfeeding on fat. Read my post again, read the full link.

Nutrient timing for fat and carbs is largely irrelevant. Not for protein.

I got negged for this. They were saying overfeeding on carbs is superior to overfeeding on fats because you will easier gain fat on a higher fat diet opposed to a higher carb diet apparently

Gxp23
05-06-2016, 08:24 AM
I got negged for this. They were saying overfeeding on carbs is superior to overfeeding on fats because you will easier gain fat on a higher fat diet opposed to a higher carb diet apparently

You got negged for this


Are you sure?;) are you completely sure?;)

On recharge with poverty negs

genuinely didnt care about the topic. Just that you were being an ass instead of being helpful.

Pungiish
05-06-2016, 08:45 AM
You got negged for this



genuinely didnt care about the topic. Just that you were being an ass instead of being helpful.

Ok lol, why did u write on the neg that i should get some info about the topic then? Because i know the right info

Gxp23
05-06-2016, 08:49 AM
Ok lol, why did u write on the neg that i should get some info about the topic then? Because i know the right info
Didnt feel like calling you an ass in your user cp plus that poster wasnt entirely wrong in what he/she was saying either.

And for the record, I prefer a high fat diet.

Pungiish
05-06-2016, 08:54 AM
Didnt feel like calling you an ass in your user cp plus that poster wasnt entirely wrong in what he/she was saying either.

Yeah i was an ass, but you could have told me that not just neg me. I've seen him give lots of terrible advice and i was just salty.

The TEF is too unreliable for counting it

Gxp23
05-06-2016, 09:03 AM
Yeah i was an ass, but you could have told me that not just neg me. I've seen him give lots of terrible advice and i was just salty.

The TEF is too unreliable for counting it
I could have, but I didnt. I am not having a great day either.

Not unless you eat as much fat as me!

No but srsly, im not here to debate the number of variables to conclude X because I finish shortly and have better places to be.

Mrpb
05-06-2016, 09:08 AM
I got negged for this. They were saying overfeeding on carbs is superior to overfeeding on fats because you will easier gain fat on a higher fat diet opposed to a higher carb diet apparently

Yes that's what people mistakenly assume and will continue to do so.

That is not what Lyle said though. If you read the article Macro intake for mass gains you'll get a better understanding.

Pungiish
05-06-2016, 09:13 AM
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/insulin-sensitivity-and-fat-loss.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/macronutrient-intake-for-mass-gains-qa.html/
Studies right here

Mrpb
05-06-2016, 09:13 AM
Ive always wondered: do the numbers for protein refer to total protein or is it just complete proteins like whey, eggs, etc?

If you're striving for the best results go for the "complete" protein sources, as you call them.

Pungiish
05-06-2016, 09:17 AM
I could have, but I didnt. I am not having a great day either.

Not unless you eat as much fat as me!

No but srsly, im not here to debate the number of variables to conclude X because I finish shortly and have better places to be.

"Now they are even more poverty. Do your research before you neg. More fats= easily more stored body fat."

Your quote man. You said that eating a surplus of fat causes higher fat gain than eating the same surplus in carbs???

Make up your mind

Mrpb
05-06-2016, 09:18 AM
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/insulin-sensitivity-and-fat-loss.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/macronutrient-intake-for-mass-gains-qa.html/
Studies right here

Did you read in the second article that he says some people do better on higher fat intakes? Important part.

Gxp23
05-06-2016, 09:19 AM
"Now they are even more poverty. Do your research before you neg. More fats= easily more stored body fat."

Your quote man. You said that eating a surplus of fat causes higher fat gain than eating the same surplus in carbs???

Make up your mind

I never said higher, I said easily more stored.

Mrpbs post #7 sums it up quite well for me, if I bulk over 15% which I did last time, fat gains were much more apparent in the last few months, high sat fats and all.

Mrpb
05-06-2016, 09:23 AM
That's the part that people misunderstand. Fat is more easily stored as body fat. This doesn't mean that a surplus of fat leads to more fat gains. If you eat a too large surplus of carbs your dietary fat will be stored as body fat. So you'll still get fat.

Pungiish
05-06-2016, 09:27 AM
Did you read in the second article that he says some people do better on higher fat intakes? Important part.

Yeah, it depends on insulin sensitivity/insensitivity right?

Mrpb
05-06-2016, 09:51 AM
Yeah, it depends on insulin sensitivity/insensitivity right?

It may. But we don't know this for sure.

There aren't many useful overfeeding studies where people used a small surplus comparing different macros.

Wilson did a high fat vs. high carb diet with resistance training. The high fat group lost more fat than the high carb group even though they were in surplus. The problem with this study is that there are concerns about the quality.

This is an interesting study too: people were overfed with muffins enriched with saturated fats or polyunsaturated fats. The group on PUFA gained more lean mass and less body fat than the group on SFA. And that's without even lifting.

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt179/Vantage72/Screen%20Shot%202016-05-06%20at%2018.48.43.png

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/early/2014/02/11/db13-1622.full.pdf+html

Pungiish
05-06-2016, 09:55 AM
It may. But we don't know this for sure.

There aren't many useful overfeeding studies where people used a small surplus comparing different macros.

Wilson did a high fat vs. high carb diet with resistance training. The high fat group lost more fat than the high carb group even though they were in surplus. The problem with this study is that there are concerns about the quality.

This is an interesting study too: people were overfed with muffins enriched with saturated fats or polyunsaturated fats. The group on PUFA gained more lean mass and less body fat than the group on SFA. And that's without even lifting.

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt179/Vantage72/Screen%20Shot%202016-05-06%20at%2018.48.43.png

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/early/2014/02/11/db13-1622.full.pdf+html

Wow, that's weird. Thanks for the info and the studies

Mrpb
05-06-2016, 10:01 AM
That last study is indeed remarkable. What's nice about it is that the body composition measurements was quite accurate. They used a combination of MRI, Bodpod and BIA. That's pretty impressive.

That study is why I believe it's probably a good idea to limit SFA when bulking. And if you're going to bulk on high fat make it a lot of unsaturated fats. I don't think it has to be PUFA necessarily, I expect MUFA will also do well.

unplugged
05-06-2016, 10:09 AM
To be honest I think we are just splitting hairs by debating/worrying about this. As Gxp stated there are a million other variables and i'd venture to say as long as the given surplus is the same size for both diets I think the difference it fat gain, if any, would be negligible at best.

allrnder
05-06-2016, 06:05 PM
Thanks for the replies guys.

So what I've gathered is that from excess carbs, only a little will go into fat and the rest into glycogen.
But with fat, excess calories will go directly into fat storage and barely anything into direct useable energy.

The problem still remains, I don't want to add another carb heavy meal but I want to add calories.

If I eat a fat based meal/snack directly after my workout when blood sugar levels are low, can this force more of the fat to go into glycogen and stuff instead of stored fat?
Or does timing not matter at all?

Metabolic pathways very simple here

http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/images/477xNxmetabolic_pathways.jpg.pagespeed.ic.b0EPoRb-QZ.jpg

ErikTheElectric
05-06-2016, 08:51 PM
Carbs > Dietary Fat in a surplus (IMHO)

Pungiish
05-06-2016, 09:59 PM
Metabolic pathways very simple here

http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/images/477xNxmetabolic_pathways.jpg.pagespeed.ic.b0EPoRb-QZ.jpg

Is this an older chart? Because of the starvation state i mean. Should it be disregarded? I understand it as if you don't eat carbs, your body goes into starvation state and starts making ketones out of fat which are then used as energy. But this state doesn't equal damaged metabolism like people were saying in the past. Am i atleast on the right path of understanding this here?

SuffolkPunch
05-07-2016, 01:14 AM
"starvation state" is a poor choice of words. Nutritional ketosis does not imply that you have a damaged metabolism or that you are unable to build muscle or store/burn net body fat.

As always:

net calorie balance > *

Gxp23
05-07-2016, 01:16 AM
"starvation state" is a poor choice of words. Nutritional ketosis does not imply that you have a damaged metabolism or that you are unable to build muscle or store/burn net body fat.

As always:

net calorie balance > *

So in other words in this case its just refering to ketosis, so to speak?

SuffolkPunch
05-07-2016, 01:46 AM
So in other words in this case its just refering to ketosis, so to speak?
That's what I take from that chart.

muruku
05-07-2016, 02:22 AM
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.sg/2014/04/fat-vs-carbohydrate-overeating-which.html

Gxp23
05-07-2016, 03:43 AM
That's what I take from that chart.

Makes sense.

Mrpb
05-07-2016, 03:44 AM
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.sg/2014/04/fat-vs-carbohydrate-overeating-which.html

^ The classic over feeding studies.

Few things to keep in mind when interpreting the results: no resistance training, very large surpluses (>1000 kcal), DXA scan will register increased glycogen as increased lean mass.

I haven't looked at the fatty acid composition of their diet. As can be seen in the previously mentioned study this can be important.

allrnder
05-07-2016, 04:29 AM
So in other words in this case its just refering to ketosis, so to speak?

Yep


That's what I take from that chart.

Yep.

Both of you got it.

I am a little drunk however. An alcohole is a different process lol. Mr PB If I am not reading something right here with these two Plz correct me. I am under the influence.

Still fits my macro's FYI :)

tenthirty
05-07-2016, 04:40 AM
Thanks for all the replies guys :)

You've all posted a heap of interesting points.
Guess I'll be adding a surplus using carbs :/ .

Gxp23
05-07-2016, 06:01 AM
Yep



Yep.

Both of you got it.

I am a little drunk however. An alcohole is a different process lol. Mr PB If I am not reading something right here with these two Plz correct me. I am under the influence.

Still fits my macro's FYI :)

Drink 1.5 litres of water before bed (Over a period of time lol)

allrnder
05-07-2016, 03:26 PM
Drink 1.5 litres of water before bed (Over a period of time lol)

Teah i forgot to drink any lol. Now there is a disco going on in my head.

gbullock32
05-07-2016, 05:57 PM
Thanks for all the replies guys :)

You've all posted a heap of interesting points.
Guess I'll be adding a surplus using carbs :/ .Add the surplus as you like, the difference will be minimal enough as to not really matter assuming you're not going for 10k+ calories per day or something stupid.