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ThinkAndGoHam
08-12-2015, 07:55 AM
I know that you don't have to deplete glycogen to loose fat but does glycogen depletion aid fat loss in anyway? lets say im glycogen depleted my body has no choice but to burn nothing but fat where as if i still have 80% glycogen stores isn't by body using both fat and glycogen there fore overall fat loss is slower?

Znik
08-12-2015, 08:09 AM
Nope, because your still going to have Gluconeogenesis (non-carb to glucose/glycogen) which will dig into your precious protein. Top of that, you still use the eaten energy, fat and protein also provide energy it's not like glycogen is the only fuel. Drop carbs or get glycogen depleted and fat,ketones and protein supply the fuel that glycogen would.

Fat is always our primary fuel, glycogen is used under circumstances where fat cannot provide fast or efficiently enough energy to support what you are doing, with insufficient glycogen/glucose available those circumstances takes a hit and your performance is reduced.

Top of that, to get glycogen depleted and stay depleted is a pretty damn hard thing to do, and it's going to wreck you. Know how marathon runners complain about hitting the wall ? Where they just want to give up, everything hurts, energy is gone and everything is screaming to stop ? That's what glycogen depletion is like, good luck having a decent TDEE under that scenario.

In short: No it doesn't affect fat loss, the size of the calorie deficit does.

sdunn96
08-12-2015, 08:11 AM
My opinion is yes it does help.....
But your energy levels will suck, and you will look flat.....stringy

I know for grins and giggles this week I am doing Mon - Thurs as low carb days so ~100 gr or less.....
And doing glycogen depleting workout sessions.....see how I respond to it.

Just trying something.

Znik
08-12-2015, 08:41 AM
I know for grins and giggles this week I am doing Mon - Thurs as low carb days so ~100 gr or less.....
And doing glycogen depleting workout sessions.....see how I respond to it.
Just trying something.

I recommend 12x12x12 with 15 sec rest between sets. Bye bye glycogen.

Cudacke
08-12-2015, 09:00 AM
your brain that doing all the thinking by the way uses glucose as it main source of energy.

sdunn96
08-12-2015, 09:51 AM
I recommend 12x12x12 with 15 sec rest between sets. Bye bye glycogen.

Kinda what I am doing.
3 compound exercises, full body, 4 sets, reps range between 10 - 15
So yesterday was
Squat - 10 reps, 1 to 1.5 min rest
Bench Press - 15 reps, 1 to 1.5 min rest
Pull-ups - 12 reps, body weight, 1 to 1.5 min rest

Today was:
DL - 225 lbs, 4 sets, 10 reps. 1.5 min rest
Bent over rows - 15 reps, 1.5 min rest, 4 sets
OHP - 12 reps, 1.5 min rest, 4 sets

Thursday will be LISS and abs

Friday I plan on
Leg press
Dips (prolly with some extra weight)
Military press

Znik
08-12-2015, 10:06 AM
Not really :p

My 12x12x12 glycogen depletion workouts means 12 exercises 12 sets 12 reps on each, 15 sec rest working with 30-60% of normal load, dropping when you start failing to reach 12 reps.

So it would be like:
Squat 12 x 12
Bench 12 x 12
Deadlift 12x12
Pull ups 12 x X (fatigue gonna kick in)
OHP 12 x 12
Dips 12 x X

And 6 random isolations 12 x 12
Everything done as explosive as possible while retaining adequate form.

It absolutely totally freaking sucks and hurts like crazy near the end, but it's wicked fun when you hit the wall.

sdunn96
08-12-2015, 10:19 AM
Not really :p

My 12x12x12 glycogen depletion workouts means 12 exercises 12 sets 12 reps on each, 15 sec rest working with 30-60% of normal load, dropping when you start failing to reach 12 reps.

So it would be like:
Squat 12 x 12
Bench 12 x 12
Deadlift 12x12
Pull ups 12 x X (fatigue gonna kick in)
OHP 12 x 12
Dips 12 x X

And 6 random isolations 12 x 12
Everything done as explosive as possible while retaining adequate form.

It absolutely totally freaking sucks and hurts like crazy near the end, but it's wicked fun when you hit the wall.

May have to give that a try next time I do this.
Gonna stick w/ my current plan this week, since it works with my time schedule.

Have to say though, it looks like over kill.

Znik
08-12-2015, 10:29 AM
May have to give that a try next time I do this.
Gonna stick w/ my current plan this week, since it works with my time schedule.

Have to say though, it looks like over kill.

It is waay overkill no doubt about that. Started out trying 8 x 8 x 8 , went ok so I upped the challenge a bit. There are far gentler way to achieve glycogen depletion, but I do like my overkills.

sdunn96
08-12-2015, 10:35 AM
It is waay overkill no doubt about that. Started out trying 8 x 8 x 8 , went ok so I upped the challenge a bit. There are far gentler way to achieve glycogen depletion, but I do like my overkills.

LOL
I will ponder on these things, and tweak my depleting workouts.....but for now, since my workout time is constrained, I opted for the routine I outlined above.
If I finish w/ some extra time, then I throw in a smaller muscle group (like biceps or triceps) for isolation.
And also I am in a fasted state of 14+ Hours, which I think helps with it to some degree.

I will add this here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/calorie-partitioning-part-2.html/

So you start your diet, reducing carbs, calories or both. Blood glucose and insulin levels are going to be reduced. This is good, it releases the ‘block’ on fat mobilization. Additionally, catecholamine release typically goes up, further increasing fat utilization. Blood levels of fatty acids will start to increase. This is good, as it tends to promote fat burning in tissues such as liver and muscle. This effect is facilitated if you deplete liver and muscle glycogen as glycogen depletion tends to increase the use of fatty acids for fuel. The increas in blood fatty acid levels also has the short-term effect of causing insulin resistance which, as I mentioned, is a good thing on a diet since it spares glucose and helps promote fat oxidation. So far, so good, right?

sdunn96
08-12-2015, 10:51 AM
Will also add in Lyle's "The Stubborn Fat Solution" book for a reading.
Ch 5, page 31 and 32
The paragraph before summary he notes that depleting glycogen stores "fat oxidation is ramped up ensuring mobilized fatty acids will get burned for energy".

While pairing this with a caloric deficit.

Znik
08-12-2015, 11:01 AM
Will also add in Lyle's "The Stubborn Fat Solution" book for a reading.
Ch 5, page 31 and 32
The paragraph before summary he notes that depleting glycogen stores "fat oxidation is ramped up ensuring mobilized fatty acids will get burned for energy".

While pairing this with a caloric deficit.

Yap, it can serve it's purpose in terms of stubborn fat and mobilizing fat in general. But I have not seen any indication of it resulting in a bigger fat loss (beyond the calorie deficit).
It would also raise the question of where a glycogen depleted state does not affect NEAT and performance to such a degree of where the DEF (deficit efficiency factor) crashes and if it's even possible to achieve one for the long haul.

Kinda goes along the lines of fasted LISS, burn tons of fat but the overall energy expenditure is not changed.

sdunn96
08-12-2015, 11:08 AM
Yap, it can serve it's purpose in terms of stubborn fat and mobilizing fat in general. But I have not seen any indication of it resulting in a bigger fat loss (beyond the calorie deficit).
It would also raise the question of where a glycogen depleted state does not affect NEAT and performance to such a degree of where the DEF (deficit efficiency factor) crashes and if it's even possible to achieve one for the long haul.

Kinda goes along the lines of fasted LISS, burn tons of fat but the overall energy expenditure is not changed.

I agree.

But I also assume that the OP is in a state of caloric deficit, since he is asking about depletion. I assume he knows the basics of weight loss.

And I also speak based on my own personal experience playing with it.
Me being in a fasted state for my workouts, usually around the 15 hour mark.
If you have depleted glycogen stores, and your carbs have been kept <100 gr (preferably around 50 gr)
Then the energy has to come from somewhere.....
And yes the workouts do take a hit...but usually you can get at least one or two sets of your various exercises in, going heavy.....
Like with me, doing weight pull-ups, I can still crank out about 2 sets of 3 - 4 reps, of pull-ups doing Body weight + 90 lbs (sometimes 100 lbs)

So it is something worth playing around with and seeing if it works for you or not....
Just my opinion.

Znik
08-12-2015, 11:08 AM
LOL
I will ponder on these things, and tweak my depleting workouts.....but for now, since my workout time is constrained, I opted for the routine I outlined above.
If I finish w/ some extra time, then I throw in a smaller muscle group (like biceps or triceps) for isolation.
And also I am in a fasted state of 14+ Hours, which I think helps with it to some degree.


Also one thing marathons runner do when they are training for glycogen depletion (to increase fat as a fuel efficiency) is to rinse your mouth with something carb laden and spit it out while training. Our brain seems to have a brake where it slows down glycogen usage if it senses it's low and slows everything down. Rinsing your mouth seems to trigger a "incoming carbs" response and it releases more glycogen.

http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/cience-of-bonking-and-glycogen-depletion/

This one is a tad interesting as well in terms of fat efficiency:
http://triathlon.competitor.com/2014/06/nutrition/inside-triathlon-magazine-fat-burning-machine_31034

sdunn96
08-12-2015, 11:15 AM
Also one thing marathons runner do when they are training for glycogen depletion (to increase fat as a fuel efficiency) is to rinse your mouth with something carb laden and spit it out while training. Our brain seems to have a brake where it slows down glycogen usage if it senses it's low and slows everything down. Rinsing your mouth seems to trigger a "incoming carbs" response and it releases more glycogen.

http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/cience-of-bonking-and-glycogen-depletion/

This one is a tad interesting as well in terms of fat efficiency:
http://triathlon.competitor.com/2014/06/nutrition/inside-triathlon-magazine-fat-burning-machine_31034

I have often thought about that.....
Because we know our body responds to ingestion of food by hormone signaling.....
So my thought was something along the lines of chewing gum or something like that......because if it is in your mouth, your body/mind has to assume "Ok, here comes food, let's start getting the body to receive this"
Kinda like Pavlov's dogs test.....which I am sure you know of that experiment.
So I don't think we as humans can be that different in automatic biological responses.....

The other thing with that, that I have also wondered about was putting in a little coconut/MCT oil in my coffee.
I put in a bit of that....our body doesn't know how much is going in....so it gets that fat into the system, so it turns on the oxidizing of fat (assuming insulin has been kept low)
So it is not like an abrupt on/off switch.....so the body has oxidized the MCT oil, but it doesn't know if that is all of the MCT's, so it continues to oxidize the fat a little longer.....so does it begin to oxidize body fat???
Understand what I am saying?

Znik
08-12-2015, 11:17 AM
I agree.

But I also assume that the OP is in a state of caloric deficit, since he is asking about depletion. I assume he knows the basics of weight loss.

And I also speak based on my own personal experience playing with it.
Me being in a fasted state for my workouts, usually around the 15 hour mark.
If you have depleted glycogen stores, and your carbs have been kept <100 gr (preferably around 50 gr)
Then the energy has to come from somewhere.....
And yes the workouts do take a hit...but usually you can get at least one or two sets of your various exercises in, going heavy.....
Like with me, doing weight pull-ups, I can still crank out about 2 sets of 3 - 4 reps, of pull-ups doing Body weight + 90 lbs (sometimes 100 lbs)

So it is something worth playing around with and seeing if it works for you or not....
Just my opinion.

Yep, I usually do my workouts fasted and semi-depleted as well, don't lift as well with food in my system. Though at low bodyfat I have to eat before or my workout goes to absolute crap.

One of the reasons we can still lift efficiently during fasted state in deficits is that there is a pretty interesting restructuring of skeletal muscle during a chronic deficit where glucose usage goes down and fat usage goes up.
The downside is that it makes our muscle super efficient in terms of EE during exercise.

I wrote a bit about it on the metabolic slowdown thread:


Skeletal Muscle efficiency adaption:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12609816
I have seen in VLC's or large weight loss causing a 40-70% less energy expenditure during exercise by this adaption (low intensity).

During a chronic deficit our skeletal muscle goes through some pretty fascinating changes, lowering glucose usage and increasing fat usage, making them super efficient etc. During a surplus on the other hand it switches around the other way and expend more energy. (I imagine this is why for some the maintenance of a surplus and a deficit can be vastly different).
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/298/1/R79 - long read but pretty cool.

sdunn96
08-12-2015, 11:22 AM
Yep, I usually do my workouts fasted and semi-depleted as well, don't lift as well with food in my system. Though at low bodyfat I have to eat before or my workout goes to absolute crap.
Sometimes I have felt that way, but it has not always happened that way.....I can only assume that for most of my life, I have always been at low body fat, so I am more accustomed to this state.
But there are times where my body is just screaming for some food......



One of the reasons we can still lift efficiently during fasted state in deficits is that there is a pretty interesting restructuring of skeletal muscle during a chronic deficit where glucose usage goes down and fat usage goes up.
The downside is that it makes our muscle super efficient in terms of EE during exercise.

Man have I noticed this....not always a good thing I think.

Znik
08-12-2015, 11:31 AM
Sometimes I have felt that way, but it has not always happened that way.....I can only assume that for most of my life, I have always been at low body fat, so I am more accustomed to this state.
But there are times where my body is just screaming for some food......



Man have I noticed this....not always a good thing I think.

If you have always been lean I imagine you are far better adapted at being at such levels than me coming from morbidly obese most of my life and never been at my current level of bodyfat before.

Yeah, the skeletal muscle changes in terms of survival is awesome. For intentional weight loss it's absolutely horrible, it doesn't seem to be as severe with a small-moderate deficit size compared to a VLC but it's still present.

lee__d
08-12-2015, 11:57 AM
Fat is always our primary fuel, glycogen is used under circumstances where fat cannot provide fast or efficiently enough energy to support what you are doing, with insufficient glycogen/glucose available those circumstances takes a hit and your performance is reduced.




http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/is-fat-preferred-fuel-source-body-qa.html/

EjnarKolinkar
08-12-2015, 08:40 PM
Kinda what I am doing.
3 compound exercises, full body, 4 sets, reps range between 10 - 15
So yesterday was
Squat - 10 reps, 1 to 1.5 min rest
Bench Press - 15 reps, 1 to 1.5 min rest
Pull-ups - 12 reps, body weight, 1 to 1.5 min rest

Today was:
DL - 225 lbs, 4 sets, 10 reps. 1.5 min rest
Bent over rows - 15 reps, 1.5 min rest, 4 sets
OHP - 12 reps, 1.5 min rest, 4 sets

Thursday will be LISS and abs

Friday I plan on
Leg press
Dips (prolly with some extra weight)
Military press


Or think like 2 hours on a bike @ 65% of VO2max followed by repeat sprints to exhaustion. Depleting significant muscle glycogen is hard. LMAO I'm convinced it's half the fat loss in folks random stubborn fat loss scenario depletion WO's, these hours of heavy exertion. Depletion of glycogen seems like something to do when you are looking for a reason to keep your mind occupied not thinking about how hungry you are, or how sick you are of dieting. Athletes do it to supercompensate.

Ultimately you feel like hammered chit. I think Znik is right about their being a trade off where you start to effect training performance, NEAT, etc. I think you have to be careful you don't try so hard for optimal fat burning chemistry, that you screw up your program for the sake of it. I mean retaining muscle is about 10x as important as improved fat mobilization IMO.

The deficit drives the fat loss anyway.

MuzzieChik786
08-12-2015, 09:10 PM
I want to try glycogen depletion. I haven't experienced it yet (although when I was keto my lifts and strength were crappy, but that's not depletion, correct?).

Does this mean I have to give up cookies?

The 12x12x12 looks ugly. Give me something simpler?

Znik
08-12-2015, 11:49 PM
I want to try glycogen depletion. I haven't experienced it yet (although when I was keto my lifts and strength were crappy, but that's not depletion, correct?).

Does this mean I have to give up cookies?

The 12x12x12 looks ugly. Give me something simpler?

Nope, that's just keto. IIRC during keto you still keep muscle glycogen levels pretty high ? Remember reading some studies where muscle glycogen levels return to baseline after lifting sessions during keto, probably due to Gluconeogenesis , not sure about liver glycogen but I imagine that would be fairly low. Then again im no expert on keto.

When you hit the glycogen depletion state you will know it. Typical signs for me is that Gluconeogenesis ramps up like crazy, start getting close to blacking out (vision goes dark and feels like the room is collapsing etc.), muscle soreness/pain goes through the roof, sluggishness and the sensation of everything in your body wanting to shut down/quit moving. Takes about 15-20min to push through it and I start feeling better, probably at that point Gluconeogenesis is high enough to support continuing exercise. All happens during the exercise.


There are a ton of ways to achieve it, obviously the first part is reducing carb intake as low as you can. Next step is just to do whatever you want that burns glycogen (moderate-high intensity stuff). Most studies and such uses what Ejnar posted, 2+ hours on a bike with moderate-high pace followed by sprints.

If you don't want the cardio approach then high intensity circuit training, or high volume, high rep, short rest does the same.

Or combine it all, doing it fasted should speed up the process.

lee__d
08-13-2015, 03:46 AM
Glycogen depletion is pretty unmistakable. When I was playing around with UD 2.0, oh man. The burning towards the end of a slow 15 rep set is crazy.

As far as the OP, go read UD 2.0 and you;ll see how it can be effective and when (rarely foe most) it should be implemented.

sdunn96
08-13-2015, 04:42 AM
Or think like 2 hours on a bike @ 65% of VO2max followed by repeat sprints to exhaustion. Depleting significant muscle glycogen is hard. LMAO I'm convinced it's half the fat loss in folks random stubborn fat loss scenario depletion WO's, these hours of heavy exertion. Depletion of glycogen seems like something to do when you are looking for a reason to keep your mind occupied not thinking about how hungry you are, or how sick you are of dieting. Athletes do it to supercompensate.

Ultimately you feel like hammered chit. I think Znik is right about their being a trade off where you start to effect training performance, NEAT, etc. I think you have to be careful you don't try so hard for optimal fat burning chemistry, that you screw up your program for the sake of it. I mean retaining muscle is about 10x as important as improved fat mobilization IMO.

The deficit drives the fat loss anyway.

I try to take it over a few days, and not all at once.
I am not trying very hard this week...just playing with some things.

But last year when I did it.
I kept carbs at or below 50 gr for 4 days
full body workouts, along with stair master for 45 min. a couple days I did that twice.

But who knows, maybe I didn't reach full depletion.

I will say that at the start of the week(when I did it last year) I was around 167 or 168.....I was down to 161 by Thursday morning.
This was following 11 months of calorie deficit/cut....where I went from 183 to that 168.

Needless to say I was VERY STRINGY.

This pic was the morning of 7/24/14 in at 161

Hardworker33
08-13-2015, 09:49 AM
Doing a UD 2.0 at the moment ( already done it before)

Just did my 1st refeed yesterday... depletion workouts are not easy at all. I do around 20-25 sets @ 15-20 reps with approx. 45 sec rest. Also, keep it mind those workouts are done with half maintenance calories ( 1300 in my case with max 50-60g carbs)

According to me, the hardest workout is the last one before the refeed : 2 depletion workouts + 1 rest day ( combined with 3x 1300 calories) + drag yourself to the gym to hit a full-body knowing the carb refeed is coming right after ( oh boy you lose strenght in that workout haha), that's a good sign I've depleted my glycogen :)

4600 calories, 950g of carbs later, the day after :only + 1.4 pounds. I guess my body sucked all the carbs, which is what the diet is all about.

sdunn96
08-13-2015, 10:18 AM
You can get an idea of what your carb stores are...
Do 15 * weight in kg.
That would be the amt of carbs you need to take in to refill stores.....
I would split over two days.

Obviously if you are not fully depleted, then I would do a little less than that number.

But for me, that number has been fairly accurate.