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humfree75
04-29-2015, 12:09 AM
Not sure if many of you are familiar with the work of Dr. Ray Peat, but i've incorporated a lot of his dietary advice during the past few months and i've seen a lot of health improvements, especially since it helped me recover from hypothyroidism. One of the key parts of his diet is the limitation of unsaturated fats, especially PUFAs. I'm wondering why the word 'healthy fats' comes up so often in the bodybuilding world when describing things like natural peanut butter? I mean it tastes great, but looking at the lectin, phytic acid and PUFA content I wouldn't describe it as something healthy. Here's a couple of interesting quotes from his article on the subject :

"Vegetable oil is recognized as a drug for knocking out the immune system. Vegetable oil emulsions were used to nourish cancer patients, but it was discovered that the unsaturated oils were suppressing their immune systems. The same products, in which vegetable oil is emulsified with water for intravenous injection, are now marketed specifically for the purpose of suppressing immunity in patients who have had organ transplants. Using the oils in foods has the same harmful effect on the immune system. [E. A. Mascioli, et al.,Lipids 22(6) 421, 1987.] Unsaturated fats directly kill white blood cells. [C. J. Meade and J. Martin, Adv. Lipid Res., 127, 1978.] "

" Unsaturated oils get rancid when exposed to air; that is called oxidation, and it is the same process that occurs when oil paint "dries." Free radicals are produced in the process.
This process is accelerated at higher temperatures. The free radicals produced in this process react with parts of cells, such as molecules of DNA and protein and may become attached to those molecules, causing abnormalities of structure and function. "

Aging involves a decreasing metabolic rate, an increased tendency toward inflammation, and a decreased ability to synthesize proteins. Inflammation contributes to the decreasing ability to use oxygen, and the slowed renewal of proteins combined with lower ability to produce energy impair the organism's ability to control peroxidative damage and inflammation.
The fragments of deteriorating PUFA combine with proteins and other cell materials, producing immunogenic substances. The so-called "advanced glycation end products," that have been blamed on glucose excess, are mostly derived from the peroxidation of the "essential fatty acids." The name, “glycation,” indicates the addition of sugar groups to proteins, such as occurs in diabetes and old age, but when tested in a controlled experiment, lipid peroxidation of polyunsaturated fatty acids produces the protein damage about 23 times faster than the simple sugars do (Fu, et al., 1996)."

Funny how saturated fat has been demonized in the past 30 years, but no one seems to really talk about those types of fat that are a fairly new addition the human diet in such high quantities. Any thoughts?

Mrpb
04-29-2015, 12:36 AM
FYI: Ray Peat's ideas about fatty acids are highly controversial.

Suggested reading:

Question #8 http://paleomovement.com/alan-aragon-paleo-critic/

And http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/a-primer-on-dietary-fats-part-2.html/

And SFAs during bulking are more likely stored as body fat: "In conclusion, overeating SFAs promotes hepatic and visceral fat storage, whereas excess energy from PUFAs may instead promote lean tissue in healthy humans."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24550191

MichielN
04-29-2015, 11:23 AM
Depends on factors like overall diet, fat intake, fatty acid balance, and source.

For example:

PUFAs from walnuts = fine.
PUFAs from refined sunflower oil = might want to limit those.
PUFAs as a large part of your total fat intake.

The text you quoted brings up some good points, but that does not mean you should go as far as limiting PUFAs from every source. It's a little more complicated than that.

Neither lectins, phytic acid or PUFAs are inherently healthy or unhealthy (in fact, long-chained PUFAs are essential nutrients). Phytic acid can inhibit mineral absorption but also has health benefits.

As a general rule of thumb I think you should not worry about PUFAs naturally occuring in whole foods, and limit (no need to go to great lenghts to avoid them) those found in processed foods and refined oils.

Advice: take information from people like ''Dr. Ray Peat'' with a grain of salt. Such guys are often out there to make a name for themselves.

DannPM
04-29-2015, 12:33 PM
FYI: Ray Peat's ideas about fatty acids are highly controversial.

And that's putting it nicely

humfree75
04-29-2015, 11:12 PM
The text you quoted brings up some good points, but that does not mean you should go as far as limiting PUFAs from every source. It's a little more complicated than that.

Neither lectins, phytic acid or PUFAs are inherently healthy or unhealthy (in fact, long-chained PUFAs are essential nutrients). Phytic acid can inhibit mineral absorption but also has health benefits.

As a general rule of thumb I think you should not worry about PUFAs naturally occuring in whole foods, and limit (no need to go to great lenghts to avoid them) those found in processed foods and refined oils.

Advice: take information from people like ''Dr. Ray Peat'' with a grain of salt. Such guys are often out there to make a name for themselves.

I completely agree with you on this. I think cutting out an entire group of whole foods like nuts is counter-productive. But nut butters is kinda like fruit juice imo, it's a bit too concentrated compared to eating the real thing. You often hear paleo folks talking about how bad omega 6s are, but using insane amounts of almond meal to make their "paleo cookies" seems fine to them.
As for Peat trying to make a name for himself, I desagree. He doesn't have anything to sell, not even a book. His views are too extreme and go against almost everything we're being told about nutrition, he's definitely not trying to be mainstream. Now i've read that he doesn't eat pork or chicken, and limits his egg consumption to reduce his PUFA intake, which I think is taking it a bit too far. Overall avoiding seed oils and concentrated sources of PUFA, and not fearing carbs from fruit makes sense to me from an evolutionary standpoint. Fructose-phobia is getting kinda old, especially since most studies demonizing fructose is based on isolated fructose, not sucrose (glucose+fructose, like in fruit).

What's your take on phytic acid? I know some say a certain amount can be healthy, but considering most of us eat a grain based diet heavy on the wheat and corn, it would make sense to try and limit it. I mean most traditional and ancient diets had people go to great lengths to reduce phytic acid in grains and nuts, by soaking/sprouting/fermenting.

Mrpb
04-29-2015, 11:29 PM
But nut butters is kinda like fruit juice imo, it's a bit too concentrated compared to eating the real thing.

That's not the case. You can buy 100% peanut butter, it's the same 'concentration' as regular peanuts.

20 gram of that butter has the same nutritional contents as 20 grams of peanuts.

Fruit juice is a different story mainly because it lacks the fiber that whole fruit has.

mccyjcb
04-30-2015, 08:03 AM
A few months ago when I was eating almost 200g fat a day, I would eat around 6 tbsp of Adams peanut butter a day. Only ingredient is peanuts. I didn't notice any change in body composition when I stopped eating peanut butter and added in more coconut oil to make for the difference. Just my .02.

stef799
05-12-2015, 09:48 AM
consume only virgin olive oil

JerryB
05-18-2015, 09:21 PM
I have been studying and researching fats since I have been on a ketogenic diet for 11 weeks. Dr. Stephen D. Phinney and Dr. Jeff S. Volek in their book "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance also recommend limiting the consumption of PUFAs. They also expose the myths about the health risk of saturated fats. My check diet is about 70% fats, 25% proteins. One issue with PUFA such as the fats in soy, corn, cottonseed, peanut, sunflower, and safflower oils are high in omega-6 and the human requirement for omega-6 in low. Omega-6 fats are more strongly associated with inflammation than omega-3 fats. Monounsaturated fats(MIFA) from olive oil and high oleic safflower oil may be a better option.

My consumption of saturated fats (SFA) is high. But given I'm becoming keto adaptive, meaning my metabolism is adapting to metabolizing fats more efficiently and producing ketones to replace glucose for aerobic cell respiration, the concern of SFA promoting hepatic and visceral fat storage are not applicable. I think if you are a high a carbs consumer with high SFA consumption then there may be issues.

The following is from the book by Dr Phinney and Dr. Volek.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e22/Jerry_Bruton/FatsCharts_zpsv8qn9eru.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/Jerry_Bruton/media/FatsCharts_zpsv8qn9eru.jpg.html)

humfree75
05-18-2015, 10:57 PM
I have been studying and researching fats since I have been on a ketogenic diet for 11 weeks. Dr. Stephen D. Phinney and Dr. Jeff S. Volek in their book "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance also recommend limiting the consumption of PUFAs. They also expose the myths about the health risk of saturated fats. My check diet is about 70% fats, 25% proteins. One issue with PUFA such as the fats in soy, corn, cottonseed, peanut, sunflower, and safflower oils are high in omega-6 and the human requirement for omega-6 in low. Omega-6 fats are more strongly associated with inflammation than omega-3 fats. Monounsaturated fats(MIFA) from olive oil and high oleic safflower oil may be a better option.

My consumption of saturated fats (SFA) is high. But given I'm becoming keto adaptive, meaning my metabolism is adapting to metabolizing fats more efficiently and producing ketones to replace glucose for aerobic cell respiration, the concern of SFA promoting hepatic and visceral fat storage are not applicable. I think if you are a high a carbs consumer with high SFA consumption then there may be issues

Although I don't consume much fat relative to my calorie intake, most of it is saturated. It comes mainly from milk, cheese, meat, and I get some MUFA and PUFA from eggs, olive oil, and some nuts. I also eat quite a lot of carbs, about 400g. How is the keto diet working for you? I did it for several months, followed by a low-moderate carb phase but I felt like absolute crap all the time, mentally and physically. During that period I also had to cut my calories even more to keep dropping fat, which indicates a drop in my metabolism. Maybe keto is something that works for some, but I feel I'm not one of them.

Mrpb
05-19-2015, 01:00 AM
Controversy exists over how much linoleic acid (LA) should be consumed in a healthy diet. Some claim that high LA intake promotes inflammation through accumulation of tissue arachidonic acid (AA) and subsequent production of pro-inflammatory lipid mediators. Here the author reviews the current available evidence from human studies that address this issue. The data indicate that high LA in the diet or circulation is not associated with higher in vivo or ex vivo pro-inflammatory responses. Surprisingly, several studies showed that those individuals consuming the highest level of LA had the lowest inflammatory status. Recent findings suggest that LA and AA are involved in both pro- and anti-inflammatory signaling pathways. Thus, within the ranges of intake that are achievable for most human populations, the evidence do not support reducing LA intake below current consumption levels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18990555


Because n-6 fatty acids are the precursors of proinflammatory eicosanoids, higher intakes have been suggested to be detrimental, and the ratio of n-6 to n-3 fatty acids has been suggested by some to be particularly important. However, this hypothesis is based on minimal evidence, and in humans higher intakes of n-6 fatty acids have not been associated with elevated levels of inflammatory markers.

In the United States, for example, intake of n-6 fatty acids doubled and coronary heart disease (CHD) mortality fell by 50% over a period of several decades. In a series of relatively small, older randomized trials, in which intakes of polyunsaturated fat were increased (even up to 20% of calories), rates of CHD were generally reduced.

In a more recent detailed examination of fatty acid intake within the Nurses' Health Study, greater intake of linoleic acid, up to about 8% of energy, has been strongly related to lower incidence of myocardial infarction or CHD death.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17876199

So much for Omega 6 causing inflammation.

oceanwild
06-10-2015, 02:17 AM
A few months ago when I was eating almost 200g fat a day, I would eat around 6 tbsp of Adams peanut butter a day. Only ingredient is peanuts. I didn't notice any change in body composition when I stopped eating peanut butter and added in more coconut oil to make for the difference. Just my .02.
wow.