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Stizzel
02-12-2015, 07:34 PM
Business owner supports minimum wage hikes, which then put him out of business. Socialists :rolleyes:


In November, San Francisco voters decided to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Now one of the law’s biggest supporters is paying the price.

Borderlands Books, a Mission District store specializing in science fiction, opened in 1997. The specialty shop had survived the dot-com boom and bust, the rise of Amazon and e-books, and drastically rising rents in San Francisco. But the city’s progressive policies proved too tough to endure:

In November, San Francisco voters overwhelmingly passed a measure that will increase the minimum wage within the city to $15 per hour by 2018. Although all of us at Borderlands support the concept of a living wage in principal and we believe that it’s possible that the new law will be good for San Francisco — Borderlands Books as it exists is not a financially viable business if subject to that minimum wage. Consequently we will be closing our doors no later than March 31st. The cafe will continue to operate until at least the end of this year.

Many businesses can make adjustments to allow for increased wages. The cafe side of Borderlands, for example, should have no difficulty at all. Viability is simply a matter of increasing prices. And, since all the other cafes in the city will be under the same pressure, all the prices will float upwards. But books are a special case because the price is set by the publisher and printed on the book. Furthermore, for years part of the challenge for brick-and-mortar bookstores is that companies like Amazon.com have made it difficult to get people to pay retail prices. So it is inconceivable to adjust our prices upwards to cover increased wages.

The change in minimum wage will mean our payroll will increase roughly 39%. That increase will in turn bring up our total operating expenses by 18%. To make up for that expense, we would need to increase our sales by a minimum of 20%. We do not believe that is a realistic possibility for a bookstore in San Francisco at this time.

San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee announced the living wage initiative last summer as a way to solve city’s extreme economic inequality. Despite San Francisco already having the highest minimum wage in the nation at the time, Lee insisted that the rate of $10.74 an hour “doesn’t cut it.”

It never crossed Lee’s mind that having the highest minimum wage might be a reason the Bay Area had among the highest economic inequality. Instead, the mayor opted for a few more layers of government and a few more chains around business owners’ necks; certainly, prosperity will reign in no time.

The fact that a few foolish business owners begged for those chains doesn’t change economic reality. The true minimum wage will always be zero, as Borderlands’ former employees are about to learn. For their next venture, perhaps they could open a calculator store.

http://ricochet.com/sf-raises-minimum-wage-zero/

tk217
02-12-2015, 08:02 PM
I am sure San Francisco doesn't mind as they don't read books - that is killing trees.

jacklambert58
02-12-2015, 08:05 PM
If only he could have hired illegal vietnamese 14 year olds at $2/day - his business might have been able to stay open another 8 months, cuz we all know that selling paper books in a brick & motar is the future.

tk217
02-12-2015, 08:37 PM
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Effort-to-push-teen-minimum-wage-down-290858331.html

This is actually an interesting Article.

Law makers want to lower minimum wage for teens because business owners refuse to hire teens at a high minimum wage (Washington State has one of the highest in the union).

dakensta
02-12-2015, 08:51 PM
In November, San Francisco voters overwhelmingly passed a measure that will increase the minimum wage within the city to $15 per hour by 2018. Although all of us at Borderlands support the concept of a living wage in principal* and we believe that it’s possible that the new law will be good for San Francisco — Borderlands Books as it exists is not a financially viable business if subject to that minimum wage. Consequently we will be closing our doors no later than March 31st.
March 31rd 2018, right? Right?

p.s. *principle

oe7Leo
02-12-2015, 08:59 PM
normally i'd say that $15/hr is ridiculous, but in SF that's still poverty mode

nutsy54
02-13-2015, 03:28 AM
"Many businesses can make adjustments to allow for increased wages. The cafe side of Borderlands, for example, should have no difficulty at all. Viability is simply a matter of increasing prices. And, since all the other cafes in the city will be under the same pressure, all the prices will float upwards."

Thus evaporating the feel-good results of naive politicians pandering for and buying votes with someone else's money...

Igmann
02-13-2015, 04:01 AM
It never crossed Lee’s mind that having the highest minimum wage might be a reason the Bay Area had among the highest economic inequality. Instead, the mayor opted for a few more layers of government and a few more chains around business owners’ necks; certainly, prosperity will reign in no time.

It probably has crossed his mind, only problem is that in a Democratic system, he's at the will of his constituents and unfortunately in this case, his constituents aren't a very bright group of people.

The concept is very simple. You raise minimum wage up to $15/hour and you will only be putting people who are incapable of bringing $15+/hour worth to the market, out of work. So your book store sales associates will be put out of work, simply because nothing that they do in their day of work in that position can bring more than $15/hour worth to the market (their employers). So either more people will become unemployed OR the prices have to be raised, causing an increase in the cost of living across the board, causing even more economic inequality.

leafs43
02-13-2015, 04:19 AM
Libs, when will they learn?

Haplo21
02-13-2015, 04:21 AM
It probably has crossed his mind, only problem is that in a Democratic system, he's at the will of his constituents and unfortunately in this case, his constituents aren't a very bright group of people.

The concept is very simple. You raise minimum wage up to $15/hour and you will only be putting people who are incapable of bringing $15+/hour worth to the market, out of work. So your book store sales associates will be put out of work, simply because nothing that they do in their day of work in that position can bring more than $15/hour worth to the market (their employers). So either more people will become unemployed OR the prices have to be raised, causing an increase in the cost of living across the board, causing even more economic inequality.

but but but...what about our feels? we wanna feeeeeeeeel like we are saving the world!

Bushmaster
02-13-2015, 05:34 AM
"Many businesses can make adjustments to allow for increased wages. The cafe side of Borderlands, for example, should have no difficulty at all. Viability is simply a matter of increasing prices. And, since all the other cafes in the city will be under the same pressure, all the prices will float upwards."

And HOW many times have we all heard that prices wouldn't increase? :rolleyes:

seven11
02-13-2015, 09:21 AM
has anyone noticed that this guy has failed to adjust his business policy to current trends? He has a book store among giants and was barely surviving. The minimum wage raise didn't kill his business, his poor leadership did.

MuzzieChik786
02-13-2015, 09:26 AM
I am sure San Francisco doesn't mind as they don't read books - that is killing trees.

Lawl.

TrettinR
02-13-2015, 09:32 AM
has anyone noticed that this guy has failed to adjust his business policy to current trends? He has a book store among giants and was barely surviving. The minimum wage raise didn't kill his business, his poor leadership did.

You're looking at this all wrong. Clearly the minimum wage raise that takes effect in 2018 killed this booming business in 2015. Sad too considering that bookstores everywhere are thriving.

JontheAtheist
02-13-2015, 10:05 AM
Does this café have free wifi? If not, I wouldn't consider going there anyway.

JontheAtheist
02-13-2015, 10:08 AM
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Effort-to-push-teen-minimum-wage-down-290858331.html

This is actually an interesting Article.

Law makers want to lower minimum wage for teens because business owners refuse to hire teens at a high minimum wage (Washington State has one of the highest in the union).

I agree with this. Teens ought to be focusing on education instead of worrying about making the almighty dollar at this age. They have the rest of their lives to slave away to The Man.

Just my .02.

NewDayHappy
02-13-2015, 10:09 AM
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if they raise the minimum wage, won't business owners just raise the prices on their products to compensate for the loss?

CitizenVagrant
02-13-2015, 10:09 AM
we all know that selling paper books in a brick & motar is the future.

This.

Businesses have to evolve or die. Very simple.

illriginalized
02-13-2015, 10:13 AM
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Effort-to-push-teen-minimum-wage-down-290858331.html

This is actually an interesting Article.

Law makers want to lower minimum wage for teens because business owners refuse to hire teens at a high minimum wage (Washington State has one of the highest in the union).

It's not really interesting.. it's common sense and was already an argument made by even young adults (libertarians)

_jJQJRKnu2I

Published on Feb 18, 2013

Liberals even pervert the core meaning of Socialism lol.. it's not stealing from the rich or making the rich pay for everything, that's for damn sure.

RIKTER
02-13-2015, 10:25 AM
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if they raise the minimum wage, won't business owners just raise the prices on their products to compensate for the loss?

LOl what do you think? BRB my margins are 12%, raising min wage lowers them to 8%…gonna have to get back that 4% somehow…..but it goes much deeper then that, it really hurts the middle class guy making $25 an hour as he now has much less buying power as a result. In fact, 2 adults living together, both making the proposed min wage of $15 would make more then the current household income of the avg family today….plus entitlement spending will have to increase as a result to keep up with increasing inflation, etc. If Im renting my 2 bedroom apt to people on welfare, or 2 guys making around 10-12 an hour for $750 a month…because thats what the market/area dictates..I can now raise my rent, because 2 people working full time making min wage would be bringing in 5200 a month and now could easily afford 1K a month rent.

Plus the forgotten thing of all this is, some unions have their pay rates tied to min wage, so when that goes up so does their members pay, even though they already make more then min wage..and of course more in the union coffers.

leafs43
02-13-2015, 10:33 AM
LOl what do you think? BRB my margins are 12%, raising min wage lowers them to 8%…gonna have to get back that 4% somehow…..but it goes much deeper then that, it really hurts the middle class guy making $25 an hour as he now has much less buying power as a result. In fact, 2 adults living together, both making the proposed min wage of $15 would make more then the current household income of the avg family today….plus entitlement spending will have to increase as a result to keep up with increasing inflation, etc. If Im renting my 2 bedroom apt to people on welfare, or 2 guys making around 10-12 an hour for $750 a month…because thats what the market/area dictates..I can now raise my rent, because 2 people working full time making min wage would be bringing in 5200 a month and now could easily afford 1K a month rent.

Plus the forgotten thing of all this is, some unions have their pay rates tied to min wage, so when that goes up so does their members pay, even though they already make more then min wage..and of course more in the union coffers.


It also hurts those that are unemployed or have fixed incomes.


brb, prices go up, the gap between haves and have nots gets bigger, better whip out the income inequality bullshet again.

primetime32
02-13-2015, 10:41 AM
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if they raise the minimum wage, won't business owners just raise the prices on their products to compensate for the loss?

I think the point was that people were already buying all their crap/Books from Amazon, now these mom and pop stores will have to jack up their prices even more and become less and less competitive. Ultimately, they will close down and these minimum wage workers will have to find another minimum wage job....if they're "lucky."

seven11
02-13-2015, 10:41 AM
I've read Milton Friedman's argument on the minimum wage and I agree with him. The government should stay out of these maters, however, with that said, raising somebodies wage does not mean the end of the business. Just compare Costco with Walmart, their overall wages are drastically different, yet both of them are profitable. One, has a lower turn over rate and higher employee satisfaction rate.

usersignup2
02-13-2015, 10:41 AM
LOl what do you think? BRB my margins are 12%, raising min wage lowers them to 8%…gonna have to get back that 4% somehow…..but it goes much deeper then that, it really hurts the middle class guy making $25 an hour as he now has much less buying power as a result. In fact, 2 adults living together, both making the proposed min wage of $15 would make more then the current household income of the avg family today….plus entitlement spending will have to increase as a result to keep up with increasing inflation, etc. If Im renting my 2 bedroom apt to people on welfare, or 2 guys making around 10-12 an hour for $750 a month…because thats what the market/area dictates..I can now raise my rent, because 2 people working full time making min wage would be bringing in 5200 a month and now could easily afford 1K a month rent.

Plus the forgotten thing of all this is, some unions have their pay rates tied to min wage, so when that goes up so does their members pay, even though they already make more then min wage..and of course more in the union coffers.

I am not for or against raising the minimum wage to $15...not yet at least.


BUT, it's posts like this that really cloud the issue. you can't just make figures up out of thin air and expect people to actually believe you. really, those numbers you put up are not even remotely close to reality. not one bit.

why not just argue that someone on minimum wage could now afford a 5 bedroom home and 5 cars? I mean, that's as close to reality as your example. you make no allowance for market conditions, yet site some fantasy figures.

illriginalized
02-13-2015, 10:53 AM
I am not for or against raising the minimum wage to $15...not yet at least.


BUT, it's posts like this that really cloud the issue. you can't just make figures up out of thin air and expect people to actually believe you. really, those numbers you put up are not even remotely close to reality. not one bit.

why not just argue that someone on minimum wage could now afford a 5 bedroom home and 5 cars? I mean, that's as close to reality as your example. you make no allowance for market conditions, yet site some fantasy figures.

Raising minimum wage hurts both the business and the consumer. It's not hard to figure out.

In order for a business to continue running it needs profits.
These profits are used for expanding whether by more employees, more hours/shifts, or larger/more store/office locations.
Another use of these profits are for bringing in new products and services, which in turn brings in more customers which = more revenue.
Another use of these profits is for raising the income of those employees who are doing a good job.

By raising the minimum wage you're eliminating the profits earned, significantly.
And if the business owner doesn't want to lose that percentage of profits they're going to increase their cost of their products and services.. which in turn will cause them lose more and more customers over time especially when products and services can be found much cheaper online.

Raising income by law causes everything to raise in cost in order to compensate, which in turn hurts everyone.

Fact.

Stizzel
02-13-2015, 10:56 AM
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if they raise the minimum wage, won't business owners just raise the prices on their products to compensate for the loss?

Yep. And what does that do to the demand curve?

TheStender
02-13-2015, 11:04 AM
Yep. And what does that do to the demand curve?

Thanks to the crappy economics class I'm currently enrolled in, I know the answer to this!

The answer is nothing. Nothing happens to the curve if prices are raised.

CitizenVagrant
02-13-2015, 11:11 AM
Yep. And what does that do to the demand curve?

Surely I, not being on the now much higher minimum wage, will quickly rush out and purchase these new, higher-priced goods and services.

......

Or I'll just sit and home and wait for them to be bailed out by the government and they'll take it in higher taxes.

Brb time to go get that minimum wage job. Why bust ass in a position that requires a college degree for $20/hr when I can make $15/hr making fries and hamburgers?

kenonator
02-13-2015, 11:38 AM
Minimum wage is not the problem nor the solution for wage equality. The average wages have not kept up with the cost of living. On top of that, if you look at the wage gap between the incredibly wealthy and average worker from the 40s-80s compared to the 90s, and on you'll see the gap growing bigger every year. The top just holds on to the wealth, the trickle down was a lie so they could retain more of it at the expense of the middle class.

RIKTER
02-13-2015, 12:00 PM
I am not for or against raising the minimum wage to $15...not yet at least.


BUT, it's posts like this that really cloud the issue. you can't just make figures up out of thin air and expect people to actually believe you. really, those numbers you put up are not even remotely close to reality. not one bit.

why not just argue that someone on minimum wage could now afford a 5 bedroom home and 5 cars? I mean, that's as close to reality as your example. you make no allowance for market conditions, yet site some fantasy figures.

What figures am I making up? I was giving examples, as an actual business owner and one who owns rental properties..if rising min wage effects a businesses margins, we will make it up somewhere else, could mean higher prices/less employees, etc and common sense dictates that with $15 min wage, I will have a wealthier pool of potential renters that will be able to afford my increased rents, especially if ones rents are in that lower end range of where your current renters will more then likely be receiving a pay increase…I know the incomes of people I rent to, so if I know that 2 people making combined 42K a year can pay $850 a month(real life #s BTW)…what can a combined ~60K income a year pay? Its more then $850…thats for sure. Its supply and demand. Theres a reason why ****ty little apts in San Fran go for what they do, because theres a lot of 6 figure incomes that can fill those units.

Mulyark
02-13-2015, 12:31 PM
Higher minimum wages are an invention of big corporate chains that love the idea of their Mom & Pop local competition getting wiped out while they are able to easily absorb the impact of higher wages. Many of the "social justice" activist groups that push for higher wages are bankrolled by big business through various bundlers and 501-3Cs. Add Obamacare mandates and soon everyone will be working for UniCorp.

JoshSP1985
02-13-2015, 01:00 PM
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if they raise the minimum wage, won't business owners just raise the prices on their products to compensate for the loss?

Yep that's why raising the minimum wage doesn't do anything. Simplistic example you earn $10 an hour and milk costs $2 or you make $20 an hour and milk costs $4.... you're in the same position you were before.

illriginalized
02-13-2015, 01:03 PM
Yep that's why raising the minimum wage doesn't do anything. Simplistic example you earn $10 an hour and milk costs $2 or you make $20 an hour and milk costs $4.... you're in the same position you were before.

Amazing how some people really can't wrap that around their heads.. it's basic mathematics.

tk217
02-13-2015, 01:23 PM
I agree with this. Teens ought to be focusing on education instead of worrying about making the almighty dollar at this age. They have the rest of their lives to slave away to The Man.

Just my .02.

If you grew up where I grew up - you needed a job as a teen to afford transportation - not all families are well planned - and a lot of school districts were so poor they couldn't bus children who were so far away (such as myself).

Driving@14crew

DizzySmalls
02-13-2015, 02:25 PM
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Effort-to-push-teen-minimum-wage-down-290858331.html

This is actually an interesting Article.

Law makers want to lower minimum wage for teens because business owners refuse to hire teens at a high minimum wage (Washington State has one of the highest in the union).
Everyone should read this article. The quotes are so funny

lsiberian
02-13-2015, 02:34 PM
Not sure it really has the impact people are crying that it will. Raising it won't end poverty and lowering won't end poverty either. There is enough capital flowing in SF to sustain a 15 dollar minimum wage. That said I think Apple and Google opening a factory in the area would do far more for the poor folks living their than simply raising minimum wage. They could even pay them 15 dollars an hour.

Jryt
02-13-2015, 02:38 PM
The minimum wage (and kusok) are the only things I get negged for here, so I'm not sure how much actual debate could happen, but as an aside, how often do you guys working in the US/workers in the US get pay increases?

Weightaholic
02-13-2015, 02:59 PM
Suspect it has less to do with a wage increase which comes into effect 3 years from now, and more to do with paper books dying as a medium.

nutsy54
02-13-2015, 03:32 PM
I've read Milton Friedman's argument on the minimum wage and I agree with him. The government should stay out of these maters, however, with that said, raising somebodies wage does not mean the end of the business. Just compare Costco with Walmart, their overall wages are drastically different, yet both of them are profitable. One, has a lower turn over rate and higher employee satisfaction rate.
There's a huge difference between a company making an educated, analytical business decision that works best for them.... And Big Government, thousands of miles away, making unilateral decisions based on political feelings and naive ignorance.

Stizzel
02-13-2015, 03:41 PM
Not sure it really has the impact people are crying that it will. Raising it won't end poverty and lowering won't end poverty either. There is enough capital flowing in SF to sustain a 15 dollar minimum wage. That said I think Apple and Google opening a factory in the area would do far more for the poor folks living their than simply raising minimum wage. They could even pay them 15 dollars an hour.

Raising the minimum wage will increase poverty, lowering will reduce it.

Stizzel
02-13-2015, 03:42 PM
Suspect it has less to do with a wage increase which comes into effect 3 years from now, and more to do with paper books dying as a medium.

A good way to axe niche markets is to artificially raise costs

RIKTER
02-13-2015, 05:33 PM
I've read Milton Friedman's argument on the minimum wage and I agree with him. The government should stay out of these maters, however, with that said, raising somebodies wage does not mean the end of the business. Just compare Costco with Walmart, their overall wages are drastically different, yet both of them are profitable. One, has a lower turn over rate and higher employee satisfaction rate.

Costco and walmart have 2 completely different business models. Costcos business model is based on membership fees.

flairon
02-13-2015, 06:07 PM
so a lower level bookstore specializing in science fiction died off?


this must be a crushing blow to the economy of SF. I bet all 2 employees are destitute now.


thanks obama

Dave22reborn
02-13-2015, 06:16 PM
I agree with this. Teens ought to be focusing on education instead of worrying about making the almighty dollar at this age. They have the rest of their lives to slave away to The Man.

Just my .02.

What's wrong with a teenager having a part time job?

flairon
02-13-2015, 06:19 PM
What's wrong with a teenager having a part time job?

seriously. I was working on making my own money at about 10 selling burpee seeds from the back of comic books

Spartacus777
02-13-2015, 06:32 PM
So all the businesses who pay the minimum wage have to raise costs.

Which means the actual purchasing power of the minimum wage workers are either the exact same or soon will be.

And numerous small business who couldn't do this ostensibly closed like this one, or soon will, and that's that many more unemployed people.

The minimum wage everyone. Good chit.

dweeegs
02-13-2015, 06:57 PM
lol

Has this dude heard about the internet

IronRooster2
02-13-2015, 07:55 PM
Suspect it has less to do with a wage increase which comes into effect 3 years from now, and more to do with paper books dying as a medium.

Sounds like the thread title is accurate then!

SciFi Raises Minimum Wage to Zero

I miss the days human beings had work to do slightly. Because then they got paid. Oh well. Citizen's dividend within 40 years, heyo....