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ukswimfanman
02-11-2015, 10:27 AM
Theyre recent to the market and supposed to suppress myostatin?

Anybody ever used one of these products (epicat, EP1C)?

VaughnTrue
02-11-2015, 10:29 AM
inb4danes

kissdadookie
02-11-2015, 10:29 AM
The newer study that came out, it is intriguing.

We have it in our Max-HP preworkout but that product stands on the merits of the pump complex and good blend of caffeine anhydrous + dicaffeine malate, so the (-)epi is sort of a nice bonus.

I'm probably going to try one of the products you've named OP. Try it for 3 months, see how it goes. Have not tried it yet though.

VaughnTrue
02-11-2015, 10:34 AM
The newer study that came out, it is intriguing.

We have it in our Max-HP preworkout but that product stands on the merits of the pump complex and good blend of caffeine anhydrous + dicaffeine malate, so the (-)epi is sort of a nice bonus.

I'm probably going to try one of the products you've named OP. Try it for 3 months, see how it goes. Have not tried it yet though.

Wouldn't you need ~6 scoops to hit the 150mg used in the study(ies?)

I didn't notice it had this before you mentioned it.

kissdadookie
02-11-2015, 10:40 AM
Wouldn't you need ~6 scoops to hit the 150mg used in the study(ies?)

I didn't notice it had this before you mentioned it.

Yeah, it's not in there for that for sure. Probably in there for potential NO properties and potential antioxidant properties. It's 75 mg short of a good follistatin boosting dose.

The recent (-)epi study used 200 mg which was a good deal better than 100 mg but 100 mg did give a significant increase in follistatin. The 50 mg dose had some effects but paled in comparison to the 100 mg dose as well as the 200 mg dose (obviously).

A thing to note is that the elevated follistatin appears to be directly correlated with (-)epi's half life. So for people thinking about using this stuff, maybe experiment with spreading the doses out to potentially keep follistatin elevated for as long a period as possible.

Danes
02-11-2015, 10:56 AM
Like i said before

EPICATECHIN:
-Good antioxidant
-boost N.O
-it can increase follistatin which may decrease Myostatin.

Personaly i dont think % will be so high to make any good gains.(like i said many times)
Its like DAA.
A study showed 40% T increase after 12 days. Impressed? Well. Its nothing to brag of. It will not lead to any amazing gains either.
So study showing follistatin increase from Epicatechin does not make me interessed either. Actually creatine and good old fashion Weighlifting lower myostatin .

I know couple who tried real follistatin and it was crap. So how can Follidrone (Epicatechin) be any better?
I dont think it goes like this:
Higher follistatin-lower myostatin=directly gains.
I believe there are other important keys to make that happen.
Follistatin is not the be all to end all of peptide hormones affective muscle accrual. We need to play around with decorin and myostatin.

" it's not as simple as more folli = less myo. It doesn't really work like that. These are multi-step systems. Decorin and TGF-beta both play huge roles and so far no herbs possess modulations to these factors"

IS epicatechin waste of money?
Not at all. Its at least amazing antioxidant, potent N.O booster and what do we know? Maybe it really works if the dosage and timing is correct?
Time will show :)

I have tried 1g epicatechin with just small increase in endurance.
If a company want to let me try their Epicatechin product i am interessed
Could try 100-200mg each 4 hour like suggested by Kissdadookie

VicMackey92
02-11-2015, 11:19 AM
another scam for people who look for muscle in a pill

noaddedhormones
02-11-2015, 11:34 AM
I liked a transdermal version i tried when dosed high.

noaddedhormones
02-11-2015, 11:35 AM
another scam for people who look for muscle in a pill

Lolol right on mate, how did your arms workout go today?

kissdadookie
02-11-2015, 11:36 AM
I liked a transdermal version i tried when dosed high.

I don't see the purpose for a transdermal. (-)epi is clearly very bioavailable and soluble in water (as the subjects in the recent study was administered oral (-)epi in water).

Danes
02-11-2015, 11:38 AM
I liked a transdermal version i tried when dosed high.

I gonna try last time 200mg each 4 hour.

VicMackey92
02-11-2015, 11:39 AM
Lolol right on mate, how did your arms workout go today?

ok ok

noaddedhormones
02-11-2015, 11:40 AM
I don't see the purpose for a transdermal. (-)epi is clearly very bioavailable and soluble in water (as the subjects in the recent study was administered oral (-)epi in water).

Probably right, id assume there may be differences in length of absorption and detectable levels in serum between the two which may benefit a transdermal?

kissdadookie
02-11-2015, 11:50 AM
Probably right, id assume there may be differences in length of absorption and detectable levels in serum between the two which may benefit a transdermal?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends and with (-)epi, nobody really knows, thus the TD version, they essentially made it just because they can make it IMO. I'm really not convinced that it is better ATM though to have it in TD form.

It's similar to how claims are being made that TD laxogenin is far superior, I have not seen data showing that laxogenin had poor bioavailibility via oral administration. In fact, practically all the ecdysteroids and relatives thereof have been studied typically via oral administration. The question was always if they actually did much of anything rather than if they were orally bioavailable or not.

noaddedhormones
02-11-2015, 11:52 AM
Maybe, maybe not. Depends and with (-)epi, nobody really knows, thus the TD version, they essentially made it just because they can make it IMO. I'm really not convinced that it is better ATM though to have it in TD form.

It's similar to how claims are being made that TD laxogenin is far superior, I have not seen data showing that laxogenin had poor bioavailibility via oral administration. In fact, practically all the ecdysteroids and relatives thereof have been studied typically via oral administration. The question was always if they actually did much of anything rather than if they were orally bioavailable or not.

Lol Ecdy and Lax. I can only go by my anecdote and ive tried both oral and TD. Pumps and vascularity were definitely more obvious in TD version.

noaddedhormones
02-11-2015, 11:54 AM
I gonna try last time 200mg each 4 hour.

Should be an interesting experiment. Run a log at the minds ;)

kissdadookie
02-11-2015, 11:55 AM
Lol Ecdy and Lax. I can only go by my anecdote and ive tried both oral and TD. Pumps and vascularity were definitely more obvious in TD version.

That's very possible, but then again, maybe the dosing is different using TD vs oral (as in, I don't know how evenly distributed it is in the lotion). Who knows, I haven't tried either at high enough doses to form an opinion, thus just pointing out observations and what not :D

Synapsin
02-11-2015, 12:23 PM
another scam for people who look for muscle in a pill

Anything to do with myostatin is a waste

noaddedhormones
02-11-2015, 12:30 PM
Anything to do with myostatin is a waste

Whats your views on -epi not including its purported effects on myo/folli ratio?

eatyourspinach
02-11-2015, 12:47 PM
I think if something actually inhibited myostatin significantly it would be used clinically for cancer patients, but the supplement business is profitable so maybe I'm wrong.

kissdadookie
02-11-2015, 01:12 PM
I think if something actually inhibited myostatin significantly it would be used clinically for cancer patients, but the supplement business is profitable so maybe I'm wrong.

To be fair, they are studying it for medical uses iirc. I think some drug company may be currently researching it for the purpose you've suggested.

It's obviously not going to realistically slap 100 lbs on your deadlift within a week or make you gain like myostatin knock out lab mice, but ATM I wouldn't completely dismiss it as the research is pretty intriguing (though the grip strength study was meh).

Synapsin
02-11-2015, 01:22 PM
Whats your views on -epi not including its purported effects on myo/folli ratio?

No comment.


I think if something actually inhibited myostatin significantly it would be used clinically for cancer patients, but the supplement business is profitable so maybe I'm wrong.

Laughable that anybody in the supplement business can pretend they have some sort of inside scoop on something pharma has spent billions on and has yet to really succeed with (not directing this at you btw KDD)

kissdadookie
02-11-2015, 01:26 PM
No comment.



Laughable that anybody in the supplement business can pretend they have some sort of inside scoop on something pharma has spent billions on and has yet to really succeed with (not directing this at you btw KDD)

Yup. Totally gotcha :D

Danes
02-11-2015, 02:13 PM
Should be an interesting experiment. Run a log at the minds ;)

I think i gonna buy more PA :D

TMac26
02-11-2015, 02:18 PM
Laughable that anybody in the supplement business can pretend they have some sort of inside scoop on something pharma has spent billions on and has yet to really succeed with (not directing this at you btw KDD)



I don't think people realize how badly pharma wants an actual myo inhibitor and the ungodly market it would have in cancer patients, muscular dystrophy patients, etc.

bencarpenter
02-11-2015, 02:23 PM
I was sent a bottle for free.

Ran it at the recommended dose and noticed zero in terms of anything.

rhadam
02-11-2015, 02:47 PM
Anything to do with myostatin is a waste

Well, anything that's not pharma grade ;)

Jiigzz
02-11-2015, 03:11 PM
I was sent a bottle for free.

Ran it at the recommended dose and noticed zero in terms of anything.

Liar ;)

Big.Jazayrli
02-11-2015, 04:01 PM
I want it to be true

bencarpenter
02-12-2015, 04:58 AM
Liar ;)

lol. :)

I wanted it to work but unfortunately couldn't even placebo myself into feeling anything.

I would have loved 100lbs on my deadlift in a week! :D

raiders4life84
02-12-2015, 05:39 AM
lol. :)

I wanted it to work but unfortunately couldn't even placebo myself into feeling anything.

I would have loved 100lbs on my deadlift in a week! :D

Ben the crusher of dreams. :(

Mr.Cooper69
02-12-2015, 11:29 AM
Maybe, maybe not. Depends and with (-)epi, nobody really knows, thus the TD version, they essentially made it just because they can make it IMO. I'm really not convinced that it is better ATM though to have it in TD form.

It's similar to how claims are being made that TD laxogenin is far superior, I have not seen data showing that laxogenin had poor bioavailibility via oral administration. In fact, practically all the ecdysteroids and relatives thereof have been studied typically via oral administration. The question was always if they actually did much of anything rather than if they were orally bioavailable or not.

Um, no. You literally just posted above that the effects are dependent on tissue epicatechin exposure (well you said halflife which is incorrect, but I know what you meant). So transdermals delay release across 8 hours. Furthermore, just because something works orally doesn't mean it won't work better transdermally, esp. a catechin.

That said, I think people forget how myostatin works. Expression is jacked up by inactivity, and resistance training heavily suppresses myostatin, so any further suppression is just a drop in the bucket.

rhadam
02-12-2015, 11:38 AM
Is this an appropriate time to tell people to check the logs bro?

noaddedhormones
02-12-2015, 11:49 AM
Um, no. You literally just posted above that the effects are dependent on tissue epicatechin exposure (well you said halflife which is incorrect, but I know what you meant). So transdermals delay release across 8 hours. Furthermore, just because something works orally doesn't mean it won't work better transdermally, esp. a catechin.

That said, I think people forget how myostatin works. Expression is jacked up by inactivity, and resistance training heavily suppresses myostatin, so any further suppression is just a drop in the bucket.

So do you see any utility in -epi for bodybuilding purposes?

kissdadookie
02-12-2015, 11:52 AM
Um, no. You literally just posted above that the effects are dependent on tissue epicatechin exposure (well you said halflife which is incorrect, but I know what you meant). So transdermals delay release across 8 hours. Furthermore, just because something works orally doesn't mean it won't work better transdermally, esp. a catechin.

That said, I think people forget how myostatin works. Expression is jacked up by inactivity, and resistance training heavily suppresses myostatin, so any further suppression is just a drop in the bucket.

Here's the thing, we know what the dosing is for oral. If you use a transdermal which also DELAYS release, now your blood peak levels may end up being different. So dosing STILL needs to be investigated rather than just assuming that 200 mg oral worked so let's use 200 mg transdermal without factoring in peak blood levels of the compound differences due to the delay release.

Another thing to keep in mind, some compounds act differently depending on if it's transdermally administered, orally administered, or just IV administered. These are variables which aren't being looked into and what we essentially have is a company making a transdermal for more or less anything they could make a transdermal version for, very obviously due to simple demand rather than something actually working better or not transdermally.

There's also metabolites of (-)epi which they have detected in the study. Do those have any value? I don't know, maybe they do. Do these metabolites appear as well through transdermal administration and if they do, are there differences in peak levels and does that make a difference?

As for my use of halflife, I referred the follistatin and (-)epi halflife relationship to be correlations which is admittedly kind of abstract or broad I suppose, so thank you for clarifying it further as your description is far better.

TMac26
02-12-2015, 11:54 AM
Today is going to be a good day.

ajvitan
02-12-2015, 11:59 AM
Today is going to be a good day.

http://m.memegen.com/qpd19t.jpg

VinnyPazRules
06-13-2015, 02:37 PM
This stuff was going for almost 100 bucks in some places when it came out and now its $9.99 if that tells you anything?

rhadam
06-13-2015, 02:51 PM
This stuff was going for almost 100 bucks in some places when it came out and now its $9.99 if that tells you anything?

I don't necessarily think that's indicative of the product not working, i think it was capitalizing on being "new" and "flashy" and then other companies getting in on it and selling for more reasonable prices. It also depends on the company and where you buy it. I can go in to a brick and mortar and pay 60$ for 2lbs of protein or buy it off bb.com for 25$. You also have companies that deal with bulk ingredients like SNS who iirc just started selling epi.

ahawk01
06-13-2015, 04:02 PM
Yep, I like to try the newer sups. The only sup that I can say worked is phosphamuscle.. I tried ara and didn't think it promoted me wanting to lift regularly just wanted to have more rest days... Epi still too expensive for my tastes. I'll stick to creatine, sl granules, fish oil, and preworkouts as my staples.

JohnBraithwaite
06-13-2015, 05:35 PM
Does anybody have any experience with Epicatechin products?


yes & I can say Follidrone works

LinoTalaveron
06-10-2017, 07:29 AM
Epicatechin is a very effective substance, its highest dosage is in dark chocolate (41.5 mg/100 g)
Here are the benifits:

-Increase muscle growth and strength
-Improve muscle endurance
-Inhibit myostatin
-Increase blood flow and nitric oxide
-Improve insulin sensitivity
-Lower cholesterol; and
-Improve blood pressure

A study conducted on males of an average age of 40 showed that approximately 170mg of epicatechin per day, dosed at 2mg per kg of bodyweight, resulted in almost a 50% increase in follistatin and a 16.6% decrease in myostatin, alongside a strength increase of 7%. In a second study, researchers provided participants with 50-200mg of epicatechin a day and were amazed to find that their follistatin levels were 250% higher after just 5 days.

Coinsidence? Think not

eatyourspinach
06-10-2017, 08:35 AM
Epicatechin is a very effective substance, its highest dosage is in dark chocolate (41.5 mg/100 g)
Here are the benifits:

-Increase muscle growth and strength
-Improve muscle endurance
-Inhibit myostatin
-Increase blood flow and nitric oxide
-Improve insulin sensitivity
-Lower cholesterol; and
-Improve blood pressure

A study conducted on males of an average age of 40 showed that approximately 170mg of epicatechin per day, dosed at 2mg per kg of bodyweight, resulted in almost a 50% increase in follistatin and a 16.6% decrease in myostatin, alongside a strength increase of 7%. In a second study, researchers provided participants with 50-200mg of epicatechin a day and were amazed to find that their follistatin levels were 250% higher after just 5 days.

Coinsidence? Think not

study link?

poison
06-10-2017, 10:44 AM
dark chocolate (41.5 mg/100 g)

I'm on it. Noms.

TMac26
06-11-2017, 05:17 AM
study link?


Doubt you will see it

Dizzy4
06-13-2017, 10:11 AM
I was looking for more information and this what I found
Sources:
sci-hub.cc/10.1016/j.jnutbio.2013.09.007
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19754118
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20432242
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22552030
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4696435/#B257