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View Full Version : instead of bulking, shouldn't i be cutting ?



Hamachi12
01-28-2015, 06:18 AM
i weigh around 150 lb. with very little muscle, therefore, i must have a lot of fat on me. So shouldn't i get rid of that fat first? I'm always told to bulk, but that will just make me look even fatter since fat sits on top of muscle.

chibixeno
01-28-2015, 07:45 AM
i weigh around 150 lb. with very little muscle, therefore, i must have a lot of fat on me. So shouldn't i get rid of that fat first? I'm always told to bulk, but that will just make me look even fatter since fat sits on top of muscle.

You weigh 150 lb. Bulk.

dmacdonal9
01-28-2015, 08:06 AM
that will just make me look even fatter since fat sits on top of muscle.

That's actually not true for the most part. Muscle grows in different places than fat does.

Even in areas where you have signifigant amounts of both (like the chest in men and thighs in women) there's a big aesthetic difference in muscle covered with some fat than very little muscle covered in the same amount of fat.

At 151 you may do more to improve your appearance with a bulk than you will with further cutting.

Calarian
01-28-2015, 08:15 AM
Bulk for 2-3 months or so see where you are at, then cut again.

shinyelement
01-28-2015, 08:21 AM
That's actually not true for the most part. Muscle grows in different places than fat does.

Even in areas where you have signifigant amounts of both (like the chest in men and thighs in women) there's a big aesthetic difference in muscle covered with some fat than very little muscle covered in the same amount of fat.

At 151 you may do more to improve your appearance with a bulk than you will with further cutting.

Im 5'10/5'11 and i have 151 lbs as well, and i have so much fat that i barely can see my abs. Bulking when ppl are not happy with their body will just create a cycle of failed bulks, cause as soon as he starts bulking and getting bloated, he will give up.

Serpentarius
01-28-2015, 08:33 AM
It's because of lack of nutrition, programming, and overload that there is little muscle if you still have fat at that weight.

shinyelement
01-28-2015, 08:41 AM
It's because of lack of nutrition, programming, and overload that there is little muscle if you still have fat at that weight.

Still, there will more fat even when he bulks, so bulking = more fat = more likely to hate the body = endless cycle

mjf100215
01-28-2015, 08:41 AM
Im 5'10/5'11 and i have 151 lbs as well, and i have so much fat that i barely can see my abs. Bulking when ppl are not happy with their body will just create a cycle of failed bulks, cause as soon as he starts bulking and getting bloated, he will give up.

Oh no! You can't see your abs! Well, that's the most important muscle group! It's most important to be skinny as a rail and have no real muscle as long as you can see your stomach muscles.

OP, bulk for 6 months and reassess. I guarantee even if you put on a bit of fat while bulking, you'll be happy with the extra muscle you add and how it makes you feel.

dmacdonal9 gave sound advice. Follow it.

Serpentarius
01-28-2015, 08:51 AM
Still, there will more fat even when he bulks, so bulking = more fat = more likely to hate the body = endless cycle

Not if he does things correctly, guessing OP is weak as hell. Keep dietary fat to required minimums, don't have excessive surplus, and follow correct programming and there won't be any negative body composition changes, especially as a novice. He's thin, not fat, he isn't impressing anyone and needs to forget the idea of abs for a couple years, he isn't going to get any girls from being a twink. When he has a muscle base he can then worry about dropping to a lean level since he is a normal guy with no real end goal in sight, we are NOT bodybuilders

dmacdonal9
01-28-2015, 09:26 AM
Still, there will more fat even when he bulks, so bulking = more fat = more likely to hate the body = endless cycle

I know what you mean, that can happen, especially if you go buts on a bulk as a beginner and "eat big to get big". I've done that.

But done right, even adding a small amount of fat, along with significant amounts of muscle, will have you looking and feeling better than before. I've done that too.

This fat-phobia beginners have is understandable, but it's not always a reason to just continue endless cutting. Get rid of the ureasonable phobia instead.

nperera86
01-28-2015, 09:38 AM
Oh no! You can't see your abs! Well, that's the most important muscle group! It's most important to be skinny as a rail and have no real muscle as long as you can see your stomach muscles.

OP, bulk for 6 months and reassess. I guarantee even if you put on a bit of fat while bulking, you'll be happy with the extra muscle you add and how it makes you feel.

dmacdonal9 gave sound advice. Follow it.

I actually think bulking is the right solution but shinyelement has a very valid point. If you aren't initially satisfied with the fat content of your body, a further bulk will only result in failure. The moment clothes start fitting tighter (and not in a good way) is the moment most people give up.

Being in the inbetween stage of high bf% and still relatively light weight is a hard position to be - if you cut, you become MORE skinny fat and if you bulk, you never get to enjoy seeing a positive progression of your body without the negative feelings of becoming more fat in the area's you can't stand.

A slow clean bulk imo would be the best - especially if you're new to training and in the skinny fat position. The irony is if you're new to training slow and steady is the last thing you want to do.

servonlewis
01-28-2015, 09:40 AM
Bulk for 2-3 months or so see where you are at, then cut again.

8-12 months unless not natural...3 is enough to do nothing honestly.

shinyelement
01-28-2015, 10:22 AM
Not if he does things correctly, guessing OP is weak as hell. Keep dietary fat to required minimums, don't have excessive surplus, and follow correct programming and there won't be any negative body composition changes, especially as a novice. He's thin, not fat, he isn't impressing anyone and needs to forget the idea of abs for a couple years, he isn't going to get any girls from being a twink. When he has a muscle base he can then worry about dropping to a lean level since he is a normal guy with no real end goal in sight, we are NOT bodybuilders

You may be right for OP, but im talking about myself here. Mt body fat level are so stupid for my weight and height. Sure, i can see some definition on the mirror, but the amount of fat that i pack on my brlly and legs is to high, if i sit down i have this massive ball of fat, not water retention, pure fat, and my legs are fat as ****. And for some reason, even if i eat like 150 grs of carbs a day im still bloated as if i eat a house lol.

shinyelement
01-28-2015, 10:35 AM
Have my example here, i may look "normal" and a lot skinny http://i59.tinypic.com/2wprsx1.jpg

But then the amount of fat that i still have... http://i57.tinypic.com/153oh2u.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/f57ul3.jpg

dmacdonal9
01-28-2015, 10:47 AM
Have my example here, i may look "normal" and a lot skinny

Nothing special there mate. I'd give you the same advice I'd give OP. You'll do more to improve with a bulk than you will with a cut.

Serpentarius
01-28-2015, 10:56 AM
Have my example here, i may look "normal" and a lot skinny http://i59.tinypic.com/2wprsx1.jpg[IMG]

But then the amount of fat that i still have... [IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/153oh2u.jpg

[IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/f57ul3.jpg[IMG]

You have no fat on you, VERY skinny, of course when you grab an entire handful, i can do that and im lean. So what happens to the skin around that when you pinch it? There is nothing there because you are taking the slack out of everything.
naturals dont get "shredded" sorry to break it to you, you will always look flat because without diuretics and other drugs, you wont have a certain look. You are about 10% bf but look that way because have very little muscle.
Some homework, lay on your back and get a big arch with your stomach as high as you can in the air, NOW there is nothing to pinch. Try grabbing two handfuls of "fat" right next to eachother, what happens?

biggoron
01-28-2015, 11:25 AM
eat and lift.

shinyelement
01-28-2015, 12:13 PM
You have no fat on you, VERY skinny, of course when you grab an entire handful, i can do that and im lean. So what happens to the skin around that when you pinch it? There is nothing there because you are taking the slack out of everything.
naturals dont get "shredded" sorry to break it to you, you will always look flat because without diuretics and other drugs, you wont have a certain look. You are about 10% bf but look that way because have very little muscle.
Some homework, lay on your back and get a big arch with your stomach as high as you can in the air, NOW there is nothing to pinch. Try grabbing two handfuls of "fat" right next to eachother, what happens?

I can do the same with two fingers. Im not saying that a natural can get that kind of definition, what im saying is that i have friends that dont lifts or cant even lift 1/3 of what i lift and their fat is completly different. Its way more solid, mine is like jelly and thats the problem, it feels like jelly so if i fold down it looks way worse, or if im sit down.

Serpentarius
01-28-2015, 12:37 PM
I can do the same with two fingers. Im not saying that a natural can get that kind of definition, what im saying is that i have friends that dont lifts or cant even lift 1/3 of what i lift and their fat is completly different. Its way more solid, mine is like jelly and thats the problem, it feels like jelly so if i fold down it looks way worse, or if im sit down.

That has more to do with skin elasticity, you may just have bad skin.

well...what are your lifting stats? (no curls or tricep movements)

shinyelement
01-28-2015, 12:39 PM
well...what are your lifting stats? (no curls or tricep movements)

I've never truly bulked, so i got these lifts basically on a year of cutting. 80 kgs of bench press for 3x5, 115 kgs for 3x5 of squats and 150 kgs of deadlift for 1x5. Not impressive, true, but for my first goal, wich is have a body lean enough to feel good with myself, this should be enough.

shinyelement
01-29-2015, 01:33 AM
Bump.

Chrislonde
01-29-2015, 03:06 AM
Shiny, you will never get the definition you want if you don't bulk because you don't have the muscle mass to support it, and probably don't follow a strict enough diet to show it.
People who look riped have very specific diet and make sure they flush all water out from Under their skin. This isn't really sustainable for long for most, and your whole life has to revovle around your abs.
and then, you have the thing that your body needs to keep like 8-10 pounds of fat minimum to function, closer to twice that to function optimally, that 15-20 pounds of fat is 10-13 % on you, but if you were much more muscular, that same amount of fat would put you in the 8-10% range which is where the very nice ab definition appears. Plus, your muscle would be bigger so they would peak out more and thus appear even trhough the subcutaneous fluid.

Insilicio
01-29-2015, 11:15 AM
I was 92kg at 6'4" a bit skinny fat. Started bulking some while ago and looking much better now 10kg heavier (22lbs). Fuller chest/arms, got quite some compliments from people. Currently at 102kg and still not feeling too fat. Was cutting before and felt much worse with my looks. Just trust the process and bulk. It isnt always easy so thats why I hired a coach to keep me on track. Great investment so far.

Hamachi12
01-29-2015, 04:48 PM
Not if he does things correctly, guessing OP is weak as hell. Keep dietary fat to required minimums, don't have excessive surplus, and follow correct programming and there won't be any negative body composition changes, especially as a novice. He's thin, not fat, he isn't impressing anyone and needs to forget the idea of abs for a couple years, he isn't going to get any girls from being a twink. When he has a muscle base he can then worry about dropping to a lean level since he is a normal guy with no real end goal in sight, we are NOT bodybuilders
What do I do?

I've been eating. I've been eating cereal, chicken, whey protein shakes, gummy products (bears, worms, sour, etc), chocolate milk. There have been no changes. So a question to you, is if I truly work on diet and I keep it very healthy, only splurging on a bag of gummy bears 1-2x a week, will i notice a difference? If I continue on my workouts, and just change diet, what changes will i expect, even when I'm eating at a surplus of calories?

I'm not terribly weak (weak, but not as weak as people think)

seated row - 105 lb (total)
lateral raises - 50 lb (total)
incline chest press w db - 40 lb (per db)
decline press - 60 lb (total)
pec flyers - 100 lb (total)
mid rows - 170 lb (total)
(above is example, other workout exercises are included)
thats my upper body, as I'm more focused on that.
I know what you mean, that can happen, especially if you go buts on a bulk as a beginner and "eat big to get big". I've done that.

But done right, even adding a small amount of fat, along with significant amounts of muscle, will have you looking and feeling better than before. I've done that too.

This fat-phobia beginners have is understandable, but it's not always a reason to just continue endless cutting. Get rid of the ureasonable phobia instead.
So what do I do? So a question to you, is if I truly work on diet and I keep it very healthy, only splurging on a bag of gummy bears 1-2x a week, will i notice a difference? . I just want an understanding on why I should bulk, when it will just cause more fat gain and make my body look even worse. If I continue on my workouts, and just change diet, what changes will i expect, even when I'm eating at a surplus of calories?
eat and lift.
So just eat, anything? Chicken, gummy bears, steak, potatoes, cereal, milk, whey protein shakes, chocolate milk, etc.?

Cause thats what I've been doing.





***********
I've been told, eat and lift. I've been told that when you're a teenager you donthave to have a HUGE concern on diet, just make sure you're getting your protein in, and thats exactly what I've been doing. But I haven't noticed a noticeable difference. My upper body routine is really good, and it hits all points of the chest and back and tris and abs.

Serpentarius
01-29-2015, 05:37 PM
Id drop all the isolations and focus on getting overall tonnage up with compound movement, you really need to not worry about being lean (OP) at all and wait a year or so until you get your weight up.

I know you probably want to do your own thing but it wont work without correct programming, and periodization. Those exercises may seem fine but there is no overload and you wont be able to add much weight to isolation fluff movements, do you see yourself doing lateral raises with 150 lbs? Need to choose movements that will be able to be used for overload indefinitely without violent cheating etc...

If you cannot add weight to things, you will NOT get stronger and bigger. You cannot also just keep adding volume, because what....are you going to be in the gym for 2 hours trying to do arms? Waste of time and resources.

Questions to ask yourself:

1. am i progressing in lifts in a realistic manner?
2. is what im doing, working?
3. am i putting in enough effort?
4. am i overstressed that it affects my performance?
5. am i injured and cannot progress because of that?

Ok while "diet" is *important*, its only important in the sense of getting a variety of food and getting your requirements, this is VERY loose. It mainly implies to closet undereaters, those with extremely bad food choices (capping at 40g protein a day) Yes eat those gummy bears and stuff, there is nothing wrong with it, if you dont get enough protein or fat etc for a day or two it wont matter, its when things string together for long periods that you get diminished returns. Most of the time the stuff is all in your (not you specifically) head, such as needing food before working out or *needing* a pre workout or all that jazz.


For a natural lifter, drop all the accessory work, do compounds, do training specific assistance work. Focus on getting your numbers higher, size will follow according to your genes.

lastly dont believe fake nattys who are xbox huge who do brosplits and leave out the fact they are on drugs with anecdotal evidence of what worked for them.

I would go back and do ice cream fitness 5x5 and add in calves.

TanneFitness
01-30-2015, 01:16 AM
Try to bulk for some time and build some relief, then you have to see whats happening next..

Hamachi12
01-30-2015, 01:44 AM
Id drop all the isolations and focus on getting overall tonnage up with compound movement, you really need to not worry about being lean (OP) at all and wait a year or so until you get your weight up.

I know you probably want to do your own thing but it wont work without correct programming, and periodization. Those exercises may seem fine but there is no overload and you wont be able to add much weight to isolation fluff movements, do you see yourself doing lateral raises with 150 lbs? Need to choose movements that will be able to be used for overload indefinitely without violent cheating etc...

If you cannot add weight to things, you will NOT get stronger and bigger. You cannot also just keep adding volume, because what....are you going to be in the gym for 2 hours trying to do arms? Waste of time and resources.

Questions to ask yourself:

1. am i progressing in lifts in a realistic manner?
2. is what im doing, working?
3. am i putting in enough effort?
4. am i overstressed that it affects my performance?
5. am i injured and cannot progress because of that?

Ok while "diet" is *important*, its only important in the sense of getting a variety of food and getting your requirements, this is VERY loose. It mainly implies to closet undereaters, those with extremely bad food choices (capping at 40g protein a day) Yes eat those gummy bears and stuff, there is nothing wrong with it, if you dont get enough protein or fat etc for a day or two it wont matter, its when things string together for long periods that you get diminished returns. Most of the time the stuff is all in your (not you specifically) head, such as needing food before working out or *needing* a pre workout or all that jazz.


For a natural lifter, drop all the accessory work, do compounds, do training specific assistance work. Focus on getting your numbers higher, size will follow according to your genes.

lastly dont believe fake nattys who are xbox huge who do brosplits and leave out the fact they are on drugs with anecdotal evidence of what worked for them.

I would go back and do ice cream fitness 5x5 and add in calves.

I always add weight. Typically 2.5 lb. per side or a total of 5 lb.

There are some movements that I cannot do, simply because its too painful. My knees in particular are very weak, and I'm always having to accommodate my wrist and elbows. Basically most of my joints.

Sometimes, I simply cannot perform a certain exercise because i have added so much weight. Its weird, because say my bench press is at 125 lb, if i add a simple 5 lb or so, I sometimes cannot perform that extra 5 lb exercise.

In cases like that I always go back in weight, by around 40-30%, and just restart.

Bench press in particular is an exercise that is difficult, so can't i just do my chest routine in turn for the bench press.

InsaneBold
01-30-2015, 06:21 AM
bulk to 180lbs then cut

barbariancase
01-30-2015, 08:39 AM
bulk for sure, the fat will melt off as you gain mass, but don't dirty bulk. But if fat really bothers you and you just want it gone you could prob get it done in 2-3 weeks of strict dieting and then start your bulking.

gbullock32
01-30-2015, 08:51 AM
Just saying- OP you should seek help from a professional specializing in body image disorders- you have been told numerous times in various areas of this forum you need to gain weight. No one will suggest anything else to you, you are seeking affirmation that will not come.

biggoron
01-30-2015, 08:56 AM
you need to gain weight.

this applies to you too

gbullock32
01-30-2015, 08:57 AM
this applies to you tooI am in no way trying to lose weight; bulking right now.

Serpentarius
01-30-2015, 04:01 PM
I always add weight. Typically 2.5 lb. per side or a total of 5 lb.

There are some movements that I cannot do, simply because its too painful. My knees in particular are very weak, and I'm always having to accommodate my wrist and elbows. Basically most of my joints.

Sometimes, I simply cannot perform a certain exercise because i have added so much weight. Its weird, because say my bench press is at 125 lb, if i add a simple 5 lb or so, I sometimes cannot perform that extra 5 lb exercise.

In cases like that I always go back in weight, by around 40-30%, and just restart.

Bench press in particular is an exercise that is difficult, so can't i just do my chest routine in turn for the bench press.

Right, but when do you add weight? Just when you can complete X reps? You cant just do that because you would be assuming you would be able to handle the next 5 lbs. Sure you can do it if you have a decent sized frame but you have small wrists and bones so thats just not going to happen. You cant be gaining weight if your avi is current because there really isnt any mass, so you need to increase weight as you wont build muscle out of thin air. Your knees are probably just weak because like most young guys, they say they hurt because they do hurt, because they are weak. Get them stronger. Keep doing it until it doesnt hurt properly.
Stop adding weight immediately, increase when you are in a surplus and when you can handle the weight, im guessing you are doing grinders and then adding weight killing your CNS.
While there is no correct way to deload weight, you ARE doing it incorrectly.
Your chest routine clearly sucks, you shouldnt have one, you should have an entire body routine to get your entire body stronger, squat and deadlift to get your bench up. You cant just do whatever and get stronger.

EjnarKolinkar
01-30-2015, 07:05 PM
8-12 months unless not natural...3 is enough to do nothing honestly.


QFT

Starting out training you do what you can with good programming and train steady. It's not easy, it takes time. You can do it. I could not get the bar to parallel with a squat after I tooled myself dieting with horrible training. So what, I did not quit and it's certain I am nothing special, if I can do it you can do it.

Want to change? Get in the gym regular, keep it steady, eat to support training and growth..... steady. You want the reward, and none of the years of work? Sorry it does not happen. Dues have to be paid. If you hate what you see in the mirror so much, guess what? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Back away from the mirror, quit picking at yourselves.