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View Full Version : Struggling with squats vs Bench on SL 5x5



PiperBill
12-27-2014, 05:30 AM
I am just about to start week 6 on Stronglifts 5x5 and today my bench press and squat working weights were both 70 kg. I still have a lot left in the tank after the 5x5 bench and I am not yet up to my max in that, but I am pretty wiped out after 5x5 squats and struggled to get the last 2 sets in today. I find it hardest to get out of the hole in the squat.

I am constantly thinking about form on the squat and checking everything in the warmup lifts. I squat low bar and use a belt on the working weights.

I think it's strange because I tore a rotator cuff 9 months ago doing bench. I am still kind of recovering from that and listening closely to what my shoulder is telling me in the bench. Don't want to go there again!

Does this just show that I am pissweak in my legs or could there be another explanation? I don't have skinny legs at all and I am well proportioned/balanced between upper and lower body.

Bill

Plateauplower
12-27-2014, 05:52 AM
While you should normally be able to squat more than you bench, squats are more taxing overall in terms of fatigue. You are working larger muscles and there are many more stabilizer muscles involved. Just keep with the progression and put more effort into your squat and it will likely continue to progress when bench stalls. I don't think you should worry about specific sticking points until you are a little more advanced, but things like box squats can help build strength out of the hole. For now just try to squat like a savage and get your reps while maintaining your form.

jdoyle7
12-27-2014, 07:14 AM
You're pushing the weight of your body with squats also so really you are doing more than bench. One weak point can seriously hold you back. My lower back will get to failure a long time before my legs do so I've been training lower back and have seen an improvement. Figure out what muscle is weak and train that with supplemental lifts. For me it is back extensions, pull throughs, and dead lifts along with ab work.

Maverick2015
12-27-2014, 08:36 AM
I have a few questions. First, how much do you weigh? Second, what were your starting weights for the program? I am surprised your bench and squats are at the same weight. Third, how much rest are you taking between sets?

You say you struggled to get the last 2 sets in, but you didn't fail. You should realize there is a difference. So great job. If you are struggling, then you should be taking the full 3 minutes between those last sets. You might be getting to the point where you plateau and miss reps. If you miss reps then you need to take 5 minutes after the missed set. If you miss reps for 3 workouts in a row then you will need to deload. Plateaus are expected and you will get through them.

humanbeatbox7
12-27-2014, 09:10 AM
I am just about to start week 6 on Stronglifts 5x5 and today my bench press and squat working weights were both 70 kg. I still have a lot left in the tank after the 5x5 bench and I am not yet up to my max in that, but I am pretty wiped out after 5x5 squats and struggled to get the last 2 sets in today. I find it hardest to get out of the hole in the squat.

I am constantly thinking about form on the squat and checking everything in the warmup lifts. I squat low bar and use a belt on the working weights.

I think it's strange because I tore a rotator cuff 9 months ago doing bench. I am still kind of recovering from that and listening closely to what my shoulder is telling me in the bench. Don't want to go there again!

Does this just show that I am pissweak in my legs or could there be another explanation? I don't have skinny legs at all and I am well proportioned/balanced between upper and lower body.

Bill

I do the same routine and whats been helping me is hip stretches I got off "yo elliot" on youtube. I also squat down during commercial breaks once or twice a night. I squat very low during stretch periods. Yesterday I had a great workout but today my knees and lower back demands rest. Im only on week 4. Lets stay in touch on this. I need the feedback as well. I love this 5x5. I slipped in a farmers carry in my routine. Not suppose to do that but I like it. I think Maverick2015 hit the nail on the head.

mikemodjeski7
12-27-2014, 09:27 AM
I'm was up to week 11 on SL 5x5 before a setback, but I don't remember Bench and squat weight being the same. I do remember the bench weight being very easy compared to the squat. After a few sessions I added 25lbs to my bench weight as the bench weight was not coming into a challenging weight as the other lifts were.

Jtbny
12-27-2014, 10:29 AM
I have noticed that there a quite a few people who are better benchers than squatters. Mostly because if anything is going to get neglected it's leg day :rolleyes: and if legs are done the movements aren't very challenging.

Anyhow, the best way to get better at squatting is to keep squatting. I would avoid all the "tricks" at this point and just focus on your form and depth and keep getting under the bar. For most it's just a matter of getting stronger.

rmorris40
12-27-2014, 10:44 AM
Same here, OP, my squats are the same as my bench. My working weight is 155 for both - next week is test week and I should pass and go to 175, but I expect to be there two cycles(on beginner's All Pro, currently cycle 4). Every time I increase weight I have so much trouble getting hip crease below knee.

I'm 6 foot 182 pounds with long, skinny legs. I've found having a wider stance and toes pointed slightly out helps me. I also use my warm up sets to go deep and work on flexibility, but my working weight is still parallel. Chest comes very easy for me, but I have a very long road ahead of me on squats.

I was told my squat should be 1.5 times my bench. I have no idea how true that is or not, but there is absolutely no way I could squat that much right now. I'll just keep pushing along, and we'll just see where I eventually land!

PiperBill
12-28-2014, 02:05 AM
I have a few questions. First, how much do you weigh? Second, what were your starting weights for the program? I am surprised your bench and squats are at the same weight. Third, how much rest are you taking between sets?



I started bench at 50kg and squat at 32.5 kg. Anything lower than that felt like a total waiste of time. I have been lifting about 18 months before SL 5x5 and I could bench 95kg no probs. I have never done squats consistantly and over time. I am 84kg (184lbs) with 24% bf. My weight has gone up since I started 5x5 but BF has stayed the same. Rest between sets is something I need to look at. I just rest until I feel I can do the next set but it's probably not more than a minute or two.

It might be form related too. It's very easy to make small form or breathing mistakes when it feels real heavy. Also very much a mindset issue too. No point me going into the gym and thinking "This is going to be tough" but some days I am so fatigued from my day job. No way I can allow mysef to skip a workout day though :-)

My 24 year old son, who also lifts a lot, just suggested I grow some gonads.... Cheeky rug rat! :-)


Bill

mtpockets
12-28-2014, 03:59 AM
My 24 year old son, who also lifts a lot, just suggested I grow some gonads....


Bill

or at least stop the excuses

PiperBill
12-28-2014, 04:54 AM
or at least stop the excuses

Valid point for sure but after todays workout I see I have to change something before I injure myself. I will lose my job if I have to take more time off due to training injuries. It's my choice. I made a vid and will post a new thread asking for a form check.

This is the vid.

http://youtu.be/JLxnbY9rR5c

Bill

Maverick2015
12-28-2014, 09:26 AM
Valid point for sure but after todays workout I see I have to change something before I injure myself. I will lose my job if I have to take more time off due to training injuries. It's my choice. I made a vid and will post a new thread asking for a form check.

This is the vid.

http://youtu.be/JLxnbY9rR5c

Bill
Are you looking at a mirror? Your head seems to be looking up the whole time instead of keeping your neck straight. Also the mirror is a distraction and you can't see yourself from the side anyway. Good idea with the video. I only took a quick look, but others will be better at critiquing anyway. See if you can take another video looking straight from the side. This one is good too, but the side one gives a better idea of the path the bar takes.

RestoringTally
12-28-2014, 08:04 PM
Valid point for sure but after todays workout I see I have to change something before I injure myself. I will lose my job if I have to take more time off due to training injuries. It's my choice. I made a vid and will post a new thread asking for a form check.

This is the vid.

http://youtu.be/JLxnbY9rR5c

Bill

JLxnbY9rR5c

Embedded video for you.

You are not going low enough. You are far from getting parallel.

I suggest you reset by lowering the weight and working on form. SL starts out with low weights so that you have a chance to dial in your form. Keep your ego in check and follow the program.

I am a big fan of box squats. My form improved a lot with box squats. Doing them forced me to learn how sit back more and keep my knees from going too far forward. With a properly set squat box you can also be assured of going parallel or a bit lower.

Shoot a video from the side as Maverick suggested. It is difficult to tell with the angle of the camera, but your knees may be going too far forward.

PiperBill
12-29-2014, 02:17 AM
You are not going low enough. You are far from getting parallel.
.

Thanks. I know I am not getting low enough but I have been getting groin pain the last few squat days and it was bad yesterday. I do need to take a few steps back, back off the weight, and focus on correct form. I had changed from high to low bar a couple of weeks ago and "thought" it was going ok... Obviously not the case.

I am taking a week off from squating to try to figure out why the pain and let it settle. Doing some adductor stretches and lots of foam rolling.

I also think I will swap one of the squat days for deadlifts. Deadlifts seem to be a bit of an afterthought on SL 5x5. Always at the end of the session, after squatting, and only twice in week A and once in week B. It must surely be better to squat and deadlift twice a week.

For me (maybe because of my age) squatting three time a week with increasing weights every time leaves too little time for recovery.

Bill

tsoden
12-29-2014, 05:42 AM
Thanks. I know I am not getting low enough but I have been getting groin pain the last few squat days and it was bad yesterday. I do need to take a few steps back, back off the weight, and focus on correct form. I had changed from high to low bar a couple of weeks ago and "thought" it was going ok... Obviously not the case.

I am taking a week off from squating to try to figure out why the pain and let it settle. Doing some adductor stretches and lots of foam rolling.

I also think I will swap one of the squat days for deadlifts. Deadlifts seem to be a bit of an afterthought on SL 5x5. Always at the end of the session, after squatting, and only twice in week A and once in week B. It must surely be better to squat and deadlift twice a week.

For me (maybe because of my age) squatting three time a week with increasing weights every time leaves too little time for recovery.

Bill

I did the 12+ weeks of SL 5x5 years ago and the best thing I ever did was start at GROUND ZERO. The reason why you start at ground zero is to give yourself sufficient time to work on your form. Later down the road when things get tough, your form will help get you through these challenges. For instance, if you are not going parallel with your squats, then you are not doing it right and need to drop the weight immediately and work with weight that allows for you to get er down.

Just my $0.02, but people really need to stop taking shortcuts with this program because in the end you will be no further ahead.

PiperBill
12-29-2014, 07:56 AM
Just my $0.02, but people really need to stop taking shortcuts with this program because in the end you will be no further ahead.

I agree it was a mistake to start squating with 30kg instead of 20kg but hey.. I am trying to fix this now and the squat is the only part I am having trouble with. Regardless of that. FOR ME the one day rest between squating combined with the 5 lb increase each time IS too much. If the SL 5x5 was the only physical work I was doing then it would have been possible but I have a tough, heavy and intense day job that also costs a lot physically.

I will fix this and make good gains in strength but it must be at a slower pace than the standard program.

I am not looking for negative comments. My gym is unmanned for the most part so places like this forum and Youtube are my go to places for insight.


Bill

tsoden
12-29-2014, 08:13 AM
I agree it was a mistake to start squating with 30kg instead of 20kg but hey.. I am trying to fix this now and the squat is the only part I am having trouble with. Regardless of that. FOR ME the one day rest between squating combined with the 5 lb increase each time IS too much. If the SL 5x5 was the only physical work I was doing then it would have been possible but I have a tough, heavy and intense day job that also costs a lot physically.

I will fix this and make good gains in strength but it must be at a slower pace than the standard program.

I am not looking for negative comments. My gym is unmanned for the most part so places like this forum and Youtube are my go to places for insight.


Bill

I was not trying to be negative about this... just going off of my experience. Will agree though with most that your squat should be your heaviest lift...

RestoringTally
12-29-2014, 03:39 PM
Thanks. I know I am not getting low enough but I have been getting groin pain the last few squat days and it was bad yesterday. I do need to take a few steps back, back off the weight, and focus on correct form. I had changed from high to low bar a couple of weeks ago and "thought" it was going ok... Obviously not the case.

I am taking a week off from squating to try to figure out why the pain and let it settle. Doing some adductor stretches and lots of foam rolling.

I also think I will swap one of the squat days for deadlifts. Deadlifts seem to be a bit of an afterthought on SL 5x5. Always at the end of the session, after squatting, and only twice in week A and once in week B. It must surely be better to squat and deadlift twice a week.

For me (maybe because of my age) squatting three time a week with increasing weights every time leaves too little time for recovery.

Bill

A good rule of thumb is "if there is pain, don't do it." You definitely need to rest until the groin pain goes away. I would also see a doctor to make sure it is not a hernia in the making.

Many find deadlifts taxing, so every other workout is not a bad frequency. Many see good progress with programs that do deadlifts only once a week.

If you are going to do StrongLifts, then do it as it is written. If you want to modify the program, then you are not doing StrongLifts. By changing the program you are taking control of your own programming. Your success will depend upon your knowledge and expertise. Unless you are an advanced lifter it is not a good idea to deviate from an established and tested program.

If you do not believe StrongLifts is properly programmed for you, you would be better off finding another program instead of modifying StrongLifts.

SteveWright1
12-29-2014, 04:21 PM
Hey Bill

may not have as much experience as others on this thread, but do have over 1 year of consistent and regular training under my belt and as such some experience that may be relevant to you

over the course of the last 14 months or so I have done
Allpro, Stronglifts 5 x 5 and 5/3/1

5 x 5 - I did 15 or 16 weeks on that programme and did start empty bar for Squat, Bench and OHP and 95lb on deadlifts
I found it very hard going- 3 heavy compounds in 1 session meant that I found myself concerned with what was coming next rather than what I was doing at the time ( worried about the deadlift weight, meant I lacked focus on the squats I was supposed to be doing)

5/3/1 for which I have now accumulated over 30 weeks in total is a better format for me personally
the 4 main compounds , Squat, Deadlift, Bench and Military press - are all there ( plus accessories)
the main difference being on Squat day - Squats are your main focus and you do no have to OHP, Bench or Deadlift on same day ( you can if you want to)

if you combine the main programme with the Big But Boring accessory (BBB) this gives you the chance to do 5 sets of 10 reps at 50% of your single rep max ( you could do 55 or 60 etc etc , you decide)
along with warm ups and work sets- of which only 1 set is done at maximum weight for the day (AMRAP set , as many reps as possible) you can get 70- 80 reps of squat in a single session
the BBB sets of 10 are great opportunity to focus on form, improve your depth etc at a much lower weight

the mental hurdle of needing to achieve 5 sets of 5 at a weight 5lb greater than the last sessions 5 x 5 - is not there on 5/3/1
with 5/3/1 the 1st time you meet a new weight , you only need to rep it once ( more is better , it will be the AMRAP set on 1+ day after all, but 1 rep is enough for a pass and weight increase next cycle, when that same weight, will be the weight needed for 3+ day and a new weight 10lb heavier will be the target on 1+ day)

5/3/1 is a slower progression, and if I was 2 decades younger, then 5 x 5 would probably be a better option for me in terms of gaining strength at a faster pace

but 5/3/1 has allowed me to increase my squat slowly and steadily and has done so at a pace my body and mind has coped with much better than it did with 5 x 5

it has also allowed me to add accessories that I feel have benefitted my main lifts and to that extent on squat day for example, Leg curls are the main suggested accessory, to which I have added Leg extensions and also recently Leg press
thus my legs are now getting more focused work than they did with the 5 x 5 format , which due to the amount of reps needed at max weight for any given day, left me with no fuel in the tank to consider extra or in fact any accessory work

also , squatting once per week, did not prevent me doing the 3 weeks of Smolov Jr in September this year
I found I was able to adjust to the increased frequency of squatting 4 times per week, even though for 20 plus weeks prior to that I had only squatted once per week.

certainly worth considering in my opinion, you may find you benefit from being able to focus on squatting on squat day without the thoughts of how much you need to bench next or deadlift later etc

PiperBill
12-30-2014, 07:41 AM
Hey Bill

may not have as much experience as others on this thread, but do have over 1 year of consistent and regular training under my belt and as such some experience that may be relevant to you.....


Thanks! This really is helpfull. Is there a webpage with details of the 5/3/1 program. I will continue on SL 5x5 for now but not increase the weight on the Wednesday workout so I will be advancing at 5kg per week instead of 7.5kg. I am just off to the gym now but I am only going to squat with the bar today and ask someone to check me. I see from the video that I am doing several things wrong. From next workout I will drop the weight to where I can squat deep and still get up without groin pain. That might be very light but it's best to stay on the safe side for now.

Today at work I had to stack 30kg cases of meat onto plallets all day. 300 cases in all at breakneck tempo. So I have already lifted 9 tons before even hitting the gym.

Bill

tsoden
12-30-2014, 08:21 AM
Thanks! This really is helpfull. Is there a webpage with details of the 5/3/1 program. I will continue on SL 5x5 for now but not increase the weight on the Wednesday workout so I will be advancing at 5kg per week instead of 7.5kg. I am just off to the gym now but I am only going to squat with the bar today and ask someone to check me. I see from the video that I am doing several things wrong. From next workout I will drop the weight to where I can squat deep and still get up without groin pain. That might be very light but it's best to stay on the safe side for now.

Today at work I had to stack 30kg cases of meat onto plallets all day. 300 cases in all at breakneck tempo. So I have already lifted 9 tons before even hitting the gym.

Bill

You might also consider dropping back 10%. I think the plan states that after 3 failed sessions (?) at the same weight, to drop 10% and work back up.

I am curious... if you move a lot of weight for your job, how do you muster the strength to do even more strength training? I think that would put me out of commission :)

Maverick2015
12-30-2014, 09:30 AM
Hey Bill

may not have as much experience as others on this thread, but do have over 1 year of consistent and regular training under my belt and as such some experience that may be relevant to you

over the course of the last 14 months or so I have done
Allpro, Stronglifts 5 x 5 and 5/3/1
What was your experience with AllPro?

Bill, do you do the warm up sets? The warm up sets will also help you with form since you start with 2x5 bar weight and then move up from there (with a 3x5 and 2x5 at progressively higher weight) before your normal 5x5. You can really focus on form and getting low during the warm up.

hammerfelt
12-30-2014, 09:55 AM
Allow yourself to heal.

Start over and lose the belt.

PiperBill
12-30-2014, 10:06 AM
I am curious... if you move a lot of weight for your job, how do you muster the strength to do even more strength training? I think that would put me out of commission :)

Some weeks I have to juggle the workout days around. It's not always so heavy at work but at it's worst I am on the sofa from when I get home and until I go to bed. I have had an office job before and hated the sitting still all day. I got real fat too! :-)

Bill

PiperBill
12-30-2014, 10:12 AM
What was your experience with AllPro?

Bill, do you do the warm up sets?

Yes I do them. No way I could go straight to the working sets without gradually building up to them.

Bill

tsoden
12-30-2014, 11:22 AM
Allow yourself to heal.

Start over and lose the belt.

+1

If you require a belt you are probably not using correct form. :)

fedewab2
12-30-2014, 02:11 PM
Johnny Candito’s take on lifting with a belt.

www youtube.com/watch?v=yJgsXW_hSaQ

You will have to fix the link as I cannot post intact links.

OnsightRepair
12-30-2014, 02:51 PM
Struggling at times is normal. You are getting stronger. That's the whole point of it....

I found that at 185 pound squat, my form was so bad that I repeated 185 and it helped a lot. Got me the rest of the way to 225, where I repeated again. I did not fail either time, but because my form was poor and I was struggling a bit, I decided to repeat.

Don't be afraid of doing the same weight twice once in awhile. Presumably, working out is becoming part of your life as opposed to a 12 week plan. In a year will it make any difference? In two years? Four?

SteveWright1
12-30-2014, 03:06 PM
Thanks! This really is helpfull. Is there a webpage with details of the 5/3/1 program. I will continue on SL 5x5 for now but not increase the weight on the Wednesday workout so I will be advancing at 5kg per week instead of 7.5kg. I am just off to the gym now but I am only going to squat with the bar today and ask someone to check me. I see from the video that I am doing several things wrong. From next workout I will drop the weight to where I can squat deep and still get up without groin pain. That might be very light but it's best to stay on the safe side for now.

Today at work I had to stack 30kg cases of meat onto plallets all day. 300 cases in all at breakneck tempo. So I have already lifted 9 tons before even hitting the gym.

Bill

sounds like your occupation gives you plenty of opportunity to strength train already Bill
5/3/1 - There is a book or E book but I can attach the below link which tells you something about the format and calculates the weights you would start with based on existing 1 rep max

http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator

SteveWright1
12-30-2014, 03:12 PM
What was your experience with AllPro?

Bill, do you do the warm up sets? The warm up sets will also help you with form since you start with 2x5 bar weight and then move up from there (with a 3x5 and 2x5 at progressively higher weight) before your normal 5x5. You can really focus on form and getting low during the warm up.

Hi Maverick2015
I enjoyed it to start with, but as it was done during my very early days of training when I was keen to progress as fast as possible ( ignorance is bliss) the appeal of 5 x 5 with each session having weight increased was greater and seemed to me to offer more advantages than Allpro in which there is heavy, medium and light days

PiperBill
01-01-2015, 08:24 AM
I am working on getting good form under the guidance of a more experienced lifter now. BUT. Went to the docs a few days ago and he told me the groin pain I have is probably a ligament strain and to lay off squats or anything else that triggers the pain.

So that’s the end of SL 5x5 for me for a while. I am starting on Wendlers 531 from today. I bought the book. The lifts are the same as SL 5x5 and squats are only once a week instead of 3 times a week on SL 5x5. I can squat light and/or do some leg presses (no groin pain there) until I heal.

SL 5x5 has not been a waste of time. I tried some chin ups today for the first time in over 6 weeks. Last I tried I only managed 1 with chin over the bar and 2 partials. Today I did 5, 5, 4, 3 with chin over the bar. That’s a big gain in strength for me.

Bill

Flounderbout
01-01-2015, 01:26 PM
So this thread started out asking why your squats are not up to scratch compared to your bench. And then you concluded the thread by deciding to squat less.

That is your answer right there.

PiperBill
01-01-2015, 01:56 PM
So this thread started out asking why your squats are not up to scratch compared to your bench. And then you concluded the thread by deciding to squat less.
That is your answer right there.

So is the cure for groin strain to squat more?

Flounderbout
01-01-2015, 02:45 PM
So is the cure for groin strain to squat more?

Obviously not. That misses the point as well you know. The point is that you have changed from a beginner's squat-based program (a good one) to an intermediate/advanced program (also a good one) that has much less squatting. This is obviously not going to resolve your relative weakness in the squat. On the contrary, it is going to exacerbate it.

If you really want to address your squat (at your numbers, where overload is basically out of the question), then you need to squat more, and squat correctly. Like on the 5x5 program that you have just quit.

As I see it you have had two problems.

The first is that you have had no-one to teach you to squat. That is not your fault. Post many more videos, regularly, and this should not be a problem, since there are a lot of people around who can advise you on form. Lots of us have learnt to squat tolerably from nothing more than advice in here and video feedback.

The second is that instead of running the program, you thought you knew better, and as a result have not advanced, and have not got decent form. That is your fault. I suspect that form issues are why you find recovery difficult and why you keep picking up injuries. It is difficult to tell much from the video since as you say you were already protecting an injury so weren't anyway near to depth. But recovery is much tougher from a session of horrible squats than it is from a tough session of clean squats at the same weight.

So the answer to the original question "why do my squats suck compared to my bench?" is the usual one - years of neglect have left your legs weak and it is genuinely hard to get your squat form right whilst progressing. But the answer to "how do I solve it?" is IMHO definitely not "go to a program that cuts my squatting down a lot". It is sort out your form, then squat moar (once you have resolved your injury issues, obviously - that goes without saying and is not program related anyway).

PiperBill
01-01-2015, 10:23 PM
Obviously not. That misses the point as well you know. The point is that you have changed from a beginner's squat-based program (a good one) to an intermediate/advanced program (also a good one) that has much less squatting. .

I see your point and I appreciate you taking the time to respond and advise. However Wendlers 531 can also be run as a noob program. There is a whole chapter in his book about it. It's basically a matter of doing the main lifts twice a week. I will be squating light as a warm up every workout day until I am reletively pain free and my form improves. Yes the two are probably related. I hope so anyway.

I certainly will sort out my squat and there is nothing stopping me from going back to SL 5x5 exactly where I left off, but for now, the 531 setup feels like a better, safer option that keeps me in the gym and with good progression.

I am happy and more motivated about the change.


Bill

bob1776
01-02-2015, 02:34 PM
Here's the single best how-to vid on squating you're going to find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo


....But, he leaves out the mobility details, covered by Mr Candito:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNqKn6axcSM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VGSjFLodo


but while doing all of the above, you'll probably also have to do this sort of thing several times a day too:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4O3WAOc8kE


And, if you're anything like me, going deep is going to be very depressing reality check of your strength. I was happily half squatting 265LBs for reps and thought I was strong. But 95LBs was a struggle if I was going deep. It will take a while, but fixing it now is better than continuing to practice what is already hurting you. And FWIW, I never liked SL myself, you're better off with 531

Flounderbout
01-03-2015, 01:09 AM
...you're better off with 531

Because...?

PiperBill
01-03-2015, 02:52 AM
Because...?

Oh Come on! I am in the gym 4 days a week. I am doing heavy lifts with the 5 basic compound excersises. The weight are progessing at a steady pace and I am getting stronger. I am having some issues with one lift and am working on fixing that. I am enjoying it all.

What is the problem?

Bill

mtpockets
01-03-2015, 03:48 AM
If you wanna be a better berry picker, try picking more berries....


It's not rocket surgery.....







Apply KISS method...

Squat more.....

SteveWright1
01-03-2015, 04:27 AM
now, the 531 setup feels like a better, safer option that keeps me in the gym and with good progression.

I am happy and more motivated about the change.


Bill

That is exactly how I felt when I made the change over Bill
and 40+ weeks later, I still feel the same way

I told myself the same thing at the time "5 x 5 will always be there should I want to revisit it in the future"
it is still there and maybe one day I will decide to try it again
but for now, having a day to focus on the 4 main compounds seperately, is keeping me hitting the gym 4 days per week with the same enthusiasm as I had over 1 year ago, when I started lifting

good luck with your training Bill

I suggest the BBB accessory, to get some volume squats at lower weights, work on form, get some vids made and someone who knows how to squat properly can offer good advice ( that will not be me LOL?)


hope it works out for you and your numbers increase inline with your goals/ ambitions

Flounderbout
01-03-2015, 04:28 AM
The thread is about having a relatively weak squat. The solution to that is to squat more, not less.
I was interested why someone would suggest 531 which involves a lot less squatting, in that context.
There is no 'problem' with 531 as such (save that people mostly start it too early when they would be better off with a quicker progression programming). But it plainly doesnt help with the problem that you asked for assistance with by this thread. IMO.

SteveWright1
01-03-2015, 04:41 AM
The thread is about having a relatively weak squat. The solution to that is to squat more, not less.
I was interested why someone would suggest 531 which involves a lot less squatting, in that context.
There is no 'problem' with 531 as such (save that people mostly start it too early when they would be better off with a quicker progression programming). But it plainly doesnt help with the problem that you asked for assistance with by this thread. IMO.

Should I get my coat?

LOL?

fontyyy
01-03-2015, 04:47 AM
5x5 routines can be very fatiguing, I've found that I progress better on allpro's beginner routine even though the overall volume for heavy lifts is considerably lower.

PiperBill
01-03-2015, 06:42 AM
It's not rocket surgery.....


It's probaly "brain science" :-)

PiperBill
01-03-2015, 06:56 AM
The thread is about having a relatively weak squat. The solution to that is to squat more, not less. .

That's true but the situation has been a bit more dynamic than that. I need to squat more but I don't dare do it until I figure out what is giving me groin pain. In the meantime I am squating light (max 40kg) 3 - 4 times a week and doing a lot of hip flexion and other stuff to assist mobility (thanks Bob1776).

Today I squated high bar with a band around my knees and pushing out against the band all the way. That actually helped a bit but there is still a stabbing pain in my left groin when I move a certain way.

Flounderbout
01-03-2015, 08:28 AM
If it's a thread about dealing with a groin injury it has nothing to do with either programming or squatting relative to other lifts. Obviously I misunderstood. Apologies.

Maverick2015
01-03-2015, 08:56 AM
If it's a thread about dealing with a groin injury it has nothing to do with either programming or squatting relative to other lifts. Obviously I misunderstood. Apologies.
It started about weaker squats, but then Bill unfortunately hurt his groin and had to figure out a routine that would work for him and allow him to not completely lose his progress in squats. So he went with 531 because then he would only have to squat once a week to protect himself while he recovers. The conversation changed in the middle of the thread.

Maverick2015
01-03-2015, 09:01 AM
Bill, FWIW, instead of doing 531, why not just continue with the 5x5 as outlined EXCEPT only squat once a week (or follow the 531 for squats only). That way everything else progresses at a better rate while you recover.

I know you are happy doing what you are doing, so I am not saying it is wrong. I just wanted to throw another option out there that you might not have considered.

PiperBill
01-03-2015, 09:45 AM
Bill, FWIW, instead of doing 531, why not just continue with the 5x5 as outlined EXCEPT only squat once a week (or follow the 531 for squats only).

I am looking at that too but there is something about the progression on 531 that feels better for me. Taking it to failure on the last set is something I missed on 5x5. I can do the main lifts in 531 twice a week or do other stuff that supports them.

The jury is out. Maybe I am just being a wuss but SL 5x5 is a tough program to follow.

Maverick2015
01-03-2015, 10:23 AM
I am looking at that too but there is something about the progression on 531 that feels better for me. Taking it to failure on the last set is something I missed on 5x5. I can do the main lifts in 531 twice a week or do other stuff that supports them.

The jury is out. Maybe I am just being a wuss but SL 5x5 is a tough program to follow.
How long did you do the 5x5 program?

PiperBill
01-03-2015, 11:23 AM
How long did you do the 5x5 program?

Only 7 weeks. When the squats started getting heavy (for me) my bad form showed through and I was getting the groin pain. Feels a bit pointless doing a program based on squating 3 times a week when I can't squat that much. Then again I might just be looking for an excuse to bail out.... Don't know my own mind on this just now.

I do know I had a great workout today on 531 deadlifts. Pulled a PR of 8 reps on the last set. Did chins, triceps and light squats as extras and even had energy left to go walking in the winter forest for an hour with my wife. On SL 5x5 I was pretty well wiped out after training.

Maverick2015
01-03-2015, 12:10 PM
Only 7 weeks. When the squats started getting heavy (for me) my bad form showed through and I was getting the groin pain. Feels a bit pointless doing a program based on squating 3 times a week when I can't squat that much. Then again I might just be looking for an excuse to bail out.... Don't know my own mind on this just now.

I do know I had a great workout today on 531 deadlifts. Pulled a PR of 8 reps on the last set. Did chins, triceps and light squats as extras and even had energy left to go walking in the winter forest for an hour with my wife. On SL 5x5 I was pretty well wiped out after training.
Glad its working out for you. Unless you are competing, it is better to be able to do activities like that than to do a more "optimal" program for progressing in strength.

Mojoke
01-03-2015, 01:03 PM
JLxnbY9rR5c

Embedded video for you.

You are not going low enough. You are far from getting parallel.

I suggest you reset by lowering the weight and working on form. SL starts out with low weights so that you have a chance to dial in your form. Keep your ego in check and follow the program.

I am a big fan of box squats. My form improved a lot with box squats. Doing them forced me to learn how sit back more and keep my knees from going too far forward. With a properly set squat box you can also be assured of going parallel or a bit lower.

Shoot a video from the side as Maverick suggested. It is difficult to tell with the angle of the camera, but your knees may be going too far forward.

You have indeed an issue with depth. I also find that your core is tilting forward too much.
Could be a mobility issue, stretching could help you to go deeper in the long run.

Another tip is, switch to zercher squats for a while. The bar placement will allow you to go deeper and reach paralell if you can't with normal squats. Keep it safe however, your lower back should never start to buckle in during the movement!

melDorado
01-04-2015, 01:03 PM
My squat is poor and I can't bench either bro, could be worse...

77Davis
01-04-2015, 06:32 PM
Oh Come on! I am in the gym 4 days a week. I am doing heavy lifts with the 5 basic compound excersises. The weight are progessing at a steady pace and I am getting stronger. I am having some issues with one lift and am working on fixing that. I am enjoying it all.

What is the problem?

Bill
Chiming in late, so only have skimmed through the thread to see where we're at. I just wanted to point out that there seems to be a mental block here. I am sensitive to your situation, but also believe you have what it takes to get past it.

I have GAD and panic disorder, so an elevated heart rate can trigger a fight/flight response, and that is something I don't want to go through at the gym in front of everyone, or passing out. Well, it's kind of though to workout without elevating your heart rate, so it is a battle a partake in 5 days out of 7. A battle I win each and every time.

On a more direct note, I went through something similar with squats. I told my trainer that I was physically incapable of doing them with good form due to a previous martial arts injury. The trainer was also sensitive, but noticed how well I did squats with a medicine ball held to my chest, and asked if I was willing to graduate to the bar. I agreed, and we progressed from there. After two months, I'm squatting 180, which isn't a whole lot, but it is more than I bench, and more importantly, I'm doing what I previously thought I couldn't.

The mind has such a powerful influence over the body.