PDA

View Full Version : Islamophobia and a Challenge to Bill Maher



TranceNRG
10-14-2014, 01:24 PM
Ms. Kumar tells Paul Jay that what Bill Maher said is a perfect example of Liberal Islamophobia
xKbw4dkGQGM

ONtop888
10-14-2014, 02:07 PM
I think it would be more constructive if the woman being interviewed addressed a particular "reactionary" interpretation, as she calls it, held by a large number of Muslims; namely, the belief that apostates should be executed.

That was the issue that Maher brought up specifically.

JonathanRhimes
10-14-2014, 02:29 PM
I think it would be more constructive if the woman being interviewed addressed a particular "reactionary" interpretation, as she calls it, held by a large number of Muslims; namely, the belief that apostates should be executed.

That was the issue that Maher brought up specifically.

That's just racist, sir. Reported for racism and bigotry.

Tekkendo
10-14-2014, 03:32 PM
There is no such thing as islamophobia, let along liberal islamophobia.

gachase21
10-14-2014, 03:38 PM
Who f'ing cares what bill maher thinks or says. Even in the rare event I agree with him - Still- idgaf

Apeus
10-14-2014, 03:59 PM
I don't have time to watch this video now, but I skipped around a few minutes and it did seem interesting. I heard a few things I agree with, and a few things I disagree with. I will definitely watch it when I have a chance.

I will say no I expect to disagree with it much more than I agree.

I hate the term Islamophobia.

tng83
10-14-2014, 04:12 PM
Dammit is it just my phone or something. For a week now my phone wont let me click on embeded YT vids. Touch the screen and nothing. Cleared cashe and defaults and still nothing.

BusterBunny
10-14-2014, 04:28 PM
I don't have time to watch this video now, but I skipped around a few minutes and it did seem interesting. I heard a few things I agree with, and a few things I disagree with. I will definitely watch it when I have a chance.

I will say no I expect to disagree with it much more than I agree.

I hate the term Islamophobia.

why do you hate the term? (srs, just wondering)

brighamw
10-14-2014, 04:48 PM
why do you hate the term? (srs, just wondering)

Because phobia implies a fear.

I think very few people fear islam/muslms, as much as they feel disgust, hate, etc...

IDK, just my observation...

Apeus
10-14-2014, 05:00 PM
Because phobia implies a fear.

I think very few people fear islam/muslms, as much as they feel disgust, hate, etc...

IDK, just my observation...

Well, to be honest the meaning of "phobia" as a suffix has changed to refer to a dislike, disgust, etc. in some cases.

My main problem with "Islamophobia" though is that it is considered a prejudice.

The definition of prejudice is a "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or fact."

So it can be used as a way to shut down any debate and legitimate criticism.


Now, I'm sure there are plenty of people in the world who are legitimately prejudice/racist against any ethnic person they assume to be Muslim based on physical characteristics.

If only those people were defined as "Islamophobic" then I would have no issue with the word.

The fact that it is used to describe people who have issues with Islam based on reason and evidence though, is a problem for me.

TranceNRG
10-14-2014, 09:43 PM
Because phobia implies a fear.

I think very few people fear islam/muslms, as much as they feel disgust, hate, etc...

IDK, just my observation...

In biology, phobia implies "hating." (hydrophilic vs. hydrophobic)

TranceNRG
10-14-2014, 09:45 PM
Well, to be honest the meaning of "phobia" as a suffix has changed to refer to a dislike, disgust, etc. in some cases.

My main problem with "Islamophobia" though is that it is considered a prejudice.

The definition of prejudice is a "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or fact."

So it can be used as a way to shut down any debate and legitimate criticism.


Now, I'm sure there are plenty of people in the world who are legitimately prejudice/racist against any ethnic person they assume to be Muslim based on physical characteristics.

If only those people were defined as "Islamophobic" then I would have no issue with the word.

The fact that it is used to describe people who have issues with Islam based on reason and evidence though, is a problem for me.

This is a good post.
I agree.
In my opinion, the correct meaning of "Islamophobia" is bigotry towards Muslims.

Legit critical criticism of Muslims and Islam isn't Islamophobia.

Alchem
10-14-2014, 09:56 PM
This is a good post.
I agree.
In my opinion, the correct meaning of "Islamophobia" is bigotry towards Muslims.
That's really how the meaning has always been, Islamophobes always like to attack the strawman that it actually means "criticism of Islam" or "fear of Islam"

JonathanRhimes
10-14-2014, 09:56 PM
This is a good post.
I agree.
In my opinion, the correct meaning of "Islamophobia" is bigotry towards Muslims.

Legit critical criticism of Muslims and Islam isn't Islamophobia.

How is the determination made re. what is bigotry and what is legitimate criticism? Who makes this determination?

mot1ve
10-14-2014, 10:05 PM
Islamophobia is so simple.

Media/Govt feeds us chit, we watch tv, use the internet and hear the radio... we buy into it... ISLAMOPHOBIA!

I mean I got some muslim friends.. I don't feel terrorized by them. I go to their houses all the time.. Dude's have the ideal american dream life.. Parents came in the 70s, worked hard, they worked hard , had good parenting and now have good lives.


Basically in WAR, there is always PROPAGANDA. When bull**** excuses like 9/11, WMD's, Sadaam Hussain being a dictator , and all else fails, target religion --in justification to raise taxes and use our hard earned tax dollars to invade countries we had no problems with and put our good Americans on the front lines to risk their lives as pawns, while we establish some kind of power in t hese countries while stealing all their oil to help break our massive trillion dollar debt!

TPTB (The powers that be) want to have a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. What does this mean? A governing body that says what every nation in the world can do and what their people can do! Why ? Because they can't risk anyone going against their agendas . They want control of the world! Israel, America, UK , Canada , Australia and other nations asren't good enough! They want everyone.

Even Putin works with TPTB! But he has to play it up for the masses. Same with Ahmadinejad.. you can even see him in pictures doing his fraternal handshakes with american politicans and israeli politicans !

**** you can even find pictures of John Mccain posing with Al Qaeda!

It's life. Alot of people won't be on this level where you can see past the smokescreen and decipher whats really going on in the world.

When you do get to this level, you'll realize It's a HUGE GAME of Diplomacy/Imperalism and CONTROL. It's all about CONTROL! and whats at stake? The Earth and all it's inhabitants. Now that's something worth killing 2000 of your own people in a controlled demolition and calling it a terrorist attack over. ;)

TranceNRG
10-14-2014, 10:07 PM
How is the determination made re. what is bigotry and what is legitimate criticism? Who makes this determination?

big·ot·ry
ˈbiɡətrē/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries
intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

JonathanRhimes
10-14-2014, 11:27 PM
big·ot·ry
ˈbiɡətrē/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries
intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

So...if I were to say that I won't tolerate a mindset that demands death for apostates...somebody somewhere says I am bigoted toward people who want to kill apostates? And therefore a bigot and Islamophobe?

Cool story bro

Here's a definition for criticism:
1.
the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything.

So I say "I am criticizing people because I think death for apostates is unethical"
How do you propose to make any practical or useful differentiation, whatsoever, between what I call criticism and someone else calls bigotry?

Srs question is Srs

TranceNRG
10-14-2014, 11:41 PM
So...if I were to say that I won't tolerate a mindset that demands death for apostates...somebody somewhere says I am bigoted toward people who want to kill apostates? And therefore a bigot and Islamophobe?

Cool story bro

Here's a definition for criticism:
1.
the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything.

So I say "I am criticizing people because I think death for apostates is unethical"
How do you propose to make any practical or useful differentiation, whatsoever, between what I call criticism and someone else calls bigotry?

Srs question is Srs

Here's a solution:

There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.
A percentage of these Muslims may in fact agree with your position.
They may have their own reasons, interpretations and/or guidelines, which places them in agreement with your position.
These Muslims do not consider themselves non-muslims or "fake" muslims, or "nominal" muslims. They genuinely hold that position, which is in line with yours.

When and if you claim that because of your position, you cannot tolerate Islam or Muslims (without making any qualifications), then not only you'd be showing ignorance towards the heterogenous nature of Islam and the Muslim world, but you alienate groups of Muslims who may hold a similar opinion as yours regarding this topic.

You can certainly criticize specific interpretations or groups within Islam or the Muslim world, but to make generalizations and subsequently condemn all interpretation and all Muslims, is bigotry rooted in ignorance.

21infantry
10-14-2014, 11:51 PM
Seriously, why would you give two shytes about words, people give to much power to words. Call me whatever you want, I don't care. People who are like minded hang out with people who are like minded and rarely say anything in Public, I don't really care if Stacy at the World Free Trade Store thinks I am a bigot or a racist or that I burn babies in my back yard for fun, she is not in my social structure thus her opinion means nothing to me.

JonathanRhimes
10-15-2014, 12:00 AM
Here's a solution:

There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.
A percentage of these Muslims may in fact agree with your position.
They may have their own reasons, interpretations and/or guidelines, which places them in agreement with your position.
These Muslims do not consider themselves non-muslims or "fake" muslims, or "nominal" muslims. They genuinely hold that position, which is in line with yours.

When and if you claim that because of your position, you cannot tolerate Islam or Muslims (without making any qualifications), then not only you'd be showing ignorance towards the heterogenous nature of Islam and the Muslim world, but you alienate groups of Muslims who may hold a similar opinion as yours regarding this topic.

You can certainly criticize specific interpretations or groups within Islam or the Muslim world, but to make generalizations and subsequently condemn all interpretation and all Muslims, is bigotry rooted in ignorance.

Here's some data on what percentage of Muslims in various countries want to kill apostates. In some it's a tiny minority and in others it's a large majority:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

To represent the extremes: 0% of Muslims in Kazakhstan want to kill apostates and 78% of Muslims in Afghanistan do, according to this data.

From the West's perspective, is it reasonable to restrict immigration from Afghanistan if the majority of Afghani Muslims want to kill apostates? Or would that be bigoted?

TranceNRG
10-15-2014, 12:12 AM
Here's some data on what percentage of Muslims in various countries want to kill apostates. In some it's a tiny minority and in others it's a large majority:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

To represent the extremes: 0% of Muslims in Kazakhstan want to kill apostates and 78% of Muslims in Afghanistan do, according to this data.

From the West's perspective, is it reasonable to restrict immigration from Afghanistan if the majority of Afghani Muslims want to kill apostates? Or would that be bigoted?

Wait a second.
I'm glad you posted these data.
It clearly indicates the heterogenous nature of Islam and the Muslim world.

When and if you make a general claim about Islam and/or Muslims regarding this topic, you would be ignoring this wide spectrum of opinions, views and beliefs.
For example, if you make a general sweeping claim about all Muslims or Islam because of your position on the topic of apostasy, you'd be ignoring the opinions of the majority of Muslims in Kazakhstan, Albania, Turkey, Kosovo, Bosnia, and ...
That's millions of Muslims that agree with you that you'd be ignoring.

So, bigotry is when and if you make general accusatory claims against Islam or all Muslims based on the actions, beliefs and interpretation of some Muslims.


Now, regarding your question, sure. Target and restrict the immigration of those Afghanis that hold a view that contradicts yours.
Again, don't target all Afghanis, because 22% of them agree with you.

ONtop888
10-15-2014, 06:45 PM
Here's a solution:

There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.
A percentage of these Muslims may in fact agree with your position.
They may have their own reasons, interpretations and/or guidelines, which places them in agreement with your position.
These Muslims do not consider themselves non-muslims or "fake" muslims, or "nominal" muslims. They genuinely hold that position, which is in line with yours.

When and if you claim that because of your position, you cannot tolerate Islam or Muslims (without making any qualifications), then not only you'd be showing ignorance towards the heterogenous nature of Islam and the Muslim world, but you alienate groups of Muslims who may hold a similar opinion as yours regarding this topic.

You can certainly criticize specific interpretations or groups within Islam or the Muslim world, but to make generalizations and subsequently condemn all interpretation and all Muslims, is bigotry rooted in ignorance.
This is absolutely true. When criticizing any group, unless they are genocidal, especially one as diverse as Islam, it is necessary to make important qualifications about what specifically you are critical of. My closest family friends are Ismaili Shias and they do not believe in killing apostates. They are amazing, charitable people...and they even gave my Catholic dad the honor of being their children's godfather.

ONtop888
10-15-2014, 06:48 PM
Wait a second.
I'm glad you posted these data.
It clearly indicates the heterogenous nature of Islam and the Muslim world.

When and if you make a general claim about Islam and/or Muslims regarding this topic, you would be ignoring this wide spectrum of opinions, views and beliefs.
For example, if you make a general sweeping claim about all Muslims or Islam because of your position on the topic of apostasy, you'd be ignoring the opinions of the majority of Muslims in Kazakhstan, Albania, Turkey, Kosovo, Bosnia, and ...
That's millions of Muslims that agree with you that you'd be ignoring.

So, bigotry is when and if you make general accusatory claims against Islam or all Muslims based on the actions, beliefs and interpretation of some Muslims.


Now, regarding your question, sure. Target and restrict the immigration of those Afghanis that hold a view that contradicts yours.
Again, don't target all Afghanis, because 22% of them agree with you.
Just out of curiosity, how would a government to about discerning what individuals hold a view that the country deems as dangerous? It seems that a more practical policy would be to restrict immigration quite drastically from countries whose people hold that view as a majority and open it up for countries which have a minority of that view (I.e. Some of the countries that you mentioned).

TranceNRG
10-15-2014, 11:14 PM
Just out of curiosity, how would a government to about discerning what individuals hold a view that the country deems as dangerous? It seems that a more practical policy would be to restrict immigration quite drastically from countries whose people hold that view as a majority and open it up for countries which have a minority of that view (I.e. Some of the countries that you mentioned).

I don't know of a way, but I do hope that there are others who can think of a way that prevents discrimination.

Tekkendo
10-16-2014, 12:11 AM
big·ot·ry
ˈbiɡətrē/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries
intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

LMAO. So Islam is the mother of all bigotry and most muslims are bigots then. Islam is the most intolerant religion and muslims are basically compelled to be bigots as a result.