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Serpentarius
09-26-2014, 11:22 AM
They dont. Seriously.

LordWolF
09-26-2014, 11:23 AM
lol nice thread Serpentarius. :D

Luc1fer
09-26-2014, 12:26 PM
The human body is too clever for that :) When I hit around 10% I'll incorporate week long "refeeds" but I prefer to call them maintenance breaks. I'm assuming this has some impact in mood, leptin levels but it's mostly a psychological break for me.

I pretty much discovered there's no easy way naturally once you hit 10%, you can refeed, do maintenance weeks etc. but at the end if the day your body will adapt and fight against the loss if that final few percent. Exponentially.

MrM27
09-26-2014, 12:32 PM
They dont. Seriously.
Quiet down fattie, you're not the boss of me!!!

Serpentarius
09-26-2014, 12:35 PM
Quiet down fattie, you're not the boss of me!!!

ok :(

TheLongRun
09-26-2014, 12:39 PM
Bbbbbbut Lyle said they're good for me! I already bought all of these M&M's!

Merial20
09-26-2014, 12:46 PM
Bbbbbbut Lyle said they're good for me! I already bought all of these M&M's!

If they don't help at all, why even start incorporating then at below 10%? Why not just continue riding out the deficit? Srs question.

MrM27
09-26-2014, 12:51 PM
ok :(
Damn, I'm sorry. Here, I'll split this with you. Don't worry, we'll call it a refeed.

http://i.imgur.com/HBMfmBx.jpg

TheLongRun
09-26-2014, 12:54 PM
If they don't help at all, why even start incorporating then at below 10%? Why not just continue riding out the deficit? Srs question.
Okay, I see what you're getting at. Below 10%, for performance reasons, they MIGHT be of some help. Like for refilling glycogen, so that you can continue training intensely to provide the stimulus for LBM retention in the face of a deficit.

What Serp and I were mocking are the countless threads of obese newbies thinking they need to gorge themselves for a day or two because it's supposed to raise metabolism/break a plateau/raise leptin or thyroid or whatever the latest purported benefit may be. And then when they make ZERO progress, they blame it on their metabolic damage.

I personally never had a refeed going down to my avi. I rode out the deficit. I was fine. But then again, I'm not a contest prep level, nor will I ever be. Maybe if we're talking about getting shredded or something, refeeds might have their place, but for people who just want to look good (eg: 10-12%)? Totally not required, nor helpful (maybe only psychologically).

Serpentarius
09-26-2014, 01:17 PM
If they don't help at all, why even start incorporating then at below 10%? Why not just continue riding out the deficit? Srs question.

It sorta recharges your batteries so to speak to make the deficit sustainable. Its not natural to get very lean because the body is literally starving to death, but in an artificial environment that is controlled. The deficit without stopping is the fastest way, but it can be made more tolerable for long term low bodyfat cutting and the performance aspect.
The people that think if they do a refeed to somehow break out of a plateau are actually just eating too much, it will slow them down even further except when they see a whoosh on the scale that will just come right back once glycogen levels return to normal.
My beef with the whole refeed thing is guys that are clearly not natural claiming thats the key to being lean. IMO getting extremely lean is very easy if you can overcome the mental fatigue but personally dont think being sub 10% is a smart idea for those with a REAL life and responsibilities, who are natural anyhow.

In the end if someone wants to just eat extra food, they should because unless we are getting paid for this, there is no end to it all.

Merial20
09-26-2014, 01:49 PM
Ah I see that's what I figured ty

The1Blob
09-26-2014, 02:06 PM
personally dont think being sub 10% is a smart idea for those with a real life and responsibilities, who are natural anyhow.

In the end if someone wants to just eat extra food, they should because unless we are getting paid for this, there is no end to it all.

tttthhhiiisss!!!

Luclin999
09-26-2014, 02:56 PM
They dont. Seriously.

WHHAAaattt?!?

You mean my weekly "Pound o' Skittles" refeeds aren't helping me get down from 25% BF faster????

Say it ain't so, Brah!!!!

:)

Neofolis
09-26-2014, 03:51 PM
What research are you basing this argument on. I'm not saying your wrong, but at least the blogs, articles, etc. I've read that state the benefits of refeeds clearly reference research papers documented on the topic. I appreciate that almost all of the studies into sports nutrition, etc. seem to be flawed in one way or another, but some evidence, for me, is more believable than, because some stranger on a forum says so/not.

Also, it seems as though some people have a personal vendetta against refeeds. I'm probably overstating that somewhat, but I started incorporating a weekly refeed after reading research backed evidence of their benefits and since having added them, I've found my diet more enjoyable with the knowledge that I have that one day to look forward to. It hasn't hindered my progress, as far as I can tell and has provided some extra incentive to stick with my diet for the rest of the week. It may not have benefitted my progress either, in fairness it's impossible to know exactly where I'd be if I hadn't added them, but it's not something I'd want to stop doing now without a very good reason to do so.

Serpentarius
09-26-2014, 04:07 PM
What research are you basing this argument on. I'm not saying your wrong, but at least the blogs, articles, etc. I've read that state the benefits of refeeds clearly reference research papers documented on the topic. I appreciate that almost all of the studies into sports nutrition, etc. seem to be flawed in one way or another, but some evidence, for me, is more believable than, because some stranger on a forum says so/not.

Also, it seems as though some people have a personal vendetta against refeeds. I'm probably overstating that somewhat, but I started incorporating a weekly refeed after reading research backed evidence of their benefits and since having added them, I've found my diet more enjoyable with the knowledge that I have that one day to look forward to. It hasn't hindered my progress, as far as I can tell and has provided some extra incentive to stick with my diet for the rest of the week. It may not have benefitted my progress either, in fairness it's impossible to know exactly where I'd be if I hadn't added them, but it's not something I'd want to stop doing now without a very good reason to do so.

Are you lifting on an intense strength program with the ideal of being single digit bf? If not then its a non issue, just train and eat. Most people doing refeeds are still eating lots of fat for that day, too much fat and too much protein. If you are above 12%, you are fat plain and simple.

Everyone seems to have metabolic damage, gyno, or needs refeeds every 3 days, this stuff wasnt an issue 5 years ago.

edit: and not to be harsh but with your current body composition a refeed is doing absolutely nothing, its just prolonging your weight loss. You are just eating extra food, which is fine if you want to do that but its not doing what it was intended to be doing, when leptin levels suffer and ghrelin increases...those are a non issue when overweight.

shwick
09-26-2014, 04:38 PM
whhaaaattt?!?

You mean my weekly "pound o' skittles" refeeds aren't helping me get down from 25% bf faster????

Say it ain't so, brah!!!!

:)

lol

Neofolis
09-26-2014, 04:41 PM
It's not slowing anything down, because I lowered my calorie intake for the rest of the week to allow for the refeed, so my net weekly intake is the same, but I much prefer having the one day with extra calories/carbs and more options in my diet. Everything still gets tracked and I don't eat crap on that day, it just allows me a bit more flexibility with my food choices that are difficult to work into my macros on other days.

Yes, my body composition still has a long way to go, but I'm making progress and not losing any motivation, so it's only a matter of time.

Serpentarius
09-26-2014, 04:50 PM
It's not slowing anything down, because I lowered my calorie intake for the rest of the week to allow for the refeed, so my net weekly intake is the same, but I much prefer having the one day with extra calories/carbs and more options in my diet. Everything still gets tracked and I don't eat crap on that day, it just allows me a bit more flexibility with my food choices that are difficult to work into my macros on other days.

Yes, my body composition still has a long way to go, but I'm making progress and not losing any motivation, so it's only a matter of time.

well thats all fine, but its still not a refeed and you CAN call it that but its not that, its just eating extra calories until your body actually has hormone imbalance from being lean. What are your macros for that day? And you cant really say you are taking extra calories because you are in a deficit so there is obviously a calorie deficit coming from somewhere. People just use the word "refeed" because its a buzzword popularized that is misunderstood, like "metabolism". And yes it DOES affect your weight loss because a refeed puts you at maintenance or over which is.....taking away from the deficit.

EjnarKolinkar
09-26-2014, 05:20 PM
But bro I'm fat and I'm hungry!

My cut isn't doing too well because I eat too much, and this sounds nice?

Serpentarius
09-26-2014, 05:25 PM
But bro I'm fat and I'm hungry!

My cut isn't doing too well because I eat too much, and this sounds nice?

eat big to get big, duh.

Neofolis
09-26-2014, 05:32 PM
My maintenance is 2400 calories about (depending on accuracy of activity levels). I was previously eating 1660 calories 7 days per week, 11620. I am now eating 1540 calories 6 days per week and up to 2400 calories on Sunday, 11640. Yes, I know my deficit is a bit higher than ideal, but I feel more than satiated and energy levels are fine now, although they were very low for the first 3-4 weeks.

No-one will like or agree with my macros, 1540 Calorie day - Protein 234g, Carbs 95g, Fat 25g. I know, protein too high, carbs too low, fats way too low. I will be changing this from the beginning of October, but it has been working quite well for me, although my main concern is not getting enough fat for vitamin and mineral absorption, but a recent study showed that the fat requirements for optimal vitamin A uptake are a lot less than previously thought, though that may not apply to all micros and also doesn't account for the effect fats have on hormones, etc. Anyway Sunday is actually lower Protein 180g, Carbs 200g, Fats 85g, which actually comes out to only 2285 Cals.

Maybe it's not a refeed, but when I read people referring to refeeds, that seems to be what they are describing.

Serpentarius
09-26-2014, 05:45 PM
no...
a refeed is as close to 0g fat as possible 0.8g protein per lb of lbm. Your daily fat intake is pretty what what a refeed is. High fat is beyond throwing a refeed out the door, period. Your protein should probably be closer to 120 or 130g a day on a refeed, which...you dont need. Its irrelevant, your bodyfat is so high your macros are pretty much irrelevant, get your RDA and call it good.
Drop your daily protein by 100g, thats a big waste of money, you absolutely do not need more than 130g a day.

If i even refeed on a lifting day with around 3500 cals my fat is still close to 30g because of trace fat, not that it matters because im not an athlete.

Neofolis
09-26-2014, 05:50 PM
Oh man, now you'll think I'm a complete twat, assuming you didn't before. OK, so six days a week my diet consists of a protein shake for breakfast 60g Whey Isolate in 600ml Skimmed milk. Lunch consists of a protein shake 60g whey isolate in 600ml Skimmed milk plus 50g freshly ground flaxseed. Evening meal, you'll never guess 60g whey isolate in 600ml skimmed milk. I take a multivitamin and mineral with the lunch shake, as the flaxseed is my only source of fat. Go on then, start all of the criticism about how unhealthy, unbalanced, etc my diet is.

Sunday, you'll like this, protein shake for breakfast, same as the other days, lunch 2 slices of white bread with 25g butter and 4 slices of Quorn deli vegetarian Ham. Evening large baked potato with 25g butter, 208g Heinz Baked Beans (English version) and 100g Mature Cheddar. I am also supposed to have another shake, like the breakfast one in the evening, but I often don't bother, in which case my calories are closer to 1900, but with considerably less protein than the other days of the week.

MrM27
09-26-2014, 05:56 PM
Oh man, now you'll think I'm a complete twat, assuming you didn't before. OK, so six days a week my diet consists of a protein shake for breakfast 60g Whey Isolate in 600ml Skimmed milk. Lunch consists of a protein shake 60g whey isolate in 600ml Skimmed milk plus 50g freshly ground flaxseed. Evening meal, you'll never guess 60g whey isolate in 600ml skimmed milk. I take a multivitamin and mineral with the lunch shake, as the flaxseed is my only source of fat. Go on then, start all of the criticism about how unhealthy, unbalanced, etc my diet is.

Sunday, you'll like this, protein shake for breakfast, same as the other days, lunch 2 slices of white bread with 25g butter and 4 slices of Quorn deli vegetarian Ham. Evening large baked potato with 25g butter, 208g Heinz Baked Beans (English version) and 100g Mature Cheddar. I am also supposed to have another shake, like the breakfast one in the evening, but I often don't bother, in which case my calories are closer to 1900, but with considerably less protein than the other days of the week.

Living on protein shakes and poverty calories. Now that's a sustainable way to eat (drink) if I've ever seen one.

Serpentarius
09-26-2014, 06:05 PM
Drop the protein significantly, honestly to 120-130 max, you absolutely dont need to waste money on that. With those freed up calories you can eat whole foods and fats, and the only reason shakes are ever satiating is the liquid, you could just chug water. Dont drink your calories unless you can afford to, by afford i mean your calorie intake. Just eat foods you enjoy in a calorie deficit and make sure you at least get your RDAs and dont overcomplicate this stuff.
Seriously dont waste money on shakes and feed the industry :(
Unless you are me and dont eat meat in abundance for personal reasons, dont drink too much whey.

Neofolis
09-26-2014, 06:14 PM
Yes, I know it's not ideal and in fairness I've only been doing this for the past few weeks. Previously it wasn't much different, but I was putting 100g Spinach and 350g berries into the lunch shake/smoothie. The reason I ended up like this was because I had a really hard time working out what vegetarian foods would get me to the macros I wanted and doing it with shakes/smoothies was easier than using a proper diet and more convenient, plus I couldn't be arsed with cooking all the time and thinking of numerous different meal plans to reach the same macros. After a couple of months of just doing the shakes/smoothies 7 days a week, I started to get occasional urges to eat something, rather than just drinking my entire calorie intake, so I introduced the "apparently not a refeed" day to allow a little more flexibility, but having done so my weight loss stalled, despite what should still have been a weekly deficit, so I removed the spinach and fruit from the lunch smoothie and stated losing weight again.

I realise this is a very boring and lazy approach to dieting and almost certainly not sustainable, but I figured it only has to be until I get my body fat sorted, then I can get on with a more sensible slight surplus diet and build a little muscle.

I blame my stupid, inaccurate BIA scales. When I first started dieting I was eating far more sensibly and losing weight, but they kept telling me that I was losing mostly muscle, so I got paranoid and thought, I need a **** load of protein (and more lifting). Since then, the weight loss has continued and, accurate or not, my scales don't keep telling me I'm losing loads of muscle.

EjnarKolinkar
09-26-2014, 08:11 PM
Yes, I know it's not ideal and in fairness I've only been doing this for the past few weeks. Previously it wasn't much different, but I was putting 100g Spinach and 350g berries into the lunch shake/smoothie. The reason I ended up like this was because I had a really hard time working out what vegetarian foods would get me to the macros I wanted and doing it with shakes/smoothies was easier than using a proper diet and more convenient, plus I couldn't be arsed with cooking all the time and thinking of numerous different meal plans to reach the same macros. After a couple of months of just doing the shakes/smoothies 7 days a week, I started to get occasional urges to eat something, rather than just drinking my entire calorie intake, so I introduced the "apparently not a refeed" day to allow a little more flexibility, but having done so my weight loss stalled, despite what should still have been a weekly deficit, so I removed the spinach and fruit from the lunch smoothie and stated losing weight again.

I realise this is a very boring and lazy approach to dieting and almost certainly not sustainable, but I figured it only has to be until I get my body fat sorted, then I can get on with a more sensible slight surplus diet and build a little muscle.

I blame my stupid, inaccurate BIA scales. When I first started dieting I was eating far more sensibly and losing weight, but they kept telling me that I was losing mostly muscle, so I got paranoid and thought, I need a **** load of protein (and more lifting). Since then, the weight loss has continued and, accurate or not, my scales don't keep telling me I'm losing loads of muscle.


Your intake is astonishingly poor. Constructing a fundamentally sufficient diet is really not that complicated. Why not get on the right side of this now? Your health is important.

Neofolis
09-26-2014, 09:37 PM
I will be making changes, but I am getting almost all of the micronutrient RDAs based on a 2500 kcal diet, so despite the lack of variety and lack of solids, with a little macro adjustment, it shouldn't be unhealthy, unless there is some other reason that I am unaware of. I am currently a little low on vitamin K and manganese, since dropping the spinach and berries, but I will be sorting that out amongst other changes. One of the most important things about any weight (fat) loss diet is it being something you can stick to and at least I don't have any problems in that regard.

MrM27
09-26-2014, 10:01 PM
I will be making changes, but I am getting almost all of the micronutrient RDAs based on a 2500 kcal diet, so despite the lack of variety and lack of solids, with a little macro adjustment, it shouldn't be unhealthy, unless there is some other reason that I am unaware of. I am currently a little low on vitamin K and manganese, since dropping the spinach and berries, but I will be sorting that out amongst other changes. One of the most important things about any weight (fat) loss diet is it being something you can stick to and at least I don't have any problems in that regard.
If and when you lose the weight what will you do? Go back to eating actual food?

Neofolis
09-26-2014, 10:13 PM
Yes, although not what I was eating before my diet. When I was calculating my macros and trying to work out how to get the amount of protein I wanted with the amount of calories I wanted, there didn't seem to be an easy alternative for a vegetarian other than consuming crap loads of whey, but once I'm down to a sensible body fat %, I will increase my calories, decrease my protein slightly and it will be a whole lot easier to make a varied and enjoyable diet. At that point I would also aim to be getting all of my micros from my diet rather than supplementing them.

MrM27
09-27-2014, 03:03 AM
Yes, although not what I was eating before my diet. When I was calculating my macros and trying to work out how to get the amount of protein I wanted with the amount of calories I wanted, there didn't seem to be an easy alternative for a vegetarian other than consuming crap loads of whey, but once I'm down to a sensible body fat %, I will increase my calories, decrease my protein slightly and it will be a whole lot easier to make a varied and enjoyable diet. At that point I would also aim to be getting all of my micros from my diet rather than supplementing them.
You make it sound so easy. If it were that easy then you should have done that now. Don't think you're the first to come up with that plan.

EjnarKolinkar
09-27-2014, 04:50 AM
Yes, although not what I was eating before my diet. When I was calculating my macros and trying to work out how to get the amount of protein I wanted with the amount of calories I wanted, there didn't seem to be an easy alternative for a vegetarian other than consuming crap loads of whey, but once I'm down to a sensible body fat %, I will increase my calories, decrease my protein slightly and it will be a whole lot easier to make a varied and enjoyable diet. At that point I would also aim to be getting all of my micros from my diet rather than supplementing them.

And again there is no time like the present to begin doing the work to construct a reasonable intake. If you do not start practicing now to eat a more normal and varied intake, well it does not get easier later.

6 servings of whey isolate
1.8 L of skim milk
and some flax seed

Seems you are shooting for a very high protein level in relation to your LBM at the expense of fruits, vegetables, legumes, fiber. Do you consume egg products or only dairy?

How much weight are you trying to lose?

Neofolis
09-27-2014, 04:51 AM
Why would I have done it by now? I have spent most of the past year totally immobile due to a back problem, during which time I gained over 50lbs, partly due to not burning many calories and partly due to poor diet while feeling sorry for myself. I started to regain my mobility during rehabilitation and by July, was given the all clear to join a gym. I have also been able to increase my hours at work and reduced my weight from over 220lbs in July to 200.4lbs just now. That's about 20lbs in 12 weeks, I couldn't really start any sooner and I doubt anyone would recommend me losing weight much faster, so how could I possibly have done it by now.

While I was immobile, I became very unmotivated, as is the case with many people in long term pain, but now I have my health back, I am feeling super motivated to make the most of it, so I probably have an advantage over most people in terms of an external influence over my motivation and yes, I am finding it very easy as a result.

Of course I don't think I'm the first person to come up with anything and when I succeed, I won't be the first person to do that either.

Neofolis
09-27-2014, 05:04 AM
The reason I'm leaving it until the beginning of October to make changes is that I have no money, due to still not being back at full hours at work and the huge amount of lost hours over the past year. I get paid monthly, so after work on Tuesday I will be able to go to the shops and make some diet changes.

I won't be making vast changes and I will be sticking with shakes and smoothies during the week, but I will be re-introducing vegetables and fruit to the my smoothies, reducing my protein and increasing my fat, carbs and fibre. I do eat eggs and I know there are probably other ways to get the macros I'm planning without drinking all of my calories for six days per week, but I actually enjoy the liquid diet and find it easy and convenient.

I guess you could say, where is my motivation to change when I reach my body fat goal and increase my calories and to be fair, I probably will still include a fair amount of whey, because it is such an easy protein source for a vegetarian, but the fact that I will have a reasonable amount more calories to play with will make it a lot easier to be more inclusive with my diet plan.

MrM27
09-27-2014, 05:04 AM
Why would I have done it by now? I have spent most of the past year totally immobile due to a back problem, during which time I gained over 50lbs, partly due to not burning many calories and partly due to poor diet while feeling sorry for myself. I started to regain my mobility during rehabilitation and by July, was given the all clear to join a gym. I have also been able to increase my hours at work and reduced my weight from over 220lbs in July to 200.4lbs just now. That's about 20lbs in 12 weeks, I couldn't really start any sooner and I doubt anyone would recommend me losing weight much faster, so how could I possibly have done it by now.

While I was immobile, I became very unmotivated, as is the case with many people in long term pain, but now I have my health back, I am feeling super motivated to make the most of it, so I probably have an advantage over most people in terms of an external influence over my motivation and yes, I am finding it very easy as a result.

Of course I don't think I'm the first person to come up with anything and when I succeed, I won't be the first person to do that either.
Where did I say anything about doing exercise by now? By done it by now I'm talking about eating like a regular human being. Not drinking a bunch of shakes, milk and flax seeds. That has nothing with you being immobile. It has to do with you wanting quick results. You somehow believe that transitioning from a terrible eating (drinking) plan to eating actual food will be a flip of the switch. Seems like you either lack creativity or are just plain to lazy to put effort into learning how to eat and construct your own meal plan. And don't say you know how to eat because clearly you don't.

kureransu
09-27-2014, 05:08 AM
Yes, although not what I was eating before my diet. When I was calculating my macros and trying to work out how to get the amount of protein I wanted with the amount of calories I wanted, there didn't seem to be an easy alternative for a vegetarian other than consuming crap loads of whey, but once I'm down to a sensible body fat %, I will increase my calories, decrease my protein slightly and it will be a whole lot easier to make a varied and enjoyable diet. At that point I would also aim to be getting all of my micros from my diet rather than supplementing them.

I just quoted the last post you've made but this is pretty much in response to everything you've said thus far.

Your plan is heavily flawed. People fail at weight loss or keeping it off for what i feel are three main reasons, Impatience, Igonrance, and Laziness.

You start your journey, are too lazy to actually make food each day meet macros AND lose weight, so because of your impaience, you just down shakes. What this does is keep you ignorant to understanding your body and weight loss balance in every day life.

So you lose all the weight. You're happy. But you have no idea how to keep it off, or how to even properly bulk since you have no clue as to what type of intake of WHOLE foods will keep you at a steady pace. You gain weight a little bit faster than you'd like, and panic. Since you never took time learning how to just balance meals and eat at a moderate deficit to lose, go back to the only thing you know, downing shakes.

You've now become the typical yo-yo dieter.


You say you don't have time to make balanced meals each day, but somehow when the weight loss is finished, you'll either have more time all of the sudden, OR, you just won't make balanced meals. If it's the former, then you should have that same time now. Balance out life to put you first a little bit, you've only one life, taking care of your self if not for just you but the others that depend on you can take a little priority.

If it's the latter, you're well on your way to the scenario i stated earlier.

Also you decrease protein when bulking, but keep it astronomically high when cutting? Like it was said before stop worrying about losing muscle. it can be put back on. I don't look like you have a ton to lose anyway, so stop worrying about that.


Some of you guys put WAY too much stock into the little things. I didn't even know what a macro was until i lost well over 150lbs. All i knew was eat less and left heavy to cut, eat more and lift HEAVIER to bulk. I knew that most of us drink most of our daily intake, so whole foods was pretty much all i ate. Oh and i didn't count a single calorie. If the scale went down i kept doing what i was doing, if it didn't i ate a little less.


Don't over think it so much.

MrM27
09-27-2014, 05:20 AM
^^^^I love when people say they have no time to prepare meals for the day. I work 2 jobs and rarely have a day off. 1 full time job and 1 part time job. I'm usually up at 5am and get home around 9 pm. No time lol. You get up early. You pre plan. What you don't do is make excuses.

kureransu
09-27-2014, 05:43 AM
^^^^I love when people say they have no time to prepare meals for the day. I work 2 jobs and rarely have a day off. 1 full time job and 1 part time job. I'm usually up at 5am and get home around 9 pm. No time lol. You get up early. You pre plan. What you don't do is make excuses. Seriously. I though a chicken breast on the skillet, or a burger on the foreman, broccoli on he steamer, and jump in the shower. I come out and it's done or needs to be flipped. Put on clothes, and it's done.

Balance. If i do something like rice, you make a lot of it. Get a rice cooker/steamer, and for 30 bucks you can get one with a delay on there. so you can set it to be ready when you wake up.

Neofolis
09-27-2014, 05:46 AM
Where did I say anything about doing exercise by now? By done it by now I'm talking about eating like a regular human being. Not drinking a bunch of shakes, milk and flax seeds. That has nothing with you being immobile. It has to do with you wanting quick results. You somehow believe that transitioning from a terrible eating (drinking) plan to eating actual food will be a flip of the switch. Seems like you either lack creativity or are just plain to lazy to put effort into learning how to eat and construct your own meal plan. And don't say you know how to eat because clearly you don't.

Sorry, I was assuming you meant, reached my body fat goal and changed my diet at that point by now. I have eaten properly for most of my life, so to say I don't know how to eat properly just because of something I have been doing for a few months and only plan to do relatively short term seems a bit short sighted.

Yes, I want quick results, which I appreciate is not the ideal and a route to failure for many people. It is partly due to having never been particularly overweight in my life until having put on a huge amount over the past year and finding it really uncomfortable, but also due to the extra stress that the weight is putting on my back and trying to speed up my recovery as much as possible, so I can get back to full hours at work and some kind of normality.

When I first used a calculator to check my macros, I was based on 1g protein per pound of weight, 20% fat and the rest in carbs. Because I was working on a high deficit, due to wanting to lose weight quickly I worked on 1000 calorie deficit. At the time this put me at 1600 calories with 210g protein, 36g fat and 109g carbs. Since joining this site I have found that that calculator didn't agree with most of the recommendations on this site, which base the protein on lean mass, rather than actual weight and which suggest fat based on bodyweight as well, rather than a percentage.

When I got my macros from the other site, I spent a considerable time looking at my various food options and trying to work out how to meet those macros and this liquid diet was the only solution I could make work. All of the other protein sources for vegetarians had too much carbs or fat for me to be able to meet those macros. Having already been on that diet for a month or so, before coming here and finding differing macro information, I was not keen to change what I was doing, because I was seeing good results and getting on fine with my diet, so it was a case of "if it's not broken, don't try to fix it". I'm not saying it's not broken or a good plan, but it has been working and I didn't want to do something that may hinder that.

Neofolis
09-27-2014, 06:19 AM
I never said anything about not having time to cook. I said this was easier and more convenient and I couldn't be arsed to cook all of the time. That doesn't mean I won't cook, didn't used to cook or don't plan to cook in the future. I just meant that I wasn't going to spend a huge amount of time cooking to enable me to achieve my macros. I have no problem with spending an hour or so cooking per day, which is about what I was doing prior to this diet, well between being immobile and starting this diet.

To answer some of kureransu's points. It's not that I was too lazy to prepare food each day to meet my macros, I was too lazy to spend the extra time to work out what food I would be able to use to meet those macros. I don't have an issue with preparing food. Either way, your point about being lazy is valid, but I still am and don't have any immediate plans to change that. My impatience is due to my previous health and wanting to get back to good health as soon as possible and yes, I am impatient in this regard and doubt that will change either. In terms of ignorance, I am certainly fairly ignorant with regard to weight loss, because it's not something I've ever needed to do in my life previously, but I am taking the time to read as much as possible about nutrition and training and as I lose weight I am learning how the little changes to my diet and training are affecting my weight loss.

Once I have lost the weight, there is no reason for me to regain that weight. I have never been fat previously until this past year, due to poor health and I am not planning to go back to having the same health issues. I appreciate that people gain weight due to reduced calorie requirements at lower weight and going back to their previous habits, but my weight gain was largely caused by being immobile and I am not going to go back to being immobile without the problem that caused that.

With regards to knowing how to properly bulk, I was a competition bodybuilder in my early twenties. Not at a particularly high level and a lot of ideas and knowledge has changed since the 1980s, but I have done plenty of bulking and cutting in the past and what I did then worked, so with the better knowledge and access to information available now, I can only see that being easier now, despite my increased age, reduced testosterone, etc. That said, I don't plan to get anything like the size I was then, I just want to gain a bit of muscle and have a healthy physique.

Yes, I overthink everything, so you can definitely include that in my list of faults.

On the plus side, prior to this thread, I was extremely motivated, but people telling me that my plan is likely to fail, has certainly added to that motivation with the "I'll show you" factor.

Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate the sharing of knowledge on this site and very much appreciate everyone's thoughts and input on this thread. I am not disagreeing with most of what has been said about my diet and I already knew it was a far from ideal approach. I have been and will continue to appraise my diet on an ongoing basis and I will take a closer look at my macros and try to come up with a more structured and varied meal plan.

kureransu
09-27-2014, 06:43 AM
I never said anything about not having time to cook. I said this was easier and more convenient and I couldn't be arsed to cook all of the time. That doesn't mean I won't cook, didn't used to cook or don't plan to cook in the future. I just meant that I wasn't going to spend a huge amount of time cooking to enable me to achieve my macros. I have no problem with spending an hour or so cooking per day, which is about what I was doing prior to this diet, well between being immobile and starting this diet.

To answer some of kureransu's points. It's not that I was too lazy to prepare food each day to meet my macros, I was too lazy to spend the extra time to work out what food I would be able to use to meet those macros. I don't have an issue with preparing food. Either way, your point about being lazy is valid, but I still am and don't have any immediate plans to change that. My impatience is due to my previous health and wanting to get back to good health as soon as possible and yes, I am impatient in this regard and doubt that will change either. In terms of ignorance, I am certainly fairly ignorant with regard to weight loss, because it's not something I've ever needed to do in my life previously, but I am taking the time to read as much as possible about nutrition and training and as I lose weight I am learning how the little changes to my diet and training are affecting my weight loss.

Once I have lost the weight, there is no reason for me to regain that weight. I have never been fat previously until this past year, due to poor health and I am not planning to go back to having the same health issues. I appreciate that people gain weight due to reduced calorie requirements at lower weight and going back to their previous habits, but my weight gain was largely caused by being immobile and I am not going to go back to being immobile without the problem that caused that.

With regards to knowing how to properly bulk, I was a competition bodybuilder in my early twenties. Not at a particularly high level and a lot of ideas and knowledge has changed since the 1980s, but I have done plenty of bulking and cutting in the past and what I did then worked, so with the better knowledge and access to information available now, I can only see that being easier now, despite my increased age, reduced testosterone, etc. That said, I don't plan to get anything like the size I was then, I just want to gain a bit of muscle and have a healthy physique.

Yes, I overthink everything, so you can definitely include that in my list of faults.

On the plus side, prior to this thread, I was extremely motivated, but people telling me that my plan is likely to fail, has certainly added to that motivation with the "I'll show you" factor.

Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate the sharing of knowledge on this site and very much appreciate everyone's thoughts and input on this thread. I am not disagreeing with most of what has been said about my diet and I already knew it was a far from ideal approach. I have been and will continue to appraise my diet on an ongoing basis and I will take a closer look at my macros and try to come up with a more structured and varied meal plan.

I'm telling you you're going to fail, What I'm saying is that you're showing habits of a yoyo dieter.

You say my claims are true, yet you are willing to do nothing to rectify this situation. What you were in younger days is not who you are now. You would have never gained weight in the first place from being immobile, since gaining wait is purely from calorie surplus, not lack of exercise. If it was easy, then why down shakes instead of just eating whole foods. Not trying to come down on you, but your actions speak opposite of your words.

You say your eating habits won't change when you lose the weight, but right now you're drinking shakes for all your food. You say when you lose the weight you transition out if that. Explain to me how your eating habits are not changing then.

Ok you didn't say you didn't have time, you said you couldn't be bother with preparing the meals. Regardless, you're expecting to just all of the sudden change your habits it'll be easy to do.

Reading is great and all, but proper experience goes much further. The information you read, while possibly truthful, still varies a bit from person to person. Put your knowledge to use and trust the system and you body.


The reason I'm posting is simply because i want you to succeed, not trying to tell you you are going to end. I'm sure you didn't gain the weight as fast as you are trying to lose it. If you take your time and develop a balanced lifestyle, you'll don't have to invest in extreme measures to ensure weight loss, and extreme measures to keep it down. You can simply enjoy life and look good in the process.

Neofolis
09-27-2014, 07:44 AM
I'm not saying I'm going to do nothing to rectify my diet, I said that I will continue to review and amend my diet, but it is likely to still include a lot of whey, because most of the vegetarian protein sources are high in fats or carbs. When I say I won't change my eating habits when I've lost the fat, I mean I won't change them from prior to the diet, although this is not strictly speaking true, because I will have to include more protein than I consumed then if I want to gain any muscle and I will be eating with a slight surplus as opposed to eating at maintenance. I realise my weight gain was caused by a surplus, but with my normal levels of activity I wouldn't be in a surplus. Although I was eating less, while I was immobile, it was obviously still too much and there was an inclusion of comfort foods that are not something I normally ate regularly prior to my health problems. The part that I have found difficult was finding whole foods that enabled me to meet my macros. Using the foods that I would have eaten regularly prior to my diet, quorn, soya and tofu have reasonable protein, but also some carbs, eggs, seeds and nuts have a lot of fat and legumes have much lower protein levels. I am certainly open to food suggestions and I have no issue with cooking in the evenings. My weight gain happened over the space of about 12 months, although the majority of it was in the first six months and I doubt I will lose it any faster than that, but how fast I gained the weight is somewhat irrelevant.

Like I said, I appreciate the comments and understand that people are trying to help and I'm not particularly adverse to changing my diet straight away, especially after just having found that my wife has been paid, so I can go to the shops now. I will look at my macros again, but I will be sticking to a fairly aggressive deficit and I will be keeping my protein fairly high. To be honest, my protein was never intended to be as high as it is at the moment, but I didn't previously weigh my whey, as I assumed the measures would be fairly accurate, so I thought I was having 50g whey per shake, but having weighed the scoops, found that two scoops normally comes to 55-60g, rather than the 50g I thought it was. The same is true for the milk, I was using a measuring jug, but based on weight I was getting closer to 600ml than the 500 ml the measuring jug was indicating, although my poor eyesight was probably partially responsible.

EjnarKolinkar
09-27-2014, 07:44 AM
To answer some of kureransu's points. It's not that I was too lazy to prepare food each day to meet my macros, I was too lazy to spend the extra time to work out what food I would be able to use to meet those macros.


And in the time you have spent posting in this thread you could have already done it. Just trying to support you in your goals and health. Good luck with your goals in 2014.






OT:

Overfeeding and reverse dieting:

http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/7#B71


Changes in energy expenditure, mitochondrial efficiency, and circulating hormone concentrations work in concert to attenuate further weight loss and promote the restoration of baseline body mass. Athletes must aim to minimize the magnitude of these adaptations, preserve LBM, and adequately fuel performance and recovery during weight reduction. To accomplish these goals, it is recommended to approach weight loss in a stepwise, incremental fashion, utilizing small energy deficits to ensure a slow rate of weight loss. Participation in a structured resistance training program and adequate protein intake are also imperative. More research is needed to verify the efficacy of periodic refeeding and reverse dieting in supporting prolonged weight reduction and attenuating post-diet fat accretion.


Although there is a substantial body of research on metabolic adaptations to weight loss, the majority of the research has utilized animal models or subjects that are sedentary and overweight/obese. Accordingly, the current article is limited by the need to apply this data to an athletic population.


While interventions have shown acute increases in leptin from short-term carbohydrate overfeeding, the reported effect on metabolic rate has been modest [71]. Dirlewanger et al. reported a 7% increase in TDEE; this increase amounts to approximately 138 kilocalories of additional energy expenditure, of which 36 kilocalories can be attributed to the thermic effect of carbohydrate intake [71].

Not much when you consider the % increase in TDEE came at the cost of overfeeding.



While I am a major fan of a high calorie day, or diet break as needed, I've never felt I was going to get some massive fat loss effect.

Advanced, high LBM, sub 7% body fat, bodybuilders in contest prep are obviously in a world far, far apart from me or other 10%-30% body fat dieters. I would not try to apply what they do with "refeeds" to myself. The majority of them use different methods only arrived at by trial and error. And lets be serious, the effects of 1-3 day of overfeeding will always escape the +/- error factor in any body comp test. Much of this is visual, carb replenishment, shifting of water, things that will not even be noticeable in someone at 15% BF.



A well formulated diet should not be looking at the scale daily for feedback based on one days overfeeding anyway. That kind of stuff will drive you nuts on a long diet.


If you need a break for compliance go for it. It's probably wise to incorporate such breaks.

Neofolis
09-27-2014, 08:07 AM
And in the time you have spent posting in this thread you could have already done it.

You wouldn't believe how much time I have spent messing around on spreadsheets over the past couple of months trying different foods and ingredients to try to get somewhere near my macros. That process has not stopped, it is something I look at almost every day.

shoprat48092
09-27-2014, 08:23 PM
Okay, I really dont know much about vegetarian foods or how they cook what you add to them etc. so I just took the ones you put up there and added egg whites since you say you eat them and figured in 2 shakes one with whey and one with casein (thats what I take anyhow) and figured everything at 4 servings each ( of what the nutritional information says for 1 serving) and this is what I got:
k=calories f=fat c=calories p=protein and fiber

4eggwhites 68k .24f 0.96c 14.4p
4 servings quorn 340k 2.80f 36.00c 44.0p 24fiber
4 servings tofu 352k 20.00f 8.00c 40.0p 4fiber
1 whey shake with .5% milk 230k 10.00f 16.00c 33.0p 1fiber
1 casein shake with .5% milk 207k 2.o f 14.00c 32.0p 1fiber
total of these items 1197k 35.04f 74.96c 163.4p 30fiber
so that would give you 163g of protein with just under 1200 calories leaving you with 400 or so to add in for whatever else you need to make the tofu/quorn into a meal. I think it would work if you tried something like this, it also leaves a bit of wiggle room with carbs/fats still to enjoy a snack in their and should make it easier to transition from dieting to reintroducing the calories back to maintenance.

Neofolis
09-28-2014, 01:31 AM
Thanks shoprat48092, I clearly need to be more creative/imaginative. I guess I'll try to experiment with one meal per day to begin with and work up from there.

TheLongRun
09-28-2014, 03:28 AM
Thanks shoprat48092, I clearly need to be more creative/imaginative. I guess I'll try to experiment with one meal per day to begin with and work up from there.

Yeah, only eating once per day is totally necessary.

Why don't you work on developing better, more sustainable habits that you can actually maintain for life? Like other posters have said.

Neofolis
09-28-2014, 06:10 AM
Like I said previously, this was never meant to be sustainable or permanent. I think trying to incorporate one cooked meal into my diet, then once I am used to a selection of different recipes for that meal concentrating on replacing another shake with a meal seems an acceptable approach. I doubt my digestive system would particularly enjoy going from all liquid to almost all solid in one step anyway.

I can appreciate people's views on that lack of variety in my diet, but I don't see why my nutrients coming from liquid or solid would make any difference. I have already re-introduced the fruit and vegetables that I was previously having in my lunch smoothie, so that combined with a cooked evening meal will give me a reasonable amount of variety, but I will add more variety to the lunch meal next.

stormbauer
09-28-2014, 07:18 AM
I am a noob but this is what i am seeing.... Been on deficit for 3 1/2 months 218 down to 169... Probably 25%+ bf not around 11%

Started with very low cals 1200 per day... Big losses... Stepped up to 1800 for a bit now at 2,050 trying to lose that last bit of fat over lower abs....

Been doing 4-6 days cardio and 4-5 days per week weight training.... Just stepped up my weight training to around an hour from previous of 35-40 minutes and reduced rest between to minimum....

With current 2,050 cals per day i find myself running out of gas during last 1-2 sets.... So think some amount of refeed may help....think refeed should be more like maint than an all out feed fest... Just some of my noob thoughts

dmacdonal9
09-28-2014, 07:25 AM
Been doing 4-6 days cardio and 4-5 days per week weight training.... Just stepped up my weight training to around an hour from previous of 35-40 minutes and reduced rest between to minimum....

With current 2,050 cals per day i find myself running out of gas during last 1-2 sets.... So think some amount of refeed may help....think refeed should be more like maint than an all out feed fest... Just some of my noob thoughts

It could be beneficial, but only because you have created a problem that didn't need to exist in the first place. If you evened things out with a moderate cut and a workload that you can handle on a deficit, a higher calorie day (wouldn't even call it a refeed tbh) wouldn't be necessary.

shoprat48092
09-28-2014, 09:21 AM
I am a noob but this is what i am seeing.... Been on deficit for 3 1/2 months 218 down to 169... Probably 25%+ bf not around 11%

Started with very low cals 1200 per day... Big losses... Stepped up to 1800 for a bit now at 2,050 trying to lose that last bit of fat over lower abs....

Been doing 4-6 days cardio and 4-5 days per week weight training.... Just stepped up my weight training to around an hour from previous of 35-40 minutes and reduced rest between to minimum....

With current 2,050 cals per day i find myself running out of gas during last 1-2 sets.... So think some amount of refeed may help....think refeed should be more like maint than an all out feed fest... Just some of my noob thoughts



Well to me what it sounds like is your trying to bulk(add muscle) while on a cut. Granted the initial 1200 calories was too low the 1800 should be about right to cut on. ON your lifting I would suggest doing a good beginner program like stronglifts 5x5, starting strength or ice cream fitness and stick to that, with the cardio being optional.
And once you drop down to the weight you like, then do a slow bulk (adding only 200 calories or so over maintenance) for a bit til you get the muscle gains you want. still being a noob here myself I havent gotten to that part yet but from what I hear that will be alot more efficient than trying to do both at the same time.

EjnarKolinkar
09-28-2014, 09:35 AM
I am a noob but this is what i am seeing.... Been on deficit for 3 1/2 months 218 down to 169... Probably 25%+ bf not around 11%

Started with very low cals 1200 per day... Big losses... Stepped up to 1800 for a bit now at 2,050 trying to lose that last bit of fat over lower abs....

Been doing 4-6 days cardio and 4-5 days per week weight training.... Just stepped up my weight training to around an hour from previous of 35-40 minutes and reduced rest between to minimum....

With current 2,050 cals per day i find myself running out of gas during last 1-2 sets.... So think some amount of refeed may help....think refeed should be more like maint than an all out feed fest... Just some of my noob thoughts

OK well running out of gas on 1-2 sets of training isn't really a huge issue when dieting TBH.

If you are consistently bothered with low training energy you could reduce cardio to levels that allow for adequate training energy?

If you are in a really bad way you could take a week off your diet at maintenece, regroup and get your program off "more is better" and into "better is better" mode with training in the forefront.

Eating 400 more cals and more % of carbs for 1 day only has a minimal and short lived effect on training quality. It can boost performance but usually comes at the cost of slowing the diet.

IDK man your post doesent really seem like you are having much of a problem though now that you brought your calories up to semi reasonable. Maybe you just need to suck it up?



Well to me what it sounds like is your trying to bulk(add muscle) while on a cut. Granted the initial 1200 calories was too low the 1800 should be about right to cut on. ON your lifting I would suggest doing a good beginner program like stronglifts 5x5, starting strength or ice cream fitness and stick to that, with the cardio being optional.
And once you drop down to the weight you like, then do a slow bulk (adding only 200 calories or so over maintenance) for a bit til you get the muscle gains you want. still being a noob here myself I havent gotten to that part yet but from what I hear that will be alot more efficient than trying to do both at the same time.


wut?

libtolu
09-28-2014, 12:50 PM
A "Refeed" is simply a useful high cal day for psychological reasons and has no magical effects for losing weight. Personally my weekends usually end up being higher cal so I make sure I deadlift on monday to make use of the extra glycogen etc

If you're going to refeed, don't go mental, keep it at maintenance and position it either before or on a heavy training day.

Just my 0.2