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Blerk
09-24-2014, 01:17 PM
Hello BodyBuilding community!

This is my first post on the forum so I hope it is in the right spot.

My question is regarding the 'Meat and Nuts' breakfast. Is this an optimal breakfast for someone who does a fasted workout before breakfast?

I wake up at 5am and work out immediately. Then I shower and eat. A bit about me and my knowledge: complete noob who is 40 days into P90X. That's about it lol.

The reason I am interested in the Meat and Nuts diet is because I really hate eggs. A lot! I also want to lower my body fat and have some good energy levels through the day. However, Charles Poliquin himself recommends to load up on carbs after a workout. So I am a bit confused.

Any help, suggestions or comments are appreciated!
Thanks!

Gxp23
09-24-2014, 01:19 PM
As a complete noob like you said, you should take a read of this thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=156380183

Also, you can eat what ever you want for breakfast, you can eat carbs when ever you want, and if you train fasted, I hope its because its what suits you and not because you think its going to do anything special.

snorkelman
09-24-2014, 01:21 PM
...Charles Poliquin himself recommends to load up on carbs after a workout.

I would be careful following any advice from him on the topics of nutrition or supplementation.

Blerk
09-24-2014, 01:22 PM
...and if you train fasted, I hope its because its what suits you and not because you think its going to do anything special.

I have no time to cook first. That's about it. The wife cooks for me later on.

Bh44
09-24-2014, 01:23 PM
eat what you want, when you want composed primarily of whole/ minimally processed foods.

lowering BF% would be eating under you TDEE. If you hate eggs, don't eat them. Not hungry in the morning? don't eat in the morning.

The "meat and nuts diet" seems like a part of going keto. Some enjoy this, others do not. Its up to you to decide.

As a "complete noob" I would suggest following a beginner lifting program (Allpros, starting strength, fierce 5 etc.) and tracking calories.

this can all be found if you READ THE STICKIES at the top of forum.

Blerk
09-24-2014, 01:35 PM
Wow! Thanks for the quick replies! You guys are great!

I really thought that following a specific diet / meal plan mattered a lot. I don't quite understand the "eat what you want" part, but as stated above I should (and will) read the stickies :)

Thanks again for the information. I will check out the link about calories as well.

Any other suggestions, opinions and advice are welcome!

Cheers

snorkelman
09-24-2014, 01:41 PM
Any other suggestions, opinions and advice are welcome!



Feel free to ask follow-up questions after you have read the nutrition stickies. Believe me, you will view things very differently than you do currently.

Gxp23
09-24-2014, 01:42 PM
Wow! Thanks for the quick replies! You guys are great!

I really thought that following a specific diet / meal plan mattered a lot. I don't quite understand the "eat what you want" part, but as stated above I should (and will) read the stickies :)

Thanks again for the information. I will check out the link about calories as well.

Any other suggestions, opinions and advice are welcome!

Cheers

Read the link I posted in post #2.

PBateman2
09-24-2014, 03:41 PM
Try chocolate milk with your meat and nuts.

hwa12
09-24-2014, 03:50 PM
I don't quite understand the "eat what you want" part

A simple explanation: no single food item is "good" or "bad" for you. Your overall diet, however, needs to be aligned with your macro/micronutrient and calorie goals in order to make progress.

Lowpala
09-24-2014, 04:04 PM
lowering BF% would be eating under you TDEE.

Why does everyone on this site always go to this for lowering BF?! It is completely counter-productive to making any sort of gains in the gym.

LISS - Burns fat during workout.
HIIT - Burns fat during workout and for (up to) an additional 24 hours following.

And you can still GAIN lbm! You would think more people would push this idea across being that this is a health/fitness forum, instead of shoving some pre contest prep bs at amateur lifters.

Eating less than your body requires is not the healthiest way to lose weight (not fat, because you will lose everything).

OP, if you are doing P90x fasted in the morning you may want to consider taking a BCAA supplement when you wake up prior to your routine.

Gxp23
09-24-2014, 04:22 PM
Why does everyone on this site always go to this for lowering BF?! It is completely counter-productive to making any sort of gains in the gym.

LISS - Burns fat during workout.
HIIT - Burns fat during workout and for (up to) an additional 24 hours following.

And you can still GAIN lbm! You would think more people would push this idea across being that this is a health/fitness forum, instead of shoving some pre contest prep bs at amateur lifters.

Eating less than your body requires is not the healthiest way to lose weight (not fat, because you will lose everything).

OP, if you are doing P90x fasted in the morning you may want to consider taking a BCAA supplement when you wake up prior to your routine.

So if I am bulking on 4300 cals then start cutting at a 500 cal deficit, I am putting my health at risk although I am meeting my recommended intakes daily?

Trying to lose fat via HISS or LISS is just counter productive IMO if you are not in a deficit.

Lowpala
09-24-2014, 04:49 PM
So if I am bulking on 4300 cals then start cutting at a 500 cal deficit, I am putting my health at risk although I am meeting my recommended intakes daily?

Trying to lose fat via HISS or LISS is just counter productive IMO if you are not in a deficit.

If you are meeting your recommended intake then you are not in a deficit.

I didn't say you were putting yourself at risk (although depending on the deficit) but, it is not the healthiest way to go about it.

The point is, you can lose fat without being under recommended intake. I don't see how that could possibly be counter productive.

Counter productive IMO would be bulking in excess so that you gain too much fat, then cutting to lose the fat as well as some muscle gains.

Gxp23
09-24-2014, 05:10 PM
If you are meeting your recommended intake then you are not in a deficit.

I didn't say you were putting yourself at risk (although depending on the deficit) but, it is not the healthiest way to go about it.

The point is, you can lose fat without being under recommended intake. I don't see how that could possibly be counter productive.

Counter productive IMO would be bulking in excess so that you gain too much fat, then cutting to lose the fat as well as some muscle gains.

If my recommended intake is 0.8g of pro and 0.4g of fat, I can most certainly still hit all my intakes micros included while being in a deficit. My intakes have nothing to do with being in a deficit/maintenance/surplus. The fact is, IMO, even if you are lucky enough to make lean gains and lose fat without being in a deficit, or a beginner lifter, they will be minimal at best and would mean eating a smaller surplus, which would mean smaller lbm gains, Id rather make the most of it and cut when I get to a certain point rather than trying to make sure I am doing two things at once, thats why I find it counter productive.

Lowpala
09-24-2014, 05:22 PM
If my recommended intake is 0.8g of pro and 0.4g of fat, I can most certainly still hit all my intakes micros included while being in a deficit. My intakes have nothing to do with being in a deficit/maintenance/surplus. The fact is, IMO, even if you are lucky enough to make lean gains and lose fat without being in a deficit, or a beginner lifter, they will be minimal at best and would mean eating a smaller surplus, which would mean smaller lbm gains, Id rather make the most of it and cut when I get to a certain point rather than trying to make sure I am doing two things at once, thats why I find it counter productive.

I respect your opinion and thanks for explaining.

To each his own I suppose, different strokes for different folks. :)

I guess I just look at the "two things at once" as part of a total body fitness. When the whole body is working together for a common goal, heart/lungs/muscles/etc it works more efficiently.

Gxp23
09-24-2014, 05:33 PM
I respect your opinion and thanks for explaining.

To each his own I suppose, different strokes for different folks. :)

I guess I just look at the "two things at once" as part of a total body fitness. When the whole body is working together for a common goal, heart/lungs/muscles/etc it works more efficiently.

Oh yea, for sure, I still bulk and do my cardio (If I remember) dont get me wrong, same as I will when I cut. Yea like you said each to their own, valid points.

necon76
09-24-2014, 05:36 PM
Why does everyone on this site always go to this for lowering BF?! It is completely counter-productive to making any sort of gains in the gym.

LISS - Burns fat during workout.
HIIT - Burns fat during workout and for (up to) an additional 24 hours following.

And you can still GAIN lbm! You would think more people would push this idea across being that this is a health/fitness forum, instead of shoving some pre contest prep bs at amateur lifters.

Eating less than your body requires is not the healthiest way to lose weight (not fat, because you will lose everything).

OP, if you are doing P90x fasted in the morning you may want to consider taking a BCAA supplement when you wake up prior to your routine.


You cannot lose weight without being in a caloric deficit. End of story.

Lowpala
09-24-2014, 05:46 PM
You cannot lose weight without being in a caloric deficit. End of story.

Correct. But you can lose fat without being in one. End of story.

Technically speaking, you can burn fat faster than you can build muscle. So at least for some amount of time, you can lose overall body weight without being in a caloric deficit and while gaining LBM.

Blerk
09-24-2014, 05:56 PM
OP, if you are doing P90x fasted in the morning you may want to consider taking a BCAA supplement when you wake up prior to your routine.

Thanks Lowpala! Should I take the BCAA even though I work out immediately? Also, should I skip the breakfast protein shake?

Thanks everyone for your posts! I don't understand most of it yet, but I am trying to look it up as I go lol. First day here!

Cheers!

Lowpala
09-24-2014, 06:04 PM
Thanks Lowpala! Should I take the BCAA even though I work out immediately? Also, should I skip the breakfast protein shake?

Thanks everyone for your posts! I don't understand most of it yet, but I am trying to look it up as I go lol. First day here!

Cheers!

Have this a read, http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=164223481

It shows the effects of working out fasted with and without eaas/carbs, pretty interesting.

necon76
09-24-2014, 06:05 PM
Correct. But you can lose fat without being in one. End of story.

Technically speaking, you can burn fat faster than you can build muscle. So at least for some amount of time, you can lose overall body weight without being in a caloric deficit and while gaining LBM.


Meh. Recomping is an extremely slow process, & usually results in nothing but wheel spinning for natural lifters.

And your second point is true, but it only applies to rank beginners or those coming back after a very long layoff.

Lowpala
09-24-2014, 06:12 PM
Meh. Recomping is an extremely slow process, & usually results in nothing but wheel spinning for natural lifters.

And your second point is true, but it only applies to rank beginners or those coming back after a very long layoff.

Right, I suppose this is where my frustration comes in with all the deficit is the only way talk. More often than not, the poster questioning how to lose fat or whatever the case may be is novice lifter. Someone who could highly benefit from doing anything but cutting calories. How can you take advantage of those great newb gains without the fuel?

necon76
09-24-2014, 06:18 PM
Right, I suppose this is where my frustration comes in with all the deficit is the only way talk. More often than not, the poster questioning how to lose fat or whatever the case may be is novice lifter. Someone who could highly benefit from doing anything but cutting calories. How can you take advantage of those great newb gains without the fuel?


Given that his workout regime is P90X, I would assume that his focus is weight loss atm, as that is the aim of that particular program. Very few novices here are told to cut as soon as they start lifting unless they are considerably overweight to begin with.

Lowpala
09-24-2014, 06:24 PM
Given that his workout regime is P90X, I would assume that his focus is weight loss atm, as that is the aim of that particular program. Very few novices here are told to cut as soon as they start lifting unless they are considerably overweight to begin with.

You are probably right, I just assume unless stated otherwise (i mean this is bodybuilding.com) that they are trying to gain muscle. Even on a routine like p90x, a beginner would gain muscle.. given the calories.

Blerk
09-24-2014, 06:30 PM
You are probably right, I just assume unless stated otherwise (i mean this is bodybuilding.com) that they are trying to gain muscle. Even on a routine like p90x, a beginner would gain muscle.. given the calories.

The plan right now is to cut my excess fat (not much left), lower my body fat and to gain muscle (that's why I am here!)
After finishing p90x I will most likely go straight into a bodybuilding program to bulk up and get gains.

Thanks

Mdenatale
09-24-2014, 07:00 PM
Correct. But you can lose fat without being in one. End of story.

Technically speaking, you can burn fat faster than you can build muscle. So at least for some amount of time, you can lose overall body weight without being in a caloric deficit and while gaining LBM.

I'm curious about how this works. Let's say 3000 calories maintains my weight. If I eat 2500 calories I'm in a 500 calorie deficit and will lose weight, most/all will be fat if my macros are in line and I weight train. If I eat 3000 calories, macros in line, etc and I burn 500 calories a day through cardio I'll have the same caloric deficit and I'll lose just the same. How are these two scenarios different?

Lowpala
09-24-2014, 07:15 PM
I'm curious about how this works. Let's say 3000 calories maintains my weight. If I eat 2500 calories I'm in a 500 calorie deficit and will lose weight, most/all will be fat if my macros are in line and I weight train. If I eat 3000 calories, macros in line, etc and I burn 500 calories a day through cardio I'll have the same caloric deficit and I'll lose just the same. How are these two scenarios different?

Well the two scenarios you laid out seem exactly the same. But there is a difference.

Eating a 500 calorie deficit, nets you weight loss because of the lack of calories to maintain the current weight, your body basically using its own mass for energy. Catabolic

HIIT (for example) on the other hand, is actually targeting fat - all while creating an extremely anabolic environment. HIIT activates the burn fat switch in your body but at the same time increases protein synthesis. Anabolic

These are far from correct terminologies, just trying to explain it the best I can.

Blerk
09-25-2014, 12:10 PM
Hello again!

Are there any websites/documentaries that are good for learning the basics of nutrition?

I have read through a number of posts on here already, but I am getting a bit overloaded. Maybe something a bit more basic?

Thanks everyone!
Cheers

Gxp23
09-25-2014, 01:09 PM
Hello again!

Are there any websites/documentaries that are good for learning the basics of nutrition?

I have read through a number of posts on here already, but I am getting a bit overloaded. Maybe something a bit more basic?

Thanks everyone!
Cheers

You are posting on one....

Blerk
09-25-2014, 01:14 PM
You are posting on one....

Yup. As I mentioned above it is a bit over my head still. Looking for some really beginner stuff. More of an introductory rather than intermediate level.

Thanks

Mdenatale
09-25-2014, 01:28 PM
Well the two scenarios you laid out seem exactly the same. But there is a difference.

Eating a 500 calorie deficit, nets you weight loss because of the lack of calories to maintain the current weight, your body basically using its own mass for energy. Catabolic

HIIT (for example) on the other hand, is actually targeting fat - all while creating an extremely anabolic environment. HIIT activates the burn fat switch in your body but at the same time increases protein synthesis. Anabolic

These are far from correct terminologies, just trying to explain it the best I can.

Your net caloric intake is still a 500 calorie deficit so you would lose weight either way. You are experiencing catabolism in both circumstances. The body will use stored fat in both cases to make up the shortfall in energy. Weight training at a high intensity will keep the body from using muscle mass as a source of energy. Without weight training your body would be just as likely to scavenge energy from muscle mass in both scenarios. Both methods will get you to the same result.

snorkelman
09-25-2014, 02:06 PM
Lowpala, I just quickly glanced at parts of your responses, but are you saying that you don't like how posters in this forum advise people to reduce caloric intake below TDEE in order to achieve a goal or fatloss?

If yes, it seems like maybe you are also saying that another option is to eat above TDEE and just bust ass in the gym. Is that correct?

If "yes" to both of the above questions, don't both of these options result in ingesting fewer calories than the body uses (the second scenario is just upping the "calories out" side of the equation)?

Gxp23
09-25-2014, 02:25 PM
Yup. As I mentioned above it is a bit over my head still. Looking for some really beginner stuff. More of an introductory rather than intermediate level.

Thanks

Again, it is all here on this site.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=136691851

Nutrition for newbs ^

Blerk
09-25-2014, 02:45 PM
Again, it is all here on this site.

Nutrition for newbs ^

I have read about 5 of those and some of it is still above my head.
Perhaps I would benefit more from "nutrition for kids" :)

It's just above my head. Not sure what else to say.

Any OTHER sites?

Thanks!

Gxp23
09-25-2014, 04:10 PM
I have read about 5 of those and some of it is still above my head.
Perhaps I would benefit more from "nutrition for kids" :)

It's just above my head. Not sure what else to say.

Any OTHER sites?

Thanks!

Im really sorry, I am, but I dont know how this can be above your head, I dont know of any other sites that could possibly explain it any simpler.

Lowpala
09-25-2014, 04:17 PM
I have read about 5 of those and some of it is still above my head.
Perhaps I would benefit more from "nutrition for kids" :)

It's just above my head. Not sure what else to say.

Any OTHER sites?

Thanks!

What exactly are you wanting to know? Be specific.

Blerk
09-25-2014, 04:28 PM
Im really sorry, I am, but I dont know how this can be above your head, I dont know of any other sites that could possibly explain it any simpler.
It's ok - I am just brand new to this stuff. Imagine yourself taking a "noob" class for neuroscience. It would make a bit of sense, but you wouldn't be good to go.


What exactly are you wanting to know? Be specific.
I would like to understand how to build my diet. I understand the whole carbs, protein and fat part, but I don't yet know how to balance it with the macro/micro nutrients. I would like to do the work on my own, but I guess I just need the right level to start at.

Thanks for your patience. I will get it eventually - only my second day here :)
Cheers

Lowpala
09-25-2014, 04:36 PM
Lowpala, I just quickly glanced at parts of your responses, but are you saying that you don't like how posters in this forum advise people to reduce caloric intake below TDEE in order to achieve a goal or fatloss?

If yes, it seems like maybe you are also saying that another option is to eat above TDEE and just bust ass in the gym. Is that correct?

If "yes" to both of the above questions, don't both of these options result in ingesting fewer calories than the body uses (the second scenario is just upping the "calories out" side of the equation)?

For beginners it is very typical to see fat loss while increasing lbm. Busting ass in the gym, but still being in a surplus.

Without the calories though, it won't happen.

I just wish more people would be open minded about the concept. I consider myself to be an intermediate lifter, I am continuing to cut BF while gaining LBM between .5-1lb week.

Lowpala
09-25-2014, 04:39 PM
I would like to understand how to build my diet. I understand the whole carbs, protein and fat part, but I don't yet know how to balance it with the macro/micro nutrients. I would like to do the work on my own, but I guess I just need the right level to start at.

Thanks for your patience. I will get it eventually - only my second day here :)
Cheers

Have you read through, http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=136691851

Blerk
09-25-2014, 04:44 PM
Not all of the links. I read through the ones with titles that related to my interests, though.
For example I have read 'Nutrition - Information Sites' and 'Sources and Macro & Micronutrients Explained!' along with others. Perhaps I can continue to read them over and over if this is as simple as it gets.

Thanks

Lowpala
09-25-2014, 04:49 PM
Not all of the links. I read through the ones with titles that related to my interests, though.
For example I have read 'Nutrition - Information Sites' and 'Sources and Macro & Micronutrients Explained!' along with others. Perhaps I can continue to read them over and over if this is as simple as it gets.

Thanks

Do that, then come back with any concerns you have. "How to build my diet" is a very broad statement.

You do need to figure out your macros though, how many fats, carbs, proteins you require a day. All depending on your activity level, size, goals, etc.

From that point, putting together a diet that will fit those requirements is the easy part.

Blerk
09-25-2014, 04:50 PM
Do that, then come back with any concerns you have. "How to build my diet" is a very broad statement.

You do need to figure out your macros though, how many fats, carbs, proteins you require a day. All depending on your activity level, size, goals, etc.

From that point, putting together a diet that will fit those requirements is the easy part.

Will do! Thanks guys

Mdenatale
09-25-2014, 06:23 PM
For beginners it is very typical to see fat loss while increasing lbm. Busting ass in the gym, but still being in a surplus.

Without the calories though, it won't happen.

I just wish more people would be open minded about the concept. I consider myself to be an intermediate lifter, I am continuing to cut BF while gaining LBM between .5-1lb week.

Sorry, but I'm very skeptical of your claims. You are at an intermediate stage, but you are able to drop fat and gain up to 1lb of LBM every week? So 3 months from now you expect to have 6 to 12 lbs more LBM and less body fat than you have now? What about 6 months from now?

Gxp23
09-25-2014, 06:25 PM
Sorry, but I'm very skeptical of your claims. You are at an intermediate stage, but you are able to drop fat and gain up to 1lb of LBM every week? So 3 months from now you expect to have 6 to 12 lbs more LBM and less body fat than you have now? What about 6 months from now?

Yea, there must be a typo there.

Lowpala
09-25-2014, 07:00 PM
Sorry, but I'm very skeptical of your claims. You are at an intermediate stage, but you are able to drop fat and gain up to 1lb of LBM every week? So 3 months from now you expect to have 6 to 12 lbs more LBM and less body fat than you have now? What about 6 months from now?

In the last 30 days I gained 3lbs of LBM, consuming close to 5,000 calories/day. Of course as I get closer and closer to my genetic potential this will slow down considerably, though at 178lbs I think I am far from that. My goal is to be at 185 lbs by the end of this year, so that is about 7 lbs in 3 months.. just over .5 lb/week. As far as BF is concerned, getting much lower than I am currently would most likely take some more extreme measures ie; cutting.

Look, I am not here to have you stroke my ego and have no reason to make some bs claims. I am just trying to enlighten others to something that may (or may not) work as well for them as it has for me.

AFC96
09-25-2014, 07:05 PM
Holyyyyy mollyyy...

Tell us your stacks already.. with their doses.

Gxp23
09-25-2014, 07:15 PM
In the last 30 days I gained 3lbs of LBM, consuming close to 5,000 calories/day. Of course as I get closer and closer to my genetic potential this will slow down considerably, though at 178lbs I think I am far from that. My goal is to be at 185 lbs by the end of this year, so that is about 7 lbs in 3 months.. just over .5 lb/week. As far as BF is concerned, getting much lower than I am currently would most likely take some more extreme measures ie; cutting.

Look, I am not here to have you stroke my ego and have no reason to make some bs claims. I am just trying to enlighten others to something that may (or may not) work as well for them as it has for me.

How are you measuring these gains? If you dont mind me asking?

Lowpala
09-25-2014, 07:31 PM
How are you measuring these gains? If you dont mind me asking?

I measure my overall weight on a balance scale, taken everyday at the same time, averaged over a week. BF in my opinion is best measured by looking at the mirror/taking frequent same pose pictures. This obviously won't give me an actual number but I can easily see whether I am increasing or decreasing.


Holyyyyy mollyyy...

Tell us your stacks already.. with their doses.

Mr. Hyde - 1 Scoop

I used to be a coffee only pre workout, but I feel so drained after work this really helps get me going. :)

AFC96
09-25-2014, 07:34 PM
I measure my overall weight on a balance scale, taken everyday at the same time, averaged over a week. BF in my opinion is best measured by looking at the mirror/taking frequent same pose pictures. This obviously won't give me an actual number but I can easily see whether I am increasing or decreasing.

And whats the secret?

digistp
09-25-2014, 07:51 PM
And whats the secret?
lol what do you think

Mdenatale
09-25-2014, 08:00 PM
In the last 30 days I gained 3lbs of LBM, consuming close to 5,000 calories/day. Of course as I get closer and closer to my genetic potential this will slow down considerably, though at 178lbs I think I am far from that. My goal is to be at 185 lbs by the end of this year, so that is about 7 lbs in 3 months.. just over .5 lb/week. As far as BF is concerned, getting much lower than I am currently would most likely take some more extreme measures ie; cutting.

Look, I am not here to have you stroke my ego and have no reason to make some bs claims. I am just trying to enlighten others to something that may (or may not) work as well for them as it has for me.




So you are actually slowly bulking. And if you want to get leaner you will need to cut. I think that is all pretty normal and what is suggested by most people here.

Lowpala
09-25-2014, 08:01 PM
And whats the secret?

No secret brah. Gains are pretty average honestly.

Wait.. this is BB it is a secret, eat a shyt ton of food to get enough calories in order to put on lbm while busting balls on hiit to negate any fat gains.

There ya go, exposed.

Lowpala
09-25-2014, 08:11 PM
So you are actually slowly bulking. And if you want to get leaner you will need to cut. I think that is all pretty normal and what is suggested by most people here.

At the point I am at now yes... once your body gets sub 10% Bf that is pretty typical. But that is far from where I started.

I was talking about offering advice to beginners who on average are probably 15%+ bf.

I give up. This is exactly the mind set that is so frustrating about this forum! No one is open to anything besides what they "know". And will do everything to discredit or disprove anyone thinking outside of this realm of greatness. Pfft.

Mdenatale
09-25-2014, 08:43 PM
At the point I am at now yes... once your body gets sub 10% Bf that is pretty typical. But that is far from where I started.

I was talking about offering advice to beginners who on average are probably 15%+ bf.

I give up. This is exactly the mind set that is so frustrating about this forum! No one is open to anything besides what they "know". And will do everything to discredit or disprove anyone thinking outside of this realm of greatness. Pfft.

I'm open to new ideas, but you haven't described much of anything new. It is all balance between calories in and calories burned. If you want to lose fat you need to burn more than you eat. Some choose to do that by eating less and some, including you, prefer to do it by increasing activity and burning more. There may come a time you need to do both to get really lean. You don't agree with this?

KimchiNinja
09-26-2014, 05:03 AM
Shockingly humans on the internet have no idea what they are talking about. But one thing we do know -- "calories in calories out" is not how it works.

AFC96
09-26-2014, 05:06 AM
Shockingly humans on the internet have no idea what they are talking about. But one thing we do know -- "calories in calories out" is not how it works.

So how do they work?

KimchiNinja
09-26-2014, 05:10 AM
So how do they work?

It's complicated (biology), something things we know, but nobody yet fully understands it.

Mncdk
09-26-2014, 05:12 AM
How do magnets work?

KimchiNinja
09-26-2014, 05:16 AM
How do magnets work?

That part we know.

Mdenatale
09-26-2014, 07:13 AM
Shockingly humans on the internet have no idea what they are talking about. But one thing we do know -- "calories in calories out" is not how it works.

My better judgement says I shouldn't respond to you because you are nothing but an idiotic food extremist, but anyway...


Besides the science behind weight loss and gain being all about calories in calories out I can tell you from my own personal experience that is 100% fact. Over the past 2 years since figuring this idea out I have been able to modulate my weight up and down with incredible predictability through calorie control. I can set a target weight and time frame I want to hit it and I can calculate a caloric intake that will have me hit that goal within a week or two of the prediction. Other than a medical condition there is no reason why any other human couldn't do the same with proper diligence and self control.

Lowpala
09-26-2014, 04:05 PM
I'm open to new ideas, but you haven't described much of anything new. It is all balance between calories in and calories burned. If you want to lose fat you need to burn more than you eat. Some choose to do that by eating less and some, including you, prefer to do it by increasing activity and burning more. There may come a time you need to do both to get really lean. You don't agree with this?

Specifically, "If you want to lose fat you need to burn more than you eat" I do not agree with, at all.

And this isn't my idea, or a new idea for that matter.. this is just how the body works. You CAN lose fat while in a caloric surplus AND gain LBM simultaneously.
-This is what the debate was on, not the whole calorie in calorie out shenanigans.

Look at this, http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=162468511
And this is a daily thing here on the ol' bb forum! Telling this guy to cut? Seriously?!

The only time, IMO someone should cut is for contest prep. Otherwise, quit being lazy, take care of your body and watch for yourself the results that will come barreling at you.

You want to gain muscle? You want to get stronger? You want to BURN fat? Don't cut! Eat enough damn food to give your body the nourishment it needs to accomplish that.

My maintenance is 3,500 cals/day. I take in on average 4,800 cals/day, some days I am pushing 6,000 cals. May 30th I was 155 lbs @ 12-13%BF, today I am 179 lbs at <8%BF. I never cut, ate like a beast the whole time.

digistp
09-26-2014, 04:17 PM
I thought this discussion was about natural progression

Mdenatale
09-26-2014, 05:13 PM
Specifically, "If you want to lose fat you need to burn more than you eat" I do not agree with, at all.

And this isn't my idea, or a new idea for that matter.. this is just how the body works. You CAN lose fat while in a caloric surplus AND gain LBM simultaneously.
-This is what the debate was on, not the whole calorie in calorie out shenanigans.

Look at this, http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=162468511
And this is a daily thing here on the ol' bb forum! Telling this guy to cut? Seriously?!

The only time, IMO someone should cut is for contest prep. Otherwise, quit being lazy, take care of your body and watch for yourself the results that will come barreling at you.

You want to gain muscle? You want to get stronger? You want to BURN fat? Don't cut! Eat enough damn food to give your body the nourishment it needs to accomplish that.

My maintenance is 3,500 cals/day. I take in on average 4,800 cals/day, some days I am pushing 6,000 cals. May 30th I was 155 lbs @ 12-13%BF, today I am 179 lbs at <8%BF. I never cut, ate like a beast the whole time.

So in 4 months you gained almost 29lbs of LBM and lost almost 6lbs of fat. I'm not I would believe that even if you were juiced to the hilt.

And in that thread the advice on how to proceed was about split 50/50 and the guy decided to bulk. Most of the people I see on here tend to recommend bulking over cutting unless the person is really over weight.

silverlightning
09-26-2014, 05:43 PM
i like a balance of protein, carbs, fats at all meals. eat according to your training and goals.

silverlightning
09-26-2014, 05:50 PM
Why does everyone on this site always go to this for lowering BF?! It is completely counter-productive to making any sort of gains in the gym.

LISS - Burns fat during workout.
HIIT - Burns fat during workout and for (up to) an additional 24 hours following.

And you can still GAIN lbm! You would think more people would push this idea across being that this is a health/fitness forum, instead of shoving some pre contest prep bs at amateur lifters.

Eating less than your body requires is not the healthiest way to lose weight (not fat, because you will lose everything).

OP, if you are doing P90x fasted in the morning you may want to consider taking a BCAA supplement when you wake up prior to your routine.

it is if you're obese. how else will you lose weight? additional BCAA isn't always needed if you're getting enough protein from meats, eggs, milk.

silverlightning
09-26-2014, 05:56 PM
Meh. Recomping is an extremely slow process, & usually results in nothing but wheel spinning for natural lifters.

And your second point is true, but it only applies to rank beginners or those coming back after a very long layoff.

that really depends on the person and how they respond to training/food. there are no guarantees for newbs or previous people coming back into it.

silverlightning
09-26-2014, 05:57 PM
OP, add whole eggs to your protein shake, you can't even taste the eggs. great source of protein for cheap. and 2x on the chocolate milk.

Lowpala
09-26-2014, 06:24 PM
it is if you're obese. how else will you lose weight? additional BCAA isn't always needed if you're getting enough protein from meats, eggs, milk.

OP said he trains fasted in the morning, so a BCAA would be beneficial prior to training.

Lowpala
09-26-2014, 06:48 PM
So in 4 months you gained almost 29lbs of LBM and lost almost 6lbs of fat. I'm not I would believe that even if you were juiced to the hilt.

And in that thread the advice on how to proceed was about split 50/50 and the guy decided to bulk. Most of the people I see on here tend to recommend bulking over cutting unless the person is really over weight.

Ok if you say so. Like I said, it's outside the realm of "knowledge" you wouldn't understand. Keep up the good work!

Hemogoblin
09-26-2014, 06:55 PM
Hello BodyBuilding community!

This is my first post on the forum so I hope it is in the right spot.

My question is regarding the 'Meat and Nuts' breakfast. Is this an optimal breakfast for someone who does a fasted workout before breakfast?

I wake up at 5am and work out immediately. Then I shower and eat. A bit about me and my knowledge: complete noob who is 40 days into P90X. That's about it lol.

The reason I am interested in the Meat and Nuts diet is because I really hate eggs. A lot! I also want to lower my body fat and have some good energy levels through the day. However, Charles Poliquin himself recommends to load up on carbs after a workout. So I am a bit confused.

Any help, suggestions or comments are appreciated!
Thanks!

I'd say that pretty much "anything" works. Just look at the myriad of diets and plans out there: there is always someone who followed one of those plans and made gains, etc. They all work.

I guess the answer here is to just try it and see how you go.

silverlightning
09-26-2014, 07:16 PM
OP said he trains fasted in the morning, so a BCAA would be beneficial prior to training.

beneficial in which way?

KimchiNinja
09-26-2014, 09:10 PM
Besides the science behind weight loss and gain being all about calories in calories out...

Except for all the parts of the science which you ignored because they didn't fit your beliefs...

Mdenatale
09-26-2014, 10:01 PM
Except for all the parts of the science which you ignored because they didn't fit your beliefs...

I'm not ignoring the science. I know that some foods can effect some people in a variety of ways, but there is zero science that says you will gain weight without eating and excess of calories or lose weight without eating in a deficit. None. It does not exist. Show me one study where someone gained weight without eating above maintenance, an excess of calories.

zakurum
09-26-2014, 10:10 PM
I have no time to cook first. That's about it. The wife cooks for me later on.

Advice, learn to cook. Simple stir fry takes 15 minutes(time to steam rice).

It really does come down to how you properly feed your body, but learning how to improve the quality and flavor(a much maligned quality on these forums) will improve both your sanity and the ease of commitment.

Your mental discipline might be able to go:
Meal 1:
Eggs, shake, cottage cheese, multivitamin
Meal 2:
Tuna, Kale salad, almonds
Meal 3:
Chicken breast, rice, hard boiled egg
(please understand just examples and not a necessarily proper or acceptable diet)
But I find that after a week of hard lined meals like this I am bored and my motivation drops.

Now if you learned to cook and your meals went

Meal 1:
Ham, spinach and broccoli omelet with cheddar cheese
Meal 2:
Seared salmon with red pepper aoili and garlic wilted spinach
Meal 3:
Chicken breast sauteed with spinach, slivered almonds and apples in a spicy mustard and mirin sauce

See how they are pretty similar but it's much easier to remain sane on the second than the first.

Learn to cook, it will keep you sane. And if you are going to spend all the time to practice honing your body and perfecting your diet, why not perfect the way you prepare that nutrition.

KimchiNinja
09-26-2014, 10:53 PM
I'm not ignoring the science. I know that some foods can effect some people in a variety of ways, but there is zero science that says you will gain weight without eating and excess of calories or lose weight without eating in a deficit. None. It does not exist. Show me one study where someone gained weight without eating above maintenance, an excess of calories.

It's an incomplete/myopic way of looking at things since what kinds of things you eat determines 1) how much you eat, 2) metabolic rate, 3) how well you mobilize the fat stores when you stop eating, etc. Best to just throw the broken/outdated CICO formula in the trash and focus on WHAT you eat.

Mncdk
09-26-2014, 11:09 PM
And this isn't my idea, or a new idea for that matter.. this is just how the body works. You CAN lose fat while in a caloric surplus AND gain LBM simultaneously.
Maybe it's just me, but I can't see the scenario where the body goes to the trouble of retrieving energy from fat stores when you continuously provide sufficient energy for operation - actually a surplus of energy.

But it's going to be interesting to see the scientific data you are going to provide, to back up that claim.

KimchiNinja
09-26-2014, 11:25 PM
But it's going to be interesting to see the scientific data...

On a more general note you guys should cool it with the desperate appeals to science.

Nutrition science is almost all bull****; it's massively warped by industry investment, it has backtested horribly, and besides few here are capable of reading the studies and understanding what they say. You are just reading bad science and then on top of THAT misinterpreting the bad science. LOL.

If this were the field of physics it would be different, since that science is real.

Mncdk
09-26-2014, 11:43 PM
I'd rather figure out which studies are good and which are bad, than have to rely on anecdotes.

KimchiNinja
09-26-2014, 11:53 PM
I'd rather figure out which studies are good and which are bad, than have to rely on anecdotes.

Not possible for the general population...though perhaps a few exceptionally intelligent people with a lot of time on their hands can do it.

Mncdk
09-26-2014, 11:55 PM
*raises hand*

Lowpala
09-27-2014, 07:57 AM
On a more general note you guys should cool it with the desperate appeals to science.

Nutrition science is almost all bull****; it's massively warped by industry investment, it has backtested horribly, and besides few here are capable of reading the studies and understanding what they say. You are just reading bad science and then on top of THAT misinterpreting the bad science. LOL.

If this were the field of physics it would be different, since that science is real.

This is one of the best posts I have read on this forum. Most every study I have read are so incredibly one sided/staged it is ridiculous.

I don't need to post any studies because my body is my own scientific experiment, you all should be doing the same thing and quit believing everything you read on the interwebz.

Mncdk
09-27-2014, 08:06 AM
quit believing everything you read on the interwebz.
Such as burning fat in a surplus? Gotcha.

Lowpala
09-27-2014, 08:53 AM
Such as burning fat in a surplus? Gotcha.

You obviously don't quite understand how cardio affects the body.

Mdenatale
09-27-2014, 09:01 AM
It's an incomplete/myopic way of looking at things since what kinds of things you eat determines 1) how much you eat, 2) metabolic rate, 3) how well you mobilize the fat stores when you stop eating, etc. Best to just throw the broken/outdated CICO formula in the trash and focus on WHAT you eat.

I'll just give you my last comment on this debate, since we will have to agree to disagree. In my personal experience all I have to do is stick close to my macro goal for protein and fat and I can move my weight up and down with total control and precision by altering my caloric intake.




Ok if you say so. Like I said, it's outside the realm of "knowledge" you wouldn't understand. Keep up the good work!

Although I have a very hard time believing some of your claims, I will give you credit and thanks for getting me to look more into HIIT. I think it is worth giving a try. I did my first session this morning and it pretty much kicked my ass, lol. Felt good though and I'll see how it helps with my over all goals.



Such as burning fat in a surplus? Gotcha.

Yeah, that one is a bit hard to believe. I think recomp is certainly possible, but I am very skeptical of Lowpala's claims of +29lbs LBM while dropping 6lbs of fat. Sounds WAY too good to be true. But who knows...

Lowpala
09-27-2014, 09:03 AM
Check this out, of course there are reads that go into way more detail but this gives a general overview:

HIIT for Fat Loss
Another big element people always identify as “what’s wrong” with their health is producing results, which in this context will be achieving fat loss. HIIT cardio seems to be the most optimal exercise strategy to achieve fat loss when performing cardiovascular aerobic work.
(3) In a 2008 study, the researchers showed that high-intensity intermittent exercise led to a significant decrease in central abdominal fat, whereas the steady state intensity and control group had non-significant decreases in central abdominal fat.
(5) To support this, research from the University of Lethbridge showed that six weeks of HIIT three times per week reduced both body fat and waist circumference.
(6) Furthermore a study conducted by Wilson et al. From the University of Tampa, shows when you add in LISS you get a temporary boost in weight loss. Subjects lost a couple of pounds the first week and after that they lost nothing. This happened because their metabolism completely adjusted to that and it became their new set point to what they had to do just to maintain.
A huge adaptation that HIIT cardio makes is small changes to your metabolism as well as activates fat burning enzymes. If you want to change your metabolism, you have to increase muscle mass and increase your muscle’s oxidative capacity. Your muscles have these energy producing units called ‘mitochondria’ and this is where ATP are made and fats are burned. The more mitochondria you have and the more active they are the greater oxidative capacity you will have for fat loss. HIIT increases mitochondrial capacity and you actually increase the amount of mitochondria you produce.
(7) In a new study by Perry and colleagues showed that interval training, repeated bouts of “all out” exercise (HIIT intervals), result in comparable adaptations in both performance and skeletal muscle metabolism. Specifically increases in markers of mitochondrial density in muscle which could improve fat loss capacity. The mitochondria is known as the power house of cells, where fats are mainly oxidized. It seems these short “all out” sprints increase the skeletal muscle mitochondria and allows fats and carbohydrates to be used more efficiently to burn fat and thus improve fat loss capacity. These findings are also supported by Scribbans et al.
(8) Dr. Layne Norton stated “The body is very adaptive. We tend to see a lot of people doing hours and hours a week of LISS and according to calculations they should be losing pounds, but they can’t lose anything because your metabolism adjusts to low intensity exercise. It just doesn’t cut it because it’s just a calorie burn at that time, not 24 hour energy expenditure like HIIT cardio induces.”
If you do LISS all the time, you’re basically trading calories in and calories out and you can cut these same calories through diet and still get the same effects. For example: You burn 200 calories over 30 minutes of LISS, you can cut out 200 calories through carbs or fat and basically get the same effect as opposed to getting a 24 hour energy expenditure through HIIT cardio.
(3) We will leave you with Trapp et al’s conclusion:
“The high intensity interval training produced a greater fat reduction effect compared to steady state intensity, this supports the results from Tremblay et al. Despite exercising half the time, HIIT subjects in the present study lost 11.2% of total fat mass with steady state subjects experiencing no fat loss. Collectively, these results demonstrate that intermittent sprinting compared to steady state is a more effective and efficient way of controlling body composition.”
HIIT for more Muscle Retention
A very key element when dieting is muscle retention and keeping metabolic rate elevated. The more muscle mass you have, the better the chance you have for keeping metabolic rate high. Thus you must be able to retain muscle mass when in a calorie deficit. HIIT cardio seems to be the best exercise strategy for muscle retention.
(3) A study by Trapp et al. showed subjects in the high intensity interval group gained lean mass in their legs compared to the steady state intensity and control group.
(4) Moreover, Burgomaster et al. stated that the very intense nature of sprint interval training might stimulate rapid skeletal muscle remodeling (possibly due to fiber recruitment), whereas adaptations to lower intensity accrue more slowly.
(6) Furthermore, Wilson et al. found that LISS caused more muscle loss than HIIT. HIIT caused more muscle retention because when you are doing LISS (say fast paced walking) you’re not activating muscles the same way as if you were lifting weights. So when you sprint you have hip flexion, knee extension, and these are all weightlifting movements. Think squats, leg presses, leg extensions, etc. HIIT is another way to overload the muscle and activate the type II muscle fibers.
The above study by Wilson et al. is hard to argue with because the point about HIIT activating hip and knee movements. Hip flexion and knee extension are the same movements when doing leg workouts. Also, by doing high intensity work you are activating muscle fibers and anytime you activate muscle fibers you are primed for growth. LISS unfortunately can’t stimulate muscle fibers the same way.
Now if you have never performed high intensity intervals, you will notice that the burning sensation is very similar to a high rep leg workout. This supports one of the three mechanisms of hypertrophy, cell swelling[i]. Think of cell swelling like a balloon, you keep blowing air into it, and it will eventually pop. When the cell is getting stretched and it is also swelling, there are these other cells that sense this stress and stretch and they try to avoid this bursting of the cell from stretching and it then increases protein synthesis, decreases protein breakdown, and thus leads to hypertrophy. There are some trends with HIIT data leading towards causing some cell swelling. (9)

Taken from, http://www.biolayne.com/training/guest-post-the-science-of-hiit-cardio-by-chris-eric-martinez-the-dynamic-duo/

Mncdk
09-27-2014, 11:41 AM
ITT: amount of calories for maintenance is static.

edit:
And yes I did read all of that. I hoped that you had provided some good information, but alas, nothing new.

Mrpb
09-27-2014, 11:52 AM
So in 4 months you gained almost 29lbs of LBM and lost almost 6lbs of fat. I'm not I would believe that even if you were juiced to the hilt.

+1.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html/

Lowpala
09-27-2014, 01:49 PM
I don't know what to tell you guys. You clearly need to lay off the, "but it says right here you can only do this!" and start experimenting with your own body and your own potential.

So yeah, in about four months I have gotten results that, by your standards, should have taken me years. Clearly your information is faulted.



ITT: amount of calories for maintenance is static.

edit:
And yes I did read all of that. I hoped that you had provided some good information, but alas, nothing new.

You could have been gaining muscle and getting shredded this entire time. Good job on your weight loss btw! But, I am just saying there is a more efficient, healthy way to go about it.
Actually I said none of this was new, just that no one here is willing to accept it. For whatever reason is beyond me.

End of the story. Blerk, sorry for the serious thread crash.

Mncdk
09-27-2014, 02:09 PM
You clearly need to lay off the, "but it says right here you can only do this!"
Come back to us when you manage to disprove thermodynamics, will ya?

The reason we don't take you seriously is that you have no clue about something as simple as maintenance, and your route to sick gains is purely anecdotal. And most likely a fabrication.

Lowpala
09-27-2014, 02:27 PM
We started around the same time. So I will just let our results speak for themselves.

I will take you seriously when you actually step foot in a gym. Your knowledge of biology has netted you no gains.

My lack of knowledge on biology, but experience with how different forms of exercise affect the body has netted me gains.

Off to the gym, fabricating these muscles.

KimchiNinja
09-27-2014, 05:34 PM
Come back to us when you manage to disprove thermodynamics, will ya?

Thermodynamics is correct. Applying thermodynamics to animals is incorrect. Biochemistry is the correct "law", and it's very complicated.

Mdenatale
09-27-2014, 07:28 PM
Thermodynamics is correct. Applying thermodynamics to animals is incorrect. Biochemistry is the correct "law", and it's very complicated.


The details may be complcated, but the basic are quite simple and straight forward. The ability to analyze data and self control are all that is needed.

Mrpb
09-28-2014, 12:14 AM
From the other thread, referring to KimchiNinja:


Guys it's a pointless effort, he's simply a poor forum troll who has been banned on multiple occasions for these exact sort of actions on pointless "debates" he attempts to engage in.

Best not to waste the time, you're simply feeding him.

Blerk
09-29-2014, 08:09 AM
Thank you guys for all of the advice and information! I have started to learn a lot more about macros and how to balance my food for the day.

I appreciate all of the suggestions and I will have to try them out and get back to you on how it worked. A lot of the off-topic stuff is way over my head still, but that will come in time I guess lol
Thanks
Cheers!