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bodyhard
06-12-2014, 01:41 PM
Who say supplements are no good, waste of money bad for your health etc etc I have a question for you.

I since went to get a complete physical and then went to a cardiologist to check my heart (I have had deaths in my family rather sudden in the last two years due to heart conditions) and the doctor not only gave me a clean bill of health but told me I was in excellent shape.

Now I am not talking about muscle/LBM etc etc, I am talking about blood pressure, liver, kidney, cholesterol, heart, skin etc etc.

So the question?

Now aside from the fact that I attribute my build to supplementation, If supplements are bad for you (and keep in mind I have been taking supps since the 80's till now) then how come I am in such good health from the inside?

cowboybiker
06-12-2014, 01:47 PM
how come I am in such good health from the inside?

Squats and deads.

But if you ask me, I think you need to add more bacon to your diet.

If you need, I can get you a script for bacon from my doc.

Fishman15
06-12-2014, 02:15 PM
Who say supplements are no good, waste of money bad for your health etc etc I have a question for you.

I since went to get a complete physical and then went to a cardiologist to check my heart (I have had deaths in my family rather sudden in the last two years due to heart conditions) and the doctor not only gave me a clean bill of health but told me I was in excellent shape.

Now I am not talking about muscle/LBM etc etc, I am talking about blood pressure, liver, kidney, cholesterol, heart, skin etc etc.

So the question?

Now aside from the fact that I attribute my build to supplementation, If supplements are bad for you (and keep in mind I have been taking supps since the 80's till now) then how come I am in such good health from the inside?

You do or don't attribute your build to supplementation? I would say your build is much more from mass hard work in the gym. I assume that was just a typo? Still waiting for your list of supps too...

theKurp
06-12-2014, 02:18 PM
It's not uncommon for people who smoke to have pristine blood chemistry results. By the same token, people can do everything right and have poor blood chemistry readings.

bodyhard
06-12-2014, 02:20 PM
You do or don't attribute your build to supplementation? I would say your build is much more from mass hard work in the gym. I assume that was just a typo? Still waiting for your list of supps too...

No I attribute my build to supplements. I don't believe for a second I would have achieved the build I have over the years with food alone. although others might think otherwise I say f'ck em they are not me, they don't know my body and never will.

But that is another topic, my question is more on why some folks believe supps are bad for you.

MarkDL
06-12-2014, 02:42 PM
Supplements are gay. Am I doing this correctly?

Guinea-pig
06-12-2014, 02:57 PM
Hey BH !
How do you know which nutrients you really need?
When you get blood work done do you include amino acid analyis ?
Just like training not all or any supplementation works for everyone.

x-trainer ben
06-12-2014, 04:06 PM
To really answer this question bh we are gonna need to go over the supps that you remember taking from the 80's until present.

For example i started with joe weiders fat burners in 88 and jumped to hott stuff.

We really need a list to comment.

GuyJin
06-12-2014, 04:12 PM
Good genes and hard work.

Toss in luck and there you have it.

Brackneyc
06-12-2014, 04:19 PM
Cybergenics ftw.

x-trainer ben
06-12-2014, 04:21 PM
Cybergenics ftw.

My training partner used that with amazing results; we just never figured out what was in those under the tongue drops??

ChazWood
06-12-2014, 04:30 PM
I since went to get a complete physical and then went to a cardiologist to check my heart
Grateful for no selfie during prostate exam.

bodyhard
06-12-2014, 06:33 PM
To really answer this question bh we are gonna need to go over the supps that you remember taking from the 80's until present.

For example i started with joe weiders fat burners in 88 and jumped to hott stuff.

We really need a list to comment.

Damn, it would take up this whole page probably! :D :D

bodyhard
06-12-2014, 06:34 PM
Cybergenics ftw.

Man I followed that to a T!

pharmamarketer
06-12-2014, 06:35 PM
Supplements are gay. Am I doing this correctly?

Only if you are straight and in a gay bar and obsessed with gay people

bodyhard
06-12-2014, 06:43 PM
Hot Stuff blew me up, i swear I thought I was on roids! :D :D

x-trainer ben
06-12-2014, 06:56 PM
Hot Stuff blew me up, i swear I thought I was on roids! :D :D

Me too and that is why it was pulled from the store shelves; they tested it and it was positive.

baker
06-12-2014, 07:09 PM
I'd like to see the list.

bodyhard
06-13-2014, 05:03 AM
Me too and that is why it was pulled from the store shelves; they tested it and it was positive.

That had to be a myth, while I did improve on my build, my build was nowhere near if I were on the juice.

One supp I did take that really did nothing for me and I had high expectation for it was HMB.

Demonchylde
06-13-2014, 05:16 AM
I see no issue with sups.

I only use subs when I can't get in what I need daily through diet and intake. Then again they are called supplements so I guess that makes sense. I use the very basics and although I am progressing somewhat slower than I would like, I am happy with my results. Generally anything other than my regular whey supplement, I rarely take anything.

I guess it depends on each individual personally. If I take creatine for example, my bloodwork always comes back screwed up, so even though my doc gave the go ahead for me to use it, I don't.

ajdahlheimer
06-13-2014, 05:24 AM
I'd like to see the list of the supps you are currently taking just out of curiosity.....

Jtbny
06-13-2014, 05:47 AM
That had to be a myth, while I did improve on my build, my build was nowhere near if I were on the juice.

One supp I did take that really did nothing for me and I had high expectation for it was HMB.

From what I've read about hot stuff. Can't link the article from T-nation as it goes further than is allowed on these forums:

"It was right around this time that a small family-owned company had a brainstorm. An entrepreneur named Tom Ciola came up with the idea of using all of the popular ingredients and combining them in a freeze-dried glandular protein base (yum). Herbs like yohimbe were added for their "stimulative" effect so the consumer would "feel" the concoction working. He called it Hot Stuff, and it became an overnight success. Hot Stuff flew off the shelves! Stores couldn't restock fast enough. It seemed as if a supplement finally had been developed that mimicked the effects of steroids. Was it a synergistic effect of all the combined nutrients that made Hot Stuff so effective? Or was it something more?

There have been accusations alluded to by several unrelated sources (who wish to remain anonymous for obvious reasons) that in order for Hot Stuff to "make sure" that its initial release would create a stir, it had to contain an additional ingredient not listed on the can. Something that would leave no doubt of its effectiveness in the user's mind. Something that would bring them back for more. Rumor has it that this "something" was methyltestosterone.

Methyltestosterone is an inexpensive form of orally absorbable testosterone that works quickly and effectively to raise strength and aggression. It's also extremely liver toxic. It would appear to be a good choice as an added ingredient for another reason: it's undetectable in a drug test. The "insiders" theory is that, even if the FDA somehow found out about the drug being used, all of the canisters would already be sold. An inspection of the National Health (makers of Hot Stuff) facility would show no wrongdoing. No evidence has ever been found to substantiate these claims. The rumors seem far-fetched, to say the least, but there was a period when Hot Stuff was pulled from the shelves for reasons that have always been mired in ambiguity. There was a "new and improved" version released shortly thereafter, but anyone familiar with the "first" Hot Stuff will tell you that the new one never quite duplicated the characteristic "kick" of the original.

bodyhard
06-13-2014, 06:00 AM
I'd like to see the list of the supps you are currently taking just out of curiosity.....

Right now I am currently using these supps.
BCAA
Dextrose
L-Arginine
Waximaize
Creatine Mono
Hydrolyzed whey protien
Animal PAK

JWoodCF10
06-13-2014, 06:27 AM
My first question would be:

In the medical how did they say everything was fine?

You can look at cholesterol and the biggest changer for your cholesterol ratio is exercise. That raises your HDL and makes everything shiny. Stops the oxidative stress on the blood vessels. So that would account for a lot of the readings.

Did they give you an agiogram for the heart kidney and liver, or was it done on blood test results alone.

If blood test results alone, a fit healthy guy can compensate amazingly then fall off a cliff. The results as single results are pretty much irrelevant and need to be based on trends for the individual. As someone who trains a lot and probably has a very high protein diet your kidney function results should be off anyhow compared to normal.

As for supplements I think the gains and how much is absorbed of most of them is pretty small. That is not to say insignificant, but the ultimate change on body chemistry is small. The human body is a wonderful machine at adapting to new things.

The only supplement that I KNOW off that has caused a god awful mess is creatine, and that is simply cause the guy taking it was a prat, and had not read the label so had been taking 10 gm daily for nearly a month!!

Supplements like carnitine, glutamine, BCAA's, q10, ZMA are basically benign food stuffs. (ok so I listed the ones I take not the ones you take).

highiso
06-13-2014, 06:46 AM
Supplements are garbage. I use whey, bcaas & fish oil, that's it. Not even sure if the bcaas benefit me but I use them because I fast at least 18 hours a day, and drinking ON's lemon lime flavor keeps me satisfied until my fast is over. I make my gains with food and protein supps that's it.

I've used other supps before and I see no difference in my ability to build with or without them. IMO supps are a waste of money. Just eat to meet your goals.

ajdahlheimer
06-13-2014, 06:52 AM
....because I fast at least 18 hours a day....

That's incredible.

acrawlingchaos
06-13-2014, 07:00 AM
From what I've read about hot stuff. Can't link the article from T-nation as it goes further than is allowed on these forums:

"It was right around this time that a small family-owned company had a brainstorm. An entrepreneur named Tom Ciola came up with the idea of using all of the popular ingredients and combining them in a freeze-dried glandular protein base (yum). Herbs like yohimbe were added for their "stimulative" effect so the consumer would "feel" the concoction working. He called it Hot Stuff, and it became an overnight success. Hot Stuff flew off the shelves! Stores couldn't restock fast enough. It seemed as if a supplement finally had been developed that mimicked the effects of steroids. Was it a synergistic effect of all the combined nutrients that made Hot Stuff so effective? Or was it something more?

There have been accusations alluded to by several unrelated sources (who wish to remain anonymous for obvious reasons) that in order for Hot Stuff to "make sure" that its initial release would create a stir, it had to contain an additional ingredient not listed on the can. Something that would leave no doubt of its effectiveness in the user's mind. Something that would bring them back for more. Rumor has it that this "something" was methyltestosterone.

Methyltestosterone is an inexpensive form of orally absorbable testosterone that works quickly and effectively to raise strength and aggression. It's also extremely liver toxic. It would appear to be a good choice as an added ingredient for another reason: it's undetectable in a drug test. The "insiders" theory is that, even if the FDA somehow found out about the drug being used, all of the canisters would already be sold. An inspection of the National Health (makers of Hot Stuff) facility would show no wrongdoing. No evidence has ever been found to substantiate these claims. The rumors seem far-fetched, to say the least, but there was a period when Hot Stuff was pulled from the shelves for reasons that have always been mired in ambiguity. There was a "new and improved" version released shortly thereafter, but anyone familiar with the "first" Hot Stuff will tell you that the new one never quite duplicated the characteristic "kick" of the original.This...



That had to be a myth, while I did improve on my build, my build was nowhere near if I were on the juice.No myth. Up until 1991, most of these "substances" where perfectly legal. Many companies through the 80's spiked their supplements as a marketing ploy. These where all oral, so of course there efficacy was greatly diminished.

Even today, there are occasional cases of spiked supplements (just nowhere near the amount in the 80's).

bodyhard
06-13-2014, 07:12 AM
Supplements are garbage. .

Bullsh!t.


This...


No myth. Up until 1991, most of these "substances" where perfectly legal. Many companies through the 80's spiked their supplements as a marketing ploy. These where all oral, so of course there efficacy was greatly diminished.

Even today, there are occasional cases of spiked supplements (just nowhere near the amount in the 80's).

Damn my 30 years dug free is now out the window :(

ajdahlheimer
06-13-2014, 07:21 AM
Damn my 30 years drug free is now out the window :(

Does that include recreational drugs too, BH? I had you pegged for the type of guy who doesn't necessarily like coke, only the way the way it smells...... :-)

acrawlingchaos
06-13-2014, 07:23 AM
Damn my 30 years dug free is now out the window :(No... those duped by unscrupulous corporations with low grade pharmaceuticals are still drug free. Otherwise, just about everyone that lifted through the 80 would be considered non natty.

Besides... these tactics where only used on individual batches to lure the customer back.

bodyhard
06-13-2014, 07:26 AM
Does that include recreational drugs too, BH? I had you pegged for the type of guy who doesn't necessarily like coke, only the way the way it smells...... :-)

LOL ohhh hell no, I did mad drugs growing up, except dope and crack.

OK please no ban hammer just stating what I did growing up,

I have done
Weed
Acid
Coke
Dust
Hash

highiso
06-13-2014, 07:28 AM
Bullsh!t.

I see no difference from now and when I was using some of the things you listed. I don't even use creatine anymore and still make the same gains.

Eating to meet your goals > hyped supps.

bodyhard
06-13-2014, 07:31 AM
I see no difference from now and when I was using some of the things you listed. I don't even use creatine anymore and still make the same gains.

Eating to meet your goals > hyped supps.

Yeah but that is YOU, you can't make that broad statement.

I have done it with and without supps

Way more results with supps.

And just for clarity I have done in in increments of years not months.

I trained for two years with food alone to see where I would get and I did 2 years with supps.

I don't take this sh!t lightly I experiment on my own body and never go by what I read or hear.

ajdahlheimer
06-13-2014, 07:35 AM
LOL ohhh hell no, I did mad drugs growing up, except dope and crack.

OK please no ban hammer just stating what I did growing up,

I have done
Weed
Acid
Coke
Dust
Hash

Nothing anymore though on occasion?

highiso
06-13-2014, 07:35 AM
Yeah but that is YOU, you can't make that broad statement.

I have done it with and without supps

Way more results with supps.

And just for clarity I have done in in increments of years not months.

I trained for two years with food alone to see where I would get and I did 2 years with supps.

I don't take this sh!t lightly I experiment on my own body and never go by what I read or hear.

Everybody is different, i just know i won't waste anymore of my money on things that make no difference in my results. My body is built on mostly chicken, average intake is probably a pound per day.

ajdahlheimer
06-13-2014, 07:37 AM
Yeah but that is YOU, you can't make that broad statement.

I have done it with and without supps

Way more results with supps.

And just for clarity I have done in in increments of years not months.

I trained for two years with food alone to see where I would get and I did 2 years with supps.

I don't take this sh!t lightly I experiment on my own body and never go by what I read or hear.

I took a 10 year break from any supps at one point. Nothing. Not even protein.

After getting back on supps (PWO, creatine, protein) for 6 months, I had tremendous gains in mass and strength.

But again, that's just me/my body.

bodyhard
06-13-2014, 07:54 AM
Nothing anymore though on occasion?

I did the light stuff (the W) when I was in Atlantic City with some of the OV35 crowd, but no I don't do any. i also smoked cigarettes for 10 years 2 packs a day from the age of 16 to 26 and I have not touched a cigarette since then, I am planning on giving up beer/liquor as well. When I go out I always drink and that is going to stop.


Everybody is different, i just know i won't waste anymore of my money on things that make no difference in my results. My body is built on mostly chicken, average intake is probably a pound per day.

See now that is a better statement, you don't do supps because they do nothing for you just as I would not waste my time on food alone when I know I have better results adding supps.

x-trainer ben
06-13-2014, 09:29 AM
That had to be a myth, while I did improve on my build, my build was nowhere near if I were on the juice.

One supp I did take that really did nothing for me and I had high expectation for it was HMB.

Nope i asked the manager at my local gnc in the 80's because it was always hard to find. It was the hottest pre workout around and all of a sudden it was gone leaving a huge vacuum!

DuracellBunny
06-13-2014, 09:38 AM
Nope i asked the manager at my local gnc in the 80's because it was always hard to find. It was the hottest pre workout around and all of a sudden it was gone leaving a huge vacuum!

In the same vein, wasn't it the case that a few years ago a number of OTC supps had "special" ingredients added to give them a boost (without telling the customers). IIRC this was around the time that BB.com warehouse was raided as lots of supps were being looked at off the back of this.

induced_drag
06-13-2014, 10:19 AM
Yeah but that is YOU, you can't make that broad statement.

I have done it with and without supps

Way more results with supps.

And just for clarity I have done in in increments of years not months.

I trained for two years with food alone to see where I would get and I did 2 years with supps.

I don't take this sh!t lightly I experiment on my own body and never go by what I read or hear.'

BH,

Your list of supps isnt really that extensive. In fact, it is quite similar to Highiso.

Most of your 'supps' are protein followed by carbs.

One point to consider, (that you make better progress on supps) may be based on your better meeting your macro requirements. A guy like Iso, logs his macros daily so he know that he is hitting his macros with or without supps.

Could be that you are experiencing what it is like to hit your necessary macros (when you are using supps)

Besides that, Creatine, BCAA, and arginine are really your only "sups" in the list. Creatine is a given for anyone as a good supp. BCAA's are thought to be good in a deficit state and combined with the dextrose and waxy maize can stimulate a significant insulin spike. Only one I am not a fan of is arginine....but hey...it is cheap as hell so if you like it keep it.


FWIW, I rely heavily on whey as a protein source.

I also supp:
Fish oil
Multi (just cheap brands)
Creatine
BCAA
Beta-alanine
GABA (at times)
Dextrose (add to my pre-and post work out when leaner)

Home made pre-workouts:
Caffeine
1,3
Ephedrine HCL

bodyhard
06-13-2014, 10:47 AM
ID I track my macros as well down to a science, got that from you LOL.

But even with that, i just do much better on Supps, energy, pumps, strength, build etc etc.

I guess I would have to chalk it up as one of those who just does really well on supps.

You know what they say, it if isn't broke don't fix it.

One day when I get "ON" I will have that to track against food, VS supps as well.

But for now, I will take my supps with food VS food alone any day of the week,

Not telling anyone else to do as I do, just stating what works for me and not being a dick, but I just have the body to back it up ;)

weiss1967
06-13-2014, 10:52 AM
I went full circle with supps, from blind following to complete denial and now I am into carefully stacking a good stuff. There is noticeable difference with or without supps. I am natural, so you juicers fokkers better shut up and listen. For a natty those small diffences is all we have. And the difference is like day and night.

induced_drag
06-13-2014, 11:04 AM
ID I track my macros as well down to a science, got that from you LOL.

But even with that, i just do much better on Supps, energy, pumps, strength, build etc etc.

I guess I would have to chalk it up as one of those who just does really well on supps.

You know what they say, it if isn't broke don't fix it.

One day when I get "ON" I will have that to track against food, VS supps as well.

But for now, I will take my supps with food VS food alone any day of the week,

Not telling anyone else to do as I do, just stating what works for me and not being a dick, but I just have the body to back it up ;)


I dont think anyone is stupid enough (well I will take that back considering some of the folks on here ;) ) to question whether or not you know what works for you after 3+ decades!

One thing to consider, is that you are a fairly lean guy. Carb timing can and does play a role in things (especially when leaner). I too utilize simple sugars for maximum benefit. I just use dextrose and not waxymaize...but both do the same.

Heck, I have even started to carry around smarties candy to much on before the gym. My post workout is always a large dose of simple sugars along with a lot of protein. Sure I could live without it....but I know it helps me recover and I have found that I can consume a lot more (in the way of carbs) if I do it post workout without having a negative impact upon composition.

I am with you BH..... What you should say though, is for many, supps dont mean much till they get to a point where they might give that extra benefit. When you are close to the peak like you, it is VERY small things that can have a large impact. You are riding a razors edge fighting for gains at this point in your life. To a general newb or intermediate, it is not at a point of being nearly as critical .

bodyhard
06-13-2014, 11:06 AM
I dont think anyone is stupid enough (well I will take that back considering some of the folks on here ;) ) to question whether or not you know what works for you after 3+ decades!

One thing to consider, is that you are a fairly lean guy. Carb timing can and does play a role in things (especially when leaner). I too utilize simple sugars for maximum benefit. I just use dextrose and not waxymaize...but both do the same.

Heck, I have even started to carry around smarties candy to much on before the gym. My post workout is always a large dose of simple sugars along with a lot of protein. Sure I could live without it....but I know it helps me recover and I have found that I can consume a lot more (in the way of carbs) if I do it post workout without having a negative impact upon composition.

I am with you BH..... What you should say though, is for many, supps dont mean much till they get to a point where they might give that extra benefit. When you are close to the peak like you, it is VERY small things that can have a large impact. You are riding a razors edge fighting for gains at this point in your life. To a general newb or intermediate, it is not at a point of being nearly as critical .

Excellent point as always.

highiso
06-13-2014, 11:35 AM
I dont think anyone is stupid enough (well I will take that back considering some of the folks on here ;) ) to question whether or not you know what works for you after 3+ decades!

One thing to consider, is that you are a fairly lean guy. Carb timing can and does play a role in things (especially when leaner). I too utilize simple sugars for maximum benefit. I just use dextrose and not waxymaize...but both do the same.

Heck, I have even started to carry around smarties candy to much on before the gym. My post workout is always a large dose of simple sugars along with a lot of protein. Sure I could live without it....but I know it helps me recover and I have found that I can consume a lot more (in the way of carbs) if I do it post workout without having a negative impact upon composition.

I am with you BH..... What you should say though, is for many, supps dont mean much till they get to a point where they might give that extra benefit. When you are close to the peak like you, it is VERY small things that can have a large impact. You are riding a razors edge fighting for gains at this point in your life. To a general newb or intermediate, it is not at a point of being nearly as critical .

this^


Excellent point as always.

and this^

Procram12
06-13-2014, 01:58 PM
Do you think if you never took supplements that you would have had the same test results? Or do you think you wouldn't have gotten the gains you made and been discouraged from further lifting?

In the last 20+ years I've taken everything sold at GNC and some things under counter (no real steroids) and my health is good...for now. Maybe the supplements don't show a bad effect until your 70s or maybe the supplements have things that assist your liver/kidneys/heart more than the absence of any supplements.

I'm more worried of past use of street drugs...but we could all get hit by a car or stray bullet tomorrow. Or maybe a meteor. Just do what you love, man.

bodyhard
06-13-2014, 08:26 PM
Do you think if you never took supplements that you would have had the same test results? Or do you think you wouldn't have gotten the gains you made and been discouraged from further lifting?



I am not sure I guess I will never know.

As for the quitting I don't think I would have, once I started lifting I was hooked and it took me a long time to see any real results.

doughnutgut
06-14-2014, 05:03 AM
Removed Creatine a while back and do not take any supps apart from fish oil, asprin and a multi in the mornings.

I eat well.
Train as hard as I can for an ex fat lazy bastard.
Sleep like a teenager.
Deload once every four weeks.


As most are aware. I have a VERY long whey to go. Nowhere near decent shape or strength. But I will continue doing what I do without the use of supps as so far I seem to be progressing just fine.

After a good solid 3+ years lifting and a half decent base. I will re assess my goals and see if there is a need to incorporate anything in to assist me to progress.

Streetbull
06-15-2014, 07:51 AM
I take Animal Pak vitamins/mins 5 days per week along with Isopure and it's all good. Mix the ISO with organic chocolate milk after a workout and the sugars get rid of the post workout drained feeling.

Bo_Flecks
06-15-2014, 08:45 AM
"No supplement has the power that is greater than the power of eatin' clean and liftin' hard."--- heyzeus909 (aka-mountain man)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/docs/2006/wpow/bg127_thumb.jpg

You long time members aware? ;)

DuracellBunny
06-15-2014, 09:00 AM
"No supplement has the power that is greater than the power of eatin' clean and liftin' hard."--- heyzeus909 (aka-mountain man)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/docs/2006/wpow/bg127_thumb.jpg

You long time members aware? ;)

That's a blast from the past.