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thomashenry
06-06-2014, 03:27 PM
There is no rational reason why a small republican experiment in 1776 grew to dominate global culture and society----except, that AMERICA, is THE only Nation on earth, past or present, that put the trust of the Individual, rather than in the state or elite bureaucracy. Such confidence in the average citizen is WHAT makes AMERICA EXCEPTIONAL !

"The Basis of our Political System is the right of the people to make & alter their Constitutions of government"--- George Washington

" I shall know but one Country. the ends I am at shall be my Country`s, My God`s, and truth`s. I was born an American, I live as American & I shall die an American " --Daniel Webster

" You and I have a rendezvous with Destiny, we will preserve for our children, America, the last best hope for mankind"---Ronald Reagan

"Our citizenship in the United States is our National character. Our citizenship in any particular state is only our local distinction. By the latter we are known at home, by the former to the World, Our great Title is AMERICANS"--Daniel Webster

" So let every nation know whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of LIBERTY"---John F Kennedy

" MY GOD, How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other PEOPLE on EARTH enjoy---Thomas Jefferson

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote"---Benjamin Franklin

7Seconds
06-06-2014, 05:08 PM
I like to see a man proud of the place in which he lives. I like to see a man live so that his place will be proud of him. ~Abraham Lincoln

ArchAngel'73
06-06-2014, 07:35 PM
Gag me with a spoon.

Bo_Flecks
06-06-2014, 07:44 PM
Gag me with a spoon--- Moon Zappa

^^^ Fixed that for ya'

sTKPxu55lXs

:D

ArchAngel'73
06-06-2014, 08:02 PM
^^^^^
awesomeness

cowboybiker
06-06-2014, 08:10 PM
http://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10268725_10152206234832690_1094570257358883318_n.p ng

jeffaus
06-06-2014, 08:20 PM
I could have misread your heading and statement Thomas and please correct me if I am wrong. But I believe that anyone thinking that their country is exceptional in everything they do, or have done, or will do, is dangerous, in particular if a whole nation is brainwashed into believing it. There is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and you should have, but the heading reeks of " we are better than everybody else".
The Roman empire believed this, Hitler believed this and convinced his countrymen and women that this was the case. That's not a direct parallel to comparing US to Nazi Germany, they are worlds apart, so don't think that's how its meant.

Individuals are exceptional and what the US did was to create an environment where exceptional individuals could flourish, which is why so many of the worlds exceptional individuals migrated to the US. That's a given. Throughout history, there has been many countries that could claim that they are exceptional for one reason or another. I am a proud Aussie and am from a country that in its short 200 years as a colonized country of criminals, became a 1st world country that excels in many things, even with a small 23 million population, but I don't believe that Australia is exceptional as a whole.

I live in China. I see China as achieving exceptional things, but I don't see them as completely exceptional in everything. In the last 20 years they have brought 400 million people out of poverty, quite an exceptional feat. Japan was exceptional that in the last 60 odd years, they went from being a defeated in WW2 to becoming the 2nd largest economy in the world ( now 3rd ) and the US was exceptional over that time in helping them create an environment to achieve this. I think Bill Gates is an exceptional individual, not because of his achievements in creating Microsoft, but for what he does now in his charity work. Warren Buffet? Same.

France, England, Egypt, Russia, Greece. Persia, and the list goes on, at some point in humans short history on this planet has been exceptional at something because of individuals. The problem is that when a whole country starts to believe that they are for some reason, more exceptional than everybody else, they then start to believe that everybody should believe in what they believe and tow the line as they know best. Its elitism.

Is belief in your own countries exceptionalism in the extreme dangerous? I believe yes. Being proud of your country is a whole other statement. The US, just like pretty much every other country is run by elitists and bureaucracy. I have yet to see a poor politician that struggles to make ends meet, like most middle and lower class.

UnaChispita
06-06-2014, 08:29 PM
Thomas-

I do believe we must give proper respect to the Magna Carta...and also the Greek development of democracy. We stand on the shoulders of giants.

jeffaus
06-06-2014, 08:35 PM
You don't understand freedom.

ZDqXbk_ThH0I cant open the youtube link Doug, so cant comment on your statement :)

ArchAngel'73
06-06-2014, 08:42 PM
I cant open the youtube link Doug, so cant comment on your statement :)

A French guy breaks an American's arm because the Amis would not say "I love crepes".

Kinda like if I let my bowels loose in a crowded restaurant and claim "freedom!"


:D

jeffaus
06-06-2014, 09:04 PM
Thomas-

I do believe we must give proper respect to the Magna Carta...and also the Greek development of democracy. We stand on the shoulders of giants.Don't forget Science and they also gave us My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

jeffaus
06-06-2014, 09:06 PM
A French guy breaks an American's arm because the Amis would not say "I love crepes".

Kinda like if I let my bowels loose in a crowded restaurant and claim "freedom!"


:DWho doesn't love Crepes? We just don't want to admit they came from France.

jeffaus
06-06-2014, 09:16 PM
And buggeryI didn't say you had to accept everything the Greeks gave us, but to each his own I guess. :D

Fishman15
06-06-2014, 09:21 PM
Don't forget Science and they also gave us My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

What's next...they get their own yogurt named after them?

thomashenry
06-06-2014, 09:24 PM
What's next...they get their own yogurt named after them? Dasani ?

cowboybiker
06-06-2014, 09:33 PM
What's next...they get their own yogurt named after them?

Dasani ?http://i.imgur.com/rWfLq.gif

UnaChispita
06-06-2014, 09:55 PM
Don't forget Science and they also gave us My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

They may abandon cruise ships, but damn, they make some fine movies. :D

iFemw_6a-Tg



VL9whwwTK6I

Garbage000
06-06-2014, 10:23 PM
There is no rational reason why a small republican experiment in 1776 grew to dominate global culture and society----except, that AMERICA, is THE only Nation on earth, past or present, that put the trust of the Individual, rather than in the state or elite bureaucracy. Such confidence in the average citizen is WHAT makes AMERICA EXCEPTIONAL !

"The Basis of our Political System is the right of the people to make & alter their Constitutions of government"--- George Washington

" I shall know but one Country. the ends I am at shall be my Country`s, My God`s, and truth`s. I was born an American, I live as American & I shall die an American " --Daniel Webster

" You and I have a rendezvous with Destiny, we will preserve for our children, America, the last best hope for mankind"---Ronald Reagan

"Our citizenship in the United States is our National character. Our citizenship in any particular state is only our local distinction. By the latter we are known at home, by the former to the World, Our great Title is AMERICANS"--Daniel Webster

" So let every nation know whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of LIBERTY"---John F Kennedy

" MY GOD, How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other PEOPLE on EARTH enjoy---Thomas Jefferson

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote"---Benjamin Franklin
Why not Canada? Israel? Iraq?

Cass40
06-07-2014, 12:24 AM
Everybody is brainwashed to think their country is exceptional.
If you really want to understand someone from another country, read their school books.

JediRN
06-07-2014, 04:06 AM
" You and I have a rendezvous with Destiny, we will preserve for our children, America, the last best hope for mankind"---Ronald Reagan


I'll see your Reagan quote and raise you another.

332QeTNmfh8

...da crap I get from my liberal friends when I refer to the greatest President of our times as Ronaldus MAgnus.

PrivateFreedom
06-08-2014, 08:04 AM
PRIVATE FREEDOM approves!



There is no rational reason why a small republican experiment in 1776 grew to dominate global culture and society----except, that AMERICA, is THE only Nation on earth, past or present, that put the trust of the Individual, rather than in the state or elite bureaucracy. Such confidence in the average citizen is WHAT makes AMERICA EXCEPTIONAL !

"The Basis of our Political System is the right of the people to make & alter their Constitutions of government"--- George Washington

" I shall know but one Country. the ends I am at shall be my Country`s, My God`s, and truth`s. I was born an American, I live as American & I shall die an American " --Daniel Webster

" You and I have a rendezvous with Destiny, we will preserve for our children, America, the last best hope for mankind"---Ronald Reagan

"Our citizenship in the United States is our National character. Our citizenship in any particular state is only our local distinction. By the latter we are known at home, by the former to the World, Our great Title is AMERICANS"--Daniel Webster

" So let every nation know whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of LIBERTY"---John F Kennedy

" MY GOD, How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other PEOPLE on EARTH enjoy---Thomas Jefferson

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote"---Benjamin Franklin

BBBsupporter
06-08-2014, 12:58 PM
There is no rational reason why a small republican experiment in 1776 grew to dominate global culture and society----except, that AMERICA, is THE only Nation on earth, past or present, that put the trust of the Individual, rather than in the state or elite bureaucracy. Such confidence in the average citizen is WHAT makes AMERICA EXCEPTIONAL !



The republican party wasn't founded until 1854 genius.

BankWalker
06-08-2014, 01:08 PM
The republican party wasn't founded until 1854 genius.


You're a dumbass.

joeynewbie
06-08-2014, 01:13 PM
be interesting to see how history judges america, what with all the invasions of other countries & war crimes etc.

KeepItMoving
06-08-2014, 02:13 PM
The general state of man is to rule and be ruled. The American experiment of having the people be in control of the government is the exceptional aspect of why this Country became so great in such a relatively short time. The respect of the Individual over the Collective and the unleashing of great possible wealth to individuals willing to risk their fortunes on the creation of goods and services for which others, in an open market, would pay is the exceptionalism of the American experiment.

As predicted by our Forefathers, those who seek to rule and those who seek to protect and maintain their wealth have been whittling away at these liberties since their inception. Of course, it's done in the name of HOPE, Social Justice, and Compassion, but it is a dismantling of the unique American Experiment and a falling back into typical rule and be ruled by others.

KeepItMoving
06-08-2014, 02:15 PM
be interesting to see how history judges america, what with all the invasions of other countries & war crimes etc.This is such a school boy level statement.

Brackneyc
06-08-2014, 02:38 PM
be interesting to see how history judges america, what with all the invasions of other countries & war crimes etc.

Who cares.

Brackneyc
06-08-2014, 06:58 PM
The general state of man is to rule and be ruled.

Did not Loki allude to this in The Avengers?

joeynewbie
06-09-2014, 02:28 AM
This is such a school boy level statement.

i dont think so. America has undoubtedly pushed humanity to its peak, but that was back in the 50's.

its been all down hill from there.

Phattso
06-09-2014, 06:36 AM
USA has problems especially conservative politics.

..and you are mentally ill. ;)

Richie71
06-09-2014, 08:33 AM
Many nations get their "moment in the sun" as the biggest economy in the world. In very rough chronological order: Egypt, Greece, Rome, Persia, Mongolia, China, Spain/France/England....Turkey, England, England, England ;) finally the US. It's been a relatively small time though and doesn't look like lasting.

ArchAngel'73
06-09-2014, 08:37 AM
Remember when you went to elementary school and they had that special room where the weird kids that drooled on themselves went?
They called them exceptional too.

-just sayin'

JediRN
06-09-2014, 10:29 AM
Why not Canada? Israel? Iraq?

We were the first modern day civilization that embraced small "d" democratic values


Everybody is brainwashed to think their country is exceptional.
If you really want to understand someone from another country, read their school books.
It shouldn't be considered brainwashing for someone to be proud of their country, regardless of which country it is.


The republican party wasn't founded until 1854 genius.
but who was a Federal Republic?



be interesting to see how history judges america, what with all the invasions of other countries & war crimes etc.
History does not judge. People do.


The American experiment of having the people be in control of the government is the exceptional aspect of why this Country became so great in such a relatively short time.

I'm sure your not confusing exceptional with first. The Greek city-states and later Rome, before the empire all embraced small "d" democratic values... which is why they are still studied today. But to your point...true.



i dont think so. America has undoubtedly pushed humanity to its peak, but that was back in the 50's.

its been all down hill from there.

Landing on the moon, computers, expanding average lifetime expediencies of Americans by 10 years, cars that drive themselves, satellites and real time International communication, cloning, Rock and Roll, pacemakers, solar energy, laproscopic surgery, exploring Mars, epic movies on demand, oral contraceptives, and so much more. We live in the information age and we enjoy a unique opportunity to be able to learn and study on a deep level anything we want. The future has never held so much opportunity for the common man as it does today... especially in the USA.

It's not so much that America is slowing down but rather we helped rebuild a world that is truly competitive with us and competition is ultimately good.

There's no reason not to be proud of our country and there are many reasons for citizens of other countries to be proud of theirs. It's not an "either/or" situation.

JRT6
06-09-2014, 01:46 PM
America **** Yeah!

joeynewbie
06-09-2014, 03:23 PM
Landing on the moon, computers, expanding average lifetime expediencies of Americans by 10 years, cars that drive themselves, satellites and real time International communication, cloning, Rock and Roll, pacemakers, solar energy, laproscopic surgery, exploring Mars, epic movies on demand, oral contraceptives, and so much more.

Computers were not invented by an american.
Cloning was not invented by an american.
Pacemaker was not invented by an american.

Phattso
06-09-2014, 03:25 PM
Computers were not invented by an american.
Cloning was not invented by an american.
Pacemaker was not invented by an american.

You get all of your hate-America information from your college professors?

If you don't like the US or despise it that much, get the fk out. Kind of simple.

joeynewbie
06-09-2014, 03:38 PM
You get all of your hate-America information from your college professors?

If you don't like the US or despise it that much, get the fk out. Kind of simple.

i don't live in america.

RNYGRf6Nw0k#t

newtothelift
06-09-2014, 03:41 PM
"No rational reason"

How about a continent of completely untapped resources, that is the size of Europe with 1/50th the population? Lol you ain't nothing special brah, it would happen to anyone

Phattso
06-09-2014, 03:42 PM
i don't live in america.


Good

JediRN
06-09-2014, 04:20 PM
"No rational reason"

How about a continent of completely untapped resources, that is the size of Europe with 1/50th the population? Lol you ain't nothing special brah, it would happen to anyone

Why not Africa? Or south america? The thing that makes America especially exceptional is our heritage. Leaving the safety of your homeland and taking the monster chance that something better is possible for you take a certain type of person. It takes faith in oneself and. It takes a type of person who won't settle for less that achieving something better. This is our special bloodline. This is our roots. We come from the best of all the other countries cultures. Despite this, our maybe because of it, we have something special going on here.

Wrote this on a tablet so it might be disjointed.

joeynewbie
06-09-2014, 04:40 PM
"No rational reason"

How about a continent of completely untapped resources, that is the size of Europe with 1/50th the population? Lol you ain't nothing special brah, it would happen to anyone

dont forget the native americans, it took ages to kill and subdue them all.

JediRN
06-09-2014, 04:47 PM
dont forget the native americans, it took ages to kill and subdue them all.

Not really. I don't think they really wanted the land that much or they would have fought harder.



















I can troll too. :)

Caesura75
06-09-2014, 04:55 PM
We come from the best of all the other countries cultures.

Good God, we're now at a point of praising a civilisation based on their ancestors sailing in on a boat.

Keep this extreme myopia going, it makes for fascinating reading........

ArchAngel'73
06-09-2014, 05:59 PM
Why not Africa? Or south america? The thing that makes America especially exceptional is our heritage. Leaving the safety of your homeland and taking the monster chance that something better is possible for you take a certain type of person. It takes faith in oneself and. It takes a type of person who won't settle for less that achieving something better. This is our special bloodline. This is our roots. We come from the best of all the other countries cultures. Despite this, our maybe because of it, we have something special going on here.

Wrote this on a tablet so it might be disjointed.

and Canada has the exact same type of people except we took what you had and made it better.

Without the racism, without the jails being over populated by minorities, without 1/2 the world hating us, without the need for our citizens to be concerned abut the "right to bare arms" because it's so fukcing dangerous just to walk down a city street...and I could go on and on and so could members of different countries.

Take you nationalistic pride and keep it to yourself and within your borders, show some humility in your actions instead of conceit and maybe the world will not think the majority of Americans as d*ckheads because of the actions of a relative few.

eomrat
06-09-2014, 06:07 PM
and Canada has the exact same type of people except we took what you had and made it better.

Without the racism, without the jails being over populated by minorities, without 1/2 the world hating us, without the need for our citizens to be concerned abut the "right to bare arms" because it's so fukcing dangerous just to walk down a city street...and I could go on and on and so could members of different countries.

Take you nationalistic pride and keep it to yourself and within your borders, show some humility in your actions instead of conceit and maybe the world will not think the majority of Americans as d*ckheads because of the actions of a relative few.

All that may be true but, Canada has socialized medicine. So, basically pretty much everyone in Canada is dead already. You probably died moments after typing your post. Which really sucks actually, because even though you were not an American, I kinda liked you.

deadwoodgregg
06-09-2014, 06:14 PM
and Canada has the exact same type of people except we took what you had and made it better.

Without the racism, without the jails being over populated by minorities, without 1/2 the world hating us, without the need for our citizens to be concerned abut the "right to bare arms" because it's so fukcing dangerous just to walk down a city street...and I could go on and on and so could members of different countries.

Take you nationalistic pride and keep it to yourself and within your borders, show some humility in your actions instead of conceit and maybe the world will not think the majority of Americans as d*ckheads because of the actions of a relative few.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5Mr5eCF2U

ArchAngel'73
06-09-2014, 06:17 PM
All that may be true but, Canada has socialized medicine. So, basically pretty much everyone in Canada is dead already. You probably died moments after typing your post. Which really sucks actually, because even though you were not an American, I kinda liked you.

Zombie posting brah.
:D

I like you too.
You're part of the group the makes an EXEMPLORY American.-srs




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5Mr5eCF2U

WTF is this sh*t
do I look like a slave to you
you think I'm going to fix ur phuck up and look that up because you cannot learn to post a vid on bb.com?

Oh wait...that's what we do...help America fix up their mistakes.
:D

JediRN
06-09-2014, 06:36 PM
and Canada has the exact same type of people except we took what you had and made it better.

Without the racism, without the jails being over populated by minorities, without 1/2 the world hating us, without the need for our citizens to be concerned abut the "right to bare arms" because it's so fukcing dangerous just to walk down a city street...and I could go on and on and so could members of different countries.

Take you nationalistic pride and keep it to yourself and within your borders, show some humility in your actions instead of conceit and maybe the world will not think the majority of Americans as d*ckheads because of the actions of a relative few.

No need to piss on our' Murican lovefest. There's no reason for you Canadians to not be as proud of your country too.

ArchAngel'73
06-09-2014, 06:38 PM
There's no reason for you Canadians to not be as proud of your country too.

We are.
But we hold it mostly in our hearts.;)

Brackneyc
06-09-2014, 07:20 PM
We are.
But we hold it mostly in our hearts.;)

So do most Americans.

jeffaus
06-10-2014, 05:37 AM
Why not Africa? Or south america?

Probably because Africa and South America are not countries. There are countries within Africa and South America, just as Europe or North America or Asia are not a countries. Many countries within all of these regions. They all had their own national agendas and interests at heart. Australia is a country, but also a continent. Doesn't that make us Exceptional ? :D

jeffaus
06-10-2014, 05:55 AM
No need to piss on our' Murican lovefest. There's no reason for you Canadians to not be as proud of your country too.Again, I will repeat. I don't have a problem with people having pride in their country, be they from USA, Canada, Russia or wherever.

Pride in your country is a good thing. Exceptionalism is a whole other matter. I do however have a problem when a country see's itself as exceptional with respect to all others. I see it as dangerous for a country to see itself as exceptional. Tom ( the Op ) is a proud American, that's obvious in most of his posts and I respect him for his pride in his country. I know that his original post was not meant as anything other than pride, but if a country claims to be exceptional, they had better have a good reason to be taking such a high ground. Ive yet to see such a country.

JediRN
06-10-2014, 08:00 AM
Probably because Africa and South America are not countries. There are countries within Africa and South America, just as Europe or North America or Asia are not a countries. Many countries within all of these regions.

It was alluded to previously that our station in the world was due to our abundant natural resources. I'm just making the point that there is something more to it than just that. I would be delusional to think that having abundant natural resources wasn't a boon, but other regions of the world are just as blessed yet have not risen to the USA's influential status in the world.



They all had their own national agendas and interests at heart. Australia is a country, but also a continent. Doesn't that make us Exceptional ? :D
Nothing but love and respect for our Aussie friends down under. I'll leave the assessment of Australia to the Australians.


Again, I will repeat. I don't have a problem with people having pride in their country, be they from USA, Canada, Russia or wherever.

Pride in your country is a good thing. Exceptionalism is a whole other matter. I do however have a problem when a country see's itself as exceptional with respect to all others. I see it as dangerous for a country to see itself as exceptional. Tom ( the Op ) is a proud American, that's obvious in most of his posts and I respect him for his pride in his country. I know that his original post was not meant as anything other than pride, but if a country claims to be exceptional, they had better have a good reason to be taking such a high ground.

These words changed the world as it was known in 1776.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

We don't always live up to our ideals and our history is chalked full of shortcomings. With that said, we still have a legacy of unleashing freedom from tyranny into the world and being the first to show that there is another viable form of government aside from totalitarianism.



Ive yet to see such a country.

I have.

Like the OP, I am very proud of my country. It's not perfect but it is mine. Although I will defend my country, our constitution and our Ideals, it is not my place to convince the world of our exceptionalism. Normally, I don't wrap myself up in the flag so much. I jumped into this thread to show some love for Reagan, and probably got sucked into the discussion about American exceptionalism a little too far. I like to find common ground with people that disagree with me. I'm a self admitted Obama loving Atheist liberal democrat. I'm sure the OP and I would disagree on a lot of political points, the one thing we do share is an adoration for the Red, White and Blue and the republic for which is stands.

I hear what you are saying about it being "dangerous" Hell, we don't even trust our own government all the way. Why do you think we love our guns so much?

With great power comes great responsibility. Great responsibility requires even greater humility to avoid spilling over into totalitarianism. I would agree with you if you thought we need to work on being humble. I feel the same way about Texas. :)

thomashenry
06-10-2014, 09:44 AM
I feel better now, almost reinvigorated, kinda euphoric after I read this " Hillary Clinton: Obama and I Restored America's Leadership in the World" “[I]n many areas he and I worked together and I think we saw positive results, I’m very proud of what we did during the time I was there,” she said. “I think we restored America;s leadership at a time when it was in quite dire straights.”




http://youtu.be/TUmVd4RQZCo

sy2502
06-10-2014, 11:07 AM
Computers were not invented by an american.
Cloning was not invented by an american.
Pacemaker was not invented by an american.


You get all of your hate-America information from your college professors?

If you don't like the US or despise it that much, get the fk out. Kind of simple.

The computer was invented by Charles Babbage, a Brit.
The first successful nuclear transfer (cloning) was performed by Hans Spemann, a German.
The first implantable pacemaker was invented by Rune Elmqvist, a Swede.

Why you mad?

Phattso
06-10-2014, 11:26 AM
Why you mad?

Me not mad.

sy2502
06-10-2014, 11:47 AM
Me not mad.

Good, being mad is bad for your health :P

jeffaus
06-10-2014, 05:49 PM
It was alluded to previously that our station in the world was due to our abundant natural resources. I'm just making the point that there is something more to it than just that. I would be delusional to think that having abundant natural resources wasn't a boon, but other regions of the world are just as blessed yet have not risen to the USA's influential status in the world.


Nothing but love and respect for our Aussie friends down under. I'll leave the assessment of Australia to the Australians.



These words changed the world as it was known in 1776.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

We don't always live up to our ideals and our history is chalked full of shortcomings. With that said, we still have a legacy of unleashing freedom from tyranny into the world and being the first to show that there is another viable form of government aside from totalitarianism.



I have.

Like the OP, I am very proud of my country. It's not perfect but it is mine. Although I will defend my country, our constitution and our Ideals, it is not my place to convince the world of our exceptionalism. Normally, I don't wrap myself up in the flag so much. I jumped into this thread to show some love for Reagan, and probably got sucked into the discussion about American exceptionalism a little too far. I like to find common ground with people that disagree with me. I'm a self admitted Obama loving Atheist liberal democrat. I'm sure the OP and I would disagree on a lot of political points, the one thing we do share is an adoration for the Red, White and Blue and the republic for which is stands.

I hear what you are saying about it being "dangerous" Hell, we don't even trust our own government all the way. Why do you think we love our guns so much?

With great power comes great responsibility. Great responsibility requires even greater humility to avoid spilling over into totalitarianism. I would agree with you if you thought we need to work on being humble. I feel the same way about Texas. :)You must spread Reps before giving to JED again. I enjoy a good debate and discussing different points of view. Humble is always a good thing.

sy2502
06-10-2014, 05:57 PM
Also it's not true every country thinks to be better than all others. Italy has a terrible inferiority complex.

Brackneyc
06-10-2014, 05:59 PM
Also it's not true every country thinks to be better than all others. Italy has a terrible inferiority complex.


Sounds like poor parenting.

Phattso
06-10-2014, 06:01 PM
Also it's not true every country thinks to be better than all others. Italy has a terrible inferiority complex.

Italy makes exceptional Italian food ;)

Brackneyc
06-10-2014, 06:03 PM
Italy makes exceptional Italian food ;)


And cool cars.

Phattso
06-10-2014, 06:08 PM
And cool cars.

Totally. And, nice suits.

Cass40
06-10-2014, 06:13 PM
Also it's not true every country thinks to be better than all others. Italy has a terrible inferiority complex.

I was thinking it this way. When you go to school as a kid, you read your schoolbooks, and even if they state the historical events accurately, they emphasize the events that your country was great at. For instance, we had wars against Russia, so the history books emphasize the facts where Finnish soldiers did great. And all the other things that you are taught in school to be proud of your country.
When you lived in Italy, didn't you think your worldview was objective? And then when you moved here, you realized that Italian newspapers were not as objective as you thought?
I just think it's funny that Finnish people think they are so objective and highly educated, but they don't realize their newspapers and news are as tilted as in any other country.

sy2502
06-10-2014, 06:32 PM
Sounds like poor parenting.

Well, it all started after the war, flying the Italian flag and playing the national anthem was associated with Fascism, as was nationalism and patriotism, so all these things were downplayed and ridiculed.

Also let's be honest, in terms of government, bureaucracy, corruption etc, Italy has a lot to learn from other countries.

thomashenry
06-10-2014, 07:07 PM
Also it's not true every country thinks to be better than all others. Italy has a terrible inferiority complex.

Beautiful Women, Leave you breathless and begging like a fool, My Wife is Sicilian and Northern Calabrese, I Crave LOVE good Italian Food, Big Family get togethers that can last for days if we liked, enough food for a Division in an Army, Stories that will leave you in knots, Tempers, thats an entire different story, my Mother in law, God rest her soul could put the fear of God in ANY UFC champion, and objects were never far out of reach,as far as clothes, Giorgio Armani is the Only Italian Designer I thought, for both Men & Women, as far as Cars Go, There is only one FERRARI, the other makes tractors don`t they, thats a direct quote from the Man Enzo himself, and If I had all my ducks in a Row, and all was taken care of My GUILTY pleasure would be a Nero 458 Italia, I have given my Opinion on the matter now LOL !

And it`s Called Gravy not sauce

sy2502
06-11-2014, 10:41 AM
Beautiful Women, Leave you breathless and begging like a fool, My Wife is Sicilian and Northern Calabrese, I Crave LOVE good Italian Food, Big Family get togethers that can last for days if we liked, enough food for a Division in an Army, Stories that will leave you in knots, Tempers, thats an entire different story, my Mother in law, God rest her soul could put the fear of God in ANY UFC champion, and objects were never far out of reach,as far as clothes, Giorgio Armani is the Only Italian Designer I thought, for both Men & Women, as far as Cars Go, There is only one FERRARI, the other makes tractors don`t they, thats a direct quote from the Man Enzo himself, and If I had all my ducks in a Row, and all was taken care of My GUILTY pleasure would be a Nero 458 Italia, I have given my Opinion on the matter now LOL !

And it`s Called Gravy not sauce

You need to have lived there to really understand how corrupt and inefficient the country is. It's easy to go on vacation and appreciate all the great things.

Also Italian men really do know how to make their woman feel special ;)

frozensparky
06-11-2014, 10:56 AM
I usually don't jump into conversations like this because I don't find any country exceptional, I find it's people can be exceptional. Usually countries are run by the un-exceptional, the people who crave power. I do not know of many politicians who get to a place of power by being honest and loyal to their beliefs.

I do know many Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Brits and other country men who are exceptional in their love for their countries and fellow countrymen. Who embody a sense of hard work, honesty, integrity and general good natured attitude. These are also the people who usually work the hardest to have those people in power take as much as they can from them and spread it amongst themselves or to those not willing to work for it.

It's for these reasons I usually place my faith in individuals and not countries

bustasinclair
06-11-2014, 11:52 AM
I usually don't jump into conversations like this because I don't find any country exceptional, I find it's people can be exceptional. Usually countries are run by the un-exceptional, the people who crave power. I do not know of many politicians who get to a place of power by being honest and loyal to their beliefs.

I do know many Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Brits and other country men who are exceptional in their love for their countries and fellow countrymen. Who embody a sense of hard work, honesty, integrity and general good natured attitude. These are also the people who usually work the hardest to have those people in power take as much as they can from them and spread it amongst themselves or to those not willing to work for it.

It's for these reasons I usually place my faith in individuals and not countries

^^^This

Couldn't have said it better myself!

On spread as usual...

JRT6
06-11-2014, 06:09 PM
At grandma's it was "Sunday gravy" and she said she didn't move across an ocean because Italy was a great place to live.

sy2502
06-11-2014, 06:18 PM
At grandma's it was "Sunday gravy" and she said she didn't move across an ocean because Italy was a great place to live.
I did moved across the ocean and have never looked back.

JRT6
06-11-2014, 06:24 PM
My grandma came to the US the old fashioned way...my grandpa knocked her up when he was stationed in Italy. J/K but when her family came over they went total American with no thought to heritage. My dad can't speak a word of Italian and my.Grand ma's dialect isn't even used anymore.

sy2502
06-11-2014, 06:33 PM
My grandma came to the US the old fashioned way...my grandpa knocked her up when he was stationed in Italy. J/K but when her family came over they went total American with no thought to heritage. My dad can't speak a word of Italian and my.Grand ma's dialect isn't even used anymore.
Without getting into diatribes and rustling jimmies, at that time foreigners that came to the US wanted to integrate and become part of America. They didn't expect anyone to cater to them, speak their language, etc etc.

RobRocks
06-11-2014, 06:44 PM
I love New Zealand,I am a Kiwi,I am proud of my country.

NorwichGrad
06-11-2014, 07:12 PM
Thomas-

I do believe we must give proper respect to the Magna Carta...and also the Greek development of democracy. We stand on the shoulders of giants.

Wow, Una!! I am impressed.. :D

You are correct. The Founding Fathers were heavily influenced by Greek and Roman histories. Some historians argue that had the Atheneans and Spartans lost to the Persians, the idea of democracy would never have come to fruition.

When the Fathers drafted the Constitution, they took into account that the Greek Civilization collapsed because of lack of central government. The individual sovereign states could not work together after defeating the Persians, and they were not united enough to defend themselves from future attacks. On the other hand, the Fathers also took into account that the Roman Empire collapsed because of a 'too big to fail and too powerful' central government.. (Personally, America today is the modern day Roman Empire.. The American Republic DIED in 1913 when the Federal Reserve bank was signed into law by Woodrow Wilson.)

The Fathers came up with the balance of power theories horizontally and vertically. The Fathers wanted the young States to have sovereignty, but they also wanted a bit of a centralized government to provide for common defense.. They believed that competing (in a healthy way) states will allow for the Individuals to flourish.

Hence, the Fathers referred to the young America as "THE GREAT EXPERIMENT." Because nothing like this has ever been done before..


America not only is abundantly blessed. It is also a blessing to the world. Unfortunately, because We the People failed to hold the government accountable, we are on our way to falling like Rome.

JediRN
06-11-2014, 08:10 PM
America not only is abundantly blessed. It is also a blessing to the world. Unfortunately, because We the People failed to hold the government accountable, we are on our way to falling like Rome.

I've always attributed the fall of Rome to the acceptance of Christianity. Rome rose through a relentless use of agression and amoral/machiavellian applications of power and control. As Christianity became more prevalent and assimulated it lead to a shift of thought in the leadership. Forgiveness, humility and compassion was a weakness before all the terrritories that were once aquired and held through fear and intimidation.

In this the USA is different. We are founded on the idea that all men are created equal and have rights. We sprung from a Judeo-Christian ethic. That is what our true strength comes from. I think our fall, (and all good things come to an end) will happen as we get farther and farther away from our core values.

and what are those core values and how are they advanced? That where the discussion of patriotism ends and politics begin... and I really don't want to talk about politics. I'm already tired of the 2016 POTUS election.

inb4 the above text is idealized dribble and the hypocritical rant of a confused Atheist... both are true statements.

Fishman15
06-11-2014, 08:33 PM
Without getting into diatribes and rustling jimmies, at that time foreigners that came to the US wanted to integrate and become part of America. They didn't expect anyone to cater to them, speak their language, etc etc.

and that is a long lost art compared to what we have now for foreigners especially the illegals. My how things have changed...

JRT6
06-11-2014, 08:39 PM
Religion, specifically Catholicism, was used by war Lords, kings, tribes etc to unite the barbarians all over Europe and make modern countries. It had nothing to do with a god.


The founding fathers thought all people were created equal,; except of course the slaves.

All the ideals and sentimentality are a modern twist on history.

NorwichGrad
06-12-2014, 06:00 PM
Religion, specifically Catholicism, was used by war Lords, kings, tribes etc to unite the barbarians all over Europe and make modern countries. It had nothing to do with a god.


The founding fathers thought all people were created equal,; except of course the slaves.

All the ideals and sentimentality are a modern twist on history.

What you say is true.. But only on the surface level.. I say surface level because sometimes we gotta go deeper to learn the real truth.

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

It does not say anything about separation of church and states. The Bill of Rights were passed to limit the role of government and NOT the individual.. The Fathers did not want religious institutions embedded within the government because if, for example, the Catholics were in charge of government affairs, the Protestants were screwed. And vice versa, as was the case in Europe.

To your point, religion killed many in Europe because organized religion and government were in the same bed. Also, because of this, freedoms were actually taken away.. Contrast this to the early USA, the early Americans worshiped as they pleased without government interference, and the way they conducted their lives were based on Judeo-Christian principles.



The Founders were slave owners. This is true. But only on the surface level.

They actually hated slavery, they abhorred it and thought it was evil. You gotta realize that slavery had already been in existence in the Americas for hundreds of years before the Founders were born.. They did not start it, they were born into it.

With the exception of Jefferson, most of the founders freed their slaves after the Revolution.

NorwichGrad
06-12-2014, 06:12 PM
I've always attributed the fall of Rome to the acceptance of Christianity. Rome rose through a relentless use of agression and amoral/machiavellian applications of power and control. As Christianity became more prevalent and assimulated it lead to a shift of thought in the leadership. Forgiveness, humility and compassion was a weakness before all the terrritories that were once aquired and held through fear and intimidation.

In this the USA is different. We are founded on the idea that all men are created equal and have rights. We sprung from a Judeo-Christian ethic. That is what our true strength comes from. I think our fall, (and all good things come to an end) will happen as we get farther and farther away from our core values.

and what are those core values and how are they advanced? That where the discussion of patriotism ends and politics begin... and I really don't want to talk about politics. I'm already tired of the 2016 POTUS election.

inb4 the above text is idealized dribble and the hypocritical rant of a confused Atheist... both are true statements.

Interesting how you mentioned the word 'core.' (BTW, I agree with what you said.)

If there is a hurricane, (or a typhoon if you grew up in Southeast Asia), where is the safest place? The core. The center..

There is a strong super storm brewing over the US of A. We gotta go to that safe place.. The core..

And what is our core? ;)

JRT6
06-12-2014, 08:37 PM
The whole slavery rationalization was an incredible stretch. I just can't convince owning another human being unless you really got some issues with humanity.

JediRN
06-13-2014, 01:14 AM
The whole slavery rationalization was an incredible stretch. I just can't convince owning another human being unless you really got some issues with humanity.

Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."
- "Obviously" it is God's will that some be slaves.

Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."
- Paul addresses the spiritual redemption of slaves.

Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."
- Paul states that we must be equitable to our slaves.

Nowhere in the New Testament, that I'm aware of, does Christ take the position that Slavery is inconsistant with the will of God. Nor does Christ admonish slave owers for mearly just having a slave. I wouldn't be surprised if I were wrong though.

Obviously I'm against slavery, but there is plenty of meat in the Bible to condone slavery. Christ could have taken the leadership position and stated that slavery is wrong but he never did. As many Christians believe, were the Word is silent we too should be silent. The Bible is flawless, the inherent word of Gawd, and complete.

I know I'm off topic and in no way is this me justifying slavery. I'm just saying that if one wanted to justify slavery, post Grace, it can be done.

Demonchylde
06-13-2014, 06:20 AM
Thomas-

I do believe we must give proper respect to the Magna Carta...and also the Greek development of democracy. We stand on the shoulders of giants.

Una wins!

Demonchylde
06-13-2014, 06:27 AM
I love and am proud of my country. I don't like all of the people in it or some of the policies we have in place.
I love America and my American friends. I don't like all of the people in it and many of the policies.

Love your country, be humble about who you are and where you come from. Be proud, but cocky looks bad on any countryman.

Some look at my countries and other countries social health system, education etc with disdain. However those same country with social politics and healthcare etc, are also listed in the top 10 countries in which to live. Others...not to much.

http://lifestyle9.com/worlds-best-country-to-live-in-2013/

This list has not changed in years really. Just usually the order changes.

NorwichGrad
06-13-2014, 07:57 AM
I'm against slavery.. If anybody is for slavery, his nutsack should be stapled to his left thigh on the spot..


All I'm saying is that some present day Americans are so quick to judge the people who started this Great Experiment, that also gave hope to a $hitload of people WORLDWIDE, and not just the US..

And all I'm saying is that if you think you have the truth, dig deeper, and deeper, and deeper until you find the truth.. We can run away from the truth all we want, but we can never deny the truth.


What shirt are you wearing? As I'm typing this, my shirt color is 'blue.' But is it really blue? On the surface level it is blue. But if I dug deeper, what I see is just a bunch of waves that reflect back into my eyes that tell my brain it is blue. If I were standing on Mars, it is not blue.

Brackneyc
06-13-2014, 09:59 AM
I'm against slavery.. If anybody is for slavery, his nutsack should be stapled to his left thigh on the spot..


All I'm saying is that some present day Americans are so quick to judge the people who started this Great Experiment, that also gave hope to a $hitload of people WORLDWIDE, and not just the US..

And all I'm saying is that if you think you have the truth, dig deeper, and deeper, and deeper until you find the truth.. We can run away from the truth all we want, but we can never deny the truth.


What shirt are you wearing? As I'm typing this, my shirt color is 'blue.' But is it really blue? On the surface level it is blue. But if I dug deeper, what I see is just a bunch of waves that reflect back into my eyes that tell my brain it is blue. If I were standing on Mars, it is not blue.

The Matrix says your shirt is blue.

bustasinclair
06-13-2014, 10:08 AM
What shirt are you wearing? As I'm typing this, my shirt color is 'blue.' But is it really blue? On the surface level it is blue. But if I dug deeper, what I see is just a bunch of waves that reflect back into my eyes that tell my brain it is blue. If I were standing on Mars, it is not blue.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmpu7rH98z1qddfrco1_500.gif

:D

NorwichGrad
06-13-2014, 12:03 PM
Hahaha!! :d

antihot
06-13-2014, 03:01 PM
Joni Ernst is a junk candidate.

onmyway01
06-13-2014, 08:02 PM
I agree with you, that America is expectational. But I think our agreement as to why would end there. I'm not going to get into politics, political movements, or religious discussions. But the people who founded America had a great advantage that the rest of the world at the time did not, that is space and resources. Think about it, Europe was crowded and divided. If a county wanted more space, or more resources (i.e. land), they had to go to war against another county. In America, all we had to do was march west. Sure, we had to quell a few natives in the process, but that was no challenge using our technology. Throughout the 1700's, 1800's and even into the 1900's, America was able to expand its borders, and thus its resources, by simply moving west, at very little expense of capital or human life, while even a similar fractional expansion in Europe would have come at unimaginable economic and military loss, as demonstrated in the 20th century from the two world wars. Even today, look at a population map of the US compared to Europe. There is a vast gap in population between the mid west (say west of IL) and California. We still, even to this day 225 years later have room to expand and grow, while Europe is as crowded as ever.

onmyway01
06-13-2014, 09:07 PM
The Matrix says your shirt is blue.

But the real question is, does it really matter color the matrix says your shirt is, or what color you think it is?

JRT6
06-14-2014, 03:02 AM
There is no spoon. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the book but right after the first movie came out a book came out detailing all the zen behind the movie. It was awesome insight.

sy2502
06-16-2014, 10:40 AM
I agree with you, that America is expectational. But I think our agreement as to why would end there. I'm not going to get into politics, political movements, or religious discussions. But the people who founded America had a great advantage that the rest of the world at the time did not, that is space and resources. Think about it, Europe was crowded and divided. If a county wanted more space, or more resources (i.e. land), they had to go to war against another county. In America, all we had to do was march west. Sure, we had to quell a few natives in the process, but that was no challenge using our technology. Throughout the 1700's, 1800's and even into the 1900's, America was able to expand its borders, and thus its resources, by simply moving west, at very little expense of capital or human life, while even a similar fractional expansion in Europe would have come at unimaginable economic and military loss, as demonstrated in the 20th century from the two world wars. Even today, look at a population map of the US compared to Europe. There is a vast gap in population between the mid west (say west of IL) and California. We still, even to this day 225 years later have room to expand and grow, while Europe is as crowded as ever.

As a European I have really come to appreciate and admire the level at which the US has taken Democracy. To give you an example, Italy is currently in the process of rewriting its electoral law, and I was following a political talk show on the subject of what guidelines the new law should follow. The consensus of the guests was that
- Governability should always be the priority, even at the expenses of representation.
- A bipartisan system is the best system therefore the law should be designed to produce a bipartisan government. Even if the voters don't seem to want a bipartisan government as the recent elections clearly demonstrated. But who cares what the voters want, what's really important is what's best for the government.

While I was hearing that, my ears were burning, and I had to remind myself Europe does NOT value democracy as much as the US, comes from a different political and cultural history, etc etc. But I sure am glad I live in a country that still values Democracy. Although in the 17 years I have been here, I have seen Democracy being eroded little by little in the US too. But that's a different story.

SP1966
06-16-2014, 10:42 AM
It appears American exceptionalism doesn't apply to the IRS IT department.

NorwichGrad
06-16-2014, 11:27 AM
As a European I have really come to appreciate and admire the level at which the US has taken Democracy. To give you an example, Italy is currently in the process of rewriting its electoral law, and I was following a political talk show on the subject of what guidelines the new law should follow. The consensus of the guests was that
- Governability should always be the priority, even at the expenses of representation.
- A bipartisan system is the best system therefore the law should be designed to produce a bipartisan government. Even if the voters don't seem to want a bipartisan government as the recent elections clearly demonstrated. But who cares what the voters want, what's really important is what's best for the government.

While I was hearing that, my ears were burning, and I had to remind myself Europe does NOT value democracy as much as the US, comes from a different political and cultural history, etc etc. But I sure am glad I live in a country that still values Democracy. Although in the 17 years I have been here, I have seen Democracy being eroded little by little in the US too. But that's a different story.

I know you’re a fellow Naturalized American.. I’ve been here since 1984 (I know, spooky). I have seen A LOT of erosion of our freedoms..

We are not a Democracy.. If you read the foundational documents that made America great ( Declaration of Independence and US Constitution and even the Federalist Papers), nowhere will you see the word ‘Democracy.’ We are a Republic.. Democracy is mob rule.. Majority rules is not always a good thing..


In fact, in a US Army Manual dated in 1954, the manual clearly stated the US is a Republic, and that Democracy leads to Socialism.


Imagine bodybuilding.com as a democracy. Imagine 100 bb.com members live in a Planet Fitness gym. Now imagine 60 members (majority rules, per Democracy) dictate that all 100 members should train at Planet Fitness as bodybuilders. What if I want to train as a weightlifter? I’m screwed.. What if Big Tall Ox wants to train as strongman? He’s screwed. What if Dave Wiggins wants to train as a powerlifter? He’s screwed. The ones that did not vote are screwed.

A Republic, on the other hand, will say ‘Okay, if you want to train as bodybuilders, then fine.. And if you want to train as weightlifter, powerlifter, strongman, or Zumba, that’s okay, too. As long as you are not infringing on the rights of others. Go train as you pleased because you, as the individual, know what’s best for you.”

If the individual is protected, the individual will blossom.. But if we allow the government to cookie-cutter the citizens via ‘Democracy,’ the individuals will be dehumanized.

The Founding Fathers gave us a Republic, and We the People failed to keep it.. We fukked up big time..

sy2502
06-16-2014, 11:32 AM
I know you’re a fellow Naturalized American.. I’ve been here since 1984 (I know, spooky). I have seen A LOT of erosion of our freedoms..

We are not a Democracy.. If you read the foundational documents that made America great ( Declaration of Independence and US Constitution and even the Federalist Papers), nowhere will you see the word ‘Democracy.’ We are a Republic.. Democracy is mob rule.. Majority rules is not always a good thing..


In fact, in a US Army Manual dated in 1954, the manual clearly stated the US is a Republic, and that Democracy leads to Socialism.


Imagine bodybuilding.com as a democracy. Imagine 100 bb.com members live in a Planet Fitness gym. Now imagine 60 members (majority rules, per Democracy) dictate that all 100 members should train at Planet Fitness as bodybuilders. What if I want to train as a weightlifter? I’m screwed.. What if Big Tall Ox wants to train as strongman? He’s screwed. What if Dave Wiggins wants to train as a powerlifter? He’s screwed. The ones that did not vote are screwed.

A Republic, on the other hand, will say ‘Okay, if you want to train as bodybuilders, then fine.. And if you want to train as weightlifter, powerlifter, strongman, or Zumba, that’s okay, too. As long as you are not infringing on the rights of others. Go train as you pleased because you, as the individual, know what’s best for you.”

If the individual is protected, the individual will blossom.. But if we allow the government to cookie-cutter the citizens via ‘Democracy,’ the individuals will be dehumanized.

The Founding Fathers gave us a Republic, and We the People failed to keep it.. We fukked up big time..

There are different types of Democracy. Direct Democracy is what you are talking about, which is exactly what you described, mob rule. Another type of Democracy is Representative Democracy, or Indirect Democracy, of which the American Republic is an example.

NorwichGrad
06-16-2014, 11:37 AM
There are different types of Democracy. Direct Democracy is what you are talking about, which is exactly what you described, mob rule. Another type of Democracy is Representative Democracy, or Indirect Democracy, of which the American Republic is an example.

Whew.. OK.. Glad to see that you understand.. :)

I wasn't trying to be a smartass about my previous post.. But, as you know, there are lots of US-born Americans that truly believe we are a direct democracy.. And frankly, that scares the $hit out of me..

sy2502
06-16-2014, 11:46 AM
Whew.. OK.. Glad to see that you understand.. :)

I wasn't trying to be a smartass about my previous post.. But, as you know, there are lots of US-born Americans that truly believe we are a direct democracy.. And frankly, that scares the $hit out of me..

Given the US has 300 million people, I seriously doubt anyone would think all 300 million regularly get to have a direct say in the daily making of government decisions.

Phattso
06-16-2014, 01:28 PM
Given the US has 300 million people, I seriously doubt anyone would think all 300 million regularly get to have a direct say in the daily making of government decisions.

True, but with the current admin, 100% of the 300 million have no say in government decisions.

sy2502
06-16-2014, 02:13 PM
True, but with the current admin, 100% of the 300 million have no say in government decisions.

http://troll.me/images/pissed-off-obama/youre-not-funny.jpg






:D

Brackneyc
06-16-2014, 03:38 PM
Given the US has 300 million people, I seriously doubt anyone would think all 300 million regularly get to have a direct say in the daily making of government decisions.


When they reaching the age to vote, 100% of "those" 300m have direct say in their government. Almost half of that group will stay home and bitch about how things are, but rest assured, they have a "say."

Phattso
06-16-2014, 04:07 PM
http://troll.me/images/pissed-off-obama/youre-not-funny.jpg

:D

Thanks for scaring the peewillies out of me, Ms. Sy :p

Brackneyc
06-16-2014, 04:11 PM
But the real question is, does it really matter color the matrix says your shirt is, or what color you think it is?


IDK, Copper Top.

sy2502
06-16-2014, 05:05 PM
When they reaching the age to vote, 100% of "those" 300m have direct say in their government. Almost half of that group will stay home and bitch about how things are, but rest assured, they have a "say."

They have a say on who will go to Congress and have the "real" say.

Brackneyc
06-16-2014, 05:09 PM
They have a say on who will go to Congress and have the "real" say.

They keep sending the same people back there. One can only assume that those folks getting the votes are representing their voters.

JediRN
06-16-2014, 05:49 PM
True, but with the current admin, 100% of the 300 million have no say in government decisions.
can you back that statement up?


When they reaching the age to vote, 100% of "those" 300m have direct say in their government. Almost half of that group will stay home and bitch about how things are, but rest assured, they have a "say."

would you agree that the responsibility of our problems is that of the voters more than the politicians.

I believe that not voting is a right too. in fact I would say that a low voter turnout signifies general contentment.

They keep sending the same people back there. One can only assume that those folks getting the votes are representing their voters.

Phattso
06-16-2014, 06:12 PM
can you back that statement up?

would you agree that the responsibility of our problems is that of the voters more than the politicians.



Can you prove that it is not true?

Oceanside
06-16-2014, 07:55 PM
I'd just like to say that I've been to Australia and with the exception of the McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken there in Sydney....



the food really sucked !

Phattso
06-16-2014, 08:04 PM
I'd just like to say that I've been to Australia and with the exception of the McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken there in Sydney....



the food really sucked !

When you went to KFC there, did you believe it was really chicken?

djflex
06-16-2014, 08:06 PM
I'd just like to say that I've been to Australia and with the exception of the McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken there in Sydney....



the food really sucked !

Wut?

So outback steakhouse isnt onevery corner?

Oceanside
06-16-2014, 08:17 PM
it's common practice for aussies to put eggplant on their hamburgers.....


and they wonder why we don't take them serious or recognize their Government !

SP1966
06-16-2014, 08:23 PM
I'd just like to say that I've been to Australia and with the exception of the McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken there in Sydney....



the food really sucked !

They're pretty much upside down Canadians.

acrawlingchaos
06-16-2014, 08:25 PM
They have a say on who will go to Congress and have the "real" say.I know here in New England, local government is a direct democracy using the "Town Meeting" format. These make becoming politically involved on the local level very easy.

The purpose of pushing for "small government", is because the individual voice is heard more clearly.

jeffaus
06-16-2014, 08:30 PM
it's common practice for aussies to put eggplant on their hamburgers.....


and they wonder why we don't take them serious or recognize their Government !We don't want you to recognise us. We prefer to stay under the radar, otherwise you pricks are just as likely to turn on us and send in the drones. If you don't love Straya, then you don't love fun. And a couple of last things, How the fkc did you get past the drug sniffing beagles at customs? and how did you not get attacked by a 7 foot bulked up Roo or a vampire toothed drop bear? And we only put eggplant on the hamburgers of dumb ass tourists that we don't want there.

SP1966
06-16-2014, 08:59 PM
The purpose of pushing for "small government", is because the individual voice is heard more clearly.

The further away they move the money the less oversight they'll be under. anybody who's followed the IRS debacle will understand the dangers of big, make that BIG government. Outright disregard for the law and thumbing their noses at Congress when they ask for details.

jeffaus
06-16-2014, 09:00 PM
They're pretty much upside down Canadians.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/phoonf6/i1abfs.jpg (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/phoonf6/media/i1abfs.jpg.html)

JediRN
06-16-2014, 09:07 PM
Can you prove that it is not true?
I recall voting in the last election and anticipate that I will in the next. Although I do not have a direct say in the government decisions, as per the wisdom of our founding fathers, my vote and therefore my say will go to the candidate I agree with the most or against the candidate I fear the most.

If I were to guess, I would say that you too have had opportunities to vote or not vote based on your own personal inclinations. Have you not been able too based on actions of the current administration?

I'm not certain how you came to the understanding that the current adminstration altered or goverment system away from being a Federal Republic. Please enlighten me as this would be of considerable interest to all.

JRT6
06-16-2014, 09:14 PM
I read somewhere that the majority of active voters don't pay taxes. Who's being represented now.

SP1966
06-16-2014, 09:23 PM
I read somewhere that the majority of active voters don't pay taxes. Who's being represented now.

I read somewhere that the majority of active voters pay union dues. :eek:

JRT6
06-16-2014, 09:24 PM
I read somewhere that the majority of active voters pay union dues. :eek:

God I hope so.

SP1966
06-16-2014, 09:25 PM
God I hope so.

Explains why they keep voting for more corruption!

JediRN
06-16-2014, 09:38 PM
Explains why they keep voting for more corruption!
The day after a member of Congress gets elected they have to immiediately start fund raising for the next election. I believe that most of the corruption can be attributed to the fact that campaigns are so expensive and Congress makes the laws regarding Campaign finance. Thanks to the Citizens United ruling, the wealthy can put as much into the election system as they want making corruption even easier. Lobbiest, special interests and an obscene amount of money seeems to be the unholy trifecta of our curruption problems. I don't see that this is a problem unique to either party. It's just the way it is, now.

SP1966
06-16-2014, 09:53 PM
The day after a member of Congress gets elected they have to immiediately start fund raising for the next election. I believe that most of the corruption can be attributed to the fact that campaigns are so expensive and Congress makes the laws regarding Campaign finance. Thanks to the Citizens United ruling, the wealthy can put as much into the election system as they want making corruption even easier. Lobbiest, special interests and an obscene amount of money seeems to be the unholy trifecta of our curruption problems. I don't see that this is a problem unique to either party. It's just the way it is, now.

Whats important, re-election or making the country a better place for all? The problem isn't really money, the problem is self serving politicians who're there for themselves and not as the public service it was envisioned as. The only reason term limits weren't enacted for Congress originally is they couldn't see how anybody would make the sacrifices long term that were required back then. Of course the scum we have now have ensured that sacrifice is not part of their personal vocabulary.

JRT6
06-16-2014, 10:36 PM
Explains why they keep voting for more corruption!

Blanket generalization proves nothing. Sorry.

JediRN
06-16-2014, 10:37 PM
Whats important, re-election or making the country a better place for all? The problem isn't really money, the problem is self serving politicians who're there for themselves and not as the public service it was envisioned as. The only reason term limits weren't enacted for Congress originally is they couldn't see how anybody would make the sacrifices long term that were required back then. Of course the scum we have now have ensured that sacrifice is not part of their personal vocabulary.

I see your point.

Sometimes I get the impression that many congressmen have determined that it is in THEIR best interest to keep us common people divided on the "hot button" topics to keep us from focusing on the insidious problems of the institutions of government. I'm not saying that these hot button topics, (gun control, healthcare, taxation, etc.) are NOT important, but they are easy to use to divide people. Each side dumbs down their position to something that will fit on a bumper sticker and overly exaggerates the other sides position to create fear. As conservative and liberals viscously defend their positions, the politicians stay where they are and happily count the $$$. I don't think this is 100% true, but I do think it is true enough to keep the same ol’ game going.

Phattso
06-17-2014, 05:22 AM
Please enlighten me as this would be of considerable interest to all.

You do a pretty good job of enlightening yourself with your over-inflated liberal ego without me adding to it. Also, it's nice to hear that you are the self-appointed spokesman of the board, i.e. your reference that "this would be of considerable interest to all." I'm sure the entire board appreciates you speaking for them since obvious everyone agrees with you. Right?


I recall voting in the last election and anticipate that I will in the next. Although I do not have a direct say in the government decisions, as per the wisdom of our founding fathers, my vote and therefore my say will go to the candidate I agree with the most or against the candidate I fear the most.

If I were to guess, I would say that you too have had opportunities to vote or not vote based on your own personal inclinations. Have you not been able too based on actions of the current administration?

FYI, when I wrote "100% of the 300 million have no say in government decisions," it was tongue and cheek. I thought it was obvious sarcasm. However, I believe there was some truth in my answer, though. Aside from voting, Obama makes decisions based upon the bubble he is living in, as in anti-business, anti-energy, anti-capitalism, anti-success, penalize success, make his followers believe that if someone is financially successful, then they obviously did something unethical or illegal to get there, always playing the victim, plays the race card, anti-military to name a few.

Bill Clinton had no issues with success, business or the military.

As far as the so-called income gap - in my opinion, it comes down to the individual. You and I have choices in our education and ambitions. Obama wants to make the less ambitious and the free-loaders to get handouts to match people who provide jobs and who stimulate the economy.

Yes, the majority voted for Obama. However, he is not living up to the promises he made and why he became President. He is acting out an agenda of retribution and abuse of power. Example using the IRS as a weapon. Lying about Benghazi. He has caused the most divisive environment I have ever witnessed among people in my lifetime. We are not better off than we were two years ago or six years ago. The country is in a civil war of politics from both sides.

...

JediRN
06-17-2014, 05:38 AM
You do a pretty good job of enlightening yourself with your over-inflated liberal ego without me adding to it.
...

Woe.. I voted for "W" not once but twice. I obviously have the capacity to be dumber than a box of rocks. No justification for an ego here.



...and I'm sorry I took you seriously, I'll try not to make that same mistake in the future.

Phattso
06-17-2014, 07:05 AM
Woe.. I voted for "W" not once but twice. I obviously have the capacity to be dumber than a box of rocks. No justification for an ego here.



...and I'm sorry I took you seriously, I'll try not to make that same mistake in the future.

No reason to be sorry. You are respected here just as much as anyone.

thomashenry
06-17-2014, 08:26 AM
A Great Many interesting opinions I have read, some I agree with Some Not, be that as it may, I enjoy all of them, I obviously have my own opinions on this great Nation, most of which who know me have an idea as to how I believe, seeing I have never been shy about them, A Christian Constitutional Conservative.

Personally, I believe we are a Constitutional Republic, with a Representative forum of Limited Federal G`ovt & by the consent of the Governed, A Civil & Just Society based on the Rule of Law, at least that is how I interpret the Founding Fathers and who influenced them, Locke, Smith, Burke, De Montesquieu and as Madison in Federalist 51 said about Gov`t : " The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed;"

On my View Personally of Conservatism, I believe in the Dignity of an Individual & his or her Right to Live Freely in a just and civil society based on faith & values, That Private Property and my hard earned labor is just that, to share with my Family, and If I choose to be benevolent/contribute to my community I do it in a manner as I see fit with it, I choose, not forced, noting that I have an earnest obligation to improve my society as best I can, and am capable within reason.


I agree with the Declaration of Independence, That they are GOD given natural rights, not rights that any ruler or Government can take away/confiscate, contrary to the current crop & past of both Liberal and Establishment Republicans Politicians, who adhere and forward/promote the thought of being subordinate to an all encompassing ubiquitous top down all powerful central Gov`t where they dictate and manipulate individuals en masse for their own goals & benefits, that mindset leads to {inequality} coercion with seemingly benevolent ends which is a ruse, it threatens individual liberty/freedom and civil society, because it leads to a stamping out, snuffing of Individual Liberty, self reliance, ambition, accountability, and in Gov`t Forum, tyranny, a dependent nanny state.

I oppose the Progressive taxation of Americans, Global Warming {religion of the left} , Environmental regulations, Nationalized Healthcare, Cap & Trade, I don`t believe n our Current Immigration Policy which is in part dictated/influenced by Foreign Gov`t`s, nor a Multi culturalism/balkanization of America taking away from being an AMERICAN an assimilation into being an American, Equal, not separate! coming here legally. None of these IMO promote or foster Individual Freedom, a Civil Society.

Conservatism is the BEDROCK of American Society, the DIGNITY of the Individual to Live Freely, and with it, the Opportunity for anyone, from all walks of Life, natural born or legal immigrant to take advantage of a concept that no nation has ever offered in such abundance

NorwichGrad
06-17-2014, 01:13 PM
Indeed^^..

That’s why the Founders “Declared” freedom.. They believed that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness can only be granted by the Creator. And they believed that these rights are not only for Americans, but for all men (and women).. They DID NOT BELIEVE that these rights are BESTOWED by governments or kings, rather they are God-given rights..

As a result, 11 years after the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution was ratified in order to LEGALIZE these rights.. If you read the Bill of Rights, they are about limiting the role of the government so that the individual is protected. They believed that if the individual is protected, the individual will blossom. If the individual blossoms, families will be stronger, communities will be stronger, counties and states will be stronger, and the Nation will be stronger, because the Individual was allowed to be all he/she can be..

Freedom is simple. It is tyranny that is complicated. (Look at obamacare.. How many pages are in that crap that congress did not even bother to read?)

The US has the least amount of Amendments in its Constitution, yet is used to be the freest country in the world. (India has the most Amendments with at least 400 amendments.)

The greater the freedom, the greater the wealth. The greater the government, the greater the poverty..

If you don’t believe me, look at North and South Korea.. And look at the former East and West Germany.

North and South Korea. The same language, the same culture, the same ethnicity, the same climate. North Korea has 75% arable land. They have more natural resources than South Korea. One has freedom, the other has tyranny.. South Korea has the 10th largest economy in the world. North Korea has lots of ‘free’ government sponsored programs. 2 million North Koreans starve every year.

Former East and West Germany. The same language, the same culture, the same ethnicity, the same climate. West Germany at the time had 10 times higher standard of living the their East German brothers. One was free, one was oppressed. Also, you never heard of any West German trying to climb the wall into the other side. I wonder why that is?

Another example is legal immigrants that come to the US. Statistically, they are 5 times likely to become wealthy than their US-Born counterparts. Is it because we immigrants are smart? $hit NO!! I was the first Asian kid in high-school to get a D in Calculus. Legal immigrants have a higher rate of success in the US simply because WE GOT MORE FREEDOM, and we took advantage of that instead of bitching and moaning..

I say again cuz it bears repeating:

a) Freedom is simple. It is tyranny that is complicated.

b) The greater the freedom, the greater the wealth. The greater the government, the greater the poverty..

sy2502
06-17-2014, 01:49 PM
Indeed^^..

That’s why the Founders “Declared” freedom.. They believed that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness can only be granted by the Creator. And they believed that these rights are not only for Americans, but for all men (and women)..

No they didn't.

thomashenry
06-17-2014, 02:18 PM
No they didn't. I`m wondering what your thoughts are, expand upon your answer please , if your stating the obvious, that God gave us freedom, then I agree as well, however it may just be splitting hairs to the extent that man can ! Even though, insofar our founders declared it through Providence, In the Declaration,--{"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"

As Opposed or in conjunction with,

John 8:36


36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed {That in and of Itself is a Declaration and Promise to All People }

Which IMO has far more Importance to it.

Maybe I`m off with your Opinion

daPhats
06-17-2014, 02:29 PM
There is no rational reason why a small republican experiment in 1776 grew to dominate global culture and society----except, that AMERICA, is THE only Nation on earth, past or present, that put the trust of the Individual, rather than in the state or elite bureaucracy. Such confidence in the average citizen is WHAT makes AMERICA EXCEPTIONAL !

This is a joke right? It's so ignorant I'm embarrassed to read it.

You sound like you have no knowledge of anything that exists outside of our borders.

sy2502
06-17-2014, 02:34 PM
I`m wondering what your thoughts are, expand upon your answer please
The poster I replied to made the assertion the Founding Fathers believed in the rights of all men and women. They didn't. They were slave owners, and they didn't believe women had the same rights as men.


if your stating the obvious, that God gave us freedom, then I agree as well, however it may just be splitting hairs to the extent that man can ! Even though, insofar our founders declared it through Providence, In the Declaration,--{"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"

As Opposed or in conjunction with,

John 8:36


36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed {That in and of Itself is a Declaration and Promise to All People }

Which IMO has far more Importance to it.

Maybe I`m off with your Opinion

I don't believe in God and don't consider the Bible an authority.

eomrat
06-17-2014, 02:37 PM
This is a joke right? It's so ignorant I'm embarrassed to read it.

Thank you for your intelligent and well thought out contribution.

thomashenry
06-17-2014, 02:41 PM
This is a joke right? It's so ignorant I'm embarrassed to read it.

You sound like you have no knowledge of anything that exists outside of our borders. Shouldn't`t you be in a dark room or basement Tommyhawking your geranium to something obscure and simply not right

daPhats
06-17-2014, 02:42 PM
Thank you for your intelligent and well thought out contribution.

Well considering we're ranked around 7th in the world in overall freedom I find the OP's rant to be rather ignorant. There are so many other countries that are just as well off as us with the same rights and freedoms. Claiming we're the only country on earth that puts trust in its people is absurd. The OP should have just said "USA, USA, USA".

thomashenry
06-17-2014, 02:43 PM
The poster I replied to made the assertion the Founding Fathers believed in the rights of all men and women. They didn't. They were slave owners, and they didn't believe women had the same rights as men.



I don't believe in God and don't consider the Bible an authority. Interesting but that is an entire different discussion I would say, God & the Bible that is

sy2502
06-17-2014, 02:57 PM
Interesting but that is an entire different discussion I would say, God & the Bible that is

Well, as soon as people start throwing Bible verses around I tend to stop reading.

thomashenry
06-17-2014, 03:11 PM
Well, as soon as people start throwing Bible verses around I tend to stop reading. Well don`t know what to say about that, I only used one in comparison purposes , that's all in equating freedom

NorwichGrad
06-17-2014, 04:27 PM
No they didn't.


Yes they did.. It is well-documented..

Everybody has God-given rights. The problem is that in most countries, the minute a baby is born, the government (or regime) of that country immediately takes the rights away from that newborn. I was born in the Philippines. The second I was born, dictator Ferdinand Marcos took my rights away. When my engineer friend was born in Romania, the communist state took his rights away the second he was born..

You said the Fathers were slave owners. Yes they were.. Slavery had already been in existence in North America for couple of hundred of years before they were even born.. They were born into it.. The fact was that the Fathers abhorred slavery.. They thought it was evil. With the exception of Thomas Jefferson, the Fathers freed their slaves after the Revolution. George Washington, for example, did not want to break up families, which is why he kept his slaves until after the Revolution when he felt assured that there was a system in place that would allow his former slaves to be self-proficient.


And when they wrote himself, him, etc.. they also meant herself, her, she.. They were not sexist like the present day media want to make them.

Brackneyc
06-17-2014, 04:36 PM
Well considering we're ranked around 7th in the world in overall freedom I find the OP's rant to be rather ignorant. There are so many other countries that are just as well off as us with the same rights and freedoms. Claiming we're the only country on earth that puts trust in its people is absurd. The OP should have just said "USA, USA, USA".


Well, this is an easy fix....name those "many" countries you speak of. To ensure an apples to apples comparison, run down their "rights" as a comparison to the ones found in the USA. IOW, we have rights which are backed by a living document and a Supreme Court. I assume those "many" nations you speak of have a similar (or better) set of rules, backed by such an organization.

sy2502
06-17-2014, 04:54 PM
Yes they did.. It is well-documented..

Everybody has God-given rights. The problem is that in most countries, the minute a baby is born, the government (or regime) of that country immediately takes the rights away from that newborn. I was born in the Philippines. The second I was born, dictator Ferdinand Marcos took my rights away. When my engineer friend was born in Romania, the communist state took his rights away the second he was born..

You said the Fathers were slave owners. Yes they were.. Slavery had already been in existence in North America for couple of hundred of years before they were even born.. They were born into it.. The fact was that the Fathers abhorred slavery.. They thought it was evil. With the exception of Thomas Jefferson, the Fathers freed their slaves after the Revolution. George Washington, for example, did not want to break up families, which is why he kept his slaves until after the Revolution when he felt assured that there was a system in place that would allow his former slaves to be self-proficient.


And when they wrote himself, him, etc.. they also meant herself, her, she.. They were not sexist like the present day media want to make them.

We had to make constitutional amendments to allow blacks and women to vote. Come on man! If they were for it, they'd have put it in the Constitution from the beginning. Hey they reflected the culture of their time, it's pretty obvious. So let's not try to make them into what they weren't.

so-tex
06-17-2014, 04:58 PM
We had to make constitutional amendments to allow blacks and women to vote. Come on man! If they were for it, they'd have put it in the Constitution from the beginning. Hey they reflected the culture of their time, it's pretty obvious. So let's not try to make them into what they weren't.Actually, not everybody had the right to vote. You had to be a landowner, businessman or a productive member to society.

NorwichGrad
06-17-2014, 06:36 PM
We had to make constitutional amendments to allow blacks and women to vote. Come on man! If they were for it, they'd have put it in the Constitution from the beginning. Hey they reflected the culture of their time, it's pretty obvious. So let's not try to make them into what they weren't.

Slavery existed for thousands of years..

Because of the writings of the Fathers, slavery was abolished within 100 years.

Sorry that those "racist, sexist, old, white men" were not fast enough in allowing blacks and women to vote. I apologize on their behalf..

sy2502
06-17-2014, 06:59 PM
Slavery existed for thousands of years..

Because of the writings of the Fathers, slavery was abolished within 100 years.

Sorry that those "racist, sexist, old, white men" were not fast enough in allowing blacks and women to vote. I apologize on their behalf..
There's no need to apologize in behalf of anyone. It's what happened. Whether we like it or not has no effect on it. Let's just not pretend it happened differently, shall we? ;)

eomrat
06-17-2014, 07:00 PM
Slavery existed for thousands of years..

Because of the writings of the Fathers, slavery was abolished within 100 years.


........in America.


Slavery is still very much alive and well, in fact thriving, in Africa and Asia and much of Europe and other parts of this wonderful world.

JRT6
06-17-2014, 07:52 PM
Slavery existed for thousands of years..

Because of the writings of the Fathers, slavery was abolished within 100 years.

Sorry that those "racist, sexist, old, white men" were not fast enough in allowing blacks and women to vote. I apologize on their behalf..

Yeah just because the constitution originally mandated that it took three slaves to count as one person...

eomrat
06-17-2014, 07:57 PM
Yeah just because the constitution originally mandated that it took three slaves to count as one person...

Lol.

You might want to actually look that up. The Constitution that is.

Brackneyc
06-17-2014, 08:08 PM
Lol.

You might want to actually look that up. The Constitution that is.


Won't happen.

JRT6
06-17-2014, 08:12 PM
Lol.

You might want to actually look that up. The Constitution that is.

http://americanhistory.about.com/od/usconstitution/f/slavery.htm. RBAY bud.

so-tex
06-17-2014, 08:14 PM
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/usconstitution/f/slavery.htm. RBAY bud.You just proved eomrat's point.

ArchAngel'73
06-17-2014, 08:23 PM
Oh Canada




O Canada! Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land, glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee;
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.





O Canada! Where pines and maples grow,
Great prairies spread and Lordly rivers flow!
How dear to us thy broad domain,
From East to Western sea!
The land of hope for all who toil,
The true North strong and free!
God keep our land, glorious and free.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!





O Canada! Beneath thy shining skies,
May Stalwart sons, and gentle maidens rise.
To keep thee steadfast thro’ the years,
From East to Western sea.
Our own beloved native land,
Our true North strong and free!
God keep our land, glorious and free.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!





Ruler supreme, who hearest humble prayer,
Hold our Dominion, in thy loving care.
Help us to find, O God, in thee,
A lasting rich reward.
As waiting for the better day,
We ever stand on guard.
God keep our land, glorious and free.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

JRT6
06-17-2014, 08:26 PM
I got the constitution part wrong but it doesn't change the fact that the founding fathers thought slaves were less than human and did nothing but try to ingrain that in the founding of this country regardless of right wing fantasies and revisionist history.

ArchAngel'73
06-17-2014, 08:27 PM
If you will, note the resemblance of

"Canada" to "Canaan"-the land promised by God to His chosen

Coincidence?
I think not.

:D :p

eomrat
06-17-2014, 08:37 PM
I got the constitution part wrong but it doesn't change the fact that the founding fathers thought slaves were less than human and did nothing but try to ingrain that in the founding of this country regardless of right wing fantasies and revisionist history.

Again, you should probably study up on that a bit.

The "Founding Fathers" were of mixed mind about slavery, as they were about many things. That's just the way humans are.

If you want to know about our nation's history you may want to try a little harder than about.com.

JRT6
06-17-2014, 08:42 PM
Thanks for the lecture. You never disappoint.

jeffaus
06-17-2014, 09:49 PM
I'll just leave this here.

"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."
-President Woodrow Wilson

JediRN
06-17-2014, 10:53 PM
Well, as soon as people start throwing Bible verses around I tend to stop reading.

It's difficult to understand American history without an appreciation for it's religious roots. It was predominantly Christian. As a fellow Atheist I can see how it is diffficult to reconcile religion with government. There is separation of Church and state, but it was the majority opinion of the founding fathers that God does exist.

Some were fundementalist, but many of the thought leaders were Deist, believing that although GOD exist and is the creator he does not interfere in the natural world. They did not believe that God talks directly to humans, answers prayers or performs miracles. Thomas Payne, Thomas Jefferson and the brilliant scientific mind of Benjamin Franklin were all Deist. They believed in Reason and not the dogmatic preaching and beliefs of religious leaders. They tended too believe in the common teachings of all religions minus the divine aspects and placed a high value on scientific thought. It was after all the Age of Reason. Today many of the founding fathers would be called "Liberals"

I would think that the OP would have a difficult time reconciling his religious beliefs with the Deistic beliefs of Thomas Jefferson et. al.


Yes they did.. It is well-documented..

And when they wrote himself, him, etc.. they also meant herself, her, she.. They were not sexist like the present day media want to make them.

Certainly some of the founding fathers were pro-slavery, hence the Great Compromise that allowed the formation of the Union. One thing that is missing in our current political structure is the reluctance of predominatly the far Right (and enough of the Left to be blameful also) to compromise. Had the founding fathers been as obstinate to compromise as the current crop of Republicans in Congress this Union would never have happened.


Slavery existed for thousands of years..

Because of the writings of the Fathers, slavery was abolished within 100 years.

Sorry that those "racist, sexist, old, white men" were not fast enough in allowing blacks and women to vote. I apologize on their behalf..

It was just the times. History should in my opinion be examined by the values of the time.


Again, you should probably study up on that a bit.

Actually this thread has inspired me to study up a bit on Early American history too. It may be one of those elitist leftist liberal tendencies of mine but I think it's not only important to know what you believe but WHY you believe it.

NorwichGrad
06-18-2014, 02:34 AM
I'll just leave this here.

"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."
-President Woodrow Wilson

Thank you for this, Jeff..

Woodrow Wilson was also the architect of the Versailles Treaty, which was the root cause of WWII..


AND, something very few Americans know about this President.


He approved the Federal Reserve.. There is absolutely nothing 'federal' about it, and they have no 'reserve.' It is a central bank made of 5 European banks and 3 Americans. The Fed is the reason we have income tax - so that the regular Schmoe can 'pay' the Fed for printing fiat money..

On his deathbed, Woodrow basically said, "Holy, phuck.. I think I phucked the American people when I approved the Fed."

That was the third time, btw, the central bank tried to infiltrate the American system.. Andrew Jackson successfully fought hard to prevent the central bank from getting into the system years prior.

NorwichGrad
06-18-2014, 02:38 AM
It's difficult to understand American history without an appreciation for it's religious roots. It was predominantly Christian. As a fellow Atheist I can see how it is diffficult to reconcile religion with government. There is separation of Church and state, but it was the majority opinion of the founding fathers that God does exist.

Some were fundementalist, but many of the thought leaders were Deist, believing that although GOD exist and is the creator he does not interfere in the natural world. They did not believe that God talks directly to humans, answers prayers or performs miracles. Thomas Payne, Thomas Jefferson and the brilliant scientific mind of Benjamin Franklin were all Deist. They believed in Reason and not the dogmatic preaching and beliefs of religious leaders. They tended too believe in the common teachings of all religions minus the divine aspects and placed a high value on scientific thought. It was after all the Age of Reason. Today many of the founding fathers would be called "Liberals"

I would think that the OP would have a difficult time reconciling his religious beliefs with the Deistic beliefs of Thomas Jefferson et. al.



Certainly some of the founding fathers were pro-slavery, hence the Great Compromise that allowed the formation of the Union. One thing that is missing in our current political structure is the reluctance of predominatly the far Right (and enough of the Left to be blameful also) to compromise. Had the founding fathers been as obstinate to compromise as the current crop of Republicans in Congress this Union would never have happened.



It was just the times. History should in my opinion be examined by the values of the time.



Actually this thread has inspired me to study up a bit on Early American history too. It may be one of those elitist leftist liberal tendencies of mine but I think it's not only important to know what you believe but WHY you believe it.


Thank you for keeping an open-mind..

proliferssuck
06-18-2014, 06:44 AM
USA isn't exceptional.

Phattso
06-18-2014, 07:03 AM
USA isn't exceptional.

The mentally ill troll strikes again. LOL.

proliferssuck
06-18-2014, 07:07 AM
The mentally ill troll strikes again. LOL.

You're an ass hole pro lifer. You're mentally ill. Pro lifers suck.

thomashenry
06-18-2014, 07:57 AM
I got the constitution part wrong but it doesn't change the fact that the founding fathers thought slaves were less than human and did nothing but try to ingrain that in the founding of this country regardless of right wing fantasies and revisionist history.----------------Here ya go this is not revisionist It is Actual




While the compromise on representation was a critical turning point at the Convention, the issue of slavery was just as important. While Northerners were, to varying degrees, opposed to the South's "peculiar institution," Southerners believed that their economic well-being depended on the slave trade. They declared that they would walk out of the Convention before they consented to a government that disallowed slavery. Similar objections from the South had been raised during the deliberations of Second Continental Congress. The Declaration of Independence had originally included a rejection of slavery as immoral, but Southern state delegates refused to sign it until the statement was removed.

Once again, the rest of the delegates were forced to choose between condemning slavery outright or condoning it so the broader interests of the nation could be pursued. It was not an easy choice.

On the issue of slave trade, the proposal was made that slaves could be "imported" for twenty years after the Constitution was ratified, after which bringing new slaves into the country would be illegal. Of this provision, Madison originally remarked:

Twenty years will produce all the mischief that can be apprehended from the liberty to import slaves. So long a term will be more dishonorable to the National character than to say nothing about it in the Constitution.6

To secure the support of the Southern states for the Constitution, however, it was a compromise that Madison later embraced. In The Federalist No. 42, he wrote:

It ought to be considered as a great point gained in favor of humanity, that a period of twenty years may terminate forever, within these States, a traffic which has long and so loudly upbraided the barbarism of modern policy; that within that period it will receive considerable discouragement from the Federal government and be totally abolished, by a concurrence of the few States which continue the unnatural traffic in the prohibitory example which has been given by so great a majority of the Union. Happy would it be for the unfortunate Africans if an equal prospect lay before them of being redeemed from the oppression of their European brethren!

Also at issue was how slaves were to be counted for purposes of representation and taxation. Delegates from the Southern states wanted slaves to be counted for the purposes of allotting congressional seats to the states, but not for the purposes of levying taxes. This, of course, was not acceptable to the Northern states who were not inclined to let the South have it both ways. They would either have to count them for both purposes or for neither. Once again, the convention was at an impasse. It was the second major compromise of the summer that salvaged the Convention once again. Under the so-called Three-Fifths Compromise, slaves would be counted as 3/5 of a person for both purposes. While seemingly an arbitrary number, by counting only three out of every five slaves, there would be a rough balance in representation between the Northern and Southern states in the new Congress. This was important to the Southern delegates because they feared that a North-dominated Congress would outlaw slavery as one of its first items of business.

While it is easy to second-guess the decisions made about slavery at the Constitutional Convention, the delegates left with no illusions that the slavery question had been permanently solved. Instead, it had been put off until a later date. Indeed, given the violence with which the Southern states opposed the abolition of slavery during the Civil War, it is certain that the United States of America, as it was established by the 1787 Constitution, would have never existed if compromises on slavery had not been made.

daPhats
06-18-2014, 10:38 AM
Well, this is an easy fix....name those "many" countries you speak of. To ensure an apples to apples comparison, run down their "rights" as a comparison to the ones found in the USA. IOW, we have rights which are backed by a living document and a Supreme Court. I assume those "many" nations you speak of have a similar (or better) set of rules, backed by such an organization.

What's the point of running down everything? It's already been studied by professionals.

You can look through every freedom index on the list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices and we aren't at the top of any of them. Even the gun freedom index if you can believe it. Yemen beat us.

I'm not saying we aren't a great country, just that there are many great countries just like us. I cant stand blindly absurd patriotic statements like the OP made. It makes us look like the ignorant Americans that everyone thinks we are.

Brackneyc
06-18-2014, 11:25 AM
What's the point of running down everything? It's already been studied by professionals.

You can look through every freedom index on the list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices and we aren't at the top of any of them. Even the gun freedom index if you can believe it. Yemen beat us.

I'm not saying we aren't a great country, just that there are many great countries just like us. I cant stand blindly absurd patriotic statements like the OP made. It makes us look like the ignorant Americans that everyone thinks we are.

Sounded like you were well versed on the topic, so humor me.

Fishman15
06-18-2014, 11:56 AM
What's the point of running down everything? It's already been studied by professionals.

You can look through every freedom index on the list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices and we aren't at the top of any of them. Even the gun freedom index if you can believe it. Yemen beat us.

I'm not saying we aren't a great country, just that there are many great countries just like us. I cant stand blindly absurd patriotic statements like the OP made. It makes us look like the ignorant Americans that everyone thinks we are.

Yemen sounds like a cool place to live...

sy2502
06-18-2014, 11:57 AM
It's difficult to understand American history without an appreciation for it's religious roots. It was predominantly Christian. As a fellow Atheist I can see how it is diffficult to reconcile religion with government. There is separation of Church and state, but it was the majority opinion of the founding fathers that God does exist.

The poster in question has a history of proselytizing on this forum. Maybe I should have specified that when I see one of his posts AND it throws Bible verses around, I stop reading. But I didn't want to make him feel bad about himself.

thomashenry
06-18-2014, 01:24 PM
The poster in question has a history of proselytizing on this forum. Maybe I should have specified that when I see one of his posts AND it throws Bible verses around, I stop reading. But I didn't want to make him feel bad about himself. It`s Tom, or Tommy Or Thomas or Thomashenry LOL not OP :], and being offended, thin skinned, overly sensitive, in need of therapy {although some may suggest strongly} hurt or feel bad Don`t worry, Honestly aside from my so called Proselytizing, among many other traits, some may call rude, Bloviating, insightful, honest, even Loudmouth, Azz, & some may throw in the word hole to finish also, many others I am certain, however I am a pretty open minded and reasonable Guy & like to converse on an array of subjects,, I don`t get offended easily, pissed off yes, but not too worry, I am always willing to listen and respond no matter the subject, I don`t stop reading & Learning even if I do not like it { I didn't toss any verses in when I was describing a certain Sicilian :]}, I have many posts in which I don`t SHARE my beliefs ! trust me

sy2502
06-18-2014, 03:06 PM
It`s Tom, or Tommy Or Thomas or Thomashenry LOL not OP :], and being offended, thin skinned, overly sensitive, in need of therapy {although some may suggest strongly} hurt or feel bad Don`t worry, Honestly aside from my so called Proselytizing, among many other traits, some may call rude, Bloviating, insightful, honest, even Loudmouth, Azz, & some may throw in the word hole to finish also, many others I am certain, however I am a pretty open minded and reasonable Guy & like to converse on an array of subjects,, I don`t get offended easily, pissed off yes, but not too worry, I am always willing to listen and respond no matter the subject, I don`t stop reading & Learning even if I do not like it { I didn't toss any verses in when I was describing a certain Sicilian :]}, I have many posts in which I don`t SHARE my beliefs ! trust me

Sorry Tom, I didn't scroll up to check your name, it wasn't intended to belittle you. You are entirely free to post exactly what you want whenever you want it, that's the beauty of a free country. And I can choose to read it or not, which is also the beauty of a free country. I know people's religions are very important to them, and many are very touchy about the subject, and I don't think it's good manners to offend them on this subject. Even when they claim to have a thick skin ;)

JediRN
06-18-2014, 10:34 PM
On my View Personally of Conservatism, I believe in the Dignity of an Individual & his or her Right to Live Freely in a just and civil society based on faith & values, That Private Property and my hard earned labor is just that, to share with my Family, and If I choose to be benevolent/contribute to my community I do it in a manner as I see fit with it, I choose, not forced, noting that I have an earnest obligation to improve my society as best I can, and am capable within reason.

Works great in theory and there is really nothing that you’ve said that can be seen as objectionable. Still, we don’t live in 1790’s. That was a time when we were very much disconnected from each other by geography and the technology of the time. Today we are much more interconnected which naturally gives rise to centralization.


I agree with the Declaration of Independence, That they are GOD given natural rights, not rights that any ruler or Government can take away/confiscate, contrary to the current crop & past of both Liberal and Establishment Republicans Politicians, who adhere and forward/promote the thought of being subordinate to an all encompassing ubiquitous top down all powerful central Gov`t where they dictate and manipulate individuals en masse for their own goals & benefits, that mindset leads to {inequality} coercion with seemingly benevolent ends which is a ruse, it threatens individual liberty/freedom and civil society,

Now you are just making stuff up and/or exaggerating modern government to an absurd extreme. That would be like me saying all Southern Conservatives are racists and don’t want their tax money to go to minorities. Sure some are, but it is incorrect to paint all Southern conservatives the same way.


, it threatens individual liberty/freedom and civil society, because it leads to a stamping out, snuffing of Individual Liberty, self reliance, ambition, accountability, and in Gov`t Forum, tyranny, a dependent nanny state.

This part is true. Government is like a fire. Too small and it is ineffective, too big and it consumes everything. But just right and you stay toasty warm. The argument is not if we should have a fire, but how big should it be. (to make up a poor analogy)


I oppose the Progressive taxation of Americans,
Just read Benjamin Franklin’s autobiography. He was definitely for it.

Christ seems very liberal in his views on most issues.
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


Global Warming
More accurately Global Climate Change. It has a lot to do with pollution we (as humans) put in the air. The scientific community has generated a lot of data on it. For some reason, some people who typically identify themselves as conservative just don’t want to believe it for political reasons it seems.

When I use to listen to talk radio way back in the day I heard a great line from Bill O'Reilly that always stuck with me. He said basically, “Even if man isn’t the cause of global Warning, why wouldn’t we have the cleanest planet possible.”


{religion of the left}
Many on the left joyfully serve the Lord and see their roles as good stewards of the earth as mandated from God. Many on the right have the exact same views.
The Bible is full of examples where God states that he values all his creations and calls on us, created in his image, to watch over it, protect it, and learn from it.

The earth is the LORD's, and the fullness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.2For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods. PSALM 24:1

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of God," Matthew 10:29.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till and keep it," Genesis 2:15.

Lev. 25:23-24. The land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants.
Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.

Jer. 2:7. I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce. But
you came and defiled my land and you made my inheritance detestable.



, Environmental regulations,

Would you like fries with your DDT? I’ll pass.



Nationalized Healthcare,

Even though I am very much against National Healthcare because I’m a Darwinist and think that we need to allow people who make bad choices to die. Most people don’t share my view and we continue to shell out billions of tax payer dollars on emergency care (because we are nice that way) for people who have had a life of making bad decisions. National health care is the most effective way to do that. And although Palin is an idiot, her idea of Death Panels is warranted. Somebody needs to tell people that they need to die. Today I am giving Chemo to an elderly man, who has severe dementia, is bed bound and fed through a PEG tube $25K worth of drugs. Why? Because the family wants it. And when he Codes, and he will, I may be called to break his chest with compressions before he dies. I’ve seen that bird sternum andI’ve cracked enough sternums too know what will happen. Welcome to the trenches of Healthcare.

/rant


Cap & Trade, I don`t believe n our Current Immigration Policy which is in part dictated/influenced by Foreign Gov`t`s, nor a Multi culturalism/balkanization of America taking away from being an AMERICAN an assimilation into being an American, Equal, not separate! coming here legally. None of these IMO promote or foster Individual Freedom, a Civil Society.
So someone who comes here legally doesn’t have the right to keep their own customs? That is an interesting position for someone who promotes individual liberties. I would gues that you didn’t mean that literally.

We probably do agree that English should be the official language in all matters public (like education should be in English) But what a person does in their own home, or how they want to dress, or what language they want to use in their store is their own business. IMO


Liberalism is the BEDROCK of American Society, the DIGNITY of the Individual to Live Freely, and with it, the Opportunity for anyone, from all walks of Life, natural born or legal immigrant to take advantage of a concept that no nation has ever offered in such abundance

Fixed  j/k but this view is not unique to conservatism.


Sorry Tom, I didn't scroll up to check your name, it wasn't intended to belittle you. You are entirely free to post exactly what you want whenever you want it, that's the beauty of a free country. And I can choose to read it or not, which is also the beauty of a free country. I know people's religions are very important to them, and many are very touchy about the subject, and I don't think it's good manners to offend them on this subject. Even when they claim to have a thick skin ;)

Reasonable minds can disagree. I think that for us to continue to be an “Exceptional Nation” we need to start treating those we disagree with more respect. (Edit: for clarity, that statement is not aimed at anybody but is a generalized statement). So often we fight so fiercely on what we disagree that we can’t even agree with the opposing side on what we do agree on.

NorwichGrad
06-19-2014, 08:34 AM
Reasonable minds can disagree. I think that for us to continue to be an “Exceptional Nation” we need to start treating those we disagree with more respect. So often we fight so fiercely on what we disagree that we can’t even agree with the opposing side on what we do agree on.
BAM!! Well said!

You and I have some differences in our points-of-view. You are an Atheist, I am a Christian. You “seem” to lean on the left, I “seem” to lean on the right.. This is all good.. I got no problem with others who view things differently than I do. And to your point from a previous post, it’s meaningful to understand why others believe what they believe. I’m all for that. And more importantly, giving respect to others regardless of their view is crucial if we are going to have civil discussions (just as long as they don’t strap C4 on their bodies and kill innocent people).

This is just a general statement and is not directed at anyone in particular. The problem is that we, as individuals, tend to quickly put others in categorical buckets if they say something we don’t like.. For example, you being an Atheist, you are quickly labeled a liberal, right? But I know for a fact that there are other Atheists members here who tend to lean on conservatism. And there are also some Christians out there who voted for Obama..

Why is this, one may ask. The answer is simple. ALL politicians operate on fear and hatred. One side wants us to hate and fear the others. Lies and more lies are the way they want to control the masses.

The middle class is shrinking. In fact, it has shrunk significantly to a dangerous level. But on a more positive note, people in this group have a lot more in common than they’d like to admit. Our commonalities must be strengthened if we expect to save ourselves and our country.

We are all pissed off. And rightfully so.. We like to throw darts at others to place blame. Throwing darts is okay, as long as we throw the darts at the right target.. And unfortunately most of the time, we throw the darts at the wrong target.

So let’s set aside labels and buckets for the time being. Forget the D’s and the R’s. Forget the labels liberal and conservative.. Forget spiritual and religious beliefs for the time being. Let’s look at the following facts:

a) Government is out of control. Both democrats and republicans do not care about the American People.

“Government instituted among men…. by the consent of the governed…” or something like that.. Government is supposed to be an unbiased umpire. Like in sports. Politicians are supposed to be FAIR referees. You ever played ‘Knock the King of the Hill’ as a kid? Everybody who plays that game has the right to run up the hill and knock the king off. The fastest and most athletic kid will win.. The problem with having a BIASED government, is that the referee has made special deal with the existing king. The referee has placed 100-lb weights on the back of each participant, making it difficult to run up that hill.

b) The rich are getting richer. The poor getting poorer. The middle class is getting squeezed by both sides.

Why is that?

Let’s look one extreme of the bell curve.

If you look at the top 1% wealthy Americans, the last names have been consistent for the past 100 years. Rockefeller, DuPoint, Rothchild, etc..

In a typical business, the grandfather worked very hard to build a successful business. The father then tries to follow the grandfather’s footsteps to maintain that business. And then the sons usually phuck things up because they have no idea how the business was built, so they had no appreciation for the values that made the business to begin with. And the business goes belly up.

I REFUSE to believe that the Rockefellers, DuPonts and Rotchchilds 5th generation children were excellent leaders, that they were able to maintain their wealth.. No way!! They maintain their wealth because they made special deals with the government. (See point A).


Now let’s take a look at the other side of the bell curve.. The “Poor”.. (Nothing against the legitimate poor people. I was once a poor immigrant.)

The poor should have just as much right to get themselves out of poverty.. There are lots of poor people in America who work hard to climb their way out. God Bless them.. Let’s support them by helping them help themselves. Let’s give them HAND UP, BUT NOT HAND OUT!!!

However, there are also “poor” people who want to stay there because they are already mooching off the middle class. They are not really poor, they are more like leeches.



So in the middle of the bell curve is us.. And this is why we are screwed. We are paying the elite 1% rich maintain their wealth, and we are also paying for the leeches who are too lazy to do the right thing..


These three groups are the ones the rest of us should throw our darts at:

a) The government who forgot their function.
b) The super elite who made special deals with the government.
c) The leeches who feed off the back of the hardworking Americans.

So what are we gonna do? What can we do?

We want to change things for the better (‘better’ by our own definition). But the problem is that we are unwilling to change ourselves. If we want to lead others, we must first lead ourselves by becoming better people. Change must come from grassroots.

I want to go full circle and go back to the Founding Fathers. They held themselves to high standards. They were imperfect like all of us. But they were also men of great courage, integrity, honor and character.

Change is inevitable. In fact, change is the only constant. BUT, there are some things that must never, ever, ever change. .And those are courage, integrity, honor, and character. These are hallmarks of great leaders. Everything rises and falls on leadership. If we expect to make a positive difference, then we must start with ourselves.

JRT6
06-24-2014, 09:14 AM
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g284/JRT6/10470928_10152208176746188_1916620311770094475_n_z psb359d886.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/JRT6/media/10470928_10152208176746188_1916620311770094475_n_z psb359d886.jpg.html)

ChazWood
06-24-2014, 10:38 AM
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g284/JRT6/10470928_10152208176746188_1916620311770094475_n_z psb359d886.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/JRT6/media/10470928_10152208176746188_1916620311770094475_n_z psb359d886.jpg.html)
That's why each and every human being comes equipped with its own independently functioning brain unit.

daPhats
06-24-2014, 10:42 AM
That's why each and every human being comes equipped with its own independently functioning brain unit.

It's a shame that so few actually use it.

http://time.com/7809/1-in-4-americans-thinks-sun-orbits-earth/

ChazWood
06-24-2014, 10:53 AM
It's a shame that so few actually use it.

http://time.com/7809/1-in-4-americans-thinks-sun-orbits-earth/
Well, that's the awesome thing about the brain; those of the 1-in-4 who read Time's feature now know that the Earth orbits the Sun. :)

NorwichGrad
06-24-2014, 02:22 PM
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g284/JRT6/10470928_10152208176746188_1916620311770094475_n_z psb359d886.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/JRT6/media/10470928_10152208176746188_1916620311770094475_n_z psb359d886.jpg.html)

I agree..

That is why when I read history books, I also study the men who wrote them..

JOHN GARGANI
06-25-2014, 02:16 AM
It`s Tom, or Tommy Or Thomas or Thomashenry LOL not OP :], and being offended, thin skinned, overly sensitive, in need of therapy {although some may suggest strongly} hurt or feel bad Don`t worry, Honestly aside from my so called Proselytizing, among many other traits, some may call rude, Bloviating, insightful, honest, even Loudmouth, Azz, & some may throw in the word hole to finish also, many others I am certain, however I am a pretty open minded and reasonable Guy & like to converse on an array of subjects

too bad insightful commentary and knowledge of the subject of BODYBUILDING is not on your list.....

but then again, this IS the "off-topics" or rather on here, MISC portion of the over35....so I will bow out

frozensparky
06-25-2014, 06:45 AM
too bad insightful commentary and knowledge of the subject of BODYBUILDING is not on your list.....

but then again, this IS the "off-topics" or rather on here, MISC portion of the over35....so I will bow out

Bowing out would have been just not posting it in the first place.

Do we really need one more guy to tell people to read Emma Leigh's stickies, or to lose fat eat in a deficit. Is it that important to you that one more guy puts a vid up in the squat thread or posts a selfie in "this week in the O35".

Although I don't agree with all that Thomas says or other members of the O35, I do appreciate having other things to read about. It seems the go to for some of the hardcore "lifters" on this site is the good old "why don't you talk about lifting". I love lifting, I've competed, I still keep striving to be better at it. But I don't feel the need to talk about it and repeat the same stuff every day.

Brackneyc
06-25-2014, 07:47 AM
If you woke up today, and you didn't live in the best place for "you," and you stay there, that is YOUR problem. Most people do believe they live in the best nation (whatever place it is). What makes folks feel bad is when someone claims it to be that. People feel bad about feeling good.

Oh well.

thomashenry
06-25-2014, 10:32 AM
too bad insightful commentary and knowledge of the subject of BODYBUILDING is not on your list.....

but then again, this IS the "off-topics" or rather on here, MISC portion of the over35....so I will bow out


Well Thank you for the disparaging off handed comment, guess you have me all figured out, never read about me playing Hockey for 13 years of my life, or that I go & have gone to the gym still for 4-6 days per week for the last 10 Years and even though I smoke a pack of Marlboro Reds per day, I don`t Drink whatsoever or do drugs, though I Love Good Cigars.

I can get on a stairmaster and knock out 45 Minutes RIGHT NOW, & every day I am in the Gym, {that's considered cardio FYI}, or that I have a Son who is a successful gym owner and bodybuilding competitor also, {Wonder where that came from ?} a Daughter in Law who has entered 7 Bodybuilding Contests won 5 and came in 2nd twice, not too mention has played womens Professional REAL football and trains many of the Detroit Red wings and Detroit Lions. Her & my Son are Personal Certified Trainers, {Guess who their # 1 Client is ? Yup, Muah} I actually have even Been on a Ketogenic Diet that my son designed, been @ 10% Bodyfat @ one Time, employ Isometric & range of Motion exercise in my weekly routines, with excellent form, @ 53 Yrs Old, after a 15 Minute Warm Up of Stretching, even employ TRX and Kettle in my weekly routine.

Perhaps I don't share enough in regards to my Gym exploits and prowess :}, I guess, but I read voraciously and learn & even employ or attempt certain things in my Routines that may work for me, my routines are not that special or warrant me writing about, they are just for me and I would gladly share if anyone asked or I thought Necessary, however for just you, I will let you in on a little secret, the last week I made a bet with Son & Daughter in law, they are competing in a contest next June, and with them I am as well, and told them , if I beat them, They pay for a Tattoo & I WILL QUIT SMOKING, SO by this time Next Yr I hope to share my Journey with them {it will be an 11 Month Journey for a now 53 Yr old to Compete} promise you can be one of the 1st to read , Oh one last thing, I don`t share about many things for whatever reason, from day trading to my wife and her daily routine, just the way it is

ArchAngel'73
06-25-2014, 12:25 PM
Perhaps I don't share enough in regards to my Gym exploits and prowess :},

You should.-srs

IMO the one area where neither race nor creed has any baring is the gym floor, the Great Equalizer.

What you tend to post causes derision and strife amongst the populace (politics and religion) and is counter productive to unity of the group.

I tend to stay away from arguments in threads like this, instead, choosing to let my actions and progress in the gym hi-lite my Gifts and in no uncertain circumstance let others know I would be nothing without HIM empowering me.

To quote;
"Build it and they will come.";)

My bet is you would attract more to the light side if you posted more of your Gifts in the gym.
You have suffered great loss within your family, and yet you keep going to the gym, a commendable endeavour to say the least...especially to the neophyte lifter who might run under similar conditions.

Start a journal Thomas.
You will catch more flies with honey than you will from the pulpit or demonstration line.
This I know
for I lived it so.

JediRN
06-25-2014, 04:23 PM
too bad insightful commentary and knowledge of the subject of BODYBUILDING is not on your list.....

but then again, this IS the "off-topics" or rather on here, MISC portion of the over35....so I will bow out

Pay attention kids... This is how you troll. Truly exceptional.

JOHN GARGANI
06-28-2014, 05:41 AM
Pay attention kids... This is how you troll. Truly exceptional.

moi? a troll...what a laugh..I won't even grace your comment.....



What you tend to post causes derision and strife amongst the populace (politics and religion) and is counter productive to unity of the group.

thank you, Angel......

When guys like Thomas Henry post their "views" on those topics, they are living cariactures....as are all by far left and far right advocates....we've heard it all, too many times....it is redundant, yet, as Angel said, divisive....

which is why on MY forum, discussions of Religion and Politics is not allowed.....it goes nowhere....fast......

you could talk about a certain way of training or dieting and someone might actually say: "hey, that sounds good, I am going to try it".....

but you are NEVER EVER going to change someone's mind when it comes to Politics and Religion.....