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IDannee
05-09-2014, 08:39 AM
Hey all

I started bulking with 17%bf which I regret now I've gained some muscle and some bodyfat,

I was 142 when is started now I'm around 170 with 20%bf in 5 months I told myself if I ever get to 20% I'm cutting so my question is......

How many calories should I drop to burn fat but maintain as much muscle as possible to maintain I need Around 2400 calories, I'm 5ft11

I have been pondering weather to cut or continue my bulk but I can't help but hate the flab I have now although all my friends and people on here tell me keep Bulking.

Any help would be helpful.

lee__d
05-09-2014, 08:43 AM
I would also tell you to keep bulking, but if you must cut, just drop 500 calories and see what happens in two weeks. Then adjust from there.

VmissileX
05-09-2014, 08:44 AM
you should be bulking.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 08:46 AM
I would also tell you to keep bulking, but if you must cut, just drop 500 calories and see what happens in two weeks. Then adjust from there.

I myself would rather continue my bulk i have lowered my intake to 2650, I just hate how my stomach looks now,

bradandblake
05-09-2014, 08:50 AM
I myself would rather continue my bulk i have lowered my intake to 2650, I just hate how my stomach looks now,

Recomp. Clean bulk and add more cardio. By the looks of your physique, you are still in the beginning stages. This leaves room for plenty of room for mass gain/fat loss.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 08:58 AM
Recomp. Clean bulk and add more cardio. By the looks of your physique, you are still in the beginning stages. This leaves room for plenty of room for mass gain/fat loss.

I'm in my first month of a full body workout my weights gone up but my body weight has stayed the same which I was pleased with,

If possible I could do with some suggestions I have been eating 3 portions of 75g brown rice a day and tbh I'm getting sick of it now I can handle 2 just bored of the third so I was hoping to change it up,

Without it Im down by 265 calories 55 carbs and 5 protein, I'd like to fill up with some fats as mine are a little low at the moment and the rest used towards carbs.

bradandblake
05-09-2014, 09:19 AM
I'm in my first month of a full body workout my weights gone up but my body weight has stayed the same which I was pleased with,

If possible I could do with some suggestions I have been eating 3 portions of 75g brown rice a day and tbh I'm getting sick of it now I can handle 2 just bored of the third so I was hoping to change it up,

Without it Im down by 265 calories 55 carbs and 5 protein, I'd like to fill up with some fats as mine are a little low at the moment and the rest used towards carbs.

Pistachios, granola's, mixed veggies, mixed fruit, beans...

I go all over the place when I bulk. Its hard enough stuffing the food. It would really suck eating the same things all the time.

Today

Breakfast
Turkey sausages
trail mix

lunch
pasta alfredo with broccoli
grilled chicken
baked beans

dinner (maybe)
pork chops
rice
veggie

snacks
peanut butter
cereal/milk
mixed fruit
almonds

2X protein shakes

I'l hit about 3600 calories today.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 09:27 AM
Pistachios, granola's, mixed veggies, mixed fruit, beans...

I go all over the place when I bulk. Its hard enough stuffing the food. It would really suck eating the same things all the time.

Today

Breakfast
Turkey sausages
trail mix

lunch
pasta alfredo with broccoli
grilled chicken
baked beans

dinner (maybe)
pork chops
rice
veggie

snacks
peanut butter
cereal/milk
mixed fruit
almonds

2X protein shakes

I'l hit about 3600 calories today.

I'd love that kind of bulk I eat the same stuff everyday and yeah I'm sick of it now but I know I'm hitting every macro and worried about adding more bodyfat,

I'm a chef so all day I'm cooking currys spag bowls burgers pies all this delicious food yet I'm to afraid I'll be eating to much or not enough

bradandblake
05-09-2014, 09:30 AM
I'd love that kind of bulk I eat the same stuff everyday and yeah I'm sick of it now but I know I'm hitting every macro and worried about adding more bodyfat,

I'm a chef so all day I'm cooking currys spag bowls burgers pies all this delicious food yet I'm to afraid I'll be eating to much or not enough

As long as you are hitting your minimum protein/fat recommendations from the stickies at the top of the nutrition forum, working out just as hard, and you are staying at a low surplus, maybe 100-200 calories a day, you'll recomp without a problem...at least for a while.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 09:45 AM
As long as you are hitting your minimum protein/fat recommendations from the stickies at the top of the nutrition forum, working out just as hard, and you are staying at a low surplus, maybe 100-200 calories a day, you'll recomp without a problem...at least for a while.

Which stickie would I find out my minimums? I'm using IIFYM at the moment I'm following the macros that gave me,

Say I'm bulking at 2600 I lowered by 265 because of the rice I'm losing 55g grams of carbs and 5g protein could I eat something at work like a little bit if curry sauce and some beans on my rice and meat to fill up those calories regardless of the carbs I've lost.

WonderPug
05-09-2014, 09:50 AM
Which stickie would I find out my minimums? I'm using IIFYM at the moment I'm following the macros that gave me, .
COMPOSING A RATIONAL DIET

Advice on diet and nutrition is often based on myths and, even more so, on the marketing message of supplement companies and self-proclaimed diet gurus with agendas contrary to your interests. Please don't allow yourself, your health, your fitness goals or your wallet to be compromised by the prevalent misinformation. Learn the basics of nutrition and start engaging in healthy, rational dietary habits that can last a lifetime.

The first step is to discard biased advice on nutrition and diet, and, in its place, embrace simple logic:



Compose a diet that ensures micronutrient and macronutrient sufficiency, derived predominantly from whole and minimally processed foods if possible, with remaining caloric intake being largely discretionary within the bounds of common sense.




Caloric Intake

Energy balance is the primary dietary driver of body weight and it also impacts body composition. A chronic surplus of calories will result in increased body weight and a chronic deficit of calories will result in a loss of body weight.

In other words, in order to gain about one pound of tissue weight (as opposed to transient flux in water weight), you need to consume a total of about 3,500 calories more than you expend. And to lose about one pound of tissue weight, you have to do the opposite -- consume about 3,500 calories less than you expend.

Thus, the first step in constructing any rational diet is to get a sense of how many calories per day, on average, you should consume in order to progress towards your goals.

The average number of calories you expend per day -- called total daily energy expenditure (TDEE) -- is a function of your basal metabolic rate (BMR) and your average weekly activity level.

To estimate your BMR, it's important to have a sense of how much lean body mass (LBM) you carry. If you're not sure, post a photo or two and we can estimate your percentage body fat and, from this number and your total body weight, it's easy to estimate LBM by using the following formula:



LBM = body weight * (1 - percentage body fat)


To estimate BMR, use the the Katch-McArdle formula:



BMR = 370 + (9.8 * LBM in pounds)
or
BMR = 370 + (21.6 * LBM in kg)


The next step is to estimate average weekly activity using the following guidelines to calculate an activity factor (AF):




• 1.1 - 1.2 = Sedentary (desk job, and little formal exercise, this will be most of you students)

• 1.3 - 1.4 = Lightly Active (light daily activity and light exercise 1-3 days a week)

• 1.5 - 1.6 = Moderately Active (moderately daily Activity & moderate exercise 3-5 days a week)

• 1.7 - 1.8 = Very Active (physically demanding lifestyle & hard exercise 6-7 days a week)

• 1.9 - 2.2 = Extremely Active (athletes in endurance training or very hard physical job)




To estimate TDEE (the calories at which you will neither gain nor lose tissue weight), use the following formula:



TDEE = BMR * AF


Now that you've estimated your TDEE, it's important to refine that estimate empirically. To do so, consume an average amount of calories equal to estimated TDEE for two weeks, monitoring weight change. The results will confirm your actual TDEE.

Once you know your actually TDEE, set your caloric intake to match your goals as follows:



To maintain weight, consume an amount of calories equal to TDEE.
To lose weight, consume 10% to 20% less than TDEE.
To gain weight, consume 10% 20% more than TDEE.


Monitor weight change via the scale and also body composition via the mirror and how clothing fits, making adjustments as needed biweekly.


Macronutrient Intake

Ensure that your intake of macronutrients meets sufficiency (as defined below), with remaining macronutrient composition of the diet being largely a function of personal preference.

Ideally, ensure macronutrient sufficiency predominantly or, ideally, entirely from whole and minimally processed foods.



Protein: ~0.6 to ~0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the highest amount justified by research. (http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/)

Fat: ~0.45 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the lowest amount implied by clinical observation.

Remaining caloric budget: whatever mix of macronutrients you prefer -- as implied by research. (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748)



Micronutrient Intake

Take care and use good judgement in food selection and portioning to ensure that micronutrient sufficiency is reached without excessive intake from dietary sources and/or supplements.

As with macronutrient sufficiency, one should ensure micronutrient sufficiency predominantly or, ideally, entirely from whole and minimally processed foods.

To get a good sense of recommended intake of vitamins and minerals, please review this (http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/dietary-guidance/dietary-reference-intakes/dri-tables) USDA guidelines webpage.

You'll find the following information particularly helpful:




Intakes: Recommended Intakes for Individuals (http://www.iom.edu/Activities/Nutrition/SummaryDRIs/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Nutrition/DRIs/5_Summary%20Table%20Tables%201-4.pdf)

RDA and Adequate Intake for Vitamins and Elements (http://iom.edu/Activities/Nutrition/SummaryDRIs/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Nutrition/DRIs/RDA%20and%20AIs_Vitamin%20and%20Elements.pdf)

Upper Limit for Vitamins and Elements (http://iom.edu/Activities/Nutrition/SummaryDRIs/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Nutrition/DRIs/ULs%20for%20Vitamins%20and%20Elements.pdf)

Electrolytes and Water (http://www.iom.edu/Global/News%20Announcements/~/media/442A08B899F44DF9AAD083D86164C75B.ashx)




Meal Timing, Composition & Frequency

The number of meals you consume, the timing of those meals and the macro/micronutrient composition of each meal is largely a function of personal preference.

While it might be "optimal" to consume more than one meal per day and less than 5 meals per day, the simple truth is that any difference that directly results from such fine tuning is likely too small to notice even after years of training.

Thus, base your meal timing, composition and frequency on your subjective preference such as to optimize your sense of energy, performance, satiety, palatability, convenience, social/business life and sustainability.

Do not hesitate to very all three factors from day to day as circumstance dictates. In other words, do not become a slave to routine, with inflexibility compromising your quality of life.


Pre & Post Workout Nutrition

What (if anything) you consume before and after your workout does not play a significant direct role in the outcome of your diet, beyond personal preference.

Why? Because what matters in terms of direct impact on outcomes is total daily intake of all nutrients.

Thus, you should optimize based on how you respond to training in a fed or fasted state, and based on your hungry after exercise. In other words, use common sense.


Supplements

Supplements are just that, products that are intended to supplement deficiencies in your diet. If your diet is properly composed then there's no need or unique benefit to using supplements.

If your diet isn't properly composed and, thus, you have deficiencies, try to fix your diet to cure such deficiencies though the consumption of whole and minimally processed foods. If you can't fix your diet, then use the lowest dose supplement(a) needed to cure any remaining deficiencies.

bradandblake
05-09-2014, 09:55 AM
Which stickie would I find out my minimums? I'm using IIFYM at the moment I'm following the macros that gave me,

Say I'm bulking at 2600 I lowered by 265 because of the rice I'm losing 55g grams of carbs and 5g protein could I eat something at work like a little bit if curry sauce and some beans on my rice and meat to fill up those calories regardless of the carbs I've lost.

Above post answers it completely. There is no carb max/minimum really. Just get the minimums at least (fat/protein) and eat whatever else you want, whenever, daily.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 10:06 AM
Above post answers it completely. There is no carb max/minimum really. Just get the minimums at least (fat/protein) and eat whatever else you want, whenever, daily.

I bloat like a balloon on very little carbs yet I've been reading and been told you need high carb diet to bulk,

So if I keep my protein hit at around 170 my fats around 70 and my carbs at 292 ( rice taken of ) I can then eat whatever I like within reason for the remaining 250 calories hit the gym hard and grow?

bradandblake
05-09-2014, 10:11 AM
I bloat like a balloon on very little carbs yet I've been reading and been told you need high carb diet to bulk,

So if I keep my protein hit at around 170 my fats around 70 and my carbs at 292 ( rice taken of ) I can then eat whatever I like within reason for the remaining 250 calories hit the gym hard and grow?

Yep!

I bloat too. You get used to it. Bolded is important. The rest is up to your personal desires. I agree more carbs is better for energy and more intense workouts/hypertrophy. I hit about 400 carbs a day. Any more than that for me personally, I begin to get a bit loopy.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 10:20 AM
Yep!

I bloat too. You get used to it. Bolded is important. The rest is up to your personal desires. I agree more carbs is better for energy and more intense workouts/hypertrophy. I hit about 400 carbs a day. Any more than that for me personally, I begin to get a bit loopy.


Wonderful I'll keep my carbs at 300 then!! Thank you for the help I know this question is asked a lot, just so many answers to it,

I'll track my progress for a month and see how I look and feel :)

tomcufc
05-09-2014, 11:12 AM
I've started my first cut, I'm about 4 months into it but I've completely stalled recently. All the fat has dropped from my back and arms, but the gut just won't budge. Dropped from 2000 cals to 1700 cals for this week and still no progress. Stuck around the 140lb mark and can't drop below.

General info for if anyone can help;

Try to get as much protein as possible, I plan 2 out of my 3 meals a day because still live at home so parents decide dinner.
30 minutes cardio at least 3 times a week, burn 300 calories each session (as it says on machine)
Cardio is walking at 3.0-3.2 mph on a 13% incline
Knee is not the best so actual running can be either a success or a potential danger

Any help?

Rebinho
05-09-2014, 11:17 AM
I have always meant, that if you come over 22% bodyfat, thats should be where you should cut.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 11:22 AM
I have always meant, that if you come over 22% bodyfat, thats should be where you should cut.

I said 20% for myself just because it's a round number! I'm going to keep tracking my stats over the next few months whilst lowering my intake and changing to a full body I have filled out more, I'm just hoping that 200 calories surplus is enough for a successful lean bulk.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 11:26 AM
I've started my first cut, I'm about 4 months into it but I've completely stalled recently. All the fat has dropped from my back and arms, but the gut just won't budge. Dropped from 2000 cals to 1700 cals for this week and still no progress. Stuck around the 140lb mark and can't drop below.

General info for if anyone can help;


Try to get as much protein as possible, I plan 2 out of my 3 meals a day because still live at home so parents decide dinner.
30 minutes cardio at least 3 times a week, burn 300 calories each session (as it says on machine)
Cardio is walking at 3.0-3.2 mph on a 13% incline
Knee is not the best so actual running can be either a success or a potential danger

Any help?


For future references what would you suggest for a cut just so I know when the time comes...

Obviously lower calories high protein lots of veg etc, as for weight lifting Ill more then likely stick with full body just so I know if my strength is lowering, reps, sets etc......

As for cardio is it needed to cut? Been reading a little bit and many people have said full body is more then enough.

tomcufc
05-09-2014, 11:57 AM
For future references what would you suggest for a cut just so I know when the time comes...

Obviously lower calories high protein lots of veg etc, as for weight lifting Ill more then likely stick with full body just so I know if my strength is lowering, reps, sets etc......

As for cardio is it needed to cut? Been reading a little bit and many people have said full body is more then enough.

What worked for me is basically do the exact same routine you had been doing at first then lower calories so you're 500 under maintenance. If I were you I would add the cardio in because then more calories burned=more ingested without weight gain. The first week will really **** you up, like you'll be hungry and feel weak but keep going through that and it gets better. If you get say a month in and your bench decreases (which it did for me) switch to a strength style of training for that movement. I started pyramid sets with my bench press to regain strength with no alteration to diet and it increased to above what it was before. If you cut smart then your strength should never really decrease by vast amounts and when it does that's when you know to slow it down in my opinion. Now I do my first exercise as a pyramid set down to 2 reps then back up for 3 sets of 4s. The second exercise is around the 6-8 range and the rest fall into the classic 8-12 rep ranges.

In short, keep your training how it is now since that's probably been what works for you and cut slow to maintain all the good stuff.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 12:25 PM
What worked for me is basically do the exact same routine you had been doing at first then lower calories so you're 500 under maintenance. If I were you I would add the cardio in because then more calories burned=more ingested without weight gain. The first week will really **** you up, like you'll be hungry and feel weak but keep going through that and it gets better. If you get say a month in and your bench decreases (which it did for me) switch to a strength style of training for that movement. I started pyramid sets with my bench press to regain strength with no alteration to diet and it increased to above what it was before. If you cut smart then your strength should never really decrease by vast amounts and when it does that's when you know to slow it down in my opinion. Now I do my first exercise as a pyramid set down to 2 reps then back up for 3 sets of 4s. The second exercise is around the 6-8 range and the rest fall into the classic 8-12 rep ranges.

In short, keep your training how it is now since that's probably been what works for you and cut slow to maintain all the good stuff.


Cheers! I was going to keep it the same just nice to hear others views!

tomcufc
05-09-2014, 12:28 PM
Cheers! I was going to keep it the same just nice to hear others views!

Seriously though, don't go full body workout unless it really isn't working for you continuing as normal. Maybe a 4 day split then 1 day full body or a 5 day split 1 day full body if you really want to do it

WonderPug
05-09-2014, 12:31 PM
Seriously though, don't go full body workout unless it really isn't working for you continuing as normal. Maybe a 4 day split then 1 day full body or a 5 day split 1 day full body if you really want to do itUgh.

A proven 5x5 program actually results in reasonable progression, unlike the silly splits.

tomcufc
05-09-2014, 12:38 PM
Ugh.

A proven 5x5 program actually results in reasonable progression, unlike the silly splits.

I'm not knocking the full body workout, I'm just saying what's worked for me. Just seems a bit risky completely changing everything on your first time dieting imo

WonderPug
05-09-2014, 12:43 PM
I'm not knocking the full body workout, I'm just saying what's worked for me. Just seems a bit risky completely changing everything on your first time dieting imoThe difference is in how much progress you could have made if you used a proper lifting routine.

IDannee
05-09-2014, 12:52 PM
Seriously though, don't go full body workout unless it really isn't working for you continuing as normal. Maybe a 4 day split then 1 day full body or a 5 day split 1 day full body if you really want to do it

Yeah I Tried a 4 day split I didn't enjoy it or gain much from it, once swapping to a full body I've seen so much progress and I enjoy it so a full body is the route I'd take

HealingHands8
05-09-2014, 12:59 PM
Seriously though, don't go full body workout unless it really isn't working for you continuing as normal. Maybe a 4 day split then 1 day full body or a 5 day split 1 day full body if you really want to do it


I'm not knocking the full body workout, I'm just saying what's worked for me. Just seems a bit risky completely changing everything on your first time dieting imo

This:


The difference is in how much progress you could have made if you used a proper lifting routine.

All routines will 'work', but that doesn't mean the progress you made couldn't have been better.

tomcufc
05-09-2014, 01:41 PM
This:



All routines will 'work', but that doesn't mean the progress you made couldn't have been better.

When I finish this cut and start my next bulk I'll give the full body routine a try and see how it goes, personally I also enjoy the typical 4 day/5 day split simply because I feel like I've gave each muscle a good stimulus but the full body makes sense. Is it because you're more regularly stimulating protein synthesis into the muscles? That's a bit of guess but at the same time I'd think a full hour say on arms would have as big of an impact rather than like 20 minutes focused on it 3 times per week?

If any of you have studies or research you could send I'd like to see them, I know I'm not right about everything

IDannee
05-10-2014, 10:11 AM
When I finish this cut and start my next bulk I'll give the full body routine a try and see how it goes, personally I also enjoy the typical 4 day/5 day split simply because I feel like I've gave each muscle a good stimulus but the full body makes sense. Is it because you're more regularly stimulating protein synthesis into the muscles? That's a bit of guess but at the same time I'd think a full hour say on arms would have as big of an impact rather than like 20 minutes focused on it 3 times per week?

If any of you have studies or research you could send I'd like to see them, I know I'm not right about everything


I saw an article that suggested with 3 day full body's the protein synthesis is jumping up and down between workouts thus causing your body to absorb more and grow,
Where as a 4 day split it's on the same level most of the week so it isn't effected as much.

I don't know the truth about this just trying to answer your question