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1beb
04-07-2014, 01:30 PM
Hello Nutrition peeps,

I'm extremely new to this, so be gentle. I'm following the 12 Week Lean Body workout plan, and by following - I mean my fat ass is in the gym working hard 7 days a week. But I have a few questions about nutrition:

Question 1:

I'm using myfitnesspal to track my intake and measuring my food for certainty. I don't feel hungry, but it recommends a very low calorie intake and I wonder if I'm not forcing my body into starvation mode. Given the following situation, what would you recommend as a overall daily calorie intake?

Gender: Male
Age: 32 Years Old
Height: 6ft
BF % : 32.3%
Weight: 256.5lbs
Activity level: Sedentary with the exception of workouts (7 days a week, 5 lifting days, minutes of cardio every day, 25 elliptical, 15 cycling to-from the gym)

Question 2:

My overall goal is to "transform" but I understand from reading that these two processes do not necessarily align well with each other. My primary goal is weight loss. I've read a number of articles on bodybuilding.com and elsewhere that suggest different ratios for different purposes. Understanding my goal, what macro targets would you recommend, in terms of %Carb/%Protein/%Fat? '


Thanks in advance!

AutumnHB
04-07-2014, 01:36 PM
Hello Nutrition peeps,

I'm extremely new to this, so be gentle. I'm following the 12 Week Lean Body workout plan, and by following - I mean my fat ass is in the gym working hard 7 days a week. But I have a few questions about nutrition:

Question 1:

I'm using myfitnesspal to track my intake and measuring my food for certainty. I don't feel hungry, but it recommends a very low calorie intake and I wonder if I'm not forcing my body into starvation mode. Given the following situation, what would you recommend as a overall daily calorie intake?

Gender: Male
Age: 32 Years Old
Height: 6ft
BF % : 32.3%
Weight: 256.5lbs
Activity level: Sedentary with the exception of workouts (7 days a week, 5 lifting days, minutes of cardio every day, 25 elliptical, 15 cycling to-from the gym)

Question 2:

My overall goal is to "transform" but I understand from reading that these two processes do not necessarily align well with each other. My primary goal is weight loss. I've read a number of articles on bodybuilding.com and elsewhere that suggest different ratios for different purposes. Understanding my goal, what macro targets would you recommend, in terms of %Carb/%Protein/%Fat? '


Thanks in advance!

how many calories is it recommending? At 32% bf I wouldn't be worried about "starvation mode".
macronutrient ratios don't matter, should go like 1.25g protein/lb bodyweight.
go to the nutrition section and check out Emma leigh's sticky, that will have all the info you need.
here's the link: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=156380183

Mncdk
04-07-2014, 01:46 PM
1.25 g/protein is way overkill.

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

AutumnHB
04-07-2014, 02:13 PM
1.25 g/protein is way overkill.

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

matter of opinion. That was just an example #, though.

Mncdk
04-07-2014, 10:42 PM
matter of opinion. That was just an example #, though.
My link;
"There hasn’t been any recorded advantage of consuming more than 0.64g/lb. The only exceptions to this rule could be individuals with extraordinarily high anabolic hormone levels."

AlwaysTryin
04-07-2014, 11:04 PM
My link;
"There hasn’t been any recorded advantage of consuming more than 0.64g/lb. The only exceptions to this rule could be individuals with extraordinarily high anabolic hormone levels."

There are huge advantages for some people relating to satiety, performance etc from increased protein. There's more to factor in than just nitrogen balance.

Personal preference and performance are HUGE factors.

Mncdk
04-07-2014, 11:12 PM
I agree personal preference should take precedence, I just don't understand why people are suggesting that people start at such high levels.
Composing a diet doesn't mean that this is what one should be eating for at least x months now. Diets should adapt to satiety, performance and so on.

AlwaysTryin
04-07-2014, 11:22 PM
I agree personal preference should take precedence, I just don't understand why people are suggesting that people start at such high levels.
Composing a diet doesn't mean that this is what one should be eating for at least x months now. Diets should adapt to satiety, performance and so on.

And I object saying I don't get why people recommend the absolute minimum when you have to factor in nutritional info is only an estimate etc, and that some people do a lot more exercise and need more protein for recovery than those test subjects etc. Why push the minimum and risk any optimal benefits? It's better to be a bit over and be safe.

AutumnHB
04-08-2014, 12:37 AM
I prefer to have my protein high because I like the taste of meat, but I agree, it may not be all that necessary.

Mncdk
04-08-2014, 01:25 AM
some people do a lot more exercise and need more protein for recovery than those test subjects etc.
Another excerpt;
"If you still think you need more than 0.82g/lb because you think you train harder than these test subjects, think again. Lemon et al. (1992) studied bodybuilders training 1.5h per day, 6 days per week and still concluded 0.75g/lb is the highest intake at which body composition benefits could occur."

And recommending 0.82 g/lb isn't the absolute minimum;
"There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle. This already includes a very safe mark-up."

I fail to understand why this is a poor place to start. Eating more is entirely voluntary, and I'm not trying to get people to eat less. Eat however much you want.
I'm just suggesting that it isn't helpful to suggest that people start with e.g. 1.25 g/lb, when they are asking for help.

AutumnHB
04-08-2014, 01:33 AM
Another excerpt;
"If you still think you need more than 0.82g/lb because you think you train harder than these test subjects, think again. Lemon et al. (1992) studied bodybuilders training 1.5h per day, 6 days per week and still concluded 0.75g/lb is the highest intake at which body composition benefits could occur."

And recommending 0.82 g/lb isn't the absolute minimum;
"There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle. This already includes a very safe mark-up."

I fail to understand why this is a poor place to start. Eating more is entirely voluntary, and I'm not trying to get people to eat less. Eat however much you want.
I'm just suggesting that it isn't helpful to suggest that people start with e.g. 1.25 g/lb, when they are asking for help.

I've already told you that that was just an example number. maybe I should have used "xg/lb" instead so this conversation could have been avoided.

Mncdk
04-08-2014, 01:51 AM
I was replying to AlwaysTryin. :)
And I used your example as an example, hence the e.g..

But since you're here, you probably shouldn't give extreme examples to rookie asking for help. Better to just point them in the right direction.
They'll just see a number and think "someone gave me something I can use!!". That's how I started, before I got a bit of guidance.

AlwaysTryin
04-08-2014, 04:33 AM
Another excerpt;
"If you still think you need more than 0.82g/lb because you think you train harder than these test subjects, think again. Lemon et al. (1992) studied bodybuilders training 1.5h per day, 6 days per week and still concluded 0.75g/lb is the highest intake at which body composition benefits could occur."

And recommending 0.82 g/lb isn't the absolute minimum;
"There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle. This already includes a very safe mark-up."

I fail to understand why this is a poor place to start. Eating more is entirely voluntary, and I'm not trying to get people to eat less. Eat however much you want.
I'm just suggesting that it isn't helpful to suggest that people start with e.g. 1.25 g/lb, when they are asking for help.

I train far more than that.

It still doesn't change my point about ensuring minimums are met safely by consuming a bit extra.

WonderPug
04-08-2014, 04:37 AM
FYI: The protein intake recommendations are maximums, not minimums, suggested by research to optimize muscle development/retention.

Obviously, someone can decide to consume more protein as a function of personal preference, but to suggest higher intake than the maximum suggested by research, regardless of a person's preference, seems ill advised.

OP, to learn more, please review the following research:




Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.

Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.

Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.

Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.

Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.



Also see:

Effect of protein intake on strength, body composition and endocrine changes in strength/power athletes. Hoffman JR, Ratamess NA, Kang J, Falvo MJ, Faigenbaum AD. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2006 Dec 13;3:12-8.

Macronutrient content of a hypoenergy diet affects nitrogen retention and muscle function in weight lifters. Walberg JL, Leidy MK, Sturgill DJ, Hinkle DE, Ritchey SJ, Sebolt DR. Int J Sports Med. 1988 Aug;9(4):261-6.

Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. Lemon PW, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Aug;73(2):767-75.

Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass. Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1988 Jan;64(1):187-93.

Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Phillips SM, Van Loon LJ. J Sports Sci. 2011;29 Suppl 1:S29-38.

Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition. Rennie MJ, Tipton KD. Annu Rev Nutr. 2000;20:457-83.

Hartman, J. W., Moore, D. R., & Phillips, S. M. (2006). Resistance training reduces whole-body protein turnover and improves net protein retention in untrained young males. Applied Physiology, Nutrition and Metabolism, 31, 557–564.

Moore, D. R., Del Bel, N. C., Nizi, K. I., Hartman, J. W., Tang, J. E., Armstrong, D. et al. (2007). Resistance training reduces fasted- and fed-state leucine turnover and increases dietary nitrogen retention in previously untrained young men. Journal of Nutrition, 137, 985–991.

Effects of exercise on dietary protein requirements. Lemon PW. Int J Sport Nutr. 1998 Dec;8(4):426-47.

Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training. Rozenek R, Ward P, Long S, Garhammer J. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2002 Sep;42(3):340-7.

Increased protein maintains nitrogen balance during exercise-induced energy deficit. Pikosky MA, Smith TJ, Grediagin A, Castaneda-Sceppa C, Byerley L, Glickman EL, Young AJ. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2008 Mar;40(3):505-12.

Dietary carbohydrate-to-fat ratio: influence on whole-body nitrogen retention, substrate utilization, and hormone response in healthy male subjects. McCargar LJ, Clandinin MT, Belcastro AN, Walker K. Am J Clin Nutr. 1989 Jun;49(6):1169-78.

Macronutrient Intakes as Determinants of Dietary Protein and Amino Acid Adequacy. Millward, DJ. J. Nutr. June 1, 2004 vol. 134 no. 6 1588S-1596S

Mrpb
04-08-2014, 04:57 AM
"There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle. This already includes a very safe mark-up."

That's what I follow.

Mrpb
04-08-2014, 05:10 AM
I'm following the 12 Week Lean Body workout plan

o oh....

Usually the programs that are listed on the bodybuilding.com site are filled with nonsense.

AlwaysTryin
04-08-2014, 02:32 PM
FYI: The protein intake recommendations are maximums, not minimums, suggested by research to optimize muscle development/retention.

Obviously, someone can decide to consume more protein as a function of personal preference, but to suggest higher intake than the maximum suggested by research, regardless of a person's preference, seems ill advised.

I'm well aware of studies Pug. The guy said he wasn't saying it had to be 1.25g/lb but rather just picked a number.

I personally (along with many others including yourself) would not consume 0.6g/lb based on personal preference, and others who would rather ensure sufficiency and a bit extra as a buffer.

Most people consuming ~ 0.62g/lb etc here are parrots and those who don't look like they even lift

1beb
04-08-2014, 05:05 PM
While I appreciate this discussion. The ratio of protein to my bodymass was never at question. I wanted assistance with two things:

1. Calculating my BMR (I've read the stickies - thank you though, it's still not clear to me which formula would be BEST for a man of my age, height, current body-fat % and activity level)
2. Targeting an overall macro ratio. More specifically, I'm wondering about the voracity of claims made in articles like this bodybuilding.com/fun/macro-math-3-keys-to-dialing-in-your-macro-ratios.html (I can't post links yet)

Appreciate the feedback.

Thanks!

Mncdk
04-08-2014, 10:27 PM
You shouldn't use that article at all, I would use the Katch-McArdle formula in the calculating macro nutrient sticky.
And your macros shouldn't be ratios, but calculated numbers for protein and fat. Once you know how much protein and fat you should eat, you can distribute "leftover" calories however you prefer.