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View Full Version : Hey R/P, at what age did you grow out of your atheist phase?



Spartan5364
03-31-2014, 05:53 PM
I was about 20 or so. Realized following the Bibles teachings result in a much better society. Too great to not be divine.

How about you guys?

ONtop888
03-31-2014, 05:54 PM
About 21.

lasher
03-31-2014, 05:57 PM
early 20's

It's a shame it took that long for my higher brain functions to kick in

Bhavasita87
03-31-2014, 06:00 PM
Realized following the Bibles teachings result in a much better society. Too great to not be divine.


The same argument could be made for more scriptures and teachings than I could count.

JohnsPeterson
03-31-2014, 06:01 PM
Early 20's

I don't take the label atheist because, that comes with a lot of associations that I don't feel are particularly accurate for me. I'm an atheist only because I'm a 'soft' atheist; that is, I lack a belief in a higher power. So because I'm atheist only by a definitional technicality, I don't feel any particular desire to associate myself with the identity politics being played with the label atheist.

I also feel that agnostic is much more relevant to my position on the question, rather than the fact that I don't believe (but don't actively disbelieve) in God either. If I identified myself as an atheist, it would cloud my position somewhat as I would be associated with common conceptions of atheists that don't apply to me. It's much easier and better for discussion, in my experience, to simply call myself agnostic. That I'm an "agnostic atheist" is an academic technicality only really suited for spaces where that's a relevant distinction. In terms of my identity and practical discussion outside of those spaces, it fails to provide me much.

lasher
03-31-2014, 06:03 PM
The same argument could be made for more scriptures and teachings than I could count.

lottsa good stuff out there


The "seeds of truth" present and active in the various religious traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God, who "enlightens every man coming into world" (cf. Jn 1: 9) and who became flesh in Christ Jesus (cf. Jn 1: 14). They are together an "effect of the Spirit of truth operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body" and which "blows where it wills" (Jn 3: 8; cf. Redemptor hominis, nn. 6, 12). - John Paul II

JHDIII1987
03-31-2014, 06:04 PM
I began to grow out of my atheist phase at the age of 19.

I then turned into an agnostic at the age of 20.

At the same time, at that very age, of 20 is when I became a Born-Again Christian.

NumeroOnce
03-31-2014, 06:09 PM
Was raised Christian, went kinda athiest as I went to university, then did some research and came up with my own belief system.

LiftTheIron
03-31-2014, 06:14 PM
Still in that 'growing out' phase so maybe never.

Supernautx
03-31-2014, 06:16 PM
Still in that 'growing out' phase so maybe never.

This. Not really sure where to go with it. Never was an atheist in the sense of going around rejecting other peoples faith and beliefs. Just lost, I suppose.

whatisbro
03-31-2014, 08:49 PM
10k

metroins
03-31-2014, 08:52 PM
The Older I get the further I depart from Christianity.

I'd rather believe in Zeus, at least he has a mountain.

jbball92
03-31-2014, 09:03 PM
had my bar mitzvah at 13, around 16-20 began to think the idea of God was dumb. around 21 started leaning back towards the idea of God, not the obvious traditional sense but "God" however you want to define him/her/it none the less

PaulG
03-31-2014, 09:08 PM
Question do any of you actually hear words in your head? As if someone is speaking to you?




The Older I get the further I depart from Christianity.

I'd rather believe in Zeus, at least he has a mountain.

I am similar. The older I get the more distanced I am from Christianity. I find it entirely inorganic for me these days. Books are an important influence, but, only to certain kinds of mind sets are some books for.

One thing Catholics did right was though was the belief that beauty is a moral imperative of all people in society; architecture, clothing, the things people made, life, etc.

homicidal_misc
03-31-2014, 09:08 PM
I am fortunate enough to say I have never gone full retard, though there was a very close call when I was a stupid 18-19 year old. Lack of mental development almost got the best of me.

jacklambert58
03-31-2014, 09:14 PM
late 20's.

stopping attending church really helped my faith (srs). just read the bible, meditate, & pray----> opened my eyes.

jacklambert58
03-31-2014, 09:20 PM
Question do any of you actually hear words in your head? As if someone is speaking to you?


no. it's more of a unique feeling and a presence you feel - just feels right. You get ideas/understandings from out of nowhere & it feels right.

MuscleXtreme
03-31-2014, 09:22 PM
I leaned more agnostic in my late teens, around 21 - 25 more of a deist, 25ish I came back to Christ.

wings_unhinged
03-31-2014, 09:25 PM
I was about 20 or so. Realized following the Bibles teachings result in a much better society. Too great to not be divine.

How about you guys?

I thought I was growing out of it several years ago. Then I realized I was being converted.

Anacletus
03-31-2014, 09:38 PM
Bout when I was 18.

Before I had gone atheist between 12-17 because of some retarded proof texting of the Bible, but luckily I took the honors track of english in high school and learned how to read a text.

sawoobley
03-31-2014, 09:57 PM
Never had an atheist phase.

uvulabrah
03-31-2014, 10:08 PM
last couple years i grew out of it

mistercollie
03-31-2014, 10:52 PM
14 - became a theist
15 - became a Jehovah's Witness
19 - became a Universalist Christian & Panentheist (disfellowshipped from JW's for heresy)
22 - denounced panentheism for panendeism, still Universalist Christian however
24 - denounced panendeism for deism
25 - became a misodeist/misotheist, no longer Universalist Christian

I really don't understand GOD anymore. I'm irate at our "maker" at this point. My assumption is that GOD is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. Perhaps GOD transcends us in thought & form, but I'm more & more thinking GOD is a limited, finite being.

Nevertheless, I condemn GOD for leaving humans in complete ignorance about their existence, forcing us into the dilemma of pain & suffering, and refusing to be an active ruler/sovereign.

Bro_montana
03-31-2014, 11:23 PM
no. it's more of a unique feeling and a presence you feel - just feels right. You get ideas/understandings from out of nowhere & it feels right.
I can attest to this as a former theist. I came to realize that I mistook the inner voice we all have as something that was special or "holy" and was gods way of somehow guiding me when in reality it was just my conscience. There's definitely a unique feeling to be had... feelings of purpose.. of hope.. overall it is a great feeling of security but just too bad that i don't think it's real :(


14 - became a theist
15 - became a Jehovah's Witness
19 - became a Universalist Christian & Panentheist (disfellowshipped from JW's for heresy)
22 - denounced panentheism for panendeism, still Universalist Christian however
24 - denounced panendeism for deism
25 - became a misodeist/misotheist, no longer Universalist Christian

I really don't understand GOD anymore. I'm irate at our "maker" at this point. My assumption is that GOD is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. Perhaps GOD transcends us in thought & form, but I'm more & more thinking GOD is a limited, finite being.

Nevertheless, I condemn GOD for leaving humans in complete ignorance about their existence, forcing us into the dilemma of pain & suffering, and refusing to be an active ruler/sovereign.
Jesus christ, no pun intended

NoMilkForYou
03-31-2014, 11:44 PM
Never had such a phase. What about a 'agnostic phase' for lifetime theists?

TheJimmyRustler
04-01-2014, 02:26 AM
21, still part of the non-believer master race destined to be cooked medium rare for eternity in the flames of Shaitan's oven

When will it be my turn for spiritual diplomatic immunity?

s2pid
04-01-2014, 03:11 AM
21 is when the Ego was observed and the switch to awareness started.

That was the end of accepting labels.

Harbinger
04-01-2014, 03:26 AM
ITT, lots of failure to launch.

Weightaholic
04-01-2014, 03:34 AM
:rolleyes:

Another top quality thread on the R/P.

Tha big kahoona
04-01-2014, 04:03 AM
OP, can't see your age, so not sherrif when you were 20 was last week or 23 years ago

Spartan5364
04-01-2014, 05:06 AM
OP, can't see your age, so not sherrif when you were 20 was last week or 23 years ago
5 years ago cuz

Alchem
04-01-2014, 05:09 AM
at about 18, realized how much of a phaggot I was becoming, and started researching Islam again.

Harbinger
04-01-2014, 05:23 AM
at about 18, realized how much of a phaggot I was becoming, and started researching Islam again.

I don't think you count, you believe in the wrong god ... you're still an atheist.

Messier_Object
04-01-2014, 06:34 AM
Was never an atheist, though I could have considered myself lukewarm. Once I got married, I became more serious about Christianity. Decided the best course of action was fundamentalism and learn from there. Throughout the years I've focused more on orthodoxy and the church fathers writings thanks to Ontop and lasher.

Meatros
04-01-2014, 07:08 AM
ITT people apparently choose their belief based on what's current in fashion. BRB, 'phases'. LOL.

Harbinger
04-01-2014, 07:14 AM
ITT people apparently choose their belief based on what's current in fashion. BRB, 'phases'. LOL.

Now you're not being completely fair, you know that geographical location plays a huge roll in ones chosen religion.

Meatros
04-01-2014, 07:17 AM
Now you're not being completely fair, you know that geographical location plays a huge roll in ones chosen religion.

Heh, I'm just wondering when the current 'Christianity phase' will wear off and these people flip to the next big thing...

ONtop888
04-01-2014, 07:21 AM
Heh, I'm just wondering when the current 'Christianity phase' will wear off and these people flip to the next big thing...

The OP is facetious. It is not inaccurate to recall the changing spheres of one's belief, theological or otherwise, and construe them as different phases one has passed through until they reached their ultimate destination (belief in the triune God).

mistercollie
04-01-2014, 10:31 AM
ITT people apparently choose their belief based on what's current in fashion. BRB, 'phases'. LOL.I don't think I've ever accepted anything mainstream when it comes to belief in god.


ITT, lots of failure to launch.If I could somehow escape belief in GOD for nonbelief, I would. Being a content little armchair atheist seems much less taxing on the mind.

However, I took the red pill. My mind is inextricably intertwined with GOD.

TH3SHR3DD3R
04-01-2014, 10:40 AM
I have become more militantly atheistic with age. The older I get the more certain I am that there is no God and that all people that believe in it are wrong and should be dealt with.

Woundwort
04-01-2014, 10:42 AM
Never was atheist, i've found myself moving more towards a belief in universal consciousness which could be referred to as "God" instead.

lasher
04-01-2014, 10:44 AM
I have become more militantly atheistic with age. The older I get the more certain I am that there is no God and that all people that believe in it are wrong and should be dealt with.

Oh my, do tell, what is your Final_Solution for the theist problem?

homicidal_misc
04-01-2014, 10:45 AM
Oh my, do tell, what is your Final_Solution for the theist problem?
to eat them

GregariousWolf
04-01-2014, 10:47 AM
to eat them

Are Muslims kosher?

homicidal_misc
04-01-2014, 10:48 AM
Are Muslims kosher?
I think they are more so Halal.

magog704
04-01-2014, 10:49 AM
right after i started regularly huffing air duster

jk guise

H6TW6v39_kQ

poisyn
04-01-2014, 10:53 AM
Believing in some god has become more and more of a ludicrous idea for me over the past 6 years or so

Apeus
04-01-2014, 11:05 AM
I feel like you're considering atheism itself to be no more than a “phase."

People can go through atheistic or theistic phases, but it doesn't make them one or the other.

I've been an atheist since I was around 12 or 13.

When I was 18 I experienced the death of a close family member for the first time and “became" a Christian again for about 8 or so months.

It didn't last and though I considered myself a christian at the time, I realized after I wasn't.

That was a “theistic phase" but it doesn't mean all theism is a phase.

TH3SHR3DD3R
04-01-2014, 12:25 PM
Oh my, do tell, what is your Final_Solution for the theist problem?

Working on it. In the meantime, see this post I wrote:


I also want the person that hates me to not hate me but to love me as I love them. I want all humans to achieve their utmost happiness and worth. I want that no person should die to achieve this world. Unfortunately a world full of happy, fulfilled, functional and compassionate adults is going to be met with total resistance.

ONtop888
04-01-2014, 12:43 PM
Working on it. In the meantime, see this post I wrote:Forcing your vision of happiness on others is always going to be met with resistance. The oddity of your position is that religious belief has been evolutionarily advantageous; promoting happiness, fulfillment, closer relations, group cohesion. It is though humans intrinsically seek that which is necessarily beyond them, an Absolute reality, and yet, your solution is to try to bury an irrevocably aspect of human nature.

TH3SHR3DD3R
04-01-2014, 12:54 PM
Forcing your vision of happiness on others is always going to be met with resistance. The oddity of your position is that religious belief has been evolutionarily advantageous; promoting happiness, fulfillment, closer relations, group cohesion. It is though humans intrinsically seek that which is necessarily beyond them, an Absolute reality, and yet, your solution is to try to bury an irrevocably aspect of human nature.

Evidence suggests that religious belief is now evolutionarily disadvantageous, sowing discord, war and suffering in the face of our new understanding of reality via science. I contend that religious thinking will either die out or we will die out. Religion is not necessary for a spiritual life.

ONtop888
04-01-2014, 01:03 PM
Evidence suggests that religious belief is now evolutionarily disadvantageous, sowing discord, war and suffering in the face of our new understanding of reality via science. The Enlightenment mythos of human progress without the shackles of religion was exposed brutally in WWI....what exactly were the religious motives for that insanely destructive and violent war? Not religious, to be sure.


I contend that religious thinking will either die out or we will die out. Religion is not necessary for a spiritual life.Evidence suggests no such thing. Religious beliefs and ritualistic practices existed even in some pre-human primates, it's not going anywhere despite the current hiccup in history where a relatively sizable minority of human beings are atheists. Spirituality without community is simply self-aggrandizement, it always proves itself to be in vain.

CRyan64
04-01-2014, 01:35 PM
I have become more militantly atheistic with age. The older I get the more certain I am that there is no God and that all people that believe in it are wrong and should be dealt with.

pretty much the exact opposite for me lel.

the more i age the less i claim to know and the less i give a fuk about wat anyone believes/does.

hell it's almost like i'm tolerant of intolerance LOL

so long as you don't fuk with me. iz okay if u fuk with other ppl though.

Clense
04-01-2014, 01:59 PM
about 18

Alchem
04-01-2014, 02:19 PM
about 18
Changed his mind after some 1 on 1 theological discussions via Skype

JLamud39
04-01-2014, 02:23 PM
I grew out of it at 19, when I realized it was irrational to be "certain" that there is no God when the scientific theories so touted by atheists are not conclusively proven. I also realized that religion, especially Christianity, has a lot of merits. I don't consider myself fully Christian, since I think a lot of Christian theology is just as irrational as atheism, but I am still a supporter of Christianity to promote good morals and practices among the population.

chimburgandy
04-01-2014, 03:16 PM
I have somehow never once been persuaded or intrigued by any concept of god and its place in our world, my "higher brain functions" kicked in right away I guess.


at about 18, realized how much of a phaggot I was becoming.

It's only gay if you look him in the eyes while you finish.




Evidence suggests no such thing. Religious beliefs and ritualistic practices existed even in some pre-human primates, it's not going anywhere despite the current hiccup in history where a relatively sizable minority of human beings are atheists. Spirituality without community is simply self-aggrandizement, it always proves itself to be in vain.

Human survival was dependent on our ability to roam as large groups, work in teams, and rely on one another in order to encourage elongated life expectancies. Any early religious or spiritualistic practices exhibited by pre-human primates were, in hindsight, clearly a feable attempt to paint the world or how relationship to each which carries on to this very day just in a more veiled and commercial presence. Religion isn't the only medium to encourage unity, it is the only one however that can be as divisive and as detrimental to its own adherents or those in opposition.

And in just the way that technology is leaping forward at exponential rates, so too is the number of non-believers. We haven't been studying it long enough to gauge it properly, but as information becomes more widely accessible and future generations become less accepting of unsubstantiated claims and contradictions to the science that determines the world they live in, old institutions will eventually die off gradually just as segregation and homophobia have with each passing generation. My dream isn't a world without religion, it's a world where people practice their own beliefs at home and where we all benefit from churches being taxed and the mere though of teaching intelligent design to our youth isn't considered for a second, and where no personal religious belief can influence the law in the world we all have to share.

tk217
04-01-2014, 03:24 PM
Hmm...

What to wear today... Islamic scarf... Jewish hat... or Christian necklace...

So many Abrahamic religions! Oh I'll just wear them all!

Harbinger
04-01-2014, 03:25 PM
Hmm...

What to wear today... Islamic scarf... Jewish hat... or Christian necklace...

So many Abrahamic religions! Oh I'll just wear them all!

One of them has to be right!

_Ryan_
04-01-2014, 05:17 PM
One of them has to be right!

I'll stick to my fedora thank you very much!

Lucretius
04-01-2014, 05:30 PM
Never went through a religious phase in my life - as I get older I only grow a stronger atheist.

TH3SHR3DD3R
04-03-2014, 09:20 AM
The Enlightenment mythos of human progress without the shackles of religion was exposed brutally in WWI....what exactly were the religious motives for that insanely destructive and violent war? Not religious, to be sure.

Nor were they atheistic. For an accurate analysis of the causes of evil during the Nazi regime I suggest you read The Self Beyond Itself.




If you say so. But day after day I read study after study saying that religion is on the way out.

[quote=ONTop888]Religious beliefs and ritualistic practices existed even in some pre-human primates, it's not going anywhere despite the current hiccup in history where a relatively sizable minority of human beings are atheists.

Again, if you say so. And again, the studies indicate otherwise. But if you say so.


Spirituality without community is simply self-aggrandizement, it always proves itself to be in vain.

I agree, but why did we stop talking about religion?

ONtop888
04-03-2014, 11:34 AM
Nor were they atheistic. For an accurate analysis of the causes of evil during the Nazi regime I suggest you read The Self Beyond Itself. They weren't caused by "atheism" but they were "atheistic" in the sense that theism was not a causative factor. So much for the glorious post-Christendom era of peace....




If you say so. But day after day I read study after study saying that religion is on the way out.Really? While people in the West have become more nominally religious, the global south is exploding.




Again, if you say so. And again, the studies indicate otherwise. But if you say so. What do these studies say about religious growth outside of the West?




I agree, but why did we stop talking about religion?
When you brought up the spiritual ideal divorced from religion, which is a false spirituality. And if you mean communal spirituality then you are talking about religion as opposed to a dude who meditates alone on the grandeur of the stars without formal connection to other star meditators.

magog704
04-03-2014, 11:38 AM
i think apologetics shiits the bed in general. the reactionary apologetics in the wake of modern cosmology only seems to further remove allegory from religion. faith is supposed to be poetic, not empirical.

leafs43
04-03-2014, 11:39 AM
Grow out of atheist phase?



lol wut?

Pyrodox11
04-03-2014, 11:43 AM
Was a Catholic till 21 or 22. Understanding how the universe works makes it EXTREMELY difficult to continue practicing a faith. Not an atheist, but agnostic till I see concrete evidence.

SigmundFreud
04-03-2014, 02:15 PM
18-21 was my atheist/agnostic phase. Then I broadened my reading and took upper level science classes. Only learning one POV/subject really cramps the mind and increases closed mindedness. Adding poetry, tracking, fishing, lifting, history, music, psychology, woodworking, auto repair, different cultures gives a lot of perspective. I haven't done all this list and have done things not on the list, just clarifying before someone tries to start a silly argument about it.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
04-03-2014, 04:14 PM
- Was religious

- Got an education

- Began to have a basic understanding of science

- Improved critical thinking skills

- Became Agnostic

Not sure how its possible to have critical thinking skills and be religious at the same time

lasher
04-03-2014, 04:15 PM
- Became Agnostic

Not sure how its possible to have critical thinking skills and be religious at the same time

The important thing is to feel superior to everyone else.

NeoKantian
04-03-2014, 04:21 PM
i think apologetics shiits the bed in general. the reactionary apologetics in the wake of modern cosmology only seems to further remove allegory from religion. faith is supposed to be poetic, not empirical.
Who are the reactionary apologetics and what are there views?

I know William Lane Craig rejects relativity because he believes in absolute time and space for his Kalam Cosmological Argument, but I don't know if he qualifies as a reactionary.

lasher
04-03-2014, 04:24 PM
Who are the reactionary apologetics and what are there views?

I know William Lane Craig rejects relativity because he believes in absolute time and space for his Kalam Cosmological Argument, but I don't know if he qualifies as a reactionary.

He does not reject relativity. He rejects a specific interpretive model of relativity. There is more than one, equally supported by the equations.

ONtop888
04-03-2014, 04:25 PM
- Was religious

- Got an education

- Began to have a basic understanding of science

- Improved critical thinking skills

- Became Agnostic

Not sure how its possible to have critical thinking skills and be religious at the same time

That's probably indicative of your lack of critical thinking skills, which seems to be supported by your boasting of an education and "critical thinking skills" (lmao).

Pheint
04-03-2014, 04:29 PM
Around-about 18.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
04-03-2014, 05:01 PM
The important thing is to feel superior to everyone else.

I disagree.


That's probably indicative of your lack of critical thinking skills, which seems to be supported by your boasting of an education and "critical thinking skills" (lmao).

Do you know what critical thinking is?

LiftTheIron
04-03-2014, 05:10 PM
Do you know what critical thinking is?

Nope, please use your superior intellect to explain.

Keseff
04-03-2014, 05:13 PM
Freethought

Spartan5364
04-03-2014, 05:22 PM
thanks for all the replies guys. Atheists as well.
Some of us have grown out of it, for others that time will yet come.
Cheers erryone

ll ReNeGaDe ll
04-03-2014, 05:24 PM
Nope, please use your superior intellect to explain.

Meh.

Part of it is using logic and reason. Reason involves having a factual base before accepting a claim and believing it (a reason for belief). "Faith" clearly falls short of this requirement.

ONtop888
04-03-2014, 05:34 PM
Meh.

Part of it is using logic and reason. Reason involves having a factual base before accepting a claim and believing it (a reason for belief). "Faith" clearly falls short of this requirement.

I don't have "faith" that there is an eternal creator. I employed reason and logic to come to this position. My faith is in the revelation of Christ.

And having a "reason" for a belief need not be an empirically verifiable fact, you pulled that out of your magician's hat.

GreatOldOne
04-03-2014, 05:40 PM
I don't have "faith" that there is an eternal creator. I employed reason and logic to come to this position. My faith is in the revelation of Christ.

And having a "reason" for a belief need not be an empirically verifiable fact, you pulled that out of your magician's hat.

^^^ Derp.

lasher
04-03-2014, 05:43 PM
^^^ Derp.

^^^ Derp.

ONtop888
04-03-2014, 05:45 PM
^^^ Derp.

Nothing derps harder than your evil god argument. Jusaiyan.

GreatOldOne
04-03-2014, 05:48 PM
Nothing derps harder than your evil god argument. Jusaiyan.

It's undefeated. Feel free to bring it (thomistic stuff...oops, evil can be beautiful).

You won't be using you're reason, though...you'll be using your emotion and personal taste. You can't rationally come up with an eternal creator, nor describe it's qualities.

Emotionally, though...you're bound to end in evil-god-land and you'll have evidence and reason (in turn founded on emotion).

ll ReNeGaDe ll
04-03-2014, 05:49 PM
I don't have "faith" that there is an eternal creator. I employed reason and logic to come to this position. My faith is in the revelation of Christ.

Okay then. My statement referred to religiosity not a belief in a creator in the absence of religion.


And having a "reason" for a belief need not be an empirically verifiable fact, you pulled that out of your magician's hat.

Then what are the standards for a solid basis for a belief using rational thought and critical thinking?

ONtop888
04-03-2014, 05:53 PM
Okay then. My statement referred to religiosity not a belief in a creator in the absence of religion. I still disagree since people have to examine their beliefs in light of history, science, experience, etc. which demands the use of reason, but nevertheless I digress.




Then what are the standards for a solid basis for a belief using rational thought and critical thinking?

That the reason coheres with, or at least does not contradict, reality or itself (logically valid). So, one can reasonably conclude that their wife loves them because of xyz, but they cannot conclusively prove this as though it was factual.

mntbikedude
04-03-2014, 05:53 PM
I spent most of my life being very devout and pretty much followed and believed what was expected. As I got older I was angry at some of the things I was expected to believe in and basically went about distancing myself from much of what I believed. Now I have been able to look back and appreciate that good things and things that I do feel good about and those I have added back to my belief system.

Much like discovering cracks in my belief foundation I ripped it all back and now I am very cautious what I add back in and don't add anything that I personally don't believe. My own religion has also spoke about this and was very encouraging to those of us that have our doubts and made it clear we were welcome doubts and all but to focus on what we do have faith in and go from there.

ONtop888
04-03-2014, 05:56 PM
It's undefeated. Feel free to bring it (thomistic stuff...oops, evil can be beautiful).

You won't be using you're reason, though...you'll be using your emotion and personal taste. You can't rationally come up with an eternal creator, nor describe it's qualities.

Emotionally, though...you're bound to end in evil-god-land and you'll have evidence and reason (in turn founded on emotion).
This post is as emotional as your evil god. No thanks Jeff. It just screams GOO.

GreatOldOne
04-03-2014, 05:59 PM
This post is as emotional as your evil god. No thanks Jeff. It just screams GOO.

The only two people to seriously discuss this with me were Myriad and TranceNRG. It's a disturbing topic if you can get past your ego.

Myriad relies on the thomistic approach which breaks down when evil can be beautiful...wrecking that system (as it should be as a transcendental property interchangable with being, good...etc...). I brought this up to him and he wigged out and wouldn't talk about it. He seemed really nervous about the idea that a Hegelian God might be real and becoming evil, so topics like pessimism were difficult for him to approach.

With Trance, interestingly his approach seemed to be a retreat back into moral relativity. 'We cannot know Gods plan and our ideas of Gods morals are not valid'. I can respect that, and indeed it is the logical escape from the evil problem but it doesn't take so much as a nibble out of the evidential issue.

Actually Tamorlane and A-GAME have taken this up seriously and pointed out the non-self which does away with a subject of suffering and solving it that way...but I'm not sure that gets a cosmic meat-grinder off-the hook from moral judgement. It just erases the value of moral judgement.

The evidence is: God is evil.

Add in your cosmological argument and now you can be certain that evil has a divine purpose for becoming real.

Add in subjectivity as actual knowledge and God as omnipotent and omniscient is a pure sadomasochistic freak-show.

Your defense: the bible, retreat into moral relativism, retreat from subjectivity as knowledge (normally you guys use that to attack the atheists/materialists), embrace of skepticism (inductive knowledge isn't good enough...etc...despite how things obviously look).

Pheint
04-03-2014, 06:01 PM
Not sure how its possible to have critical thinking skills and be religious at the same time

Not all religions are so enamored of themselves that they presume to understand the absolute origin of the universe. Just because someone is religious does not inherently mean that they believe in a cosmic god interchangeable with the Abrahamic 'God'.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
04-03-2014, 06:11 PM
I still disagree since people have to examine their beliefs in light of history, science, experience, etc. which demands the use of reason, but nevertheless I digress.





That the reason coheres with, or at least does not contradict, reality or itself (logically valid). So, one can reasonably conclude that their wife loves them because of xyz, but they cannot conclusively prove this as though it was factual.


If someone concludes his wife loves him because she buys him potatoes every day, can he reasonably conclude based on this alone that she loves him? It doesn't contradict with reality, nor does it contradict with itself.

According to you this man is engaging in critical thinking?

ONtop888
04-03-2014, 06:14 PM
If someone concludes his wife loves him because she buys him potatoes every day, can he reasonably conclude based on this alone that she loves him? It doesn't contradict with reality, nor does it contradict with itself.

According to you this man is engaging in critical thinking?
We would have to examine the premises and see if they cohere with reality. Buying bags of potatoes, from my observation, does not signify spousal love. The gift aspect, however, very well could, but more information would be needed.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
04-03-2014, 07:09 PM
We would have to examine the premises and see if they cohere with reality. Buying bags of potatoes, from my observation, does not signify spousal love. The gift aspect, however, very well could, but more information would be needed.

This sounds awfully subjective brah. How could it not cohere with reality?

In fact, what does it mean to "cohere with reality?" How do you determine what reality is?

9987
04-04-2014, 09:55 AM
Who are the reactionary apologetics and what are there views?

I know William Lane Craig rejects relativity because he believes in absolute time and space for his Kalam Cosmological Argument, but I don't know if he qualifies as a reactionary.
Say what!? I didn't believe this at first so I had to look it up. I mean...I've heard of Craig's sophistry before, but I guess this really tops the chart. It turns out this is correct. The whole idea of what Craig is trying to do is show there is absolute simultaneity and the results of Einstein are apparent but not real. In other words Einstein's theories are merely tricks of the mind.

Further proof from my thread that the philosophy of religion is a radical disease that rots the mind.

Messier_Object
04-04-2014, 10:11 AM
Say what!? I didn't believe this at first so I had to look it up. I mean...I've heard of Craig's sophistry before, but I guess this really tops the chart. It turns out this is correct. The whole idea of what Craig is trying to do is show there is absolute simultaneity and the results of Einstein are apparent but not real. In other words Einstein's theories are merely tricks of the mind.

Further proof from my thread that the philosophy of religion is a radical disease that rots the mind.

How does Einstein's relativity mesh with quantum mechanics?

tpittma2
04-04-2014, 11:03 AM
Does agnostic count? I grew out of Christianity when I was about 16 though. I never really got to the point of saying "I know there is no god", because I'm not sure.

Got educated in high school and college and realized the bible doesn't make sense at all. Like I said, IDK if their is a higher being or "God", but I'm pretty sure it isn't the christian one. If there is a higher being, then I'm pretty sure he couldn't care less about what a few carbon-based organisms on a tiny planet in a massive, infinite universe are doing.

Woundwort
04-04-2014, 11:56 AM
How does Einstein's relativity mesh with quantum mechanics?

Quantum physics is obviously a whole different ball game, things that are laws on the macro level don't apply on the quantum level. But I wouldn't say that's a justification for saying relativity isn't a thing.

anxietybrah
04-04-2014, 12:07 PM
I was a christian until I learned to think rationally around 10-11 years old.

I was never a proper atheist. It has always seemed most likely that there was some sort of creator of the universe even if there isn't a god in the biblical sense. There is much we don't know about what constitutes 'being' and 'soul' and eternity.

Now I think I am a deist, but my morality is based in enlightenment ethics such as Kant and the will to power and natural law found in traditional white norse and european mythos.

anxietybrah
04-04-2014, 12:09 PM
Does agnostic count? I grew out of Christianity when I was about 16 though. I never really got to the point of saying "I know there is no god", because I'm not sure.

Got educated in high school and college and realized the bible doesn't make sense at all. Like I said, IDK if their is a higher being or "God", but I'm pretty sure it isn't the christian one. If there is a higher being, then I'm pretty sure he couldn't care less about what a few carbon-based organisms on a tiny planet in a massive, infinite universe are doing.

You're a Deist which is the logical choice.

If you're of european heritage, try reading about old pagan myth and religion. I think it will make much more sense for you than the ramblings of a desert dwelling jew.

MuscleXtreme
04-04-2014, 12:28 PM
I was a christian until I learned to think rationally around 10-11 years old.

I was never a proper atheist. It has always seemed most likely that there was some sort of creator of the universe even if there isn't a god in the biblical sense. There is much we don't know about what constitutes 'being' and 'soul' and eternity.

Now I think I am a deist, but my morality is based in enlightenment ethics such as Kant and the will to power and natural law found in traditional white norse and european mythos.



Lulz, basis his morality on a self-contradictory system.
Claims to think rationally.

Not sure if srs

anxietybrah
04-04-2014, 12:30 PM
Lulz, basis his morality on a self-contradictory system.
Claims to think rationally.

Not sure if srs

What is contradictory about it?

Think about it though, so you don't make a fool of yourself when I rip you to shreds in rebuttal.

homicidal_misc
04-04-2014, 12:31 PM
Lulz, basis his morality on a self-contradictory system.
Claims to think rationally.

Not sure if srs
this. It's pretty shocking how some people claim to think rationally and discount (in this case) religion only hold some of the most hilariously irrational positions supporting their views.

MuscleXtreme
04-04-2014, 12:37 PM
What is contradictory about it?

Think about it though, so you don't make a fool of yourself when I rip you to shreds in rebuttal.


Lol ohhhh I'm quaking in my boots.


Explain how Kant can know about the numinal world, when he says the numinal is unknowable.

Explain how there is human freedom, when there is no preceding cause.

Explain how things in themselves exist if they are unknowable.

Does every human posses the same set of 12 categories?


Lol at this guy following a contradictory and broken system and then claims himself rational.

anxietybrah
04-04-2014, 12:38 PM
this. It's pretty shocking how some people claim to think rationally and discount (in this case) religion only hold some of the most hilariously irrational positions supporting their views.

You too are welcome to expose yourself as a retard by actually explaining your reasoning behind your claim.

anxietybrah
04-04-2014, 12:39 PM
Lol ohhhh I'm quaking in my boots.


Explain how Kant can know about the numinal world, when he says the numinal is unknowable.

Explain how there is human freedom, when there is no preceding cause.

Explain how things in themselves exist if they are unknowable.

Does every human posses the same set of 12 categories?


Lol at this guy following a contradictory and broken system and then claims himself rational.

Moron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative


Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law

ONtop888
04-04-2014, 12:41 PM
This sounds awfully subjective brah. How could it not cohere with reality?

In fact, what does it mean to "cohere with reality?" How do you determine what reality is?

Not necessarily. There's
Not much subjectivity within causal theories that cohere with observation of cause and effect in one's daily experiences.

Admittedly, though, the question of one's love for another is more subjective, but even then one can reasonably infer from certain actions that their spouse loves them, provided that we have a shared definition of love.

ONtop888
04-04-2014, 12:42 PM
Moron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative

Like beheading adulterers in Islam?

Kant's moral system isn't atrocious. Rather, there are simply better one's to follow, like that of Jesus....FTW.

MuscleXtreme
04-04-2014, 01:26 PM
Moron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative



And not a single refutation was seen that day.

Glad you're still following the self - defeating thoughts from a poverty non - indoor plumbing using, 350+ year old washed up thoughts. Ahahahahahahahaha

aRCaNEbrah
04-04-2014, 02:07 PM
And not a single refutation was seen that day.

Glad you're still following the self - defeating thoughts from a poverty non - indoor plumbing using, 350+ year old washed up thoughts. Ahahahahahahahaha

says the guy following the poverty, non-indoor plumbing, 2000+ year old washed up thoughts Ahahahahahahahahaha

ll ReNeGaDe ll
04-04-2014, 02:43 PM
Not necessarily. There's
Not much subjectivity within causal theories that cohere with observation of cause and effect in one's daily experiences.

Of course there is, unless they somehow eliminate all other possible explanations. When is this even possible when discussing interpersonal relationships?


Admittedly, though, the question of one's love for another is more subjective, but even then one can reasonably infer from certain actions that their spouse loves them, provided that we have a shared definition of love.

So in other words, your standards for critical thinking is astonishingly low. I don't think any mainstream publication shares this view of critical thinking.

NeoKantian
04-04-2014, 03:09 PM
Say what!? I didn't believe this at first so I had to look it up. I mean...I've heard of Craig's sophistry before, but I guess this really tops the chart. It turns out this is correct. The whole idea of what Craig is trying to do is show there is absolute simultaneity and the results of Einstein are apparent but not real. In other words Einstein's theories are merely tricks of the mind.

Further proof from my thread that the philosophy of religion is a radical disease that rots the mind.
For Craig it's theology and metaphysics first, then reality second. There's a debate against Sean Carroll (at least I think it was Carroll) where he specifically states that if faith says one thing and reality says another...reject reality.

ONtop888
04-04-2014, 04:46 PM
Of course there is, unless they somehow eliminate all other possible explanations. When is this even possible when discussing interpersonal relationships?

So in other words, your standards for critical thinking is astonishingly low. I don't think any mainstream publication shares this view of critical thinking.Critical thinking applies to rational analysis of subjectivity too, your definition is incredibly narrow. Read about phenomenology or a whole series of social sciences, all of which have academic journals and publish on similar topics.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
04-05-2014, 03:45 AM
Critical thinking applies to rational analysis of subjectivity too, your definition is incredibly narrow. Read about phenomenology or a whole series of social sciences, all of which have academic journals and publish on similar topics.

You're missing the point. You can't say "I don't know this to be true, but I believe it to be true" and say you have used critical thinking to arrive at your belief. Surely, you used some form of reasoning but not critical thinking. Even worse for theists who say "I know this to be true" regarding their religion.

Hey_Jay
04-05-2014, 03:51 AM
grew out of my theist ways around 30ish. then atheist for life hi 5

ONtop888
04-05-2014, 05:34 AM
You're missing the point. You can't say "I don't know this to be true, but I believe it to be true" and say you have used critical thinking to arrive at your belief.

Surely, you used some form of reasoning but not critical thinking.When a theist says that a First Cause must necessarily exist, they have came to this position through rational thinking which is no different than "critical thinking." They have examined the evidence, cause and effect, and logically deduced the implications. That is a critical analysis and it does constitute a form of knowledge.

I have never heard that "critical thinking" demands that one forms a conclusion with absolute certainty. I think you're making things up. I just took a doctoral level pedagogy course, and "thinking critically" is the big catch phrase and the apparent "goal" for undergrads. All it means is to examine a problematic, could be as subjective as literary work, with a critical lens in light of evidence and/or related theories/themes.

Anondragon2012
04-05-2014, 05:43 AM
I was about 20 or so. Realized following the Bibles teachings result in a much better society. Too great to not be divine.

How about you guys?

OP went potatoe. Logic fail.
Bible was a book written by men and the only thing it shows is that men can be great and disciplined no matter if God exists or not.
That said I doubt the Bible is a good example of that. The old Testament is a clusterfck of crazy people murdering and raping if you ask me.

The new testament I find much more sensible and intriguing. Well I am Catholic originally after all.

basement iron
04-05-2014, 07:26 AM
For Craig it's theology and metaphysics first, then reality second. There's a debate against Sean Carroll (at least I think it was Carroll) where he specifically states that if faith says one thing and reality says another...reject reality.

Yeah Craig is a loon. That's nothing new.

Ghosts in the machine oh my!!

ll ReNeGaDe ll
04-05-2014, 04:48 PM
When a theist says that a First Cause must necessarily exist, they have came to this position through rational thinking which is no different than "critical thinking." They have examined the evidence, cause and effect, and logically deduced the implications. That is a critical analysis and it does constitute a form of knowledge.

OK. And how does that relate to my statement about believing in a religion?


I have never heard that "critical thinking" demands that one forms a conclusion with absolute certainty. I think you're making things up. I just took a doctoral level pedagogy course, and "thinking critically" is the big catch phrase and the apparent "goal" for undergrads. All it means is to examine a problematic, could be as subjective as literary work, with a critical lens in light of evidence and/or related theories/themes.

That's not what I'm saying. Critical thinking involves being skeptical, until seeing evidence. The evidence for any particular religion is pretty much 0. All "evidence" for each religion can be explained by another variable. Hence one should be skeptical of believing such things until actual evidence comes in.

Hey_Jay
04-07-2014, 03:54 AM
Yeah Craig is a loon. That's nothing new.

Ghosts in the machine oh my!!i wonder what his iq is

Alchem
04-07-2014, 04:44 AM
That's not what I'm saying. Critical thinking involves being skeptical, until seeing evidence. The evidence for any particular religion is pretty much 0. All "evidence" for each religion can be explained by another variable. Hence one should be skeptical of believing such things until actual evidence comes in.
This implies that you've seen all the evidence/arguments for every religion, which I highly doubt.