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ddjoeyd
12-02-2013, 03:13 PM
Hi all,

I am fascinated by Intermittent Fasting and although I am actually under weight if anything I find it incredibly powerful as a way of focusing my mind, feeling more confident, feeling more relaxed, more sociable, my life is actually so much better when I have that feeling of no food in my stomach.

As soon as I eat something I feel sluggish, tired, less interested in socialising, more introverted. It's a really odd but fasting has this very good side effect for me.

I was wondering has anyone else experienced this heightened happiness and confidence and what is the science behind it?

My issue is that I'm starting to rely on it quite heavily as a way of enjoying my social and work life more and it means I'm probably getting more underweight which isnt probably too good. Now I just have a big meal in the evenings so that by the morning I'm feeling good again and I don't eat again until dinner. And I tend to peak around midday-feeling really happy and elated and clear minded

Id really love to hear other people's thoughts on this.


Many thanks

cumminslifter
12-02-2013, 04:26 PM
increased hormones such as norephinephrin

ddjoeyd
12-02-2013, 04:34 PM
increased hormones such as norephinephrin

Okay....is that a good or bad thing?

cumminslifter
12-02-2013, 04:39 PM
Okay....is that a good or bad thing?neither good nor bad without context

ddjoeyd
12-02-2013, 05:02 PM
neither good nor bad without context

Thanks cumminslifter, I appreciate your knowledge as it's given me something to look into. ..

StriveForGold
12-02-2013, 05:17 PM
Subquestion. Any validity that more serotonin is produced in the absence of carbs? I've never really noticed a difference, but I know I feel better training fasted.

cumminslifter
12-02-2013, 05:20 PM
Subquestion. Any validity that more serotonin is produced in the absence of carbs? I've never really noticed a difference, but I know I feel better training fasted.actually i high carb diet is more likely to produce more serotonin

StriveForGold
12-02-2013, 05:22 PM
actually i high carb diet is more likely to produce more serotonin

Damn, brah, I ain't got no room for high carb on this cut.

cumminslifter
12-02-2013, 05:52 PM
Damn, brah, I ain't got no room for high carb on this cut.i wouldnt worry about carbs playing a major factor, there are tons of other variables. trying to manipulate hormones through your diet is pointless

shesprints
12-02-2013, 06:02 PM
Anecdotally, I used to get crazy euphoria when I was anorexic and I'm SURE that the chemical effects were part of the reason why I hung on to the disorder so stubbornly. But I would also get crazy horrible lows after awhile due to starvation and fraying nerves.

Hunger high is dangerous to play around with, and I'm concerned for the OP. Many people don't realize how frequently anorexia can arise not from poor body image but from addiction to the chemical effects of starvation. See this site: http://edbites.com/

I am also concerned because the OP seems to have underlying emotional issues relating to self-confidence. You can find better ways to psych yourself up for social interaction than starving yourself. Please be careful. You must realize that who you are while high on hunger is a false front, and you should NOT have to rely on creating that.

I am not as euphoric/living in magic-land where I feel superhuman anymore... but I am stronger day to day and my moods are now far more EVEN than they were when I was starving.

Oh and yes. Carbs make you happier.

rosschef91
12-02-2013, 06:04 PM
To be honest there are times where I feel better if I haven't eaten, although if I skip breakfast I feel awful. I can't go a whole day without eating but times when I can't be bothered cooking after a stupidly long shift, I feel quite good! Maybe mine is down to lazyness/tiredness but maybe you feel sluggish when not eating the right stuff or eating too much? Just a thought:)

ddjoeyd
12-08-2013, 10:06 AM
Hi all 

I've been working on my issue this last week and reading a lot. Basically I've come to the decision that my mood and this euphoria etc. is all related to insulin levels. Because I know as soon as I break my fast and eat something I go from my euphoric state to a slump. So I'm trying to figure out which foods wont make me slump when I come of the fast but hopefully keep me in a good mood. So obviously protein, fibre and low carbs are the way to go to avoid my insulin level rocketing and getting that sluggish feeling.

Ive also been thinking about my euphoria in relation to the insulin idea because surely when I'm fasting my insulin level is at its lowest and if anything im hypoglycemic (too low blood sugar) from my reading, hypoglycemia forces the release of glucagon and I think this euphoria that I speak about may be part of the chemical process taking place during my low blood sugar level and my bodies reaction. My science is very basic do id appreciate some thoughts from someone more knowledgable. Also when does ketosis occur in relation to glycogen release?

WonderPug
12-08-2013, 10:13 AM
FYI: Protein is highly insulinotropic but dietary fat is not.

More importably, I urge you to meet with a psychiatrist who specializes in the treatment of eating disorders.

jolanar1
12-08-2013, 10:35 AM
Anecdotally, I used to get crazy euphoria when I was anorexic and I'm SURE that the chemical effects were part of the reason why I hung on to the disorder so stubbornly. But I would also get crazy horrible lows after awhile due to starvation and fraying nerves.

Hunger high is dangerous to play around with, and I'm concerned for the OP. Many people don't realize how frequently anorexia can arise not from poor body image but from addiction to the chemical effects of starvation. See this site: http://edbites.com/

I am also concerned because the OP seems to have underlying emotional issues relating to self-confidence. You can find better ways to psych yourself up for social interaction than starving yourself. Please be careful. You must realize that who you are while high on hunger is a false front, and you should NOT have to rely on creating that.

I am not as euphoric/living in magic-land where I feel superhuman anymore... but I am stronger day to day and my moods are now far more EVEN than they were when I was starving.

Oh and yes. Carbs make you happier.

Interesting. Never thought anything like that could be the cause of an eating disorder.

ddjoeyd
12-08-2013, 11:21 AM
Is insulinotropic meaning protein induces the release of insulin as opposed to fat which doesn't.
Because I've realised eating small amounts of coconut oil seems to help stabilise things. .

Regarding the psychiatriast I'm onto it!

cumminslifter
12-08-2013, 03:24 PM
Is insulinotropic meaning protein induces the release of insulin as opposed to fat which doesn't.
Because I've realised eating small amounts of coconut oil seems to help stabilise things. .

Regarding the psychiatriast I'm onto it!
yes

mobilehomepark
12-08-2013, 05:32 PM
I also get sluggish after meals. I am ok after 1 meal without rest(like breakfast) , but after 2 meals without laying down I feel like crap. I meditate after I eat whenever possible. Even 15 minutes helps. If I eat then take a nap I feel very good when I wake up. Hope this helps

EatTrainClean
12-08-2013, 06:39 PM
Hi all,

I am fascinated by Intermittent Fasting and although I am actually under weight if anything I find it incredibly powerful as a way of focusing my mind, feeling more confident, feeling more relaxed, more sociable, my life is actually so much better when I have that feeling of no food in my stomach.

As soon as I eat something I feel sluggish, tired, less interested in socialising, more introverted. It's a really odd but fasting has this very good side effect for me.

I was wondering has anyone else experienced this heightened happiness and confidence and what is the science behind it?

My issue is that I'm starting to rely on it quite heavily as a way of enjoying my social and work life more and it means I'm probably getting more underweight which isnt probably too good. Now I just have a big meal in the evenings so that by the morning I'm feeling good again and I don't eat again until dinner. And I tend to peak around midday-feeling really happy and elated and clear minded

Id really love to hear other people's thoughts on this.


Many thanks

Though others have covered the ED perspective on this (which it sounds like you are walking a fine line on, especially social situation-wise) there are some neurological pathways that can possibly explain this as well. Google the phrase "Low-carb diets, fasting and euphoria: Is there a link between ketosis and gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB)?" and you will find an interesting abstract on this very topic (I am a new member, and I am not allowed to post links yet).

Specifically if you are going into ketosis (50g of carbohydrate or less per day, the Atkins 'induction' phase suggests 20g per day) you should note beta-hydroxybutyrate is one of the ketone bodies produced by your body.

It's funny that you post this though, as just this morning I trained with only 100 calories of omega-6 sourced fats (I normally train after a full breakfast) and I noticed vast improvements in mood and stamina. I'm not normally one to try fasted training, but it is interesting to see the different results produced by your body and brain.

ddjoeyd
12-09-2013, 02:21 PM
I have a question about digestion times because I am aware that in the morning, i still feel very full and, well, I feel like I am still digesting my dinner. I eat at about 8-10pm so makes sense. But I want to know is it a gradual process that we stop using glucose direct from food and start using glycogen stores, surely the two must happen simultaneously as they cross over. And what about ketosis? That must be gradual too so once we get near the end of our glycogen stores we must slowly go into ketosis. I'm just intrigued as it would mean we're never just solely in one process but have both or several going on simultaneously.

Any thoughts?

Its relevant to me because I think i get my feeling of wellness when my body starts coming off its glucose from food stores and starts using glycogen stores. And throughout the glycogen depletion process I feel really good. I think it coincides with my insulin levels being really low at this point. Has anyone heard of anything like feelings of calmness/confidence/positivity during glycogen depletion phase or very low insulin levels? As I work in an office there's very little I do in terms of energy output so I can make it last a good few hours. It may even last into ketosis, I need to experiment. I think basically low insulin makes me feel really good so I want to do what I can to keep my insulin as low as possible often and improve my insulin sensitivity.

EatTrainClean
12-09-2013, 04:31 PM
I have a question about digestion times because I am aware that in the morning, i still feel very full and, well, I feel like I am still digesting my dinner. I eat at about 8-10pm so makes sense. But I want to know is it a gradual process that we stop using glucose direct from food and start using glycogen stores, surely the two must happen simultaneously as they cross over. And what about ketosis? That must be gradual too so once we get near the end of our glycogen stores we must slowly go into ketosis. I'm just intrigued as it would mean we're never just solely in one process but have both or several going on simultaneously.

Any thoughts?

Its relevant to me because I think i get my feeling of wellness when my body starts coming off its glucose from food stores and starts using glycogen stores. And throughout the glycogen depletion process I feel really good. I think it coincides with my insulin levels being really low at this point. Has anyone heard of anything like feelings of calmness/confidence/positivity during glycogen depletion phase or very low insulin levels? As I work in an office there's very little I do in terms of energy output so I can make it last a good few hours. It may even last into ketosis, I need to experiment. I think basically low insulin makes me feel really good so I want to do what I can to keep my insulin as low as possible often and improve my insulin sensitivity.

To answer your first question, yes, it is a gradual process to go from glucose to stored glycogen. That's a whole can of worms right there, but I'll leave it at that.

To answer your second question, ketosis is definitely a gradual process, unless you want to do the Atkins induction phase (20g of carbs) in which case it is pretty swift.

Your body will be using both if you aren't adapted to one fuel source (fat or carbohydrate). You will always need a minimal amount of glucose for brain function (almost your whole body can run off of ketones, but not ALL of it).

I could be wrong here, but I highly doubt you are going into ketosis if you've eaten +50-100g of carbs within the last 24 hours. Biology says that's pretty much impossible.

Here is a paper you can look at, that will show you are not alone on this phenomenon. Google 'Resting energy expenditure in short-term starvation is increased as a result of an increase in serum norepinephrine.'

I've also written on glucagon (what RAISES your blood sugar when blood sugar levels are low) on my website. You can find it in my signature, in the blog section. I've referenced some fascinating studies in that article as well.

Hope this helps!

ddjoeyd
12-10-2013, 11:54 AM
To answer your first question, yes, it is a glevelradual process to go from glucose to stored glycogen. That's a whole can of worms right there, but I'll leave it at that.

To answer your second question, ketosis is definitely a gradual process, unless you want to do the Atkins induction phase (20g of carbs) in which case it is pretty swift.

Your body will be using both if you aren't adapted to one fuel source (fat or carbohydrate). You will always need a minimal amount of glucose for brain function (almost your whole body can run off of ketones, but not ALL of it).

I could be wrong here, but I highly doubt you are going into ketosis if you've eaten +50-100g of carbs within the last 24 hours. Biology says that's pretty much impossible.

Here is a paper you can look at, that will show you are not alone on this phenomenon. Google 'Resting energy expenditure in short-term starvation is increased as a result of an increase in serum norepinephrine.'

I've also written on glucagon (what RAISES your blood sugar when blood sugar levels are low) on my website. You can find it in my signature, in the blog section. I've referenced some fascinating studies in that article as well.

Hope this helps!

Hi eattrainclean,

Thats a great article. I'm presuming energy expenditure means they had more energy? Or they burnt more energy?

Basically it's telling me that what I'm going through is a drop in my blood glucose level during my short fast and a subsequent increase in norepinephrine which I'm guessing creates this feelgood vibe. I'm going to research norepinephrine to see what goes on chemically during that process. ...

But like you say its also coinciding with my dipping into my glycogen stores and nowhere near ketosis.

Its interesting because I get the same feeling when I play football (soccer) which is very intensive aerobic exercise. After I feel the high and alertness. But essentially the same thing is happening which is that my glucose level is dropping, I'm using glycogen I expect and somewhere along the line this norepinephrine is being used. Exercise just speeds everything up!

Thanks!

WonderPug
12-10-2013, 12:00 PM
FYI: If you're "using" liver glycogen stores, it just means that glucose is being released into the blood to maintain the ~8 grams of total circulating glucose.

Jesse_l_g
12-10-2013, 12:07 PM
More importably, I urge you to meet with a psychiatrist who specializes in the treatment of eating disorders.

This was my first thought.

My second thought is food intolerances/allergies. Most people go their entire life eating things that don't agree with them without ever knowing it. You shouldn't feel sluggish and tired after you eat.

WonderPug
12-10-2013, 12:27 PM
You shouldn't feel sluggish and tired after you eat.Sadly, a vast percentage of the American workforce crashes shortly after lunch.

Jesse_l_g
12-10-2013, 12:35 PM
Sadly, a vast percentage of the American workforce crashes shortly after lunch.

Nothing a 5 hour energy shot can't fix.

Mrpb
12-10-2013, 12:45 PM
ddjoeyd, how did you conclude it's the insulin levels and not the blood sugar levels?

Personally I feel fine after eating insulinogenic foods, like a large portion of white fish for example. I can feel lethargic on foods that trigger high blood sugar levels. So for me it's not the insulin levels, it's the high blood sugar level.

ddjoeyd
12-10-2013, 02:23 PM
ddjoeyd, how did you conclude it's the insulin levels and not the blood sugar levels?

Personally I feel fine after eating insulinogenic foods, like a large portion of white fish for example. I can feel lethargic on foods that trigger high blood sugar levels. So for me it's not the insulin levels, it's the high blood sugar level.

Yes you're right, I meant blood sugar level, but surely blood sugar level dictates insulin level?

EatTrainClean
12-10-2013, 04:07 PM
@ddjoeyd

Energy expenditure is how much energy you are expending (using). Energy deficit would be you expending more energy than you are taking in (some refer to this as a 'negative energy balance').

An interesting paper to read is entitled 'Thermodynamics of weight loss diets'. Though this study comes to the conclusion that varying macronutrient proportions as well as being in a negative energy balance will result in improved fat loss. This is debatable, to say the least.

Norepinephrine is structurally very similar to dopamine, and it causes stored glycogen to be released.

Ketosis is one of those things where it is so stressful/memorable, that once you've experienced it, you won't really get it confused with anything else. Unless you enter into it so gradually that you barely notice it, it's a pretty big shift, chemically, and your brain won't like it (especially at first).

Re: your soccer-playing, that's in slang terms called a 'runner's high'. What's happening there, is the release of endorphins, due to using up your glycogen stores. Obviously you can begin to see that endorphins and norepinephrine are linked. Another good paper to read: 'β-Endorphin-induced increases in plasma epinephrine, norepinephrine and dopamine in rats: inhibition of adrenomedullary response by intracerebral somatostatin'.

Re: blood sugar level dictating insulin level...if you are NOT metabolically deranged, then yes. Leptin is another overlooked hormone to check out, regarding obesity and insulin-resistance. Leptin resistance always seems to be present in insulin resistant individuals, but it is not always the other way around. Google 'Leptin deficiency per se dictates body composition and insulin action in ob/ob mice' for a good read.

Hopefully this helps?

Mrpb
12-10-2013, 11:30 PM
Yes you're right, I meant blood sugar level, but surely blood sugar level dictates insulin level?

No, some foods trigger a signficant insulin response while barely raising blood sugar. Check out this study for examples: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2011/02/15/ajcn.110.005033.full.pdf+html

EatTrainClean
12-11-2013, 04:16 AM
No, some foods trigger a signficant insulin response while barely raising blood sugar. Check out this study for examples...

Thanks for this paper! Key quote, to me: "Carbohydrate content alone predicted the glucose and insulin responses to single foods (P , 0.001) but not to mixed meals."

Mrpb
12-11-2013, 09:12 AM
Thanks for this paper! Key quote, to me: "Carbohydrate content alone predicted the glucose and insulin responses to single foods (P , 0.001) but not to mixed meals."

Quoting just that one sentence without context could possibly be misleading to people who haven't read the study.

For example, even foods without any carbohydrates can trigger significant insulin responses.

EatTrainClean
12-11-2013, 10:06 AM
Quoting just that one sentence without context could possibly be misleading to people who haven't read the study.

For example, even foods without any carbohydrates can trigger significant insulin responses.

Correct, but since that was the last sentence of the 'results' portion of the study, I thought that may help people who didn't want to read the entire thing? Not sure what we are disagreeing on here? And yes people forget that protein creates an insulin response (steak has 0 carbs but releases insulin, for example).

Mrpb
12-11-2013, 10:23 AM
Correct, but since that was the last sentence of the 'results' portion of the study, I thought that may help people who didn't want to read the entire thing? Not sure what we are disagreeing on here? And yes people forget that protein creates an insulin response (steak has 0 carbs but releases insulin, for example).

I don't think we are disagreeing. I just think it's so easy to misinterpret a sentence like that.

For example: if I would read "Carbohydrate content alone predicted the glucose and insulin responses to single foods" I would think that bread and pasta with equal carbohydrate contents would have equal glucose and insulin responses. While the study shows there are quite large differences.

EatTrainClean
12-11-2013, 04:34 PM
I don't think we are disagreeing. I just think it's so easy to misinterpret a sentence like that.

For example: if I would read "Carbohydrate content alone predicted the glucose and insulin responses to single foods" I would think that bread and pasta with equal carbohydrate contents would have equal glucose and insulin responses. While the study shows there are quite large differences.

Ah okay, got ya. Thanks for clarifying.

ddjoeyd
12-12-2013, 05:55 PM
ddjoeyd, how did you conclude it's the insulin levels and not the blood sugar levels?

Personally I feel fine after eating insulinogenic foods, like a large portion of white fish for example. I can feel lethargic on foods that trigger high blood sugar levels. So for me it's not the insulin levels, it's the high blood sugar level.

I'm really confused now. So foods with a 0 gi (such as white fish) will induce insulin release? How does this work? If there's no raising of the BSL why does insulin get released? Sorry if this is basic!

cumminslifter
12-12-2013, 06:00 PM
I'm really confused now. So foods with a 0 gi (such as white fish) will induce insulin release? How does this work? If there's no raising of the BSL why does insulin get released? Sorry if this is basic!http://suppversity.blogspot.com/search?q=whey+insulin

ddjoeyd
12-15-2013, 03:49 AM
That article didn't make a huge amount of sense to me if I'm honest.

Is there a list, almost like the GI index, which lists foods according to their insulinogenic value?

Mrpb
12-15-2013, 04:00 AM
Joey check out the study I posted earlier. You can see exactly how foods influence blood sugar and insulin.

Gxp23
12-15-2013, 04:04 AM
Why are we getting all worked up on insulin release? Its not that big a deal.

cumminslifter
12-15-2013, 08:23 AM
That article didn't make a huge amount of sense to me if I'm honest.

Is there a list, almost like the GI index, which lists foods according to their insulinogenic value?what was confusing about it? why are you so worried anyway?

Lvisaa2
12-15-2013, 08:43 AM
Why are we getting all worked up on insulin release? Its not that big a deal.

To body composition it is not, but other effects of insulin, especially in those who may have insulin issues, can be significant for well-being.

Gxp23
12-15-2013, 08:47 AM
To body composition it is not, but other effects of insulin, especially in those who may have insulin issues, can be significant for well-being.

I checked back the last page, didn't notice anything/anyone with said issues, was there? Too used to it being the same old.

Lvisaa2
12-15-2013, 09:07 AM
I checked back the last page, didn't notice anything/anyone with said issues, was there? Too used to it being the same old.

He doesn't have any stated insulin issues, but that doesn't mean there aren't issues. Especially in the context of the conversation, I don't think you can assume that insulin isn't a big deal.

Gxp23
12-15-2013, 09:34 AM
He doesn't have any stated insulin issues, but that doesn't mean there aren't issues. Especially in the context of the conversation, I don't think you can assume that insulin isn't a big deal.
I would prefer it if the Op did have any insulin related issues to put it in the post rather than now then :/, and it was towards body composition, like I said, too used to it being the same old.

Lvisaa2
12-15-2013, 11:41 AM
I would prefer it if the Op did have any insulin related issues to put it in the post rather than now then :/, and it was towards body composition, like I said, too used to it being the same old.

That would require he knows. I think I have some insulin issues due to my own reactions and my family's history, but I have no diagnosis.

Gxp23
12-15-2013, 01:16 PM
That would require he knows. I think I have some insulin issues due to my own reactions and my family's history, but I have no diagnosis.

ok cool.

gal8914
12-15-2013, 01:56 PM
i dont have much knowledge but this look like the beginning of an eating disorder