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schnauzers
11-14-2013, 10:11 AM
I'm not sure I ununderstand why people would choose a keto diet over a mixed food diet when their goal is fat loss. If all that matters is a calorie deficit at the end of the day, and you don't have to be in ketosis to lose fat, why bother with keto?

I tried poking around the keto section and I'm reading things about insulin, being able to eat whatever you want as long as you stay in ketosis (which doesn't make sense calorie deficit wise), and things about 'net' carbs :confused:

Personally, I wouldn't choose to eliminate carbs if it doesn't make fat loss easier/quicker. So what's the big deal with keto anyway?

WonderPug
11-14-2013, 10:18 AM
For those with certain medical conditions, such as metabolic syndrome, there might be a meaningful advantage to nutritional ketosis.

For health individuals who engage in vigorous exercise, it's likely a function of individual preference.

For those inbetween, the jury is still out but there is some interesting research on the subject.

More specifically, there have been 18 relatively recent RCT's comparing low carb to other diet protocol, with all such studies that I'm aware of showing at least some advantage for low carb protocols as follows:




Shai I, et al. Weight loss with a low-carbohydrate, mediterranean, or low-fat diet. N Engl J Med 2008;359(3);229–41.

Gardner CD, et al. Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and learn Diets for Change in Weight and Related Risk Factors Among Overweight Premenopausal Women. The a to z Weight Loss Study: A Randomized Trial. JAMA. 2007;297:969–977.

Brehm BJ, et al. A Randomized Trial Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2003;88:1617–1623.

Samaha FF, et al. A Low-Carbohydrate as Compared with a Low-Fat Diet in Severe Obesity. N Engl J Med 2003;348:2074–81.

Sondike SB, et al. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor in overweight adolescents. J Pediatr. 2003 Mar;142(3):253–8.

Aude YW, et al. The National Cholesterol Education Program Diet vs a Diet Lower in Carbohydrates and Higher in Protein and Monounsaturated Fat. A Randomized Trial. Arch Intern Med. 2004;164:2141–2146.

Volek JS, et al. Comparison of energy-restricted very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets on weight loss and body composition in overweight men and women. Nutrition & Metabolism 2004, 1:13.

Yancy WS Jr, et al. A Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet versus a Low-Fat Diet To Treat Obesity and Hyperlipidemia. A Randomized, Controlled Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004;140:769–777.

Nichols-Richardsson SM, et al. Perceived Hunger Is Lower and Weight Loss Is Greater in Overweight Premenopausal Women Consuming a Low-Carbohydrate/High- Protein vs High-Carbohydrate/Low-Fat Diet. J Am Diet Assoc. 2005;105:1433–1437.

Krebs NF, et al. Efficacy and Safety of a High Protein, Low Carbohydrate Diet for Weight Loss in Severely Obese Adolescents. J Pediatr 2010;157:252-8.

Summer SS, et al. Adiponectin Changes in Relation to the Macronutrient Composition of a Weight-Loss Diet. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2011 Mar 31. [Epub ahead of print]

Halyburton AK, et al. Low- and high-carbohydrate weight-loss diets have similar effects on mood but not cognitive performance. Am J Clin Nutr 2007;86:580–7.

Dyson PA, et al. A low-carbohydrate diet is more effective in reducing body weight than healthy eating in both diabetic and non-diabetic subjects. Diabet Med. 2007 Dec;24(12):1430-5.

Keogh JB, et al. Effects of weight loss from a very-low-carbohydrate diet on endothelial function and markers of cardiovascular disease risk in subjects with abdominal obesity. Am J Clin Nutr 2008;87:567–76.

Volek JS, et al. Carbohydrate Restriction has a More Favorable Impact on the Metabolic Syndrome than a Low Fat Diet. Lipids 2009;44:297–309.

Partsalaki I, et al. Metabolic impact of a ketogenic diet compared to a hypocaloric diet in obese children and adolescents. J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2012;25(7-8):697-704.

Daly ME, et al. Short-term effects of severe dietary carbohydrate-restriction advice in Type 2 diabetes–a randomized controlled trial. Diabet Med. 2006 Jan;23(1):15–20.

Westman EC, et al. The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low- glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus. Nutr. Metab (Lond.)2008 Dec 19;5:36.

schnauzers
11-14-2013, 10:29 AM
Thanks.

I don't have access to journals and I'm not trained to evaluate them. But I wish I could!

Do the studies show that people lose fat quicker/or lose more fat on a keto diet vs non keto diet even with the same cutting calories? For example, if someone's cutting at 2000 calories, would the results differ whether they follow keto or not (but still eat just 2000 calories)? I'm thinking more about people who still like to eat carbs and don't have a medical condition.

If the calories can be higher on a keto diet, does that mean that it's not calories in/out that matter when other factors are controlled instead (ie carb intake)?

Thanks for your input.

BeeKay90
11-14-2013, 11:03 AM
I'm not sure I ununderstand why people would choose a keto diet over a mixed food diet when their goal is fat loss. If all that matters is a calorie deficit at the end of the day, and you don't have to be in ketosis to lose fat, why bother with keto?

I tried poking around the keto section and I'm reading things about insulin, being able to eat whatever you want as long as you stay in ketosis (which doesn't make sense calorie deficit wise), and things about 'net' carbs :confused:

Personally, I wouldn't choose to eliminate carbs if it doesn't make fat loss easier/quicker. So what's the big deal with keto anyway?

I had EXACTLY the same question a while ago because I was going on holiday for the summer and had a month to lose fat fast. I was told by everyone that ultimately it comes down to calories in and calories used. So forget keto, because as long as you're in a calorie deficit you'll lose weight.

So I tried both methods out. With Keto I lost weight super super fast, but I was struggling at the gym with my workouts due to tiredness, and I had no energy during the day. My mood was terrible, I was always angry and depressed, and I was having to sleep during the day because of the lack of energy lol.

So then I tried the other method....eating carbs normally, but just keeping to a calorie deficit. And to my amazement it also worked. I had my energy back, workouts in the gym were back to normal, and I was still sticking to my weight goals. So from MY personal experience, it all comes down to calorie deficit. Forget keto, it is too extreme. The only thing I would recommend it for is a super short-term event. For example if you are going to a beach in a few weeks and need to lose fat really really fast. But even then, the fat loss will be temporary and difficult to maintain.

rhadam
11-14-2013, 11:22 AM
I've read the studies. The easiest way to explain is that via clinicals, keto has more rapid weight loss than a traditional diet, but over time, both diets even out. Traditional meaning balanced macros, caloric deficit. Keto meaning low to no carbs and a caloric deficit.

schnauzers
11-14-2013, 01:53 PM
I had EXACTLY the same question a while ago because I was going on holiday for the summer and had a month to lose fat fast. I was told by everyone that ultimately it comes down to calories in and calories used. So forget keto, because as long as you're in a calorie deficit you'll lose weight.

So I tried both methods out. With Keto I lost weight super super fast, but I was struggling at the gym with my workouts due to tiredness, and I had no energy during the day. My mood was terrible, I was always angry and depressed, and I was having to sleep during the day because of the lack of energy lol.

So then I tried the other method....eating carbs normally, but just keeping to a calorie deficit. And to my amazement it also worked. I had my energy back, workouts in the gym were back to normal, and I was still sticking to my weight goals. So from MY personal experience, it all comes down to calorie deficit. Forget keto, it is too extreme. The only thing I would recommend it for is a super short-term event. For example if you are going to a beach in a few weeks and need to lose fat really really fast. But even then, the fat loss will be temporary and difficult to maintain.

Interesting self experiment :) How long did you try each method?


I've read the studies. The easiest way to explain is that via clinicals, keto has more rapid weight loss than a traditional diet, but over time, both diets even out. Traditional meaning balanced macros, caloric deficit. Keto meaning low to no carbs and a caloric deficit.

Ok, thanks :) What causes the more rapid fat loss with keto (before they start to even out)?

WonderPug
11-14-2013, 01:55 PM
I've read the studies. The easiest way to explain is that via clinicals, keto has more rapid weight loss than a traditional diet, but over time, both diets even out. Traditional meaning balanced macros, caloric deficit. Keto meaning low to no carbs and a caloric deficit.Convergence is thought to be a function of reduced compliance over time, as it happens with all diets.



FYI for BeeKay90: I have dramatically improved energy and performance on a properly composed ketogenic diet than on a rationally composed traditional macronutrient diet, but full adaptation can take weeks or even months.

BeeKay90
11-14-2013, 02:18 PM
Convergence is thought to be a function of reduced compliance over time, as it happens with all diets.



FYI for BeeKay90: I have dramatically improved energy and performance on a properly composed ketogenic diet than on a rationally composed traditional macronutrient diet, but full adaptation can take weeks or even months.

Yes I've heard it takes a while to adapt to a keto diet. But personally I don't see the point. If the end product (fat loss) is going to be the same for both keto diet and a traditional calorie deficit diet, then I would rather eat carbs and just make sure I'm in deficit to lose fat (while watching macros). I see carbs as my body's preferred source of energy, carbs boost the quality of my workouts immensely. My thinking is "If I'm losing weight while eating carbs, and my workouts feel great, I have energy, and I'm managing to stay in a calorie deficit while sticking to macros, then why on earth would I change to a keto?" If it aint broke don't fix it mentality. Of course this is all on personal experience, not saying everyone will react the same to keto/traditional macronutrient deficit diet.

InItForFitness
11-14-2013, 02:21 PM
Ok, thanks :) What causes the more rapid fat loss with keto (before they start to even out)?

(Correct me if I'm wrong Pug or Rhadam)
I do believe its the principle that your body is now using fat as it's primary source of energy since carbohydrate intake is restricted.

BeeKay90
11-14-2013, 02:26 PM
[QUOTE=schnauzers;1163432523]Interesting self experiment :) How long did you try each method?


I've tried keto a few times on and off. The longest I ever tried it continuously was a month, and I was close to passing out every time it hit 3pm. Started getting in the way of work and life. I tried it again for the summer for just a couple of weeks, same result. Of course this is just personal experience, so I'm not going to generalise. But it does make sense if you think about it. Carbs are naturally our body's preferred energy source, why cut them out and make the body adapt if we can achieve weight loss goals through a standard deficit diet.

Having said all that, I will always use keto for fast short-term results (e.g. 2 weeks to lose a lot of fat). Never as a long term solution though.

WonderPug
11-14-2013, 02:33 PM
(Correct me if I'm wrong Pug or Rhadam)
I do believe its the principle that your body is now using fat as it's primary source of energy since carbohydrate intake is restricted.When fully adapted, energy substrate utilization is altered from primarily glucose to primarily ketones.

The Running Man
11-14-2013, 02:35 PM
Apart from the specific medical conditions mentioned by Pug that might benefit from a ketogenic diet, some people will simply feel better. Response to carbohydrate can be highly individualistic, and that's why you see anecdotal reports on this forum from all ends of the spectrum, in much the same way as you see varying reports on training fed vs fasted.

There may also be some performance benefits on the ultra-endurance side of things.

schnauzers
11-14-2013, 02:40 PM
When fully adapted, energy substrate utilization is altered from primarily glucose to primarily ketones.

Sorry to sound so simple but what does that actually mean? :o Does fully adapted mean once in ketosis? I have no idea what the second part means.

SuffolkPunch
11-14-2013, 02:45 PM
As I tried to explain in your other thread, you can more readily utilise stored body fat as energy instead of being dependent on carbohydrates which is a much smaller store and more subject to fluctuations in supply.

WonderPug
11-14-2013, 02:50 PM
Sorry to sound so simple but what does that actually mean? :o Does fully adapted mean once in ketosis? I have no idea what the second part means.See SuffolkPunch's reply above.

DCuddies
11-14-2013, 02:55 PM
Interesting self experiment :) How long did you try each method?


I've tried keto a few times on and off. The longest I ever tried it continuously was a month, and I was close to passing out every time it hit 3pm. Started getting in the way of work and life. I tried it again for the summer for just a couple of weeks, same result. Of course this is just personal experience, so I'm not going to generalise. But it does make sense if you think about it. Carbs are naturally our body's preferred energy source, why cut them out and make the body adapt if we can achieve weight loss goals through a standard deficit diet.

Having said all that, I will always use keto for fast short-term results (e.g. 2 weeks to lose a lot of fat). Never as a long term solution though.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but you're making a lot of definite statements with nothing other than anecdotal evidence to back it up.

Working out hard on a standard keto diet is going to be terrible, just like you experienced. First, because it takes 3-4 weeks to become adapted, but also of course because you need some glycogen for most workouts. You should really look into a cyclical or targeted ketogenic diet, which basically involve timing carbohydrates so that you stay in ketosis most of the time.

xJellyBirdx
11-14-2013, 03:00 PM
Fully adapted means your metabolic pathways have switched over. There are a ton of claims associated with keto which tends to be the biggest reason people attempt keto.

I feel like I have more energy throughout the day, clarity, great aerobic performance, etc.

A lot of people like to think of keto like 400g of glycogen for energy vs thousands of calories in body fat for energy.

WonderPug
11-14-2013, 03:05 PM
I'm not trying to be a dick, but you're making a lot of definite statements with nothing other than anecdotal evidence to back it up.

Working out hard on a standard keto diet is going to be terrible, just like you experienced. First, because it takes 3-4 weeks to become adapted, but also of course because you need some glycogen for most workouts. You should really look into a cyclical or targeted ketogenic diet, which basically involve timing carbohydrates so that you stay in ketosis most of the time.Ugh. Just ugh.

I urge the OP to ignore the above quoted post, as a CKD or TKD largely negate the metabolic effects of a properly composed ketogenic diet and, also, performance can be equal, better or worse on a ketogenic diet compared to a more traditional carb dominante diet depending on individual response.

schnauzers
11-14-2013, 03:11 PM
As I tried to explain in your other thread, you can more readily utilise stored body fat as energy instead of being dependent on carbohydrates which is a much smaller store and more subject to fluctuations in supply.

Sorry for the coincidence in the two posts. I'm not actually considering a keto diet. I started this thread based on another discussion I heard recently about someone recommending a keto diet to someone who wanted to lose weight quickly.

I don't want to lose any weight/fat right now. I'm actively trying to gain.


Ugh. Just ugh.

I urge the OP to ignore the above quoted post, as a CKD or TKD largely negate the metabolic effects of a properly composed ketogenic diet and, also, performance can be equal, better or worse on a ketogenic diet compared to a more traditional carb dominante diet depending on individual response.

Lol, ok. :)

DCuddies
11-14-2013, 03:12 PM
Ugh. Just ugh.

I urge the OP to ignore the above quoted post, as a CKD or TKD largely negate the metabolic effects of a properly composed ketogenic diet and, also, performance can be equal, better or worse on a ketogenic diet compared to a more traditional carb dominante diet depending on individual response.

I'm as much a proponent of ketogenic diets as the next guy, but performance in glycogen dominated activities (as most workouts are) suffers.

SuffolkPunch
11-14-2013, 11:17 PM
Sorry for the coincidence in the two posts. I'm not actually considering a keto diet. I started this thread based on another discussion I heard recently about someone recommending a keto diet to someone who wanted to lose weight quickly.

I don't want to lose any weight/fat right now. I'm actively trying to gain.



That's a shame since I think it would solve the problems you described in your other thread.

BTW you don't need to be losing weight to be in ketosis, you just need to limit carbs to almost nothing and keep protein down to the minimum essential amount required (say under 1g per lb of LBM)

BeeKay90
11-14-2013, 11:28 PM
I'm not trying to be a dick, but you're making a lot of definite statements with nothing other than anecdotal evidence to back it up.

Working out hard on a standard keto diet is going to be terrible, just like you experienced. First, because it takes 3-4 weeks to become adapted, but also of course because you need some glycogen for most workouts. You should really look into a cyclical or targeted ketogenic diet, which basically involve timing carbohydrates so that you stay in ketosis most of the time.

Like I've said over and over, this is just MY EXPERIENCE and opinion. By no means am I saying it is scientific. However low energy levels at the start of a keto diet is something I've read is normal anyway. At the end of the day I will not cut out carbs if I can achieve all of my weight/workout goals with carbs included. What would be the point

Womble619
11-14-2013, 11:35 PM
the answer to OP's question is simple, no idea why everyone making it so complex.

Why choose keto diet over non keto diet?

if carbs make you feel tired, sleepy and groggy then you are gonna do better on a keto diet. Poor insulin secretion tends to be the cause of this (so many diabetics will do better on a keto diet).. all this other fluff about burning fat quicker and all dat chit is pointless.. if you stop taking carbs when you feel good on carbs just coz you wanna burn extra weight, then your gym performance is gonna suffer and will be very suboptimal.. that is not a good trade off just for a few extra pounds off a few weeks earlier..