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View Full Version : Protein vs Wroking HArd and the Balance of Both?



luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 11:47 AM
Bill is 33 years old. He weighs 145 lbs. He focuses on his arms and abs, every other day. He literally destroys his arms and abs every time he goes. His exertion is about a 9-10 out of 10. He doesn't focus on protein and eats a regular diet (mainly vegetarian) that probably has too much carbs. He eats 2500 cals a day.

Joe is 33 years old. He weighs 145 lbs. He focuses on his arms and abs, every other day. He exerts about a 6/10 when he works out. Its rather minimal. Unlike Bill, he focuses on getting a large amount of protein a day via supplements such as shakes. He eats 2500 cals a day.


These men are identical twins and have the same genetic makeup.

Who would get bigger muscles?

sdunn96
11-06-2013, 11:49 AM
whichever one starts squatting.

InItForFitness
11-06-2013, 11:51 AM
Bill & Joe both sound like they're gym idiots on the way to muscular imbalance.

Markwhit
11-06-2013, 11:53 AM
Who cares they both diks

ChaoticReignPbt
11-06-2013, 11:57 AM
Who cares, they're both going to look like **** only training arms and abs.

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 11:57 AM
Im just trying to get your opinion on muscle gain. Not this routine. It is a fictional routine. Trying to figure out balance on protein and exertion. That is all.

MrBillson
11-06-2013, 12:04 PM
Im just trying to get your opinion on muscle gain. Not this routine. It is a fictional routine. Trying to figure out balance on protein and exertion. That is all.

If you don't eat right, you can't gain muscle. Simple as that.

A bit of beginner recomp maybe (if he's got a bit of fat on him), but muscle has to be made out of something. And that something is food (not just protein, mind)

Markwhit
11-06-2013, 12:05 PM
Equally important both need to be right for you to gain. Do not prioritise one over the other. Well having said that I'll go out on a limb and say the nutritional side is of slightly greater importance. Is kind of like what came first chicken of egg tho!!

sdunn96
11-06-2013, 12:05 PM
Depends on your goals
If your diet and macros are right, and consuming what you should be.
And your desire is to add on muscle.....your goal in the gym should be to go heavier weights, lower reps.

rhadam
11-06-2013, 12:06 PM
Given the same total calories taken in the person exerting more effort in the gym will make more progress. Protein is not the sole determiner of muscle gain. Overall calories plays a large role as obviously does intensity.

cumminslifter
11-06-2013, 12:30 PM
why not eat sufficient protein and exert yourself maximally?

WonderPug
11-06-2013, 12:31 PM
Larry.

Huckleberry101
11-06-2013, 12:46 PM
Depends on your goals
If your diet and macros are right, and consuming what you should be.
And your desire is to add on muscle.....your goal in the gym should be to go heavier weights, lower reps.

Not necessarily. Higher reps are also effective at eliciting muscle growth.

Huckleberry101
11-06-2013, 12:48 PM
Bill is 33 years old. He weighs 145 lbs. He focuses on his arms and abs, every other day. He literally destroys his arms and abs every time he goes. His exertion is about a 9-10 out of 10. He doesn't focus on protein and eats a regular diet (mainly vegetarian) that probably has too much carbs. He eats 2500 cals a day.

Joe is 33 years old. He weighs 145 lbs. He focuses on his arms and abs, every other day. He exerts about a 6/10 when he works out. Its rather minimal. Unlike Bill, he focuses on getting a large amount of protein a day via supplements such as shakes. He eats 2500 cals a day.


These men are identical twins and have the same genetic makeup.

Who would get bigger muscles?

What do you mean by regular diet? Define regular? If you're getting enough energy and your workouts are sufficient to stimulate MPS then you should grow.

Lvisaa2
11-06-2013, 12:57 PM
This situation is stupid. Working out, nutrition, etc. - it all works together synergistically. Trying to break it down to sectors or aspects is impossible. Train right and eat right for your goals. If you want to look okay with your shirt off then go to the gym some, eat semi-okay, and you'll get there. If you want to actually be impressive then you need to put in more work in both aspects.

sdunn96
11-06-2013, 01:04 PM
Not necessarily. Higher reps are also effective at eliciting muscle growth.

Higher reps are effective at building a bigger store for glycogen.....and some definition.
But most studies, point to low rep, high weight for actually building muscle. (getting stronger)

MrBillson
11-06-2013, 01:06 PM
Higher reps are effective at building a bigger store for glycogen.....and some definition.
But most studies, point to low rep, high weight for actually building muscle. (getting stronger)

Hypertrophy training =/= strength training

Also there is no rep range which will 'build definition'. Definition increases as fat percentage reduces.

sdunn96
11-06-2013, 01:09 PM
Hypertrophy training =/= strength training



Does not??
Explain please.

sdunn96
11-06-2013, 01:14 PM
Also there is no rep range which will 'build definition'. Definition increases as fat percentage reduces.


My thinking was that by increased reps, would result in more calories being burnt, so more fat being burnt......

cumminslifter
11-06-2013, 01:15 PM
Does not??
Explain please.strength is highly dependent on the CNS

sdunn96
11-06-2013, 01:19 PM
strength is highly dependent on the CNS

So what is the better chance of me increasing strength?
Doing bench press of 135 lbs for 15 reps x 4
Or doing bench press of 225 for ~5 reps x 4 (maybe going up 5 lbs each set)?

MrBillson
11-06-2013, 01:20 PM
Does not??
Explain please.

1 rep max training (or close to 1 rep max) will not lead to as optimal gains in size and lighter weight with slightly more reps. Of course size gains will occur with strength training, but it's not the optimal way to train for size.

MrBillson
11-06-2013, 01:21 PM
My thinking was that by increased reps, would result in more calories being burnt, so more fat being burnt......

So what you mean is that an energy deficit would lead to greater definition.

High reps may be the means by which you choose to achieve an energy deficit, but it's not the high reps creating the definition.

MrBillson
11-06-2013, 01:22 PM
So what is the better chance of me increasing strength?
Doing bench press of 135 lbs for 15 reps x 4
Or doing bench press of 225 for ~5 reps x 4 (maybe going up 5 lbs each set)?

For strength I wouldn't recommend using a weight you can do more than 5 reps on.

cumminslifter
11-06-2013, 01:37 PM
So what is the better chance of me increasing strength?
Doing bench press of 135 lbs for 15 reps x 4
Or doing bench press of 225 for ~5 reps x 4 (maybe going up 5 lbs each set)?the second one for sure

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 01:40 PM
Thanks for everyone's responses.

I am the guy "Joe" who does the less working out. I push myself to about a 6/10 at the msot. But I do exercise quite habitually.

I recently thought I'd bring protein supplements into my diet. When telling my friend this, he said it would not be effective since I am not pushing myself to my fullest. I just wanted everyones opinions on this.

MrBillson
11-06-2013, 01:59 PM
Thanks for everyone's responses.

I am the guy "Joe" who does the less working out. I push myself to about a 6/10 at the msot. But I do exercise quite habitually.

I recently thought I'd bring protein supplements into my diet. When telling my friend this, he said it would not be effective since I am not pushing myself to my fullest. I just wanted everyones opinions on this.

Well the only thing protein supplements will certainly help with is reducing the weight of your wallet.

Why not simply compose a rational diet made of real food which you enjoy?

pondman
11-06-2013, 02:05 PM
Im just trying to get your opinion on muscle gain. Not this routine. It is a fictional routine. Trying to figure out balance on protein and exertion. That is all.


Protein in itself won't give you bigger muscles.

When you workout, your muscle fibers are damaged. The protein helps repair the muscle fibers. But it's going to depend on your workout. For example, the US National Female X- country champion admits to using about 75 grams of whey protein a day. The protein help her recover quickly from running 85 miles per week. But she only weighs about 115 lbs. The protein helps her repair, maintain, and build the type of muscle fiber she needs.

I also know a 20 year old line man for a PAC 12 team, who quit football for baseball. He stopped heavy lifting and started rowing. He went from 325 lbs to 215 lbs, while consuming 120 grams of whey protein. He went from being a huge guy, to a tall lean guy in about a year, and has worked on developing the muscle needed for baseball.

Your consumption of protein is only relative to the type of activities and goals you are trying to achieve. If you want mass then you've got to go real heavy, beyond what the average gym person is willing to do, and hopefully you have the genetic disposition to look good. Not everyone can do it! Plus you'll need to load up on protein, beyond what most people will do.

cumminslifter
11-06-2013, 02:06 PM
Thanks for everyone's responses.

I am the guy "Joe" who does the less working out. I push myself to about a 6/10 at the msot. But I do exercise quite habitually.

I recently thought I'd bring protein supplements into my diet. When telling my friend this, he said it would not be effective since I am not pushing myself to my fullest. I just wanted everyones opinions on this.why not push yourself harder?

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 02:08 PM
I realize protein isn't going to give me magic muscles.

But I guess your response summarizes more of what I am asking -- how does one know mcuh how protein to take in regards to the amount of exertion.


Protein in itself won't give you bigger muscles.

When you workout, your muscle fibers are damaged. The protein helps repair the muscle fibers. But it's going to depend on your workout. For example, the US National Female X- country champion admits to using about 75 grams of whey protein a day. The protein help her recover quickly from running 85 miles per week. But she only weighs about 115 lbs. The protein helps her repair, maintain, and build the type of muscle fiber she needs.

I also know a 20 year old line man for a PAC 12 team, who quit football for baseball. He stopped heavy lifting and started rowing. He went from 325 lbs to 215 lbs, while consuming 120 grams of whey protein. He went from being a huge guy, to a tall lean guy in about a year, and has worked on developing the muscle needed for baseball.

Your consumption of protein is only relative to the type of activities and goals you are trying to achieve. If you want mass then you've got to go real heavy, beyond what the average gym person is willing to do, and hopefully you have the genetic disposition to look good. Not everyone can do it!

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 02:11 PM
why not push yourself harder?

Because I do not enjoy the gym. I do it habitually but I race thru it. I dont enjoy it. I respect bodybuilding but its not my thing. I excel in other areas of my life.

My side of the argument with my friend was taht diet is incredibly important, and you can get DECENT results with moderate efforts and good protein intake. His side is that no results come at all until you push yuorself to extremes, and that diet is 5% of it.

I guess my main question is:

With my current half-ass routine, if I take protein will it do any good as far as muscular development? Or is it a waste of time due to my minimal workout efforts.

InItForFitness
11-06-2013, 02:14 PM
Because I do not enjoy the gym. I do it habitually but I race thru it. I dont enjoy it. I respect bodybuilding but its not my thing. I excel in other areas of my life.

My side of the argument with my friend was taht diet is incredibly important, and you can get DECENT results with moderate efforts and good protein intake. His side is that no results come at all until you push yuorself to extremes, and that diet is 5% of it.

You're both wrong.

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 02:16 PM
You're both wrong.
Thanks bud.

cumminslifter
11-06-2013, 02:17 PM
Because I do not enjoy the gym. I do it habitually but I race thru it. I dont enjoy it. I respect bodybuilding but its not my thing. I excel in other areas of my life.

My side of the argument with my friend was taht diet is incredibly important, and you can get DECENT results with moderate efforts and good protein intake. His side is that no results come at all until you push yuorself to extremes, and that diet is 5% of it.

I guess my main question is:

With my current half-ass routine, if I take protein will it do any good as far as muscular development? Or is it a waste of time due to my minimal workout efforts.why even bother then?

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 02:20 PM
Why bother with what?

Protein?

Perhaps its indeed useless at this point. That is why I am asking this.

tara19
11-06-2013, 02:20 PM
Find something you do enjoy?
Boxing?
Ju jit sui?
Tennis?
Soccer?
Swimming?
Yoga?

Why do something that you don't enjoy...
Seems stupid.

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 02:22 PM
I do enjoy it, for stress release, well being, and for the moderate results I've received in the gym.

But I certainly do not love working out. I usually race thru it.


Find something you do enjoy?
Boxing?
Ju jit sui?
Tennis?
Soccer?
Swimming?
Yoga?

Why do something that you don't enjoy...
Seems stupid.

cumminslifter
11-06-2013, 02:24 PM
Why bother with what?

Protein?

Perhaps its indeed useless at this point. That is why I am asking this.no, going to the gym

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 02:27 PM
So are you saying no results occur at all unless you're DESTROYING yourself every time you go to the gym?

I guess this is kind of the debate I am having.

I kinda think massively exerting yourself seems overrated, and that diet is underrated. You see, it seems everyone wants to always appear that they totally bust their ass. Our culture loves to talk about the miles they run, the long hours they work, etc. But a lot of success in life is about being good enough.

But perhaps I am wrong. That is why I posted this thread.



no, going to the gym

cumminslifter
11-06-2013, 02:32 PM
So are you saying no results occur at all unless you're DESTROYING yourself every time you go to the gym?

I guess this is kind of the debate I am having.

I kinda think massively exerting yourself seems overrated, and that diet is underrated. You see, it seems everyone wants to always appear that they totally bust their ass. Our culture loves to talk about the miles they run, the long hours they work, etc. But a lot of success in life is about being good enough.

But perhaps I am wrong. That is why I posted this thread.no you still will see some results, to a point anyway. all i am saying is why even bother lifting if you dont enjoy it and you half ass it

bradroche
11-06-2013, 02:36 PM
i think Joe gets just as strong but Bill probably ends up with more muscle growth. Agree with most though that neither are going far with it after the newb gains.

sambshep
11-06-2013, 02:36 PM
Larry.
Reps on spread.

@OP - I seem to be getting the impression that your friend thinks nutrition means nothing and it's all about the workout, while you seem to be hoping that lots of protein with minimal effort in the gym will give you large muscles. Your friend is incorrect and your hopes are simply a pipe dream. A certain amount of effort is required in the gym to stimulate growth, but your workouts cant compensate for poor nutrition either.

Eating in a caloric excess, with adequate dietary fat and protein, while exercising at a moderate or intense level, will promote muscle growth.

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 02:51 PM
Thanks
Good answer.

So is protein a waste of time at my point? 100% waste of time and money?
That is all I am wondering now.



Reps on spread.

@OP - I seem to be getting the impression that your friend thinks nutrition means nothing and it's all about the workout, while you seem to be hoping that lots of protein with minimal effort in the gym will give you large muscles. Your friend is incorrect and your hopes are simply a pipe dream. A certain amount of effort is required in the gym to stimulate growth, but your workouts cant compensate for poor nutrition either.

Eating in a caloric excess, with adequate dietary fat and protein, while exercising at a moderate or intense level, will promote muscle growth.

rhadam
11-06-2013, 02:56 PM
How can protein be a waste of time when it's a vital macronutrient? You have to ingest protein to function properly.... derp.

luciddaydream
11-06-2013, 02:59 PM
I meant doing protein shakes and stuff.


How can protein be a waste of time when it's a vital macronutrient? You have to ingest protein to function properly.... derp.

sambshep
11-06-2013, 03:09 PM
I meant doing protein shakes and stuff.
Are protein shakes mandatory? No.
Are protein shakes convenient? Yes.
Are protein shakes inexpensive? Typically.
Are whole foods better? Most would agree.

MrBillson
11-06-2013, 03:16 PM
Are protein shakes mandatory? No.
Are protein shakes convenient? Yes.
Are protein shakes inexpensive? Typically.
Are whole foods better? Most would agree.

Protein shakes inexpensive? u wot m8?

sambshep
11-06-2013, 03:20 PM
Protein shakes inexpensive? u wot m8?
I didn't say that expensive protein powders don't exist, if that's what you were referring to, otherwise I could use more context.

MrBillson
11-06-2013, 03:26 PM
I didn't say that expensive protein powders don't exist, if that's what you were referring to, otherwise I could use more context.

Most I've seen are pretty pricey.

cumminslifter
11-06-2013, 04:03 PM
I meant doing protein shakes and stuff.protein shakes are used to reach your daily macros, they are not magic muscle building supps

cumminslifter
11-06-2013, 04:04 PM
Most I've seen are pretty pricey.per protein content they really arent to bad

sdunn96
11-06-2013, 06:29 PM
the second one for sure

Rgr that, thanks.

InItForFitness
11-06-2013, 06:35 PM
Half assed effort yields half assed results OP, just remember that.

Which in your situation I'd say just disregard the protein all together, if you're just going to go through the motions in the gym than might as well just go through the motions with your diet too. Eat whatever, put in minimal effort in the gym and be content with whatever results you may or may not see if you don't want to take the time to do it correctly.

sdunn96
11-06-2013, 06:36 PM
So is protein a waste of time at my point? 100% waste of time and money?
That is all I am wondering now.

I would say as far as protein shakes go, if you are able to get your daily protein needs met with food, then yes, the shakes would be a waste of money.
How much do you weigh?

But as was mentioned, they are convenient, so if by end of day, you are short on protein, you can take a shake to meet your needs.