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View Full Version : Name a better defensive lineup in the NBA



homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:24 PM
Coached under Tom Thibodeau

Joakim Noah
Taj Gibson
Luol Deng
Jimmy Buckets
Derrick Rose

literally each player is top 5 defensive player at their position. You can argue none are worse than 3rd.

AirCanada
10-22-2013, 07:27 PM
Came in to post this line-up, leaving satisfied.

Although I don't think Derrick Rose is a top 5 PG defender but definitely top 10.

L0lJ0ker3
10-22-2013, 07:27 PM
Sig

Brb your not scoring
Brb no rebounds
Brb Rose, Buckets, Gibson on a fast break

Good night sweet nba

LionsBrah
10-22-2013, 07:28 PM
is Boozer dead
?

eyeswideshut23
10-22-2013, 07:28 PM
That defense is sick. Memphis and indiana are honorable mentions.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 07:28 PM
Coached under Tom Thibodeau

Joakim Noah
Taj Gibson
Luol Deng
Jimmy Buckets
Derrick Rose

literally each player is top 5 defensive player at their position. You can argue none are worse than 3rd.

rose is not a top 5 pg defender.

Gibson is also highly debatable.


Although the spots that really matter, they do have quite a lock down on, so I agree it's one of the best.

AirCanada
10-22-2013, 07:29 PM
is Boozer dead
?

Why on earth would Boozer be a part of any defensive line-up?

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:29 PM
Came in to post this line-up, leaving satisfied.

Although I don't think Derrick Rose is a top 5 PG defender but definitely top 7-8.
why do you say Rose isn't top 5? He was the best on-ball defending PG in the NBA pre-injury (backed up by stats as well) by a pretty wide margin and looks even better now and he even plays much better team D fighting through screens than before. People only remember his D pre-Thibs. Since Thibs has gotten there Rose has been a legit 2-way lock down player at the PG position. The only thing he really doesn't excel at is getting steals.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:30 PM
rose is not a top 5 pg defender.

Gibson is also highly debatable.


Although the spots that really matter, they do have quite a lock down on, so I agree it's one of the best.
Rose is most definitely a top 5 PG defender. It's not 2009. His defense has been HEAVILY slept on since his MVP season.

AirCanada
10-22-2013, 07:34 PM
why do you say Rose isn't top 5? He was the best on-ball defending PG in the NBA pre-injury (backed up by stats as well) by a pretty wide margin and looks even better now and he even plays much better team D fighting through screens than before. People only remember his D pre-Thibs. Since Thibs has gotten there Rose has been a legit 2-way lock down player at the PG position. The only thing he really doesn't excel at is getting steals.

Edited to top 10, I just remembered a couple of other names as well. He's damn good but IMO Paul, Rondo, Westbrook are the undisputed top 3.

Then you have guys I'd group Rose with like Dragic, Bledsoe, Rubio, Lowry, Holiday, Conley, and probably Wall if he improves a bit more on the defensive end this year. A lot of those guys are interchangeable which is why it's hard to say top 5 compared to top 10.

Basically I'd put it at 2 tiers...the Rondo/Paul/Westbrook tier and then the 2nd tier with all the guys I listed.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:34 PM
Nobody saying Rose wasn't/isn't top 5 defensive PG is going to win the argument.

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/?_r=0
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/656564-derrick-roses-dismal-defense-dismissing-disparaging-drivel

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 07:35 PM
Nobody saying Rose wasn't/isn't top 5 defensive PG isn't going to win the argument.

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/?_r=0
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/656564-derrick-roses-dismal-defense-dismissing-disparaging-drivel

2 articles from 2011 are never going to make your point dude.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:35 PM
Edited to top 10, I just remembered a couple of other names as well. He's damn good but IMO Paul, Rondo, Westbrook are the undisputed top 3.

Then you have guys I'd group Rose with like Dragic, Bledsoe, Rubio, Lowry, Holiday, and probably Wall if he improves a bit more on the defensive end this year. A lot of those guys are interchangeable which is why it's hard to say top 5 compared to top 10.

Basically I'd put it at 2 tiers...the Rondo/Paul/Westbrook tier and then the 2nd tier with all the guys I listed.
again, explain why Rose isn't a top 5 defensive PG. Hell, evidence and actually watching him when he was in form (and he is definitely in form now) suggests that saying otherwise is wrong. There is nothing to back it up unless you want to cherry pick individual games here and there where opposing PGs played well, which I could easily do for any PG you deem better.

Jaccogo
10-22-2013, 07:36 PM
rondo
avery bradley
kevin garnett
paul pierce
glen davis

houtexans23
10-22-2013, 07:37 PM
Nobody saying Rose wasn't/isn't top 5 defensive PG isn't going to win the argument.

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/?_r=0
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/656564-derrick-roses-dismal-defense-dismissing-disparaging-drivel

so that means that anybody who says that rose wasn't/isn't top 5 defensive pg is going to win the argument? i'd strongly suggest rephrasing that sentence.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:38 PM
2 articles from 2011 are never going to make your point dude.
well, last time he was healthy was at that time. If your reasoning for not putting him top 5 is because he hasn't played, fine. But if you are going to make that statement counting how he played pre-injury, again, you aren't going to win that argument and you sure as hell won't win it watching him thus far. He looks legitimately even better and smarter.

houtexans23
10-22-2013, 07:38 PM
rondo
avery bradley
kevin garnett
paul pierce
glen davis

son, i have bad news...

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:38 PM
so that means that anybody who says that rose wasn't/isn't top 5 defensive pg is going to win the argument? i'd strongly suggest rephrasing that sentence.
lost train of thought midsentence. will edit.

AirCanada
10-22-2013, 07:39 PM
again, explain why Rose isn't a top 5 defensive PG. Hell, evidence and actually watching him when he was in form (and he is definitely in form now) suggests that saying otherwise is wrong. There is nothing to back it up.

I just finished saying that it's retarded to rank this sort of thing on a top 5 basis. I don't think Rose is as good of a defender as Westy/CP3/Rondo and I hate all 3 of those guys and I like Rose. So he's definitely out of the top 3. Then all of those other guys I listed also play great but not elite defense, and it's impossible to come to a conclusive argument for who the top 2 out of those 8 guys are. You could maybe narrow it down to 5 guys at best but that still makes it impossible to outright claim any one of them as a top 5 PG defender.

ImInTHIS
10-22-2013, 07:39 PM
Came in to post this line-up, leaving satisfied.

Although I don't think Derrick Rose is a top 5 PG defender but definitely top 10.

This. This. This. BUT can you not WAIT and HOPE Snell becomes good? He has the length.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 07:40 PM
again, explain why Rose isn't a top 5 defensive PG. Hell, evidence and actually watching him when he was in form (and he is definitely in form now) suggests that saying otherwise is wrong. There is nothing to back it up unless you want to cherry pick individual games here and there where opposing PGs played well, which I could easily do for any PG you deem better.

rondo paul conley westbrook shumpert bradley wall <- these are all guards I would take over Rose for defense. Wall is an underrated defender.

jumpman18
10-22-2013, 07:41 PM
Pistons defense is going to be looking j00cy this year

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 07:42 PM
well, last time he was healthy was at that time. If your reasoning for not putting him top 5 is because he hasn't played, fine. But if you are going to make that statement counting how he played pre-injury, again, you aren't going to win that argument and you sure as hell won't win it watching him thus far. He looks legitimately even better and smarter.

No I just think that he is right around 4-8 in terms of PG defense.

Rose benefits from sometimes being hidden on defense the way curry needs to be, and even rondo can be with avery sometimes although rondo is "hidden" to conserve energy, not for lack of defensive ability.

Rose also has a great TEAM defense.

ImInTHIS
10-22-2013, 07:42 PM
well, last time he was healthy was at that time. If your reasoning for not putting him top 5 is because he hasn't played, fine. But if you are going to make that statement counting how he played pre-injury, again, you aren't going to win that argument and you sure as hell won't win it watching him thus far. He looks legitimately even better and smarter.

He's a troll brah. A very laughable and dedicated one at that. Ignore and move on.

"Taj Gibson highly debatable." Fuarkin lol. And his scoring is even better than the past few seasons.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:42 PM
I just finished saying that it's retarded to rank this sort of thing on a top 5 basis. I don't think Rose is as good of a defender as Westy/CP3/Rondo and I hate all 3 of those guys and I like Rose. So he's definitely out of the top 3. Then all of those other guys I listed also play great but not elite defense, and it's impossible to come to a conclusive argument for who the top 2 out of those 8 guys are. You could maybe narrow it down to 5 guys at best but that still makes it impossible to outright claim any one of them as a top 5 PG defender.
you still haven't told me why any of those three were/are better you just list them. on-ball defense, Rose is the best PG. 2nd best at worst. Watching him and using stats support that. He did need to improve getting around screens, but he has clearly improved in that area.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:44 PM
No I just think that he is right around 4-8 in terms of PG defense.

Rose benefits from sometimes being hidden on defense the way curry needs to be, and even rondo can be with avery sometimes although rondo is "hidden" to conserve energy, not for lack of defensive ability.

Rose also has a great TEAM defense.
So did/does Rondo with the Celtics. See how convenient that is?

Again, you can WATCH him and look at iso defense and see how he is playing. You can clearly see he locks the position down one-on-one and improves the defense being on the court than being off (given the same lineup).

AirCanada
10-22-2013, 07:45 PM
you still haven't told me why any of those three were/are better you just list them. on-ball defense, Rose is the best PG. 2nd best at worst. Watching him and using stats support that. He did need to improve getting around screens, but he has clearly improved in that area.

Wot? I'll take all 3 over Rose for man to man defense. That points per possession article linked is pretty hard to justify when you have the best team defense in the NBA covering up any mistakes he may make in a 1 on 1 situation compared to Paul in New Orleans (at the time).

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 07:45 PM
He's a troll brah. A very laughable and dedicated one at that. Ignore and move on.

"Taj Gibson highly debatable." Fuarkin lol. And his scoring is even better than the past few seasons.

Duncan
Noah
Garnett
Ibaka
Chandler
Hibbert
West
Gasol
Perkins
Dwight


Those are ALL big men I would take over Taj Gibson with zero question.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 07:46 PM
So did/does Rondo with the Celtics. See how convenient that is?

Again, you can WATCH him and look at iso defense and see how he is playing. You can clearly see he locks the position down one-on-one and improves the defense being on the court than being off (given the same lineup).

You say "given the same lineup" because you are apparently aware that off the court the bulls are like ... 7 points better or something crazy, so bleacher report feigned having the proper stats to remove that idea, but all they did was show that Rose USUALLY plays with one unit, and then they implied that it was scrubs vs scrubs when he was out, which is not necessarily true.

Rose is a good defender, possibly top 5, but you can't sit here and tell me he's the "best" pg defender. That is ridiculous.

gotrice33
10-22-2013, 07:46 PM
came in to post bulls. left satisfied.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:47 PM
Wot? I'll take all 3 over Rose for man to man defense. That points per possession article linked is pretty hard to justify when you have the best team defense in the NBA covering up any mistakes he may make in a 1 on 1 situation compared to Paul in New Orleans (at the time).
What about Rondo's team D? Westbrook with Ibaka protecting the rim? Again, I can easily flip these arguments around. Like I said both stats and the eye test shows he plays great individual D.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 07:49 PM
What about Rondo's team D? Westbrook with Ibaka protecting the rim? Again, I can easily flip these arguments around. Like I said both stats and the eye test shows he plays great individual D.

Ibaka gets 99% weak side blocks, so I have close to no idea what you mean by that.

Ibaka is hardly shoring up Westbrooks weaknesses, which he does not have many on the defensive end.

ImInTHIS
10-22-2013, 07:50 PM
Duncan
Noah
Garnett
Ibaka
Chandler
Hibbert
West
Gasol
Perkins
Dwight


Those are ALL big men I would take over Taj Gibson with zero question.

Nice. Compare superstar players to an underrated role bench player who has and can get defensive stops. Oh and have you seen his last few games? Granted pre-season, but its a tale tell of whats to come. Any team would take him in heart beat. You get a lot of talent for that price of his. A bench is important to you right?

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:50 PM
You say "given the same lineup" because you are apparently aware that off the court the bulls are like ... 7 points better or something crazy, so bleacher report feigned having the proper stats to remove that idea, but all they did was show that Rose USUALLY plays with one unit, and then they implied that it was scrubs vs scrubs when he was out, which is not necessarily true.
Of course that is the case. Noah is the best defensive player on the court, but he usually only played with Rose, so does that make him an overrated defender? The bulls 2nd unit was an elite defense in its own right going up against ****ty 2nd units so of course they would suffocate the other team. Simple logic dismisses that argument.


Rose is a good defender, possibly top 5, but you can't sit here and tell me he's the "best" pg defender. That is ridiculous.
he is the best on ball PG defender. I can back that up. You can disagree but I KNOW it's not a ridiculous claim even if you have some sort of understandable objection.

AirCanada
10-22-2013, 07:51 PM
What about Rondo's team D? Westbrook with Ibaka protecting the rim? Again, I can easily flip these arguments around. Like I said both stats and the eye test shows he plays great individual D.

Again the points per possession stat came from 2011 when Ibaka was in his sophomore year and not the same player he is now. Not to mention that the Bulls have TEAM defense, AKA everyone covering for everyone, not just one guy coming in at the last second to block a shot.

With OKC behind Westbrook, Ibaka is the only guy you could consider a "good" help defender. Perkins and Sefolosha are both average help guys and are stronger while guarding post/perimeter respectively.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 07:52 PM
Nice. Compare superstar players to an underrated role bench player who has and can get defensive stops. Oh and have you seen his last few games? Granted pre-season, but its a tale tell of whats to come. Any team would take him in heart beat. You get a lot of talent for that price of his. A bench is important to you right?

Bench value was not the topic of discussion. Defense was the subject, I said there is no way Taj is top 5 at defense, now you're upset that I was able to easily list 10 big men over him.

Just stop dude.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:53 PM
Ibaka gets 99% weak side blocks, so I have close to no idea what you mean by that.

Ibaka is hardly shoring up Westbrooks weaknesses, which he does not have many on the defensive end.
And neither does Rose. I am not saying Rondo and Westbrook aren't elite, but they are not head and shoulders above Rose and the only thing they do significantly better is get steals. Rose is equal or better at almost everything else.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:55 PM
Again the points per possession stat came from 2011 when Ibaka was in his sophomore year and not the same player he is now. Not to mention that the Bulls have TEAM defense, AKA everyone covering for everyone, not just one guy coming in at the last second to block a shot.

With OKC behind Westbrook, Ibaka is the only guy you could consider a "good" help defender. Perkins and Sefolosha are both average help guys and are stronger while guarding post/perimeter respectively.
Both Perkins and Sefolosha grade out well in team defense as well. Perkins came from that great Celtics system and sefolosha has allways been one of the better perimeter defenders. Just because Thibs has a better system than the Thunder doesn't mean Westbrook doesn't get help having other excellent defenders on the court with him.

ImInTHIS
10-22-2013, 07:55 PM
Bench value was not the topic of discussion. Defense was the subject, I said there is no way Taj is top 5 at defense, now you're upset that I was able to easily list 10 big men over him.

Just stop dude.

Unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful. Taj is on par with most of the guys you listed. Im sure Dwayne and many others agree.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 07:56 PM
And neither does Rose. I am not saying Rondo and Westbrook aren't elite, but they are not head and shoulders above Rose and the only thing they do significantly better is get steals. Rose is equal or better at almost everything else.

Steals can be a bad indicator of defense, I just think you are going pretty ham on this topic when it's not really necessary.

We both agreed that this lineup is probably the best defense in the NBA, you just seem out to validate Rose's individual defense, which I think is still close to top 5 if not top 5.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:58 PM
I'm not going to continue since it's going to go in circles, but like I said, it is not ridiculous to claim Rose is an elite defensive PG nor the best on-ball defending PG, the Bulls will have retarded-dominant D this year if they stay healthy, and you will all be witnesses to GOAT defense.

homicidal_misc
10-22-2013, 07:59 PM
Steals can be a bad indicator of defense, I just think you are going pretty ham on this topic when it's not really necessary.

We both agreed that this lineup is probably the best defense in the NBA, you just seem out to validate Rose's individual defense, which I think is still close to top 5 if not top 5.
just saying I can say Rose is one of the best and back it up. Just so happy he is back. Not even mid-season form and he is pissing on people.

BullBoy8
10-22-2013, 08:22 PM
rondo paul conley westbrook shumpert bradley wall <- these are all guards I would take over Rose for defense. Wall is an underrated defender.

Gosh I hope you are joking.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 08:24 PM
Gosh I hope you are joking.

Who do you have a serious issue with in that list outside of john wall, who you probably just need to watch more.

BullBoy8
10-22-2013, 08:31 PM
Who do you have a serious issue with in that list outside of john wall, who you probably just need to watch more.

Chris Paul, Westbrook. Though I am surprised you didnt name Tony Allen. Looking at the list the others are legit. Westbrook is good, but I think Rose is better, Westbrook #2 PG overall to me. Would take Rose over Conley too. I know Shump was good pre ACL, but he struggled a little after, but I would need to watch him to see where he is at now.

Edit: also it was top 5 pg. I dont consider Shump and Bradley PGs. Which means I shouldnt have listed Tony Allen though I was think guards overall.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 08:33 PM
Chris Paul, Westbrook. Though I am surprised you didnt name Tony Allen. Looking at the list the others are legit. Westbrook is good, but I think Rose is better, Westbrook #2 PG overall to me. Would take Rose over Conley too. I know Shump was good pre ACL, but he struggled a little after, but I would need to watch him to see where he is at now.

Westbrook is a great defender, Conley got DPOY votes and just made his first all defense team, and chris paul is a fixture on all defensive teams. Shump had the same injury as rose so ehhhh.....

Tony allen guards bigger guys not usually pgs. Shump and bradley both tend to guard point guards.

BullBoy8
10-22-2013, 09:18 PM
Westbrook is a great defender, Conley got DPOY votes and just made his first all defense team, and chris paul is a fixture on all defensive teams. Shump had the same injury as rose so ehhhh.....

Tony allen guards bigger guys not usually pgs. Shump and bradley both tend to guard point guards.

Unfortunate that I gotta use preseason, but Rose defense in preseason>shump D post ACL last year. CP3 is a joke. Honestly surprised with how much he gets away with on D.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 09:26 PM
Unfortunate that I gotta use preseason, but Rose defense in preseason>shump D post ACL last year. CP3 is a joke. Honestly surprised with how much he gets away with on D.

Yeah I think CP3 does get a bit of reputation to his defense a la kobe. Still, the case for him being a good defender is better than the one for him being a bad defender.

Shump might be different, time will tell, but 2011 rose was not some vaunted defender which I feel the OP is making him out to be. He's good.

bananabucket
10-22-2013, 11:09 PM
k I guess I'll have to do it again


Pacers fool

FAH_Q
10-22-2013, 11:55 PM
rose is not a top 5 pg defender.




rondo paul conley westbrook shumpert bradley wall <- these are all guards I would take over Rose for defense. Wall is an underrated defender.


No I just think that he is right around 4-8 in terms of PG defense.





Rose is a good defender, possibly top 5


which I think is still close to top 5 if not top 5.

potato

homicidal_misc
10-23-2013, 12:52 AM
potato
what can I say nikka that was all me.

FryDude
10-23-2013, 12:57 AM
Start Boozer @ SF

wickedman
10-23-2013, 01:24 AM
Unfortunate that I gotta use preseason, but Rose defense in preseason>shump D post ACL last year. CP3 is a joke. Honestly surprised with how much he gets away with on D.

Ahhh so one guy with an ACL injury gets penalized because he has played real games and another gets elevated because of 6 preseason games - makes sense.

Doober4
10-23-2013, 02:20 AM
That's the best get eliminated in the second round of the playoffs lineup of all time.

homicidal_misc
10-23-2013, 02:31 AM
That's the best get eliminated in the second round of the playoffs lineup of all time.
yeah I wish I had a line-up that can't even make the playoffs in the East.

Psyren
10-23-2013, 03:54 AM
Murry
Shumpert
MWP
Kmart
Chandler

offense of peace tho

BullBoy8
10-23-2013, 06:43 AM
Ahhh so one guy with an ACL injury gets penalized because he has played real games and another gets elevated because of 6 preseason games - makes sense.

Pretty much. Unfortunate isnt it?

TheMarshall
10-23-2013, 07:36 AM
The Thunder are #1 defense on 2k how can you argue that OP?

homicidal_misc
10-23-2013, 07:41 AM
Ahhh so one guy with an ACL injury gets penalized because he has played real games and another gets elevated because of 6 preseason games - makes sense.
you get that benefit when you are a superstar killin **** and not a scrub role player