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View Full Version : best NBA guard to never win a ring...?



darknessmanX
10-22-2013, 08:19 PM
No link rest.

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John Stockton says hello.

honorable mention; reggie miller.

anyone disagree? i usually go right ahead and place Stockton as the greatest NBA player to never win a ring period, but Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor kind of screw that up. he's at least the greatest ringless guard.

all time leader in assists, all time leader in steals, best defensive guard ever easily. in 1990 stockton was giving you over 17 ppg, 14.5 apg and 2.7 spg.- it doesn't get any better than that. a classic baller.

for your time;

http://dimemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/john-stockton.jpg

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 08:20 PM
Allen Iverson.

darknessmanX
10-22-2013, 08:22 PM
Allen Iverson.

both he and steve nash deserve honorable mentions, but i could never take AI over stockton especially considering defense and shooting.

stockton shooting = wet wet bang bang (anyone who remembers stockton knows i'm not crazy when i say he was almost as good of a shooter as Nash)

AI shooting = 39% from the field LoL

defense; not even comparable.

Bezzz
10-22-2013, 08:22 PM
Nash.

Ecnewyx
10-22-2013, 08:23 PM
Came in expecting Stockton. Left satisfied.

Almost as good a shooter as Nash? Stock averaged better than 50% from the field. That's incredible for a 6' guard.

Plus 7 seasons with over 1,000 assists. Hnnnnrgh.

darknessmanX
10-22-2013, 08:25 PM
Nash.

that john stockton imposter will never be the best anything imo

they're basically the same player except one is the defensive GOAT, the other could not defend a small child from a pack of chihuahuas.

Suit
10-22-2013, 08:29 PM
John Stockton GOAT without a ring.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 08:31 PM
both he and steve nash deserve honorable mentions, but i could never take AI over stockton especially considering defense and shooting.

stockton shooting = wet wet bang bang (anyone who remembers stockton knows i'm not crazy when i say he was almost as good of a shooter as Nash)

AI shooting = 39% from the field LoL

defense; not even comparable.

Why is their defense not comparable. Iverson has 3 steals titles, Stockton has 2.

Stockton was not some great man defender either.


Iverson was hands down the better scorer with a good assist rate still.


http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/allen_iverson_vs_john_stockton.htm

ItsWhatIDo
10-22-2013, 08:38 PM
Came in to say Stockton. Left satisfied

YellowOnYellow
10-22-2013, 08:39 PM
Steve franchise. The goat.

darknessmanX
10-22-2013, 08:53 PM
Why is their defense not comparable. Iverson has 3 steals titles, Stockton has 2.

Stockton was not some great man defender either.


Iverson was hands down the better scorer with a good assist rate still.


http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/allen_iverson_vs_john_stockton.htm

oi vey, now i've read it all.

and steals =/= defense... there's a lot more to it than that.

your claim is that AI was a better basketball player than Stockon. not a crazy claim, but not really worth arguing about. ask people who were actually around to watch Stockton who was better, Stockon or AI, and i imagine about 90% of them pick Stockton.

which guy actually had his team in the finals? well, that was both of them, but AI did it once in the poverty east. then AI got crushed by the lake show, and stockton was having competitive series against the 90's bulls. big difference. stockton was damn close to getting a ring or two, AI was obviously never gonna get a ring halfway through his career.

and i don't understand how you can say stockton was not a great man defender. he was the best defensive guard in the league bar none (who was better?).

and at 39% clip... i can't even agree that AI was the better scorer. factor in his assists and stockton honestly got a lot more scoring done, at a monumentally better clip.

TexasMajor
10-22-2013, 08:58 PM
Between AI and Stockton, I would pick Stockton 10 out of 10 times. All Iverson did better than Stockton was score.

darknessmanX
10-22-2013, 09:02 PM
Between AI and Stockton, I would pick Stockton 10 out of 10 times. All Iverson did better than Stockton was score.

even that is debatable. how do you NOT score 30 ppg when you're heaving shot after shot for 4 quarters at a 40% clip?

who do you trust more simply taking a shot? who do you trust more from the arc? who do you trust more from the stripe? for all of these it's Stockton.

and who played the point guard position better...? obviously, stockton. i bet even AI himself would agree.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 09:02 PM
oi vey, now i've read it all.

and steals =/= defense... there's a lot more to it than that.

your claim is that AI was a better basketball player than Stockon. not a crazy claim, but not really worth arguing about. ask people who were actually around to watch Stockton who was better, Stockon or AI, and i imagine about 90% of them pick Stockton.

which guy actually had his team in the finals? well, that was both of them, but AI did it once in the poverty east. then AI got crushed by the lake show, and stockton was having competitive series against the 90's bulls. big difference. stockton was damn close to getting a ring or two, AI was obviously never gonna get a ring halfway through his career.

and i don't understand how you can say stockton was not a great man defender. he was the best defensive guard in the league bar none (who was better?).

and at 39% clip... i can't even agree that AI was the better scorer. factor in his assists and stockton honestly got a lot more scoring done, at a monumentally better clip.

if every assist equals lets say 2 points

10.5 = 21 points
6.2 = 12 points

Stocktons career average 13.1 points + 21 = 34.1 points
Iversons career average 26.7 points + 12 = 38.7 points

Player A 13.1pts 10.1ast 2.7reb
Player B 26.7pts 6.2ast 3.7reb

One of those players looks vastly superior to the average fan.

I agree they are basically even in any all time ranking, but to say that it's some hands down comparison is ridiculous. They were both victims of circumstance, stockton would not be half as successful if he didn't play with Karl Malone his entire career.


Iversons career average is 42.5%, stop saying 39% for shock value, it makes you look stupid.


Iverson was only with another all star 1 time in his career. Never with any all nba player aside from 3rd teamer ONE TIME in Mutombo, who was also the all star.

Stockton? Lol gooby pls.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 09:05 PM
Calling AI a pg is also disrespectful to the position. He was a shooting guard for most of his career.


In reality, Stockton has an INCREDIBLE cast, Iverson had nothing.

broboma2012
10-22-2013, 09:05 PM
Why is their defense not comparable. Iverson has 3 steals titles, Stockton has 2



Steals can be a bad indicator of defense

hmm

theobelisk
10-22-2013, 09:06 PM
I clicked this thread thinking Stockton and agree but Stockton was not really a good 1 on 1 defender. I remember Isiah Thomas getting 40+ stiches upside his head from the Mailman. Stockton was chosen as the guard for Dream Team over Isiah. Next time they played, Isiah completely wrecked Stocked. Destroyed him. Karl Malone had no choice but to take Isiah out of the game. He was making Stockton look like he didn't belong in the league.
I am a Jazz fan, watched Stockton my whole life growing up and he had the killer in him. best game I ever saw was triple overtime vs bulls in Salt Lake City. Jordan and Stockton going back and forth matching big shots for 3 OT's. Sick Game ! But yeah, as great as I think Stockton was. I would not regard him as a top defender. You have to be able to shut down 1 vs 1 for that. Jazz played great team defense. He had a lot of help on defense.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 09:07 PM
hmm

Stocktons only real claim to fame on D is his steals total, which is why I was saying that. Stockton was not some famed defender, neither was Iverson.

He said they weren't even comparable.



Also - to say Iverson was not a better scorer is ridiculous, his ppg is literally double stocktons.

darknessmanX
10-22-2013, 09:08 PM
I clicked this thread thinking Stockton and agree but Stockton was not really a good 1 on 1 defender. I remember Isiah Thomas getting 40+ stiches upside his head from the Mailman. Stockton was chosen as the guard for Dream Team over Isiah. Next time they played, Isiah completely wrecked Stocked. Destroyed him. Karl Malone had no choice but to take Isiah out of the game. He was making Stockton look like he didn't belong in the league.
I am a Jazz fan, watched Stockton my whole life growing up and he had the killer in him. best game I ever saw was triple overtime vs bulls in Salt Lake City. Jordan and Stockton going back and forth matching big shots for 3 OT's. Sick Game ! But yeah, as great as I think Stockton was. I would not regard him as a top defender. You have to be able to shut down 1 vs 1 for that. Jazz played great team defense. He had a lot of help on defense.

literally the GOAT flagrant foul. can watch that thing 20 times in a row;

6bM-Y4UoiAY

AirCanada
10-22-2013, 09:10 PM
Came in expecting Stockton. Left satisfied.

Almost as good a shooter as Nash? Stock averaged better than 50% from the field. That's incredible for a 6' guard.

Plus 7 seasons with over 1,000 assists. Hnnnnrgh.

We just gonna act like Steve Nash didn't have an 8 year stretch in Phoenix where he averaged 51% FG, 44% 3P, and 91% FT?

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 09:10 PM
I raise you

X7r6vXeOfyQ

SompletelyCober
10-22-2013, 09:12 PM
oi vey, now i've read it all.

and steals =/= defense... there's a lot more to it than that.

your claim is that AI was a better basketball player than Stockon. not a crazy claim, but not really worth arguing about. ask people who were actually around to watch Stockton who was better, Stockon or AI, and i imagine about 90% of them pick Stockton.

which guy actually had his team in the finals? well, that was both of them, but AI did it once in the poverty east. then AI got crushed by the lake show, and stockton was having competitive series against the 90's bulls. big difference. stockton was damn close to getting a ring or two, AI was obviously never gonna get a ring halfway through his career.

and i don't understand how you can say stockton was not a great man defender. he was the best defensive guard in the league bar none (who was better?).

and at 39% clip... i can't even agree that AI was the better scorer. factor in his assists and stockton honestly got a lot more scoring done, at a monumentally better clip.

Hey buddy, you think Sir Charles was around to see Stockton play?

Oh yeah, he was?

Well then why did he select Iverson as the #1 overall pick in the history of the NBA to start his basketball team?


XixBwzJ4KTk



Another thread closed by SompletelyCober.

IAmTheOne1
10-22-2013, 09:13 PM
Stockton vs Iverson is close on paper. The argument could go either way

I'd give it to Iverson just because the guy literally had trash for teammates his entire career whereas Stockton almost always had a great cast around him

darknessmanX
10-22-2013, 09:13 PM
Hey buddy, you think Sir Charles was around to see Stockton play?

Oh yeah, he was?

Well then why did he select Iverson as the #1 overall pick in the history of the NBA to start his basketball team?


XixBwzJ4KTk



Another thread closed by SompletelyCober.

because both he and you are phucking tools who take AI over Jordan?

was YOUR stupid ass even alive to see stockton play?

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 09:14 PM
It's also sort of ironic and weird to say, but Stockton is also getting the "white guy bump" over iverson right now.

3lixer
10-22-2013, 09:15 PM
Came in thinking Stockton. Iverson also a good candidate. Also

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/0104/sn_g_payton_jv_576.jpg

This guy

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 09:16 PM
^ Payton won a ring.

3lixer
10-22-2013, 09:17 PM
^ Payton won a ring.

Forgot he played for the Heat.

jross2021
10-22-2013, 09:18 PM
Its obviously stockton, the only other player that had a case against him was Payton, but he went chasing at the end of his career

jross2021
10-22-2013, 09:19 PM
It's also sort of ironic and weird to say, but Stockton is also getting the "white guy bump" over iverson right now.

I love AI, but stockton was just an all around better player than him

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 09:22 PM
I love AI, but stockton was just an all around better player than him

I'm okay with saying that, but I'm a huge Iverson fan, and he is the most consistently discredited and under appreciated player ever. So many disrespectful comparisons.

I get tired of hearing about why a 5 10 shooting guards %'s are so low when he won an MVP and led a team of nobodies to the finals.

HarpoonBrah
10-22-2013, 09:47 PM
The Answer is Iverson

Bloodrushtiger
10-22-2013, 09:49 PM
Gilbert Arenas luls

Daewoo_Lanos
10-22-2013, 10:00 PM
Iverson.

and only a stupid phaggot would keep repeating 39% when it was actually a hair from 40%... when it wasn't even iverson's best scoring season, so it doesn't represent him needing to chuck in order to reach a career high... when he averaged 33 PPG on 45% shooting at his peak, but let's pretend that didn't happen.

best seasons:

33ppg, 7.4 asts, 3.2 rebs, 1.9 stls, 45% fg, 32% 3pt, 81% FT, 25.9 PER
17.2ppg, 14.5 asts, 2.6 rebs, 2.7 stls, 52% fg, 41% 3pt, 82% FT, 23.9 PER

AlextheWall
10-22-2013, 10:03 PM
Stockton, not really that close either.

darknessmanX
10-22-2013, 10:04 PM
reggie miller >>>> iverson

miller = 40/50/90 represent

who would you rather have as the lead dog of your team- miller or AI? easily miller. miller was the better shooter, better scorer, way better leader and had a much better attitude. AI was a borderline team cancer at his worst moments. he basically ruined Carmelo's early development. he was never a pure shooter and pure scorer like Miller.

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 10:05 PM
reggie miller >>>> iverson

miller = 40/50/90 represent

who would you rather have as the lead dog of your team- miller or AI? easily miller. miller was the better shooter, better scorer, way better leader and had a much better attitude. AI was a borderline team cancer at his worst moments. he basically ruined Carmelo's early development. he was never a pure shooter and pure scorer like Miller.

Reggie Miller has zero 50 40 90 seasons, why would you even mention that.

Reggie Miller is not even CLOSE to as good as Iverson. Get that trash out of here. Iverson led teams BEAT Millers teams.

You can tell A LOT about someones basketball knowledge by their judgement of allen iverson.

darknessmanX
10-22-2013, 10:09 PM
Reggie Miller has zero 50 40 90 seasons, why would you even mention that.

Reggie Miller is not even CLOSE to as good as Iverson. Get that trash out of here. Iverson led teams BEAT Millers teams.

you sure about that...?

Reggie Miller 1993-1994: .503 FG, .421 3P, .908 FT

sdballer5588
10-22-2013, 10:11 PM
you sure about that...?

Reggie Miller 1993-1994: .503 FG, .421 3P, .908 FT

Omfg I dun fukkin GOOFED.

Still, he was not anywhere near Iversons level of scoring, and lost head to head vs iverson.


Those pacers teams were also miles ahead of the sixers in terms of overall talent.

NewYorkMets
10-22-2013, 10:13 PM
Stockton is the right answer.

nvrstopworking
10-22-2013, 10:20 PM
I'm okay with saying that, but I'm a huge Iverson fan, and he is the most consistently discredited and under appreciated player ever. So many disrespectful comparisons.

I get tired of hearing about why a 5 10 shooting guards %'s are so low when he won an MVP and led a team of nobodies to the finals.

I love Iverson too and he DOES deserve more respect than he gets..... but Stockton's the right answer here. All-time assists and steals leader.

Really would have liked to have seen what A.I. could have done with a running mate like the Mailman though.

samir316
10-22-2013, 10:20 PM
Stockton is #1 and the next guy isn't even at his ankles. AI had terrible shot selection and attitude issues.

I got a soft spot in my heart for this guy

http://www.nysuperstar.com/John-Starks.jpg

jross2021
10-22-2013, 10:28 PM
Omfg I dun fukkin GOOFED.

Still, he was not anywhere near Iversons level of scoring, and lost head to head vs iverson.


Those pacers teams were also miles ahead of the sixers in terms of overall talent.

Your box score skills are slippin'


Today: wrong about reggie
Yesterday: thought paul was only in la 1 year


Tomorrow: ?

DrunkenKangaroo
10-22-2013, 11:45 PM
Stockton is #1 and the next guy isn't even at his ankles. AI had terrible shot selection and attitude issues.

I got a soft spot in my heart for this guy

http://www.nysuperstar.com/John-Starks.jpg

Agreed 100%. I've always loved John "No conscience" Starks.

nvrstopworking
10-23-2013, 12:00 AM
Hard to feel bad for Starks when he pizzed away his best chance in Gm. 7 back in '94....

HoustonMiscer
10-23-2013, 12:02 AM
I raise you

X7r6vXeOfyQ

Mchale should do that chit Dwight everytime that phaggot misses a free throw. Also do that chit to Asik everytime that phucking phaggot decides to complain about PT. Also do that to phaggot Jeremy Lin everytime his phucking phaggot ass fans throw a fit because "Mchale hates Lin." Semisrs

darknessmanX
10-23-2013, 12:25 AM
speaking of gary payton....

LJCwyh0fDGw

"He wasn't tougher than Jordan."

"Yes he was." -Gary Payton

mirin' stockton's toughness. dude truly was a tough son of a bitch, tree-trunk legs too.

Maximum
10-23-2013, 01:01 AM
Stockton is #1 and the next guy isn't even at his ankles. AI had terrible shot selection and attitude issues.

I got a soft spot in my heart for this guy

http://www.nysuperstar.com/John-Starks.jpg

repped...I was probably the biggest J Starks fan in Chicago. Love his story, and was pulling damn hard for him in the Finals. Pissed the hell out of me to see Marbury wear his number.

pretty sure none of us watching him play- his one year with the Bulls, was the first year i even had a game on in front of me, but I nominate the Iceman for 2nd or 3rd behind Stock.

HumptyBrah
10-23-2013, 02:17 AM
Thread needs more Steph "So Wet Your Grandma Will Need To Sit on a Towel" Curry











Not srs, in b4 Day

Ecnewyx
10-23-2013, 07:42 AM
We just gonna act like Steve Nash didn't have an 8 year stretch in Phoenix where he averaged 51% FG, 44% 3P, and 91% FT?

Yeah, that was my intention. :D

DatFatWhale
10-23-2013, 08:15 AM
Your box score skills are slippin'


Today: wrong about reggie
Yesterday: thought paul was only in la 1 year


Tomorrow: ?

http://31.media.tumblr.com/fd9b669e8e3b10dbc40f9f043a3a248a/tumblr_mqxhmksBJ81s2xab7o1_400.gif