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DanMee
05-27-2013, 02:38 PM
Hoping someone could provide some of the more seminal referenece papers into the use of BCAA's. Wanting to prove their not worth the money.

Cheers

braggable
05-27-2013, 03:07 PM
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/faculty/guy/bch5045/LehningerBook.jpg

Yoy0
05-27-2013, 03:51 PM
They're only worth the money if you want them to be.

Xtend Green Apple tastes so ****ing awesome and is 0 calories. That is the only reason why I buy them.

Your body runs on carbs, man. That's all you need.

WonderPug
05-27-2013, 03:56 PM
Xtend Green Apple tastes so ****ing awesome and is 0 calories.Incorrect.

Each gram of BCAA's contain over 5 calories. Labeling regulations allow them to list the calories as zero.

Yoy0
05-27-2013, 03:57 PM
Incorrect.

Each gram of BCAA's contain over 5 calories. Labeling regulations allow them to list the calories as zero.

Granted, buuuuuuuuuut, still pretty good for 5 calories IMHO.

AlwaysTryin
05-27-2013, 04:55 PM
Granted, buuuuuuuuuut, still pretty good for 5 calories IMHO.

So is trutein cinnabun... Almost less calories and cheaper

cumminslifter
05-27-2013, 05:22 PM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=594912&page=1 there ya go

Health45
05-28-2013, 10:07 AM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=150006373&p=987691013#post987691013
read the approach by JerryB
imho he's doing the right thing: less protein but compensate with BCAA.
just saying.
carry on

AlwaysTryin
05-28-2013, 03:04 PM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=150006373&p=987691013#post987691013
read the approach by JerryB
imho he's doing the right thing: less protein but compensate with BCAA.
just saying.
carry on

He's having 150g which is enough.... What's your point

WonderPug
05-28-2013, 03:07 PM
Granted, buuuuuuuuuut, still pretty good for 5 calories IMHO.It's not 5 calories per serving. It's over 5 calories per gram of BCAA's.

cumminslifter
05-28-2013, 04:15 PM
It's not 5 calories per serving. It's over 5 calories per gram of BCAA's.this^
how do they get away with labeling BCAA as 0 cals per serving when its about 25cals?

KobiDC
05-28-2013, 04:19 PM
here's some info on bcaa's

http://examine.com/supplements/Branched+Chain+Amino+Acids/

Terrimonas
05-28-2013, 04:25 PM
this^
how do they get away with labeling BCAA as 0 cals per serving when its about 25cals?

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocumentsRegulatoryInformation/DietarySupplements/ucm070597.htm#4-12

12. May I declare protein on the label if my product contains only individual amino acids?
No. You may not declare protein on your products that contain only amino acids.
21 CFR 101.36(b)(2)(i)

No protein, no fat, no carbs by difference multiplied by the respective Atwater factors if that's how they choose to calculate calories = 0 Calories.

cumminslifter
05-28-2013, 04:34 PM
http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocumentsRegulatoryInformation/DietarySupplements/ucm070597.htm#4-12

12. May I declare protein on the label if my product contains only individual amino acids?
No. You may not declare protein on your products that contain only amino acids.
21 CFR 101.36(b)(2)(i)

No protein, no fat, no carbs by difference multiplied by the respective Atwater factors if that's how they choose to calculate calories = 0 Calories.those sneaky SOB's

Terrimonas
05-28-2013, 04:41 PM
those sneaky SOB's

Well at least they aren't padding the protein amount with glycine, taurine and creatine :D

snorkelman
05-28-2013, 04:50 PM
Well at least they aren't padding the protein amount with glycine, taurine and creatine :D

but the MT reps are bragging about Phase8 being BOGO...

cumminslifter
05-28-2013, 05:32 PM
Well at least they aren't padding the protein amount with glycine, taurine and creatine :Dwhat was all that hype with glycine,taurine about?

Health45
05-28-2013, 06:25 PM
He's having 150g which is enough.... What's your point
read carefully what he says on bcca
he's aiming at 300gr roughly total protein but prefers to eat half that +/- and adds 25-30gr pure BCAA in serveral takes he's a professional natural bodybuilder and quite knowledgeable one imho if you read his posts. he truely never talks BS,
very sound fella. as we age, often protein requirements rise, even for elderly people who don't WO, so imagine for a bodybuilder.

also probably one reason is 300gr at his age is a bit too much to handle by the organs. ask him.
also, bcaa are almost directly absorbed by the muscles without requiring much digestive work by the organs.

but again everybody does what he /she wants.
imho a beginner in his mid late teens, or twenties does NOT need complex
supplements, free form AAs: stick to big food diet and some protein powder and or crash gain stuff.
then after a few years, start making it a bit more refined ( IF YOU WANT...), experimented. add creatine for instance etc
step by step. and cycle also. the body gets used to supplements too so OFF periods are good. switching brands etc.

finally this is not to say you have to crazy like the mega dosing BCAA promoted on some threads in the supplements section... (way too much imho).

rgds

PBateman2
05-28-2013, 06:32 PM
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/faculty/guy/bch5045/LehningerBook.jpg

Are you implying one has to actually read?

Nooooooooooooooo.

Gxp23
05-28-2013, 06:49 PM
read carefully what he says on bcca
he's aiming at 300gr roughly total protein but prefers to eat half that +/- and adds 25-30gr pure BCAA in serveral takes he's a professional natural bodybuilder and quite knowledgeable one imho if you read his posts. he truely never talks BS,
very sound fella. as we age, often protein requirements rise, even for elderly people who don't WO, so imagine for a bodybuilder.

also probably one reason is 300gr at his age is a bit too much to handle by the organs. ask him.
also, bcaa are almost directly absorbed by the muscles without requiring much digestive work by the organs.

but again everybody does what he /she wants.
imho a beginner in his mid late teens, or twenties does NOT need complex
supplements, free form AAs: stick to big food diet and some protein powder and or crash gain stuff.
then after a few years, start making it a bit more refined ( IF YOU WANT...), experimented. add creatine for instance etc
step by step. and cycle also. the body gets used to supplements too so OFF periods are good. switching brands etc.

finally this is not to say you have to crazy like the mega dosing BCAA promoted on some threads in the supplements section... (way too much imho).

rgds

so its like he is eating 175g of protein with 25 grams of it coming already in its amino state via supplements?

Health45
05-28-2013, 06:58 PM
as far as I read and he's not alone doing it, he gets about 150-170gr from food and protein powder, and then takes 20-30gr of BCAA powder in several takes. ask him. all in all as if he was taking in 300gr of protein solely from food, that would be around 2.6 lbs of beef or chicken, considering around 25gr of protein in 100gr of beef or chicken).

again there's no "invention" here, it's one approach among others:
- protein from food only
- protein from food and powders (some consider powders as food btw)
- protein from food and powders and free form BCAA

Up to everyone's.

AlwaysTryin
05-28-2013, 11:18 PM
as far as I read and he's not alone doing it, he gets about 150-170gr from food and protein powder, and then takes 20-30gr of BCAA powder in several takes. ask him. all in all as if he was taking in 300gr of protein solely from food, that would be around 2.6 lbs of beef or chicken, considering around 25gr of protein in 100gr of beef or chicken).

again there's no "invention" here, it's one approach among others:
- protein from food only
- protein from food and powders (some consider powders as food btw)
- protein from food and powders and free form BCAA

Up to everyone's.

Why would I care what he does or want to do what he does?

necon76
05-29-2013, 01:08 AM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=150006373&p=987691013#post987691013
read the approach by JerryB
imho he's doing the right thing: less protein but compensate with BCAA.
just saying.
carry on


read carefully what he says on bcca
he's aiming at 300gr roughly total protein but prefers to eat half that +/- and adds 25-30gr pure BCAA in serveral takes he's a professional natural bodybuilder and quite knowledgeable one imho if you read his posts. he truely never talks BS,
very sound fella. as we age, often protein requirements rise, even for elderly people who don't WO, so imagine for a bodybuilder.

also probably one reason is 300gr at his age is a bit too much to handle by the organs. ask him.
also, bcaa are almost directly absorbed by the muscles without requiring much digestive work by the organs.

but again everybody does what he /she wants.
imho a beginner in his mid late teens, or twenties does NOT need complex
supplements, free form AAs: stick to big food diet and some protein powder and or crash gain stuff.
then after a few years, start making it a bit more refined ( IF YOU WANT...), experimented. add creatine for instance etc
step by step. and cycle also. the body gets used to supplements too so OFF periods are good. switching brands etc.

finally this is not to say you have to crazy like the mega dosing BCAA promoted on some threads in the supplements section... (way too much imho).

rgds


That's just one guy's theory.

And just because he's supplementing his intake of 150 with the 30 grams of bcaa he would get from an additional 150 grams of protein, that doesn't net him the equivalent of 300 grams of protein a day, it nets him 180 which brings him to right around 1g/lb.

Terrimonas
05-29-2013, 08:06 AM
what was all that hype with glycine,taurine about?

Many food testing laboratories use the Kjeldahl method to determine the protein content for labeling. The method determines the protein content based upon the total nitrogen content. That means anything containing nitrogen - free form aminos like glycine and taurine, creatine, etc... all contribute to the total nitrogen content and by extension the protein content in addition to any actual protein.

If the ingredients are say (Whey Protein Concentrate, Taurine, Glycine) and the labeled amount of protein is 20 grams, there could be 10 grams of actual protein from the whey protein and the rest could fluffed up with Taurine and Glycine since they contribute to the total nitrogen content also. Using prop blends and adjusting the amounts of the ingredients by reducing the amount of whey and increasing the less expensive aminos, companies can hold the line on product prices to get a competitive advantage in the face of the ever increasing commodity price of whey. It's obviously also misleading since most consumers are not aware of this and they may think they are getting the 20 grams of actual whey protein when in fact they may not be.

braggable
05-29-2013, 10:18 AM
Many food testing laboratories use the Kjeldahl method to determine the protein content for labeling. The method determines the protein content based upon the total nitrogen content. That means anything containing nitrogen - free form aminos like glycine and taurine, creatine, etc... all contribute to the total nitrogen content and by extension the protein content in addition to any actual protein.

If the ingredients are say (Whey Protein Concentrate, Taurine, Glycine) and the labeled amount of protein is 20 grams, there could be 10 grams of actual protein from the whey protein and the rest could fluffed up with Taurine and Glycine since they contribute to the total nitrogen content also. Using prop blends and adjusting the amounts of the ingredients by reducing the amount of whey and increasing the less expensive aminos, companies can hold the line on product prices to get a competitive advantage in the face of the ever increasing commodity price of whey. It's obviously also misleading since most consumers are not aware of this and they may think they are getting the 20 grams of actual whey protein when in fact they may not be.

I'm not a food scientist but I am trained in classical molecular biology techniques. Why can't you use the Braddford method to find out protein concentrations, at least in powders?

cumminslifter
05-29-2013, 12:07 PM
Many food testing laboratories use the Kjeldahl method to determine the protein content for labeling. The method determines the protein content based upon the total nitrogen content. That means anything containing nitrogen - free form aminos like glycine and taurine, creatine, etc... all contribute to the total nitrogen content and by extension the protein content in addition to any actual protein.

If the ingredients are say (Whey Protein Concentrate, Taurine, Glycine) and the labeled amount of protein is 20 grams, there could be 10 grams of actual protein from the whey protein and the rest could fluffed up with Taurine and Glycine since they contribute to the total nitrogen content also. Using prop blends and adjusting the amounts of the ingredients by reducing the amount of whey and increasing the less expensive aminos, companies can hold the line on product prices to get a competitive advantage in the face of the ever increasing commodity price of whey. It's obviously also misleading since most consumers are not aware of this and they may think they are getting the 20 grams of actual whey protein when in fact they may not be.thanks a lot for the explaination

DatMurse
05-29-2013, 12:24 PM
Incorrect.

Each gram of BCAA's contain over 5 calories. Labeling regulations allow them to list the calories as zero.

for educational purposes why would BCAA have 5 instead of 4?

cumminslifter
05-29-2013, 01:21 PM
for educational purposes why would BCAA have 5 instead of 4?because that is their caloric content. they are like 4.8 or so I believe without looking it up

Terrimonas
05-29-2013, 02:18 PM
for educational purposes why would BCAA have 5 instead of 4?

Calories are determined based upon measuring the heat of combustion with some additional adjustments. The Atwater factor "4 kcal/g" is based upon the heat of combustion of a full spectrum amino acid containing protein. But amino acids by themselves have their own heat of combustion. So a protein ends up being basically an average of the heats of combustion of its constituent amino acids where some are higher or lower than the average. The BCAAs are all higher than the average.

For illustration, say glycine is 3 kcal/g and leucine is 6 kcal/g. If you have a protein that is made up of only Leucine, the protein will be 6 kcal/g. If you have a protein that is 50% glycine and 50% leucine, it's going to be somewhere in the middle between 3-6 kcal/g. If you have only free form leucine, it's going to be 6 kcal/g.

WonderPug
05-29-2013, 02:21 PM
because that is their caloric content. they are like 4.8 or so I believe without looking it upIt's over 5 calories, based on the typical ratios in BCAA supplements, I think it's at or over 5.3. See here. (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/52/5/770.full.pdf)

jwelle4
05-29-2013, 02:30 PM
On the same lines, I'm hoping someone will weigh in on the transport threshold for amino acids. Competition amongst the BCAAs for transporters along the basolateral membrane theoretically means that food source BCAAs are more efficiently absorbed than pure form BCAAs (percentage absorbed versus amount consumed), since the food source BCAAs hit the transporters in a staggered fashion with digestion- but what's the max.. how do people account for it?

DatMurse
05-29-2013, 03:25 PM
Calories are determined based upon measuring the heat of combustion with some additional adjustments. The Atwater factor "4 kcal/g" is based upon the heat of combustion of a full spectrum amino acid containing protein. But amino acids by themselves have their own heat of combustion. So a protein ends up being basically an average of the heats of combustion of its constituent amino acids where some are higher or lower than the average. The BCAAs are all higher than the average.

For illustration, say glycine is 3 kcal/g and leucine is 6 kcal/g. If you have a protein that is made up of only Leucine, the protein will be 6 kcal/g. If you have a protein that is 50% glycine and 50% leucine, it's going to be somewhere in the middle between 3-6 kcal/g. If you have only free form leucine, it's going to be 6 kcal/g.


It's over 5 calories, based on the typical ratios in BCAA supplements, I think it's at or over 5.3. See here. (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/52/5/770.full.pdf)

Well thanks for the edumacation

edumacation makes the world go round

snorkelman
05-29-2013, 04:15 PM
On the same lines, I'm hoping someone will weigh in on the transport threshold for amino acids. Competition amongst the BCAAs for transporters along the basolateral membrane theoretically means that food source BCAAs are more efficiently absorbed than pure form BCAAs (percentage absorbed versus amount consumed), since the food source BCAAs hit the transporters in a staggered fashion with digestion- but what's the max.. how do people account for it?

by any chance do you happen to have any citations to any studies addressing this topic? I am not challenging your statement, but rather, honestly interested in reading more on that.

Killshot1
05-29-2013, 04:16 PM
Hoping someone could provide some of the more seminal referenece papers into the use of BCAA's. Wanting to prove their not worth the money.

Cheers

In all of my experiences with BCAA's, I rarely use them. I use them sometimes whilst doing hard, strenious cardio. But that's it. I have noticed a little better recovery using them, while on a caloric deficit, but just a little.

As for a straight BCAA product, not at all worth it IMO. You probably won't even notice a difference on or off them brah

Yoy0
05-29-2013, 04:16 PM
Just an update to this uber dramatic debate:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6147411&page=1

Blast from the past (2007) of a Scivation rep claiming it is indeed 0 calories.

snorkelman
05-29-2013, 04:22 PM
Just an update to this uber dramatic debate:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6147411&page=1

Blast from the past (2007) of a Scivation rep claiming it is indeed 0 calories.

^^^ that "rep" is Marc "The Machine" Lobliner - the former owner.

FYI, he has a lot of garbage out there such as...

FT3iwEburIU

Terrimonas
05-29-2013, 04:23 PM
Just an update to this uber dramatic debate:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6147411&page=1

Blast from the past (2007) of a Scivation rep claiming it is indeed 0 calories.

There is no debate. That is just flat out wrong.

Lemme put this into easy to grasp thought experiment. Does 10 grams of whey protein isolate have 40 Calories or does it have 30 Calories because the BCAA content and calories don't count?

Yoy0
05-29-2013, 04:28 PM
There is no debate. That is just flat out wrong.

Lemme put this into easy to grasp thought experiment. Does 10 grams of whey protein isolate have 40 Calories or does it have 30 Calories because the BCAA content and calories don't count?

I get that, but to bring in some bro-science, aren't BCAA's just broken down forms of protein?

*Puts on anti-neg cloak*

Seriously, I've been lied to =(

Terrimonas
05-29-2013, 04:53 PM
by any chance do you happen to have any citations to any studies addressing this topic? I am not challenging your statement, but rather, honestly interested in reading more on that.

I think she means apical membrane instead of basolateral membrane. Anyway this is a good overview of the topic of intestinal AA transport. That said, a normal dose of free form BCAAs isn't going to saturate transporters to the point that some is not absorbed at all. Much of the BCAAs from food are also going to be absorbed into enterocytes as short di-, tri- and tetra- peptides via PepT1 before final intracellular hydrolysis to free amino acids. PepT1 short peptide absorption is thought to have a kinetic advantage since administering an amino acid as a peptide results in higher blood levels of the amino acid than an equivalent amount of the amino acid in free form monomers.

http://physrev.physiology.org/content/88/1/249.full

BULLandTERRIER
05-29-2013, 05:33 PM
I think she means apical membrane instead of basolateral membrane. Anyway this is a good overview of the topic of intestinal AA transport. That said, a normal dose of free form BCAAs isn't going to saturate transporters to the point that some is not absorbed at all. Much of the BCAAs from food are also going to be absorbed into enterocytes as short di-, tri- and tetra- peptides via PepT1 before final intracellular hydrolysis to free amino acids. PepT1 short peptide absorption is thought to have a kinetic advantage since administering an amino acid as a peptide results in higher blood levels of the amino acid than an equivalent amount of the amino acid in free form monomers.

http://physrev.physiology.org/content/88/1/249.full

I dare you to post this in one of the numerous bull$it BCAA vs. horse$it BCAA thread full of supp. company reps in the supp. section.