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UOFLcards2011
04-15-2013, 11:40 PM
Can you take DAA year round like creatine?

How long of a break do you need after a 10 week run?

Mr.Cooper69
04-16-2013, 12:14 AM
Some people opine that you can. I opine otherwise.

UOFLcards2011
04-16-2013, 12:48 AM
What are/would be the sides of taking it year round like creatine?

Also, how long of a break would you recommend after a 10 week run? 4 week break?

Mr.Cooper69
04-16-2013, 01:01 AM
What are/would be the sides of taking it year round like creatine?

Also, how long of a break would you recommend after a 10 week run? 4 week break?

Unknown neuronal modulation, homeostasis compensation, elevated prolactin and/or estrogen. 4 weeks is good

snorkelman
04-16-2013, 04:24 AM
Is anyone aware of any study longer than 12 days on humans looking at the impact of DAA on luteinizing hormone (LH) and/or testosterone?

The only study of which I am aware is the 2009 study by Topo E, et al. (which was 12 days). So, taking DAA longer than that will have to rely on speculation and anecdotal evidence at this point with regard to long-term safety.

UOFLcards2011
04-16-2013, 09:25 AM
I know creatine was once a supp that many thought HAD to be cycled. Nowadays practically everyone runs it year round, no cycling. I know it's different with DAA being it raises natural T levels and all.

Diesel0022
04-16-2013, 09:28 AM
I ran a 8 week cycle and was severely disappointed. Got the tub for free, ran I3C/L-Dopa alongside it. I didn't notice any negative effects, except that I was wasting my time every morning by adding it to my juice.

snorkelman
04-16-2013, 09:31 AM
I know creatine was once a supp that many thought HAD to be cycled. Nowadays practically everyone runs it year round, no cycling. I know it's different with DAA being it raises natural T levels and all.

I was hoping my question would have drawn some supp reps out of the woodwork and tell us that their company is in the middle of a 6 month study and things "look good so far" or something like that. Until there is long-term studies on DAA (and replicating studies on Topo's findings for that matter) it will never get the wide thumbs up from anyone except supplement company reps. Messing with hormones is not to be taken lightly IMO. Then again, 42% may not be worth getting freaked out about.

jiggamanbill
04-16-2013, 09:53 AM
I was hoping my question would have drawn some supp reps out of the woodwork and tell us that their company is in the middle of a 6 month study and things "look good so far" or something like that. Until there is long-term studies on DAA (and replicating studies on Topo's findings for that matter) it will never get the wide thumbs up from anyone except supplement company reps. Messing with hormones is not to be taken lightly IMO. Then again, 42% may not be worth getting freaked out about.

Even if we ran a 6 month study, it would not be a "validation" for anyone as you would have to do multiple studies on multiple people, etc. The rise in test levels from something natural like DAA, etc is not going to be so much that you will see a huge issue (if any ) of estrogen. You are not adding outside Test to your body, you are simply allowing your body to maximize your natural production.

Every product needs to be cautioned to only take for X amount of time or reccomended for x amount of time... it is a liability issue. Not to mention eveyone reacts differently to everything.

As you can see above, one post said he ran DAA for 8 weeks and was disapointed.... I know many (and have used it myself) that are happy with DAA on its own or added to other natural test boosters.

Personally, if you are allowing your body to get to its natural optimum level of test (again, not adding outside test), there is not an issue... if you were to stay 21 forever, would your natural high level of test cause you issues? Nope

But again, everyone is different, so you cant have one answer for everyone. If you feel you want to cycle it, it is an individual choice. If you personally dont want to cycle it (or choose to cycle it for 6, 7, 8 months) you can always keep an eye on how you are feeling / what sides (if any) you personally are experiencing and alter your course from there.

Mr.Cooper69
04-16-2013, 12:48 PM
Is anyone aware of any study longer than 12 days on humans looking at the impact of DAA on luteinizing hormone (LH) and/or testosterone?

The only study of which I am aware is the 2009 study by Topo E, et al. (which was 12 days). So, taking DAA longer than that will have to rely on speculation and anecdotal evidence at this point with regard to long-term safety.

There's a 3 month human trial noting both longterm safety and a similar increase in T.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&********web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scirp.org%2Fjournal%2FPaperDo wnload.aspx%3FpaperID%3D24016&ei=TTieUPGUEuXD0QHYv4GgBA&usg=AFQjCNGy8VRVFXupdEl1eztide_IK1X2yQ

snorkelman
04-16-2013, 12:51 PM
There's a 3 month human trial noting both longterm safety and a similar increase in T.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&********web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scirp.org%2Fjournal%2FPaperDo wnload.aspx%3FpaperID%3D24016&ei=TTieUPGUEuXD0QHYv4GgBA&usg=AFQjCNGy8VRVFXupdEl1eztide_IK1X2yQ

Yeah, I forgot that sperm study was that long.

kissdadookie
04-16-2013, 01:03 PM
There's a 3 month human trial noting both longterm safety and a similar increase in T.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&********web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scirp.org%2Fjournal%2FPaperDo wnload.aspx%3FpaperID%3D24016&ei=TTieUPGUEuXD0QHYv4GgBA&usg=AFQjCNGy8VRVFXupdEl1eztide_IK1X2yQ

That 90 day study only shown that fertility factors improved as well as sperm quality. As of date, there has been no established ceiling for how long a DAA cycle should be and has of yet been shown to increase estrogen levels or other negative side effects.

Let's put it this way, if it was THAT easy increase prolactin and or estrogen levels in otherwise normal healthy and fit individuals, those on the juice would not be so anabolic and instead be incredibly catabolic. Juicing also increases your test levels by multiple times many times over what DAA has been shown to increase t levels. If it takes such high levels of increased t levels to produce abnormal estrogen and prolactin levels AND having to basically shut down natural t production, DAA really isn't going to have negs to the level of needing to consider having to block things like estrogen production to counter it.

Not saying that the stuff should be used for incredibly prolonged periods but thus far, even with the 90 day trial, a cycle ceiling has yet to be established for the point where it would have considerably negative impact on health or biological functions.

With all that in mind, if one is very out of shape and considerably overweight, should they take DAA or anything that could increase test levels? I would say absolutely NOT. Why? Because in that scenario, the more t you produce the more estrogen your body will convert it into as being considerably overweight leaves you in a very catabolic state.

So why does the instuctions on these test boosters state not to take for more than 8-12 weeks? It's just a precaution because I highly doubt that these supplement companies would really ever bother to fund studies to figure out where the cycle ceilings are for the ingredients. Take for example how most DAA products tells you to do 12 days on, 1 day off. That dosing schedule is completely arbitrary and being based off of that 12 day t level study of DAA.

Mr.Cooper69
04-16-2013, 02:31 PM
That 90 day study only shown that fertility factors improved as well as sperm quality. As of date, there has been no established ceiling for how long a DAA cycle should be and has of yet been shown to increase estrogen levels or other negative side effects.

Let's put it this way, if it was THAT easy increase prolactin and or estrogen levels in otherwise normal healthy and fit individuals, those on the juice would not be so anabolic and instead be incredibly catabolic. Juicing also increases your test levels by multiple times many times over what DAA has been shown to increase t levels. If it takes such high levels of increased t levels to produce abnormal estrogen and prolactin levels AND having to basically shut down natural t production, DAA really isn't going to have negs to the level of needing to consider having to block things like estrogen production to counter it.

Not saying that the stuff should be used for incredibly prolonged periods but thus far, even with the 90 day trial, a cycle ceiling has yet to be established for the point where it would have considerably negative impact on health or biological functions.

With all that in mind, if one is very out of shape and considerably overweight, should they take DAA or anything that could increase test levels? I would say absolutely NOT. Why? Because in that scenario, the more t you produce the more estrogen your body will convert it into as being considerably overweight leaves you in a very catabolic state.

So why does the instuctions on these test boosters state not to take for more than 8-12 weeks? It's just a precaution because I highly doubt that these supplement companies would really ever bother to fund studies to figure out where the cycle ceilings are for the ingredients. Take for example how most DAA products tells you to do 12 days on, 1 day off. That dosing schedule is completely arbitrary and being based off of that 12 day t level study of DAA.

Why do you think estrogen or prolactin are catabolic? That's certainly not the case and their biological functions have absolutely nothing to do with such.

Adverse effects are typically noted in human trials. Seeing as there are none, there are no apparent side effects of 90 days of DAA.

Elliptical Envy
04-16-2013, 02:34 PM
Folks still supplementing with Mucuna and I3C alongside DAA?

kissdadookie
04-16-2013, 02:39 PM
Why do you think estrogen or prolactin are catabolic? That's certainly not the case and their biological functions have absolutely nothing to do with such.

Adverse effects are typically noted in human trials. Seeing as there are none, there are no apparent side effects of 90 days of DAA.

What I was basically trying to say is that if being in a catabolic state promotes estrogen and prolactin production. As can be seen in substantially overweight individuals, the testosterone their body produces is much more prone to converting to estrogen. Thus one of the reasons that the fatter you are the easier it is for you to become fatter so it's a perpetual downward spiral. With that in mind, I'm not saying that it's a proven fact, but theoretically increasing free test levels could lead to increased conversion to estrogen as that is what those body types in that state is prone to do. The fatter you are the more catabolic you are, the more catabolic you are, the more you body will want to convert testosterone into estrogen.

As for there not being any apparent side effects of DAA, yup, that is the case now until someone does a clinical trial to judge what the ceiling for cycle length is (or if there even is one).


Folks still supplementing with Mucuna and I3C alongside DAA?

I will be supplementing mucuna alongside DAA next month when I jump back on the test booster (deciding between going back on Alpha Protocol or Testogen XR. Currently on mucuna on training days (using Resurrect P.M. on the days I train, so it's 3 days on 1 day off then 3 days on etc.).

Mr.Cooper69
04-16-2013, 02:43 PM
What I was basically trying to say is that if being in a catabolic state promotes estrogen and prolactin production. As can be seen in substantially overweight individuals, the testosterone their body produces is much more prone to converting to estrogen. Thus one of the reasons that the fatter you are the easier it is for you to become fatter so it's a perpetual downward spiral. With that in mind, I'm not saying that it's a proven fact, but theoretically increasing free test levels could lead to increased conversion to estrogen as that is what those body types in that state is prone to do.



I will be supplementing mucuna alongside DAA next month when I jump back on the test booster (deciding between going back on Alpha Protocol or Testogen XR).

So if you are fat and getting fatter, that is an anabolic state. A catabolic state would imply weight loss.

And yes, more testosterone = more estrogen, to a limit, at which point gene expression takes over

kissdadookie
04-16-2013, 02:52 PM
So if you are fat and getting fatter, that is an anabolic state. A catabolic state would imply weight loss.

And yes, more testosterone = more estrogen, to a limit, at which point gene expression takes over

I was under the impression that being in a catabolic state was not only strictly about weight loss. It was more of a preference for the body to use muscle mass as an energy source rather than utilize bf as an energy source. An anabolic state would mean that the weight gain will be in LEAN MASS gain not bf gain. Understandably when bulking, you are being more anabolic and will gain some bf but ultimately, you are gaining a good amount of lean mass and your body is obviously not burning off your lean mass to use as fuel.

Mr.Cooper69
04-16-2013, 02:54 PM
I was under the impression that being in a catabolic state was not only strictly about weight loss. It was more of a preference for the body to use muscle mass as an energy source rather than utilize bf as an energy source. An anabolic state would mean that the weight gain will be in LEAN MASS gain not bf gain. Understandably when bulking, you are being more anabolic and will gain some bf but ultimately, you are gaining a good amount of lean mass and your body is obviously not burning off your lean mass to use as fuel.

Anabolism is making bigger compounds from smaller ones. Catabolism is the opposite (+ creation of energy). It's not a tissue-specific phenomenon, despite the lingo that BBers like to use

kissdadookie
04-16-2013, 02:56 PM
Anabolism is making bigger compounds from smaller ones. Catabolism is the opposite (+ creation of energy). It's not a tissue-specific phenomenon, despite the lingo that BBers like to use

Gotcha! Good to know! I see what you were getting at in your original post now.