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View Full Version : Kansas State Does *NOT* Have a Better Offense than Notre Dame



macksimus
11-13-2012, 09:27 AM
TL;DR incoming. Post is for intelligent/analytic people:

Why do so many people think KSU is legit while ND doesn't belong in the NCG? Why is KSU ranked higher than ND? Everyone admits ND's defense is legit (#1 scoring defense in the nation), but they keep saying how ND's offense is so much worse than KSU. I can prove that it's not.


I looked at all of the OFFENSIVE (ST and Defensive points don't count) points KSU/ND has against its opponents and also at their opponents' scoring defense ranking. I also threw out KSU's game against 1-AA Missouri State since their defense can't be ranked against FBS schools (and they are bad for a 1-AA team anyway). Here's what I found:


KSU
52 pts vs. Miami (#89 D)
28 pts vs. North TX (#60 D)
17 pts vs. Oklahoma (#24 D)
56 pts vs. Kansas (#93 D)
27 pts vs. Iowa St (#34 D)
55 pts vs. WVU (#121 D)
48 pts vs. Texas Tech (#62 D)
30 pts vs. OK State (#60 D)
23 pts vs. TCU (#43 D)

ND
43 pts vs. Navy (#49 D)
20 pts vs. Purdue (#76 D)
20 pts vs. Mich St (#11 D)
14 pts vs. Michigan (#17 D)
41 pts vs. Miami (#89 D)
20 pts vs. Stanford (#12 D)
17 pts vs. BYU (#7 D)
30 pts vs. Oklahoma (#24 D)
29 pts vs. Pitt (#35 D)
21 pts vs. BC (#78 D)


KSU average points: 37.33
KSU opponent average D: #65.11

ND average points: 25.4
ND opponent average D: #39.8


KSU vs. Top 50 D:
Top 50 defenses faced: OU (#24), ISU (#34), TCU (#43)
Average rank of Top 50 defenses faced: 33.67
Average poitns scored: 22.33 points

ND vs. Top 50 D:
Top 50 defenses faced: Navy (#49), Mich St (#11), Michigan (#17), Stanford (#12), BYU (#7), OU (#24), Pitt (#35)
Average rank of Top 50 defenses faced: 22.14
Average poitns scored: 24.57 points


KSU/ND vs. Common Opponents
KSU vs Miami (#89 D): 52 pts
ND vs Miami (#89 D): 41 pts

KSU vs OU (#24 D): 17 pts
ND vs OU (#24 D): 30 pts


7 out of ND's 10 opponents have Top 50 scoring defenses. 5 out of ND's 10 opponents have Top 25 scoring defenses. The only top 25 scoring defense KSU has played was OU, and ND outscored KSU by 13 pts against OU.


Case in point: Teams aren't judged by performance against patsies -- they are judged by their performance against other good teams. KSU's defense is decidedly worse than ND's defense. ND's offense is -at minimum- equal to KSU's offense (and this is being generous to KSU).


TL;DR: ND's offense has performed decidedly better vs Top 50 defenses than has KSU.




TL;DR.

scotyg
11-13-2012, 09:32 AM
NDs has also played some pretty bad offenses, while KSU has played some of the best.

so that argument can go both ways

On my phone so I can't really post stats

macksimus
11-13-2012, 09:46 AM
NDs has also played some pretty bad offenses, while KSU has played some of the best.

so that argument can go both ways

On my phone so I can't really post stats


yeah, i dont think anyone outside the state of Kansas would say that KSU has a better defense than ND this year (no stats needed).

gbkxbb
11-13-2012, 10:17 AM
Case and point...teams are judged by ALL of their games...Not just the ones against common opponents, or top 25 teams, but ALL of them. Including 3OT wins against bad teams...

Future24
11-13-2012, 10:23 AM
Notre Dame fans are beyond annoying.

WheyneNewton
11-13-2012, 10:24 AM
Notre Dame fans are beyond annoying.

this. brb need validation from everyone.

BullStampede
11-13-2012, 10:28 AM
Notre Dame fans are beyond annoying.

qft. No one cares. Worry about your last 2 games before you talk about Kansas State.

EMAW
11-13-2012, 10:43 AM
Lol, no. Just no. Kansas State is ranked 10th in YPP (yards per play) with 6.71 and 1st in PPP (points per play) with .67. Just stop.

arian11
11-13-2012, 11:19 AM
Lol at skewing your stats by needing to use points that took ND 3 OTs to obtain because their defense couldn't stop the poverty Pitt offense. All I know is K-State has about 18 more offensive TDs than ND.

scotyg
11-13-2012, 11:21 AM
ND (#1 scoring defense) has played

Oklahoma (#23 scoring offense)
Michigan (#49 scoring offense)
Stanford (#53)
Miami (#63)
BYU (#69)
Purdue (#72)
Pittsburgh (#76)
Navy (#81)
Michigan St (#107)
Boston College (#110)

They still have to play
USC (#21)
Wake Forest (#105)

Overall AVG- 69.083


KSU (#18 scoring defense) has played:

West Virginia (#10 scoring offense)
Oklahoma St (#12)
Texas Tech (#16)
Oklahoma (#23)
TCU (#54)
Miami (#63)
Iowa State (#98)
North Texas (#108)
Kansas (#117)

Still plays-

Baylor (#4 scoring offense)
Texas (#11)'

Overall AVG- 46.9



Like I said, this can go both ways

also, are we gonna act like KSU and that amazing ND defense don't allow the same YPC (3.2) and KSU doesn't force more turnovers (#6 in turnovers forced vs #41) ?

dirtdickens
11-13-2012, 11:22 AM
Lol at skewing your stats by needing to use points that took ND 3 OTs to obtain because their defense couldn't stop the poverty Pitt offense. All I know is K-State has about 18 more offensive TDs than ND.KState also needed a TD in the 4th quarter to beat North Texas. You dont ever here anyone running around here talking about that or the fact that KState just beat TCU(using their 3rd QB) by a lesser margain than ND beat BC last week.

Onita
11-13-2012, 11:26 AM
KState also needed a TD in the 4th quarter to beat North Texas. You dont ever here anyone running around here talking about that or the fact that KState just beat TCU(using their 3rd QB) by a lesser margain than ND beat BC last week.

Kstate was also up 23-0 at the start of the 4th and did nothing in the whole 4th.

scotyg
11-13-2012, 11:27 AM
KState also needed a TD in the 4th quarter to beat North Texas. You dont ever here anyone running around here talking about that or the fact that KState just beat TCU(using their 3rd QB) by a lesser margain than ND beat BC last week.

Boykin missed less then a quarter of play, and he played the entire 2nd half. Patterson even admitted that they gave up trying to throw downfield because we sacked them 6 times.

also lold at just looking at the final score. The game was 23-0 midway through the 4th, TCU didn't score a TD until :40 left in the game after our backup RB fumbled.

Not to mention that boston college is a 2-8 ACC team, while TCU is 6-4 and a very good team





as far as the NT game goes, it is really frustrating as a fan how conservative we play in OOC games. we don't blitz, we play extremely basic coverage, then on offense we only a run a few sets of plays and rarely throw downfield.

Bill actually opened up the playbook against Miami and we crushed them easily.

EMAW
11-13-2012, 11:38 AM
as far as the NT game goes, it is really frustrating as a fan how conservative we play in OOC games. we don't blitz, we play extremely basic coverage, then on offense we only a run a few sets of plays and rarely throw downfield.

Bill actually opened up the playbook against Miami and we crushed them easily.

Exactly. Bill Snyder is not going to show Bob Stoops anything more than "Run right/left, Pass right/left" the week before playing them. That game was not close and Daniel Sams played nearly the whole fourth quarter.

dirtdickens
11-13-2012, 11:40 AM
Boykin missed less then a quarter of play, and he played the entire 2nd half. Patterson even admitted that they gave up trying to throw downfield because we sacked them 6 times.

also lold at just looking at the final score. The game was 23-0 midway through the 4th, TCU didn't score a TD until :40 left in the game after our backup RB fumbled.

Not to mention that boston college is a 2-8 ACC team, while TCU is 6-4 and a very good team





as far as the NT game goes, it is really frustrating as a fan how conservative we play in OOC games. we don't blitz, we play extremely basic coverage, then on offense we only a run a few sets of plays and rarely throw downfield.

Bill actually opened up the playbook against Miami and we crushed them easily.So its alright for youre team, but for Notre Dame to have missed a FG, XP, Kelly coach his second worst game of his ND career and Louis Nix to miss 3/4 of the game =/= acceptable.

Benski9
11-13-2012, 11:45 AM
Ksu works over the big 12 as the conference is charmin soft from a style of play standpoint. Ksu goes hard though. I'd kinda like to see ksu play a 5 game stretch in the B1G or SEC.

scotyg
11-13-2012, 11:46 AM
So its alright for youre team, but for Notre Dame to have missed a FG, XP, Kelly coach his second worst game of his ND career and Louis Nix to miss 3/4 of the game =/= acceptable.

i didn't say the NT game was acceptable, in fact i said it was frustrating

As far as the TCU game goes, that game wasn't close at all. I'm also sorry your team does stupid **** like miss an XP

mustang
11-13-2012, 01:10 PM
It's funny that Kansas St struggled with North Texas and Iowa State. Nobody brings that up, but everybody is so quick to point out that ND struggled vs Pitt.

If you look at the two common opponents ND and K St played...ND outperforms. Its that simple.

scotyg
11-13-2012, 01:21 PM
It's funny that Kansas St struggled with North Texas and Iowa State. Nobody brings that up, but everybody is so quick to point out that ND struggled vs Pitt.

If you look at the two common opponents ND and K St played...ND outperforms. Its that simple.
52-13= 39
41-3= 38

how exactly did ND outperform against Miami?

BullStampede
11-13-2012, 01:22 PM
It's funny that Kansas St struggled with North Texas and Iowa State. Nobody brings that up, but everybody is so quick to point out that ND struggled vs Pitt.

If you look at the two common opponents ND and K St played...ND outperforms. Its that simple.

That is what happens when your fanbase is crying for attention 24/7 and talking down to other programs. No one from KSU has said a word about this team. ND wont stfu for 5 minutes.

AriGhold
11-13-2012, 01:28 PM
Notre Dame fans are beyond annoying.

they haven't been nearly as bad as i would have expected them to be this year


this. brb need validation from everyone.

it's not ND. how many threads have we seen from KSU or A&M fans this season making them out out to be the greatest teams of all time

like that thread last night where KSU fans were arguing that bill snyder is the greatest college football coach of all time

BullStampede
11-13-2012, 01:32 PM
they haven't been nearly as bad as i would have expected them to be this year



it's not ND. how many threads have we seen from KSU or A&M fans this season making them out out to be the greatest teams of all time

like that thread last night where KSU fans were arguing that bill snyder is the greatest college football coach of all time

obvious trolls are obvious. If it isnt a thread made by scotyg or EMAW, ignore.

AriGhold
11-13-2012, 01:34 PM
obvious trolls are obvious. If it isnt a thread made by scotyg or EMAW, ignore.

they didn't make the thread but they were the ones arguing with me that i was ignorant for not thinking so and because barry switzer said he was then he must be.

mophatthedamaja
11-13-2012, 01:37 PM
this is why they play the game













but they probably won't

scotyg
11-13-2012, 01:38 PM
they didn't make the thread but they were the ones arguing with me that i was ignorant for not thinking so and because barry switzer said he was then he must be.

jus sayin, people all over the country think he is one of the best. even people who don't like our school, such as Nebraska or KU fans, think he is amazing


you're one of the few Snyder haters i've ever seen. the only other people ive seen hate on him are the people who think he runs up the score

arian11
11-13-2012, 01:40 PM
KState also needed a TD in the 4th quarter to beat North Texas. You dont ever here anyone running around here talking about that or the fact that KState just beat TCU(using their 3rd QB) by a lesser margain than ND beat BC last week.

Yes but both teams get to play the same about of 4th quarters. But both teams have not played the same amount of total time. Why? Because the ND poverty offense and defense keeps sh!tty teams in games thus going to triple OT and racking up more of certain stats. Why don't you do something like standardize the offensive points to a certain amount of time like 4 quarters and see if that changes anything?


Kstate was also up 23-0 at the start of the 4th and did nothing in the whole 4th.

This. I like how OP didn't put any of this into his research. Why not see how good the offenses and defenses are based on times when the teams actually played and not using garbage time TDs. Just like Oregon pulls up at halftime when they are up 42-0, K-State pulled up when they were up 23-0 in the 4th. I also like how OP threw out games against schools like Missouri State when coming up with his stats for K-State and ND. But he used stats for a team's defensive ranking that is based on every opponent that team faced. Why doesn't OP take out those crappy teams that skew stats like defensive rankings as well? People give FSU sh!t for skewing their defense stat rankings because they play FCS teams. So basically OP half a$$ed the information he brought in from other locations to half a$$ his own stats to try and prove that his poverty offense is as good as Optimus Klein. Yea...no.

AriGhold
11-13-2012, 01:47 PM
jus sayin, people all over the country think he is one of the best. even people who don't like our school, such as Nebraska or KU fans, think he is amazing


you're one of the few Snyder haters i've ever seen

see and then because i don't agree with you i'm now a hater. i said in the thread that what he has done at kansas state has been remarkable. i like the guy, i like his demeanor and his story. i even like the team. but he doesn't have the bling. he hasn't won many big games, and he doesn't have trophies.

mustang
11-13-2012, 01:54 PM
That is what happens when your fanbase is crying for attention 24/7 and talking down to other programs. No one from KSU has said a word about this team. ND wont stfu for 5 minutes.

Crying for attention? How about just trying to get people to realize that there are reasons that ND should be in the championship game (just like there are with the other 2 teams).

Do you read the forums? All the K St fans have been talking **** about ND about how they are not as good as K St, usually with Pitt game being their proof. Look at scotyg's previous posts and come back and try to say that again...

Look at OPs post. Does that look like "crying" or just plain logic and statistics? It looks pretty civil to me. You do realize that a national championship game is in the hinges correct?

THE-BEEF
11-13-2012, 01:54 PM
food for thought

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/55553/10-numbers-to-know-about-kansas-state


Kansas State is the top-ranked team in the BCS Standings for the first time in school history. It’s the first time that a non-SEC school has been ranked first in the BCS Standings since Oregon on Nov. 21, 2010.

Statistically speaking, who are the Kansas State Wildcats? They are a team built on efficiency, attention to detail and a Heisman-worthy quarterback:

1: Collin Klein has accounted for 65.7 percent of Kansas State’s offensive yardage this season and 66 percent (31 of 47) of its offensive touchdowns.

Kansas State This Season
FBS Rank
Avg drive start Own 41 1st
Penalties PG 3.2 T-1st
TO margin +20 T-1st
Opp pts off TO 7 1st
2: Kansas State scores on 53 percent of its possessions, the best rate in FBS. The Wildcats score once every 1.8 offensive drives.

3: The Wildcats have a +20 turnover margin, tied for the best turnover margin in the country with Kent State. Kansas State State has turned the ball over six times and allowed the fewest points off turnovers (7) in FBS.

4: Kansas State is committing 3.2 penalties per game, fewest in the nation.

5: The Wildcats’ average drive starts on its own 41, the best average starting field position in FBS by 4 yards.

6: On the flip side, Kansas State’s opponents’ average drive starts on its own 27. The plus-14 field position differential is the best in the country, 5 yards better than any other team.

7: One reason for Kansas State’s stellar field position is its special teams. The Wildcats rank in the top three in FBS in yards per kick return (29.0) and yards per punt return (23.8).

8: Since the start of last season, Collin Klein has an FBS-best 34 touchdowns on 68 runs in goal-to-go situations, with at least one touchdown in 21 of his 23 games.

9: Klein also has become an accurate passer. He's completing 60 percent of his passes that travel at least 20 yards downfield, up 16.1 percent from last season. By comparison, 2011 Heisman Trophy winner Robert Griffin III completed 50.7 percent of his 20-yard throws last season.

10: Kansas State faces Baylor on Saturday. Baylor is ranked second in passing offense and some have questioned whether the Wildcats can stop their passing attack.

Kansas State has faced four teams currently ranked in the Top 15 in passing offense. These teams averaged more than 300 passing yards per game against Kansas State, but combined for just six passing touchdowns and nine interceptions.

scotyg
11-13-2012, 01:56 PM
see and then because i don't agree with you i'm now a hater. i said in the thread that what he has done at kansas state has been remarkable. i like the guy, i like his demeanor and his story. i even like the team. but he doesn't have the bling. he hasn't won many big games, and he doesn't have trophies.

if you want to measure greatness by trophies alone, thats fine. just letting you know that you are in the minority of this discussion

scotyg
11-13-2012, 01:58 PM
Crying for attention? How about just trying to get people to realize that there are reasons that ND should be in the championship game (just like there are with the other 2 teams).

Do you read the forums? All the K St fans have been talking **** about ND about how they are not as good as K St, usually with Pitt game being their proof. Look at scotyg's previous posts and come back and try to say that again...

Look at OPs post. Does that look like "crying" or just plain logic and statistics? It looks pretty civil to me. You do realize that a national championship game is in the hinges correct?

then i spun some statistics to prove my point. as far as k-state fans go, theres only two of us, me and EMAW (who is a little more emotional/unhinged) . the rest are either trolls or people who legitimately think we're better then ND


theres no need to be upset

jross2021
11-13-2012, 02:00 PM
Petition for people to stop using Miami as an example when comparing these 2 teams. Sick of reading the score over and over.

AriGhold
11-13-2012, 02:00 PM
if you want to measure greatness by trophies alone, thats fine. just letting you know that you are in the minority of this discussion

it's not trophies alone. there are many, many factors. but almost a complete lack of trophies means something.

mustang
11-13-2012, 02:01 PM
then i came back with statistics to prove my point. as far as k-state fans go, theres two of us, me and EMAW (who is a little more emotional/unhinged) . the rest are either trolls or people who legitimately think we're better then ND

Dude, I 100% understand that you can create and argument that K St is better than ND and deserves to be ranked higher. Its sound. But the reason I get so ****ty and annoyed is because you have a large number of people out there who just hate ND because they are ND. I can create just as good of an argument that ND deserves (at least a shot) at the NCG, but these people are idiots and use zero logic and only emotion and are like "zomg I hate Notre Dame they suck almost lost to Pitt". It rustles my jimmies because they act like 2 year olds (not saying u r).

scotyg
11-13-2012, 02:13 PM
Dude, I 100% understand that you can create and argument that K St is better than ND and deserves to be ranked higher. Its sound. But the reason I get so ****ty and annoyed is because you have a large number of people out there who just hate ND because they are ND. I can create just as good of an argument that ND deserves (at least a shot) at the NCG, but these people are idiots and use zero logic and only emotion and are like "zomg I hate Notre Dame they suck almost lost to Pitt". It rustles my jimmies because they act like 2 year olds (not saying u r).

i think a lot of it has to do with Pitt being 1) from the Big East, and 2) Pitt losing to Youngstown State earlier this year

macksimus
11-13-2012, 02:16 PM
Case and point...teams are judged by ALL of their games...Not just the ones against common opponents, or top 25 teams, but ALL of them. Including 3OT wins against bad teams...

harp on that one game all you want, but on the whole, the "anemic" ND offense has performed better against top 50 defenses than the "legit" KSU offense.

it sounds to me like you want to emphasize performance against the worst teams vs performance against the best teams. it's okay to be foolish, just want to understand where you're coming from.


Notre Dame fans are beyond annoying.

ah, so posting stats about your team is annoying? i guess id be less annoying if i just boasted that ND is the greatest without providing any real data to back up my claims, MISC style, amirite?


this. brb need validation from everyone.

just rustling some kansas jimmies, bro.


Lol, no. Just no. Kansas State is ranked 10th in YPP (yards per play) with 6.71 and 1st in PPP (points per play) with .67. Just stop.

against weak defenses. did you even read the OP? inflated stats are inflated. KSU offense looks pedestrian vs decent defenses.


Lol at skewing your stats by needing to use points that took ND 3 OTs to obtain because their defense couldn't stop the poverty Pitt offense. All I know is K-State has about 18 more offensive TDs than ND.

how, exactly, are the stats skewed? i looked at both overall offensive performance and offensive performance against good teams. i didnt skew any numbers.


ND (#1 scoring defense) has played
Overall AVG- 69.083

KSU (#18 scoring defense) has played:
Overall AVG- 46.9

first off, lettuce not forget that the B12 offenses have inflated rankings b/c the nobody in the B12, outside of OU and KSU, play defense. fight it if you want... its true.

and it's true that ND hasn't played a top-20 offense. also, there isn't as much overlap in the defensive rankings as there was in the offensive rankings, so i can't make an indisputable point; i'm not going to argue something i can't back up. I can only look at common opponents. ND performed much better against OU than did KSU. Not to mention, KSU needing an unforced Blake Bell fumble at the 1 yard line to dodge a score and save the win.

The Miami game is a wash, as both defenses performed pretty much the same. I won't count Miami's garbage-time TD against KSU.



also, are we gonna act like KSU and that amazing ND defense don't allow the same YPC (3.2) and KSU doesn't force more turnovers (#6 in turnovers forced vs #41) ?

yeah, ND and KSU allow the same YPC, but ND is also #10 in pass efficiency defense while KSU is #36. that's why ND is #8 in total defense and KSU is #36. ND is an all-around unit.

talk about cherry-picking stats, lol.



Boykin missed less then a quarter of play, and he played the entire 2nd half. Patterson even admitted that they gave up trying to throw downfield because we sacked them 6 times.

also lold at just looking at the final score. The game was 23-0 midway through the 4th, TCU didn't score a TD until :40 left in the game after our backup RB fumbled.

congratulations on your defensive performance against an MWC team with its backup quarterback (yes, Boykin).

Zuus
11-13-2012, 02:25 PM
i would take ND over KSU or Oregon anyday, no homer.

wouldnt take them over Bama though.

KSU is strong team, but they are so reliant on 1 player. Klein is their leading passer and rusher. Denard Robinson had 0 success against irish, i think this game would be same way.

macksimus
11-13-2012, 02:25 PM
Why not see how good the offenses and defenses are based on times when the teams actually played and not using garbage time TDs. Just like Oregon pulls up at halftime when they are up 42-0, K-State pulled up when they were up 23-0 in the 4th.

because this is obviously such an easy stat to objectively discuss. how silly of me. also, KSU couldn't "pull up" in any of its games against the top-50 defenses, because they were close throughout. so this point is invalid pertaining to the OP.


I also like how OP threw out games against schools like Missouri State when coming up with his stats for K-State and ND. But he used stats for a team's defensive ranking that is based on every opponent that team faced. Why doesn't OP take out those crappy teams that skew stats like defensive rankings as well? People give FSU sh!t for skewing their defense stat rankings because they play FCS teams. So basically OP half a$$ed the information he brought in from other locations to half a$$ his own stats to try and prove that his poverty offense is as good as Optimus Klein. Yea...no.

so, where do i stop counting FCS opponents? At the second level, the third, the fourth? terrible argument. overruled.


Look at OPs post. Does that look like "crying" or just plain logic and statistics? It looks pretty civil to me. You do realize that a national championship game is in the hinges correct?

i was actually crying pretty hard, bro. serious... calhexas-sized tears after manziel shoved his *** down Bama's secondary's throat.


Petition for people to stop using Miami as an example when comparing these 2 teams. Sick of reading the score over and over.

seconded.


i think a lot of it has to do with Pitt being 1) from the Big East, and 2) Pitt losing to Youngstown State earlier this year

Pitt was a ****ty game vs a ****ty team. But they are also one of ND's rivals, and as most people know, rivalry games are usually intense. secondly, ND should rightfully be taking some flak for barely escaping, but that one game should not undo all of the other good wins ... especially when other schools in the top 10 have had wins just as ugly

scotyg
11-13-2012, 02:26 PM
harp on that one game all you want, but on the whole, the "anemic" ND offense has performed better against top 50 defenses than the "legit" KSU offense.

it sounds to me like you want to emphasize performance against the worst teams vs performance against the best teams. it's okay to be foolish, just want to understand where you're coming from.



ah, so posting stats about your team is annoying? i guess id be less annoying if i just boasted that ND is the greatest without providing any real data to back up my claims, MISC style, amirite?



just rustling some kansas jimmies, bro.



against weak defenses. did you even read the OP? inflated stats are inflated. KSU offense looks pedestrian vs decent defenses.



how, exactly, are the stats skewed? i looked at both overall offensive performance and offensive performance against good teams. i didnt skew any numbers.



first off, lettuce not forget that the B12 offenses have inflated rankings b/c the nobody in the B12, outside of OU and KSU, play defense. fight it if you want... its true.

and it's true that ND hasn't played a top-20 offense. also, there isn't as much overlap in the defensive rankings as there was in the offensive rankings, so i can't make an indisputable point; i'm not going to argue something i can't back up. I can only look at common opponents. ND performed much better against OU than did KSU. Not to mention, KSU needing an unforced Blake Bell fumble at the 1 yard line to dodge a score and save the win. Officials also overturned an apparent Landry Jones fumble on their own 5 yard line, they ruled it a touch-pass even though there was no receiver there to catch it and he never had possession of it . We can the play "but if" game all we want, it doesn't change the end result

Bell is a douchebag anyways

The Miami game is a wash, as both defenses performed pretty much the same. I won't count Miami's garbage-time TD against KSU.

yeah, ND and KSU allow the same YPC, but ND is also #10 in pass efficiency defense while KSU is #36. that's why ND is #8 in total defense and KSU is #36. ND is an all-around unit.

talk about cherry-picking stats, lol.

congratulations on your defensive performance against an MWC team with its backup quarterback (yes, Boykin).

I'm not trying to argue we have a better defense then ND, but our defense gets nowhere near the credit it deserves




Pitt was a ****ty game vs a ****ty team. But they are also one of ND's rivals, and as most people know, rivalry games are usually intense. secondly, ND should rightfully be taking some flak for barely escaping, but that one game should not undo all of the other good wins ... especially when other schools in the top 10 have had wins just as ugly

Paul Rhoads and Iowa State fans have really been trying to turn our series into a rivalry, and the games have always been close lately. It definitely wasn't the prettiest win, but when ISU had two chances to have a game-winning drive, they went 3 and out the first time and 4 and out the 2nd. our defense played well.

macksimus
11-13-2012, 02:28 PM
two things, scotyg:

1) Bell is a douchebag.
2) KSU does have a good defense.

AriGhold
11-13-2012, 02:33 PM
because this is obviously such an easy stat to objectively discuss. how silly of me. also, KSU couldn't "pull up" in any of its games against the top-50 defenses, because they were close throughout. so this point is invalid pertaining to the OP.



so, where do i stop counting FCS opponents? At the second level, the third, the fourth? terrible argument. overruled.

why did i just get quoted for something i didn't post?

macksimus
11-13-2012, 02:34 PM
why did i just get quoted for something i didn't post?

copy/paste/edit error. will fix.

cman1787
11-13-2012, 02:38 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/feioff2012



http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/feidef2012

BullStampede
11-13-2012, 02:43 PM
Crying for attention? How about just trying to get people to realize that there are reasons that ND should be in the championship game (just like there are with the other 2 teams).

Do you read the forums? All the K St fans have been talking **** about ND about how they are not as good as K St, usually with Pitt game being their proof. Look at scotyg's previous posts and come back and try to say that again...

Look at OPs post. Does that look like "crying" or just plain logic and statistics? It looks pretty civil to me. You do realize that a national championship game is in the hinges correct?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii184/shiloh123_2008/105b0c4f7e6fda03c1431583d1cf859e.gif

Take it easy man. Nobody needs to get hurt.

#Irish2012

dirtdickens
11-13-2012, 02:46 PM
It's funny that Kansas St struggled with North Texas and Iowa State. Nobody brings that up, but everybody is so quick to point out that ND struggled vs Pitt.

If you look at the two common opponents ND and K St played...ND outperforms. Its that simple.This, I havent said a negative thing about KSU. I have said I think they are #1 right now and deserve it. The only thing I hear from Bama, Duck, KSU fans is the PITT game.


i didn't say the NT game was acceptable, in fact i said it was frustrating

As far as the TCU game goes, that game wasn't close at all. I'm also sorry your team does stupid **** like miss an XPND does a lot of frustrating things. Especially with a FR QB and bad special teams. The thing is, theyre all back next year and NDs schedule is immaculate.


Yes but both teams get to play the same about of 4th quarters. But both teams have not played the same amount of total time. Why? Because the ND poverty offense and defense keeps sh!tty teams in games thus going to triple OT and racking up more of certain stats. Why don't you do something like standardize the offensive points to a certain amount of time like 4 quarters and see if that changes anything?how does that change anything? That would skew the numbers. Besides, the two teams play vastly different styles. ND goes for long drawn out drives against the lesser teams like Miami, BC where they may only have 2 possesions in a half. Tressel Ball. Also, ND gets penalized when the defense forces turnovers on short fields. Tons of stuff go into the numbers, so why change them? That would be like excusing KSU's offense for letting the defense win the game against Oklahoma.


i would take ND over KSU or Oregon anyday, no homer.

wouldnt take them over Bama though.

KSU is strong team, but they are so reliant on 1 player. Klein is their leading passer and rusher. Denard Robinson had 0 success against irish, i think this game would be same way.This. Anytime your offense is one player you run the risk of getting shut down by a good defense. While Klein is more versatile than Denard, the same rules apply. Use five guys to make a wall of humanity taking away rushing lanes and the offense is in trouble.

dirtdickens
11-13-2012, 02:49 PM
Notre Dame fans are beyond annoying.If you think its bad now, consider this IF Kansas State loses before a bowl game...........

Notre Dame could win a National Title
Notre Dame could win the Heisman Trophy
Notre Dame will have the highest graduation rate
all in the same season

wildchild11
11-13-2012, 03:26 PM
If you think its bad now, consider this IF Kansas State loses before a bowl game...........

Notre Dame could win a National Title
Notre Dame could win the Heisman Trophy


Wow, sounds like brady quinn all over again. *cough*

EMAW
11-13-2012, 04:35 PM
then i spun some statistics to prove my point. as far as k-state fans go, theres only two of us, me and EMAW (who is a little more emotional/unhinged) . the rest are either trolls or people who legitimately think we're better then ND


theres no need to be upset

There's one I haven't heard before.

EMAW
11-13-2012, 04:40 PM
i would take ND over KSU or Oregon anyday, no homer.

wouldnt take them over Bama though.

KSU is strong team, but they are so reliant on 1 player. Klein is their leading passer and rusher. Denard Robinson had 0 success against irish, i think this game would be same way.

Denard and Klein are not the same player at all. Denard is a great scrambler who is dangerous because he can turn a broken play into a highlight. Denard also makes a lot of dumbass mistakes. Klein's runs are virtually all planned runs/options, and he is virtually error free as a passer.

Trequartista
11-13-2012, 04:55 PM
it's not trophies alone. there are many, many factors. but almost a complete lack of trophies means something.


yeah, it means hes at what was the worst program in college football before he arrived

he didnt have the tradition that certain other programs have that basically self recruits

YellowOnYellow
11-13-2012, 05:00 PM
Op contradicts himself...

Says ND is #1 scoring defense.
Then lists off the FINAL score of each teams game.

scotyg
11-13-2012, 05:02 PM
This. Anytime your offense is one player you run the risk of getting shut down by a good defense. While Klein is more versatile than Denard, the same rules apply. Use five guys to make a wall of humanity taking away rushing lanes and the offense is in trouble.

I think I've heard heard this from every opposing fanbase we've played. IDK how many times I've seen opposing defenses stack 8 or sometimes even 9 in the box and dare Klein to throw it and he ends up torching them deep- part of the reason he has such a high YPA. Oklahoma took the opposite approach and dropped back into coverage and rarely blitzed and Klein dinked-and-dunked against them all game.

If ND could do it, all the power to them, but it hasn't happened yet.



]KSU is strong team, but they are so reliant on 1 player. Klein is their leading passer and rusher. Denard Robinson had 0 success against irish, i think this game would be same way.

he's not our leading rusher

Klein- 748 yds, 19 TDs
Hubert- 783 yds, 12 TDs

Klein is also a much much better passer then Robinson. Klein has thrown 3 INTs all year and the one against TCU was an amazing play by their DE dropping back on a zone blitz. That was his 1st turnover in conference play.

This last game was frustrating because we left a lot of points out there on the field. TCU has a pretty good defense, i think theyre 12th against the run, but Klein was not mentally 100%. Made the wrong read a few times, missed a few open guys, threw an INT. His 34 yard TD run was awfully pretty, though

AriGhold
11-13-2012, 05:29 PM
yeah, it means hes at what was the worst program in college football before he arrived

he didnt have the tradition that certain other programs have that basically self recruits

how long is that excuse going to last? if they lose a game this year, will it be because they were at one time the worst college football program in the country and just the fact that they were in a BCS game is impressive enough?

he has a losing record against ranked opponents. is that because the program was so bad when he got there? or is it because they don't have the resources of a top team? at what point do these excuses become ridiculous?


he has 1 win in 3 big 12 championship games, and that win came 9 years ago. his only BCS win came 15 years ago. he has a losing bowl record and hasn't won a bowl since his return and his last win was in 2002.

macksimus
11-13-2012, 06:21 PM
Op contradicts himself...

Says ND is #1 scoring defense.
Then lists off the FINAL score of each teams game.

lolwut

Poolee32
11-13-2012, 06:45 PM
If you think its bad now, consider this IF Kansas State loses before a bowl game...........

Notre Dame could win a National Title
Notre Dame could win the Heisman Trophy
Notre Dame will have the highest graduation rate
all in the same season

LOL You say that is if ND is immune to losing a game. If anyone in the top 10 is prone to lose another game during regular season play, its Notre Dame.

And they will lose against USC. USC can put up points and Notre Dame has teetered on that brink of choking way too many times against some pretty bad teams. Ask Michigan/BYU/Purdue/Pitt. Notre Dame keeps catching breaks this season, but it will end soon enough.

SoccerMuscle5
11-13-2012, 06:49 PM
This is an interesting debate here actually. Kansas State has Klein who really can throw the ball. They started the year off strong by scoring over 50 points in their very first game which was very impressive. They also can really run the ball. Kansas State has a lot of weapons on the offensive side of the ball. Notre Dame can't be undersold though. They really have a great QB And WRs. They also play pretty good defensive I know we are talking about offensive but defense wins championships.

TranceOfPeace
11-13-2012, 07:00 PM
When you have to pull all those skewed stats out of your ass and write an essay you're admitting you don't have a good argument.

macksimus
11-13-2012, 10:37 PM
When you have to pull all those skewed stats out of your ass and write an essay you're admitting you don't have a good argument.

what, exactly, is skewed about pts scored vs top 50 defenses? pls go.

EMAW
11-13-2012, 11:11 PM
what, exactly, is skewed about pts scored vs top 50 defenses? pls go.

They're just bad, lazy statistics. They don't account for defensive/special teams scoring or triple OT games. They mean nothing in terms of how efficient, therefore effective an offense is.

jeff_vangundy
11-14-2012, 12:03 AM
ive watch KSU, ive watched ND on tv...KSU is better...they have a better qb, they are faster on O...their D is okay...ND's D is overrated

TXAg
11-14-2012, 04:00 AM
BRB OT x3 to get past PITT

Doesn't matter anyways. Both teams are overrated (domer's especially) and would/will get exposed by Oregon and the top third of the SEC.

dirtdickens
11-14-2012, 04:53 AM
LOL You say that is if ND is immune to losing a game. If anyone in the top 10 is prone to lose another game during regular season play, its Notre Dame.

And they will lose against USC. USC can put up points and Notre Dame has teetered on that brink of choking way too many times against some pretty bad teams. Ask Michigan/BYU/Purdue/Pitt. Notre Dame keeps catching breaks this season, but it will end soon enough.

Thats why I wrote could.............

macksimus
11-14-2012, 05:15 AM
They're just bad, lazy statistics. They don't account for defensive/special teams scoring or triple OT games. They mean nothing in terms of how efficient, therefore effective an offense is.

Location: Manhattan
Status: Mad


ive watch KSU, ive watched ND on tv...KSU is better...they have a better qb, they are faster on O...their D is okay...ND's D is overrated

this doesn't sound biased at all. i especially liked the part where your argument was founded on facts.

EMAW
11-14-2012, 12:09 PM
Location: Manhattan
Status: Mad



Location: #3 in the BCS
Status: ****ing irate

Benski9
11-14-2012, 12:29 PM
Location: #3 in the BCS
Status: ****ing irate

EMAW, is sonofdaxjones still around?

EMAW
11-14-2012, 12:29 PM
EMAW, is sonofdaxjones still around?

yep, did he ever post here? He posts a lot on goEMAW