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TTexasTT
08-21-2012, 09:10 PM
Do you feel that velocity of 95+ is almost a must to become a top prospect?
Im watching all these young "pitchers" the Astros are running out (Lyles, Keuchel) and its ovious staight away that these guys will never be strong rotation material and have fastballs toping @ 89-92. It seems that young pitchers need to have a real power fastball to be tagged as a top of the rotation pitcher.

TranceOfPeace
08-21-2012, 09:18 PM
Naw. Madison Bumgarner couldn't even hit 90 mph when the Giants called him up srs.

TTexasTT
08-21-2012, 09:22 PM
Naw. Madison Bumgarner couldn't even hit 90 mph when the Giants called him up srs.
True.. Its very unusual though. Chris Leake doesnt throw hard either.

workoutjunkie94
08-21-2012, 09:26 PM
Jeremy hellickson,madison bumgarner,matt cain,lance lynn,Ian Kennedy,wade miley,jamie Garcia and johnny cueto

Velocity not even once.

jtswjs22
08-21-2012, 09:30 PM
Nah 95 MPH fastball is good to have but you dont need it.. Need to be able to hit 90 consistently with a + curve or your screwed.


But if you can hit high 90s someone will find a spot for you in the MLB



EDIT: BTW, if they play for the astros they probably arent even MLB material let alone top of the rotation material

TTexasTT
08-21-2012, 09:30 PM
Jeremy hellickson,madison bumgarner,matt cain,lance lynn,Ian Kennedy,wade miley,jamie Garcia and johnny cueto

Velocity not even once.
hope youre kidding with half of those names.

workoutjunkie94
08-21-2012, 09:33 PM
hope youre kidding with half of those names.

I took a guess on wade miley and lance lynn lol the other are 87-91 usually nothing special veloxity wise

TTexasTT
08-21-2012, 09:36 PM
I took a guess on wade miley and lance lynn lol the other are 87-91 usually nothing special veloxity wise
Matt Cain has been around for several years and has had a mid 90s fastball. Cueto, Ive seen @97.. Ian Kennedy has had a mid 90s fastball at times too.


EDIT: BTW, if they play for the astros they probably arent even MLB material let alone top of the rotation material
Thats why Im talking about prospects, dip****

TranceOfPeace
08-21-2012, 09:42 PM
Bumgarner and Cain both throw like 91-93

TTexasTT
08-21-2012, 09:44 PM
Bumgarner and Cain both throw like 91-93
Im talking prospects and learning to pitch without having velocity initially.
Cain threw a bit harder 07-08

workoutjunkie94
08-21-2012, 09:45 PM
Matt Cain has been around for several years and has mad a mid 90s fastball. Cueto, Ive seen @97.. Ian Kennedy has had a mid 90s fastball at times too.

Thats why Im talking about prospects, dip****

Scouting reports

matt Cain 90-93
Johny cueto 90-94
Wade miley 89-91
Ian Kennedy 90-93
Madison bumgarner 88-90
Jeremy hellickson 89-91
Jamie Garcia 87-89

I was right

TTexasTT
08-21-2012, 09:46 PM
Scouting reports

matt Cain 90-93
Johny cueto 90-94
Ian Kennedy 90-93

Strong list of PROSPECTS

http://www.redreporter.com/2011/2/28/2013613/scouting-reds-pitchers-johnny-cueto

Cueto has an above-average fastball, averaging 93 mph and occasionally hitting 96 or 97.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1202449-why-are-the-giants-power-pitchers-losing-their-velocity

From 2006 to 2007, Cain’s first two full seasons in the big leagues, he averaged over 93 mph on his fastball, and would routinely hit 95 or 96 on the radar gun.

TranceOfPeace
08-21-2012, 09:48 PM
Im talking prospects and learning to pitch without having velocity initially.
Cain threw a bit harder 07-08

Yeah, Cain use to throw a lot harder.

With Bumgarner, yeah, they drafted him because in high school he threw 95+. And all Giants fans were worried when he couldn't even hit 90 at the beginning of '10 in the minors. Giants fans wanted to trade him for a bat.

He's not the 95 guy anymore but he's in the 90's and more importantly he has everything else you need to be a good pitcher.

workoutjunkie94
08-21-2012, 09:48 PM
Strong list of PROSPECTS

I edited the list.

They were prospects at one point and aren't fireballers and have had great succes so far in there careers.

TranceOfPeace
08-21-2012, 09:50 PM
As far as the OP question, it certainly helps but it isn't necessary IMO. If they have have good fastball movement, can locate it well, and have 2 other + pitches, I think they can still be considered a top prospect.

jtswjs22
08-21-2012, 09:50 PM
Thats why Im talking about prospects, dip****

Ok so whats the question here? Your saying the young Astros guys dont throw hard so they wont be top of the rotation guys or am I missing something?

Then you say you must throw hard to be considered a top spect? Wrong. Throwing hard is obviously a + but there are definitely prospects that dont throw high 90s and are still considered to be top spect

TTexasTT
08-21-2012, 10:00 PM
As far as the OP question, it certainly helps but it isn't necessary IMO. If they have have good fastball movement, can locate it well, and have 2 other + pitches, I think they can still be considered a top prospect.


Yeah, Cain use to throw a lot harder.

With Bumgarner, yeah, they drafted him because in high school he threw 95+. And all Giants fans were worried when he couldn't even hit 90 at the beginning of '10 in the minors. Giants fans wanted to trade him for a bat.

He's not the 95 guy anymore but he's in the 90's and more importantly he has everything else you need to be a good pitcher.
tbh Im shocked at how well hes done without the heat. I guess the point Im trying to make is that secondary pitches can be developed while velocity cant be taught. Seems that most pitchers that have aged but still had sucess while losing velocity had it at one time. This is something that makes me think that the freak will still be a impact pitcher.

Greg1983
08-21-2012, 10:05 PM
Hultzen's velocity is nothing special and hes high on most lists.

0starine
08-21-2012, 10:10 PM
Dylan Bundy has velocity AND he can actually pitch.

PhiGreens
08-21-2012, 10:23 PM
Dylan Bundy has velocity AND he can actually pitch.

This is relevant..

And Cueto definitely throws hard.. I saw him pitch in CBP last year and he was hitting atleast 96 like the OP said

Shiden11
08-21-2012, 10:30 PM
I don't think 95+ is a must but it helps a lot. I think pitchers with lower velocity have to be better pitchers (location, pitch selection, etc). Greg Maddux is probably one of the top five pitchers of all time and he was under 95.

in4thelulz
08-21-2012, 10:33 PM
Lance Lynn usually throws between 94-96.

Also, look at guys like Livan Hernandez, Randy Wolf, etc. They don't throw hard at allllllll, but they're still in the league because they can mix up there pitches well. Also, movement can be > velocity.

TTexasTT
08-21-2012, 10:39 PM
I don't think 95+ is a must but it helps a lot. I think pitchers with lower velocity have to be better pitchers (location, pitch selection, etc). Greg Maddux is probably one of the top five pitchers of all time and he was under 95.
Again, Maddox had a strong fastball when he began his career.


Lance Lynn usually throws between 94-96.

Also, look at guys like Livan Hernandez, Randy Wolf, etc. They don't throw hard at allllllll, but they're still in the league because they can mix up there pitches well. Also, movement can be > velocity.
Both of those guys threw hard at one time and struggle now.

GameChanger7
08-21-2012, 10:48 PM
95+ no way is a must to be a top prospect. But 91+ sounds about right with a godly uncle charlie and top notch accuracy.

jaySWAG
08-21-2012, 10:49 PM
Do you feel that velocity of 95+ is almost a must to become a top prospect?
Im watching all these young "pitchers" the Astros are running out (Lyles, Keuchel) and its ovious staight away that these guys will never be strong rotation material and have fastballs toping @ 89-92. It seems that young pitchers need to have a real power fastball to be tagged as a top of the rotation pitcher.

maddux was never a 95 mph guy. velocity does give a pitcher more chances to succeed because of the velocity but velocity isnt everything

jaySWAG
08-21-2012, 10:50 PM
Naw. Madison Bumgarner couldn't even hit 90 mph when the Giants called him up srs.

well bumgarner is anywhere from 89-94 at times, mostly 92-93 but hes a lefty and throws across his body so hes hard to see for batters

jaySWAG
08-21-2012, 10:53 PM
when cain first came up he was 95 mph plus pitcher but hes more comfortable throwing a 2 seemer at 92

throwing with less velocity has improved his control. he can still get it up to 94 when he needs it

bn7
08-21-2012, 10:54 PM
Left handers can get away with only throwing 89-91 ish, but most right handers need to throw in the 91-94 range. But beyond that they all need a legit swing and miss plus pitch or two, & have to be able to command said pitches to ever be top of the rotations starters.

taxe91
08-21-2012, 11:34 PM
Lance Lynn usually throws between 94-96.

Also, look at guys like Livan Hernandez, Randy Wolf, etc. They don't throw hard at allllllll, but they're still in the league because they can mix up there pitches well. Also, movement can be > velocity.

Agree with the idea except Hernandez and wolf are both garbage. Cliff lee is another good example though

LostOne287
08-21-2012, 11:47 PM
Hultzen's velocity is nothing special and hes high on most lists.

Came in thread to say this. He tops out at about 91-92, but his secondary stuff/location is spot on.

TTexasTT
08-21-2012, 11:50 PM
Came in thread to say this. He tops out at about 91-92, but his secondary stuff/location is spot on.
Warning signs of Jordan Lyles Syndrome

thefederalist
08-21-2012, 11:55 PM
why is a hard fastball important?

see: the ups and downs of phil hughes

taxe91
08-21-2012, 11:56 PM
Warning signs of Jordan Lyles Syndrome

It's a good thing, his success as a pitcher will last longer. Look what's happening to Beckett now that he can't reach back for that 97mph fastball when he's stuck in 2-0 and 3-0 counts

Zylantypic
08-22-2012, 02:25 AM
Nothing annoys me more than a player with such good velocity but horrible command. Can't throw friggin strikes and always nibbles around the plate like a bitch, the second they through 90+ down the middle it's an XBH or a homer.

Control, a command of a pitch that they can use on the regular when things get rocky, Location than lastly Velocity is what a pitcher needs to succeed in the bigs. Too many phaggots throwing 95 mph with no control in this league, it's ****ing annoying.

Nowadays kids in HS can throw 90+..doesn't ****ing matter.

Greg1983
08-22-2012, 03:18 AM
Nothing annoys me more than a player with such good velocity but horrible command. Can't throw friggin strikes and always nibbles around the plate like a bitch, the second they through 90+ down the middle it's an XBH or a homer.

Control, a command of a pitch that they can use on the regular when things get rocky, Location than lastly Velocity is what a pitcher needs to succeed in the bigs. Too many phaggots throwing 95 mph with no control in this league, it's ****ing annoying.

Nowadays kids in HS can throw 90+..doesn't ****ing matter.

If it doesn't matter then junkballers with great command like Derek Lowe would be useful as anything more than an innings eater.

Zylantypic
08-22-2012, 03:21 AM
If it doesn't matter then junkballers with great command like Derek Lowe would be useful as anything more than an innings eater.
Except Derek Lowe is horrible.

Totally irrelevant to what I'm saying.

Greg1983
08-22-2012, 06:42 AM
Except Derek Lowe is horrible.

Totally irrelevant to what I'm saying.

He's horrible because everything he throws is in the 80s. He locates his pitches well and his sinker has good movement, so if velocity doesn't matter he'd be a pretty good starter.

JM2412
08-22-2012, 07:17 AM
Like someone else said, velocity is more important for RHP.

General rule of thumb for RHP:

1. If you're <6 ft.
2. Throw <90 mph

You won't be pitching in the bigs.

LHP prospects can still be highly regarded even if they don't throw in the mid 90's.

Legsneedwork
08-22-2012, 08:19 AM
Lots of factors here. A guy who throws 92 with a 79 mph change can be an extremely effective pitcher. But a guy who throws 92 and doesn't have another pitch is garbage. Any player in MLB can time a fastball. Height of the pitcher matters, too. A 6'8" guy throwing 92 will have a much higher velocity as the ball approaches the hitter than, say, Roy Oswalt.

And Cueto is almost always in the 92-94 range, even though he can hit 97. He's also a much better pitcher now that he doesn't try to throw so hard. I've watched enough of his games over the last few years to know the guy pretty well.

Realism
08-22-2012, 08:35 AM
Like someone else said, velocity is more important for RHP.

General rule of thumb for RHP:

1. If you're <6 ft.
2. Throw <90 mph

You won't be pitching in the bigs.

LHP prospects can still be highly regarded even if they don't throw in the mid 90's.

Very true. I think some people in this thread are confusing being touted as an ace prospect with being an ace. Most pitchers that crack the top 10 throw gas.

I think velocity matters a lot but great command and secondary offerings matter. If a prospect has a great change up, they really don't need to throw gas to be effective. Clay Buchholz, when he was a prospect, was highly touted (I believe he was the #4 prospect in the country at one point) and his fastball sat at 91-94 MPH but he could dial it up when he needed to but scouts viewed his secondary offerings highly. Granted, he is still trying to live up to his hype as a prospect.

But I do think that fastball velocity separates prospects that are speculated to have ace potential from #2 and #3 starters. I'm pretty sure Jered Weaver never broke the top 50 in Baseball America's top 100 but he's been one of the best pitchers in baseball since he entered the league. Scouts love fastball velocity. Obviously they don't rank all flame throwers as great prospects but their ceilings as viewed as higher because they can miss bats. You can crack the top 10 or 20 without throwing gas but guys like Homer Bailey, Chapman, David Price, Strasburg, Neftali Felix, Kershaw, Verlander, Chamberlin, etc are more common than guys like Bumgarner, Buchholz and Hellickson.

melanimal_old
08-22-2012, 08:55 AM
Jordan Lyles is young. Too young to be up in the MLB. Was actually a top 50 prospect. Prospect lists are mostly based on ceiling and not proximity. A guy who throws hard will always project higher. You cannot be talking about Hultzen because he is left handed.

4thelvofthegme
08-22-2012, 09:16 AM
no ones mentioned ra dickey.

all a fast fastball means is that hitters have less time to react. starsburg wasnt the prospect he was because he throws so hard. he had great command and 2 secondary pitches. the speed helps but there are a decent number of guys in the minors who throw 100 mph.

id take the junkball pitchers, especially the sinkerballers. usually less of an injury risk and can get deeper into games without racking up the high number of pitches

Bucher15
08-22-2012, 09:51 AM
Location, location, location. Who cares if you throw 95+ if you can't locate it.

DA_MOSS
08-22-2012, 10:03 AM
no ones mentioned ra dickey.

all a fast fastball means is that hitters have less time to react. starsburg wasnt the prospect he was because he throws so hard. he had great command and 2 secondary pitches. the speed helps but there are a decent number of guys in the minors who throw 100 mph.

id take the junkball pitchers, especially the sinkerballers. usually less of an injury risk and can get deeper into games without racking up the high number of pitches

I highly doubt there are a decent amount of guys that throw 100..

Stras is so good because he has electric stuff, including his fastball.. Do you think he would be as dominant as he is if he only threw 89-91? No, he wouldn't.. Hitters have to prepare for 97+, thus making it damn near impossible to hit his off speed stuff when he locates.

Scouts will always eye towards velocity 1st.. You can help/teach kids to throw strikes and spot up. With a few exceptions, can't really teach someone how to throw 95+ if they can't already..

cor030
08-22-2012, 10:47 AM
I highly doubt there are a decent amount of guys that throw 100..

Stras is so good because he has electric stuff, including his fastball.. Do you think he would be as dominant as he is if he only threw 89-91? No, he wouldn't.. Hitters have to prepare for 97+, thus making it damn near impossible to hit his off speed stuff when he locates.

Scouts will always eye towards velocity 1st.. You can help/teach kids to throw strikes and spot up. With a few exceptions, can't really teach someone how to throw 95+ if they can't already..

Stras actually sits around 95 now. I'm not sure I've seen him hit 100mph once this season. He was hitting 97 regularly last night but that's about as high as he'll go now. Pretty crazy considering he was hitting 100mph all the damn time in his rookie year.

drat456
08-24-2012, 11:12 AM
do you feel that velocity of 95+ is almost a must to become a top prospect?
Im watching all these young "pitchers" the astros are running out (lyles, keuchel) and its ovious staight away that these guys will never be strong rotation material and have fastballs toping @ 89-92. It seems that young pitchers need to have a real power fastball to be tagged as a top of the rotation pitcher.


greg maddux

TTexasTT
08-24-2012, 11:14 AM
greg maddux
Thanks for reading the thread, dip****.
but again, Maddux had a respectable fastball in his early years.

drat456
08-24-2012, 11:29 AM
Thanks for reading the thread, dip****.
but again, Maddux had a respectable fastball in his early years.


No need for the language lol

bradroepke
08-24-2012, 11:30 AM
baseball is shifting more towards power pitching every year