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BB4239
07-24-2012, 12:28 PM
I'm currently in the process of reading this book and have a few questions regarding protein requirements. I will highlight some of the phrases and sentences that seem to contradict the common Bodybuilding ideals of protein intake. Please keep short opinions to yourselves so we can have a formal discussion about the general guidelines for optimal health and growth regarding protein nutrition. Referring to research articles, studies, books and other sources would help give us a better perspective.

So Let's start.

"The World Health Organization estimates that we need 4.5 percent of tool calories from protein, while the U.S. National Research Council adds a safety margin and regards 8 percent as adequate for 95 percent of the population. The World Health Organization builds in a safety margin and recommends around 10 percent of total calories from protein, or about 35 grams of protein a day. The estimated average daily requirement, according to the UK Department of Health, is 36 grams for women and 44 grams for men. If the quality of protein is high, less needs to be eaten. At the other end of the spectrum are very high-protein diets, unwisely recommended for weight loss. These often contain 100 to 200 grams of protein a day. This is much too high."

"Most people are in more danger of eating too much protein than too little. Excess protein is a contributor to osteoporosis, over acidity, and many other common health problems. Protein-rich foods, including calcium-packed dairy foods, produce acid when broken down (or metabolized) by your body. But we cannot tolerate substantial changes in the pH of blood, so our bodies neutralize or "buffer" this effect through two main alkaline agents; sodium and calcium. When body reserves of sodium are used up, calcium is taken from the bone. Therefore, the more protein you eat, the more calcium you lose.

"Protein is acidic. Too much in the blood has to be neutralized. The Nurses' Health Study recently found that women who consumed 3.1 oz. (95g) of protein a day compared with those who consumed less than 2.2 oz. (68g) a day had a 22 percent greater risk of forearm fractures."

"Consumption of a low-carb/high-protein diet for six weeks delivers a marked acid load to the kidneys, increases the risk for stone formation, decreases estimated calcium balance, and may increase the risk for bone loss." Said Dr. Shalini T. Reddy from the University of Chicago, who conducted a six-week study on ten healthy adults on a low-carb diet. Volunteers lost an average of 9 pounds (that's 1.5 pounds per week), but most developed ketones; compounds that are formed when the body uses its own fat as fuel and can raise acid levels in the blood. Acid excretion, a marker of acid levels in the blood, rose by 90 percent in some volunteers. There was also a sharp rise in urinary calcium levels during the diet despite only a slight decrease in calcium intake. Urinary citrate, a compound that inhibits kidney stone formation, decreased. While it is not clear from the study whether bone mass was affected, the findings indicate that such diets may increase the risk of bone loss over the long term.


This last one is more suited for Bodybuilding:

Entitled: "The meat muscle myth"

"Whether you eat steak, in which 52 percent of the calories come from protein, or spinach, in which 49 percent of the calories come from protein, surely you need more to make strong muscles. According to Dr. Michael Colgan, Sylvester Stallone's former nutritionist and adviser to many U.S. Olympic athletes, this is a myth. He points out that, with hard training, the maximum amount of extra muscle you could build in a year would be less than 8 lb. (3.6 kg). That represents a gain of 2.5 oz. (70g) a week, or 0.3 oz. (9.5g) a day. Muscle is only 22 percent protein, so an increased consumption of less than a tenth of an ounce, or 2.8g a day, equivalent to a quarter of a teaspoonful, is all that is needed to bring about the greatest possible muscle gain. So instead of loading in unnecessary protein, which taxes the body more than it helps it, follow the rules of optimum nutrition to ensure that you make proper use of the protein in your diet."

snorkelman
07-24-2012, 01:03 PM
http://i49.tinypic.com/2mcyg7.jpg

^^ That should be enough of a red flag to make you stop an impulse buy.

BB4239
07-25-2012, 01:57 PM
It definitely was an impulse buy, but I'm not going to discredit all of the info in the book. There is still plenty of consistent and accurate information. But can you refute any of the points mentioned? or even recommend a good book on nutrition? Appreciate it.

SwoleMe
07-25-2012, 03:14 PM
Girth control

tden99
07-25-2012, 03:27 PM
It definitely was an impulse buy, but I'm not going to discredit all of the info in the book. There is still plenty of consistent and accurate information. But can you refute any of the points mentioned? or even recommend a good book on nutrition? Appreciate it.

I can safely say that the part about osteoporosis, and "over-acidity" which I am going to assume he means acidosis, has no studies to back it. Also, acidosis will not happen as the excess urea is easily secreted. Also for the excess ketones part that is low carb and not high protein. That being said please refer to all of the people doing keto who have studies.

Alan Aragon has tons of studies about this stuff though and I believe Ian Mccarthy is currently researching the protein needs of athletes. So far though most point to maximal gains to be around .8 or so lbs/lbm.

Ghosting
07-25-2012, 03:45 PM
But can you refute any of the points mentioned?


http://i49.tinypic.com/2mcyg7.jpg

^^ That should be enough of a red flag to make you stop an impulse buy.


Anything he wrote beyond Snorkelmans highlight, just became invalid.

tden99
07-25-2012, 03:50 PM
Anything he wrote beyond Snorkelmans highlight, just became invalid.
Wait but I'm O+ so I should avoid all shellfish and pork products

Ghosting
07-25-2012, 03:51 PM
Wait but I'm O+ so I should avoid all shellfish and pork products

lol

BB4239
07-25-2012, 09:50 PM
Girth control


I can safely say that the part about osteoporosis, and "over-acidity" which I am going to assume he means acidosis, has no studies to back it. Also, acidosis will not happen as the excess urea is easily secreted. Also for the excess ketones part that is low carb and not high protein. That being said please refer to all of the people doing keto who have studies.

Alan Aragon has tons of studies about this stuff though and I believe Ian Mccarthy is currently researching the protein needs of athletes. So far though most point to maximal gains to be around .8 or so lbs/lbm.

I've read Alan Aragon's posts around the forum, he seems very intelligent on the topic. I'll most likely get his book one of these days. There is just a lot of contradictory information in the field of nutrition and it seems that the balance is shifted in the favor of fallacies. Thanks for the heads up.

Ghosting
07-25-2012, 10:35 PM
There is just a lot of contradictory information in the field of nutrition and it seems that the balance is shifted in the favor of fallacies.


It took me months to fully accept what Alan & Lyle were saying. I can relate. :)

alan aragon
07-25-2012, 10:37 PM
I'm currently in the process of reading this book and have a few questions regarding protein requirements. I will highlight some of the phrases and sentences that seem to contradict the common Bodybuilding ideals of protein intake. Please keep short opinions to yourselves so we can have a formal discussion about the general guidelines for optimal health and growth regarding protein nutrition. Referring to research articles, studies, books and other sources would help give us a better perspective.

So Let's start.

"The World Health Organization estimates that we need 4.5 percent of tool calories from protein, while the U.S. National Research Council adds a safety margin and regards 8 percent as adequate for 95 percent of the population. The World Health Organization builds in a safety margin and recommends around 10 percent of total calories from protein, or about 35 grams of protein a day. The estimated average daily requirement, according to the UK Department of Health, is 36 grams for women and 44 grams for men. If the quality of protein is high, less needs to be eaten. At the other end of the spectrum are very high-protein diets, unwisely recommended for weight loss. These often contain 100 to 200 grams of protein a day. This is much too high."

"Most people are in more danger of eating too much protein than too little. Excess protein is a contributor to osteoporosis, over acidity, and many other common health problems. Protein-rich foods, including calcium-packed dairy foods, produce acid when broken down (or metabolized) by your body. But we cannot tolerate substantial changes in the pH of blood, so our bodies neutralize or "buffer" this effect through two main alkaline agents; sodium and calcium. When body reserves of sodium are used up, calcium is taken from the bone. Therefore, the more protein you eat, the more calcium you lose.

"Protein is acidic. Too much in the blood has to be neutralized. The Nurses' Health Study recently found that women who consumed 3.1 oz. (95g) of protein a day compared with those who consumed less than 2.2 oz. (68g) a day had a 22 percent greater risk of forearm fractures."

"Consumption of a low-carb/high-protein diet for six weeks delivers a marked acid load to the kidneys, increases the risk for stone formation, decreases estimated calcium balance, and may increase the risk for bone loss." Said Dr. Shalini T. Reddy from the University of Chicago, who conducted a six-week study on ten healthy adults on a low-carb diet. Volunteers lost an average of 9 pounds (that's 1.5 pounds per week), but most developed ketones; compounds that are formed when the body uses its own fat as fuel and can raise acid levels in the blood. Acid excretion, a marker of acid levels in the blood, rose by 90 percent in some volunteers. There was also a sharp rise in urinary calcium levels during the diet despite only a slight decrease in calcium intake. Urinary citrate, a compound that inhibits kidney stone formation, decreased. While it is not clear from the study whether bone mass was affected, the findings indicate that such diets may increase the risk of bone loss over the long term.


This last one is more suited for Bodybuilding:

Entitled: "The meat muscle myth"

"Whether you eat steak, in which 52 percent of the calories come from protein, or spinach, in which 49 percent of the calories come from protein, surely you need more to make strong muscles. According to Dr. Michael Colgan, Sylvester Stallone's former nutritionist and adviser to many U.S. Olympic athletes, this is a myth. He points out that, with hard training, the maximum amount of extra muscle you could build in a year would be less than 8 lb. (3.6 kg). That represents a gain of 2.5 oz. (70g) a week, or 0.3 oz. (9.5g) a day. Muscle is only 22 percent protein, so an increased consumption of less than a tenth of an ounce, or 2.8g a day, equivalent to a quarter of a teaspoonful, is all that is needed to bring about the greatest possible muscle gain. So instead of loading in unnecessary protein, which taxes the body more than it helps it, follow the rules of optimum nutrition to ensure that you make proper use of the protein in your diet."I'm impressed with this rich load of bollocks.

Bramble
07-26-2012, 03:11 AM
I'm impressed with this rich load of bollocks.

so how much protein should the average weight lifter be taking?

srs

StackingPlates
07-26-2012, 06:59 AM
so how much protein should the average weight lifter be taking?

srs

Part One:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFObr7rc1kA

Part Two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Heoo4bXw8Tk

Everything you wanted to know about PRO but were afraid to ask...

Bramble
07-26-2012, 08:25 AM
Part One:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFObr7rc1kA

Part Two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Heoo4bXw8Tk

Everything you wanted to know about PRO but were afraid to ask...

brb watching 2 1/2 hours of youtube for a simple answer...

StackingPlates
07-26-2012, 09:19 AM
It all comes down to whether he wants to actually learn or be spoon fed? :)

Besides, how can you not want to stare at Alan for two hours?

Scruffy77
07-26-2012, 10:37 AM
1gram of protein per lb of body weight. some people like to go slightly above just for the fact they would rather have too much rather than 2 little.... those are your youtube cliffs

JasonDB
07-26-2012, 11:44 AM
brb watching 2 1/2 hours of youtube for a simple answer...

Those sets of videos answer most questions regarding protein intake that you are likely to come up with your own in regards to bodybuilding or athletic goals by specialists in the field with legitimate credentials and real life experience discussing all available current peer reviewed data on the subject. If interested in the subject it is 2.5 hours well spent.


1gram of protein per lb of body weight. some people like to go slightly above just for the fact they would rather have too much rather than 2 little.... those are your youtube cliffs

For bulking... for cutting the number is 2.4g/kg of body weight in lean athletes seeking maximum presurvation of lbm in a caloric deficit. It appears less protein is needed for optimal gains in mucle mass in a caloric surplus than is needed for muscle preservation in a deficit.

alan aragon
07-26-2012, 12:14 PM
brb watching 2 1/2 hours of youtube for a simple answer...Negged for interrupting an adult conversation with nonsense.

And for being Bramtroll.

Also, and more seriously, choosing to settle for memorizing soundbites when given the opportunity to learn the depth of information shows a gross propensity toward ignorance. Get your mind right. Oh wait, I forgot you just like to troll the nutrition forum from time to time.

SwoleMe
07-26-2012, 12:23 PM
Negged for interrupting an adult conversation with nonsense.

And for being Bramtroll.

Also, and more seriously, choosing to settle for memorizing soundbites when given the opportunity to learn the depth of information shows a gross propensity toward ignorance. Get your mind right. Oh wait, I forgot you just like to troll the nutrition forum from time to time.

1 of biggest troll in nutrition from my lurk!

Always post in MISC mainly he do

JasonDB
07-26-2012, 12:24 PM
Negged for interrupting an adult conversation with nonsense.

And for being Bramtroll.

Also, and more seriously, choosing to settle for memorizing soundbites when given the opportunity to learn the depth of information shows a gross propensity toward ignorance. Get your mind right. Oh wait, I forgot you just like to troll the nutrition forum from time to time.

Alan... any flaws in my cliffs of the video(s)? It was 2.4g/kg when cutting wasn't it?

Also I have a better Bane avi than you... you 'mirin?

alan aragon
07-26-2012, 12:29 PM
Jason, your cliffs were great. Tried to rep you for the new avi, but you're still on spread.

StackingPlates
07-26-2012, 12:32 PM
Also I have a better Bane avi than you... you 'mirin?

You need to get a mask...srs.

Bramble
07-26-2012, 12:36 PM
Also, and more seriously, choosing to settle for memorizing soundbites when given the opportunity to learn the depth of information shows a gross propensity toward ignorance..

lol wut? how many questions can there be about protein? obviously not 2 1/2 hours worth. stop trying to over complicate protein intake

alan aragon
07-26-2012, 12:48 PM
lol wut? how many questions can there be about protein? obviously not 2 1/2 hours worth. stop trying to over complicate protein intakeYou are one of the very small handful of returning trolls in this section. Go back to the Misc, they are more welcoming to trolls there.

BB4239
07-30-2012, 11:14 AM
Very interesting. Thanks for making and posting the videos.

I have a question though Alan. When dropping from around 12% BF to single digits while maintaining a 300-500 calories deficit with a Protein consumption of around 2.2-2.6g/kg, does rep range & weight load play any significance in maintaining lean body mass while reducing body fat?

For example, we know that reducing BF with an aggressive calorie deficit can be detrimental to LBM, same is true if one only follows a strictly aerobic exercise program with no resistance training. Also, as you have mentioned in the first video, that a lower intake of protein like the RDA's case is not optimal for maintaining LBM. I was just wondering if you know of any studies that have been conducted on the basis of weight load and rep range.

Simply put, should a person follow the same weight lifting program for both "Bulking" and "Cutting"?

Bramble
07-30-2012, 12:44 PM
Very interesting. Thanks for making and posting the videos.

I have a question though Alan. When dropping from around 12% BF to single digits while maintaining a 300-500 calories deficit with a Protein consumption of around 2.2-2.6g/kg, does rep range & weight load play any significance in maintaining lean body mass while reducing body fat?

For example, we know that reducing BF with an aggressive calorie deficit can be detrimental to LBM, same is true if one only follows a strictly aerobic exercise program with no resistance training. Also, as you have mentioned in the first video, that a lower intake of protein like the RDA's case is not optimal for maintaining LBM. I was just wondering if you know of any studies that have been conducted on the basis of weight load and rep range.

Simply put, should a person follow the same weight lifting program for both "Bulking" and "Cutting"?

dude watch the video. choosing to settle for memorizing soundbites when given the opportunity to learn the depth of information shows a gross propensity toward ignorance..

BB4239
08-02-2012, 11:38 AM
dude watch the video. choosing to settle for memorizing soundbites when given the opportunity to learn the depth of information shows a gross propensity toward ignorance..

I watched both videos. My question is regarding exercise and not nutrition.

tden99
08-02-2012, 11:53 AM
Very interesting. Thanks for making and posting the videos.

I have a question though Alan. When dropping from around 12% BF to single digits while maintaining a 300-500 calories deficit with a Protein consumption of around 2.2-2.6g/kg, does rep range & weight load play any significance in maintaining lean body mass while reducing body fat?

For example, we know that reducing BF with an aggressive calorie deficit can be detrimental to LBM, same is true if one only follows a strictly aerobic exercise program with no resistance training. Also, as you have mentioned in the first video, that a lower intake of protein like the RDA's case is not optimal for maintaining LBM. I was just wondering if you know of any studies that have been conducted on the basis of weight load and rep range.

Simply put, should a person follow the same weight lifting program for both "Bulking" and "Cutting"?

I asked the same thing a while back and most said that whatever works best in bulking will also be best in cutting. Although you can also do similar things to UD2.0 and have glycogen depleting workouts.